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Maybe its time we did shut this down.
What? car engine?? truck engine?? This is why Toyota uses the same V8 in the Tundra as the Lexus?? or Honda now uses the 2.4 in the new Accord?? The 3.0 Duretec is variable valve timing by the way and has DUAL timing chains. Another case of the HOnda crowd giving misinformation.
intmed. another misinformer. Yes, my Ranger does have limited slip diff. Tacoma didn't even offer that until last year!! The Tacoma's diff is OPEN. The TRD package is a joke. The locker is so limited on its use, its useless for over 99 percent of your driving. All Toyota did was throw on some Bilstien shocks/springs and call it a "tuned" suspension. Complete boxed frame? Once again, wrong, the Ranger is boxed AND has 8 crossbeams vs the 6 in the Tacoma! AND has a better crash test result for 98! And now with the new SOHC V6 available the new Ranger will plain out power the Tacoma. Sorry, I know this is not a Ranger vs Tacoma room..
Off topic. Just found it interesting.
There is a version of the Duratec 3.0 with VVT, but only in the Jag's.. Not in the Escape..
However, by looking at the hp/torque curve in the CRV, the VVT really helped the CRV in the 500 to 1500 (low rpm) range, and that is useful in everyday cruising. Notice how the smaller 4cylinder Honda actually has more HP than the larger 6cylinder Escape up until around 1500 rpms. In a normal 4cylinder I doubt this would be the case. This is what makes me believe in the VVT benifits.
But in the acceleration race where your into the meat of the RPMs (2000-4000 range) VVT didn't seem to give alot of gains.
Without any kind of VVT the valves are opening the same amount no matter what.
Am I completely off base?
Also, I think the Lincoln LS Duratec is gaining VVT this year too. The Jag S-Type's 3.0 is pumping out close to 250 HP now with the VVT.
I believe the Tacoma and Ranger got similar crash test scores for insurance company.
Scape2...you need to learn more about LSD and lockers. Yes, a locker is selectable while LSD is more hands-off. LSD is more effective in wet weather. Unfortunately for you, most off-roaders prefers a locker over LSD. In addition, your LSD is CLUTCH-based (as opposed to gear-based), which means that it is not made for heavy duty and of limited effectiveness when one wheel is in the air (in which case, you need to also depress the brakes in hope of activating your LSD). Toyota's electronic locker is all GEAR-based...this is what TRUE aftermarket lockers are made from. It is quite heavy duty. You don't want to argue about this, man! Go to any off-roading forum and ask! You maybe disappointed by their answers! BTW, the locker was available on Tacoma prior to last year...check your info again!
As for frame, the number of crossmembers is useless. Hint: look at GMC Envoy's crash tests. Your Ranger frame is NOT boxed from front to end!! It is boxed only in the front. Go look at it again...btw, do you even know what i am talking about (boxed vs. c-frame?)??? If you're comparing with my 4Runner, my crossmembers are even boxed (!), not just the frame rails. In addition, my 4Runner frame rails and crossmembers (all boxed) are made of high-strength steel!
Strange, Scape2, why is the Ranger not seen as an off-roader by the off-roading community...rather, the TAcoma is. Hmmm....
Another ground clearance: 11.0 for Tacoma and 7.4 for Ranger. Hmmm....(BTW, with FX4, ground clearance is 7.8 by Peterson's magazine, pretty pathetic for an "off-roader".)
TRD useless???? What the hell do you think "FX4" is??? The same thing, man!
Hmm, if you ask your mechanic, the 3.4L V6 on the Toyota is pretty much bulletproof, as is the transmission. Along with the 4.0 I-6 (jeeps), Chev 4.3L, and Ford Triton engines, the 3.4L V6 is highly regarded! Go and ask!
Scape2, why did you ever complain about my 4Runner's wheelbase in off-roading??? Geez....
1. I have no idea where he got it. (Dave, please answer this if you can and I'll create another chart).
2. It only runs to 6,000 rpms, not the full engine range.
3. The calculations described on that website are correct, but not an exact science. IIRC, the author mentions that things like a turbo will alter how things work. VTEC has the same effect.
VTEC (variable valve timing and electronic lift control) uses VVT and adds lift control. Lift is how wide the valves are opened. So VTEC allows the valves to be open longer and wider, letting even more air into the system.
i-VTEC adds phase control to the other technologies. Phase is "when" the valves are open with respect to the action of the pistons. With phase control, the valves may be opened slightly ahead of schedule to anticipate airflow. With all three together, the valves may be adjusted to open longer, wider, and earlier.
I have been through all this over in the TAcoma vs Ranger room years ago.
First off the Tacoma did NOT offer a LSD until just last years model. Go to the Tacoma site and ask them over there. Second, you are preaching to someone who has almost 20 years of offroad experience under his belt. I live in the NW region. I vist MT Hood, MT St Helens, Tillamook National Forest, Three Sisters areas. Toyota measures its ground clearance from the highest point, Ford does not, go ask your Tacoma boys in the Ranger Tacoma room. Another point is the Tacoma has larger tires stock. I have a LT265 with 16" rims, stand my truck side by side with my friends Tacoma TRD and he has maybe 1/4" advantage.
Lockers, no duh that lockers are better for offroading, I never said they weren't. But, lockers only work in straight away acceleration. Read the Tacoma book, and see that you are not to engage the locker over 10mph! A locker does not help you tow, pull, haul anything. Without the locker engaged the rear axle is OPEN! Do you know what this means?? ONE wheel turns. Tacoma TRD is for most an image machine. Beings over 90% of 4x4's don't even see gravel, its useless. Ranger with is LSD is more useful to the everyday truck user. Go recheck your crashtest in 98 the RAnger is better.
Why is your 4-runner so weak? Let us know your HP/Torque ratings and the weight of your vehicle?
2003 Land Rover Disco (with new 4.6L V8)= 9.5
2003 Range Rover = 9.5
2003 Montero = 11-something
2002 Toyota Land Cruiser = 9.5-10
2003 Lexus GX470 = 8.5
2003 Hummer H2 = more than 10 seconds i think
2002 Infiniti QX4/Pathfinder = about 9.0
2003 Nissan Xterra = 9.5 with supercharger
BTW, GMC Envoy, Ford Explorer, MDX, Pilot...i don't consider them in the same class as above in
terms of on-road & off-road ability.
I do respect the Triton family of engine from Ford. The rest is pretty much trash.
Image or not, but i think the Tacoma is far more capable off-road (just go to your local off-roading club)! (i think that is what we're talking about, right? Off-roading.) Almost 20 years off-roading experience and you don't know that! And then, you buy an Escape?! That is too funny! So, your "off-roading" vehicles are: Ranger (7.4 ground clearance, partially boxed frame, CLUTCH-based LSD) and the mighty Escape. Interesting choices.
Scape2...i would not say that your Ranger did better than the Tacoma in the Insurance crash test.
Ranger:
Overall = acceptable
Structural cage = MARGINAL (8 crossmembers you say?)
Head/chest/left foot = Good
Right foot = marginal
Restraints/kinematics = ACCEPTABLE.
Tacoma:
Overall = acceptable
Structural cage = ACCEPTABLE
Head = Acceptable
Chest = Good
Left foot = Poor
Right foot = GOOD
Restraints/kinematics = GOOD.
I think it is pretty much a tie...i would rate structural cage and kinematics very important (more so than leg injury).
Better, you say?? 8 crossmembers, huh?
"Now, it's important to understand that nobody on the planet ever actually measures horsepower from a running engine. What we actually measure (on a dynomometer) is torque, expressed in foot pounds (in the U.S.), and then we *calculate* actual horsepower by converting the twisting force of torque into the work units of horsepower. "
Now your questioning the source of the chart. First, it appears that it was someone who owns a Honda that was the source (thus the picture of the CRV). The CRV numbers were consistant on both charts. So the CRV numbers are mostly correct (although the math doesn't add up around 3500 and 4000 rpms, where either the HP is listed too high there, or the torque is listed to low there)..
The Escape numbers on the chart are also reasonable.
It shows the correct HP at the correct RPM reported by Ford. Also the peak torque occurs at the correct rpm reported by Ford.
Please describe what would you expect the Escape HP curve to look like to support your claim that the Torque curve is not as broad? (and yet still keep the peak Torque and HP at the proper rpms). Given the math, it would have be a pretty funky looking curve..
Next you say the other flaw is that chart only goes to 6000 RPMS.
Remember, I was coming up with independant information to support my claim that the Escape has just as broad of a torque curve as the CRV.
You defined broad as 90% of available torque range. At 6000+ rpms your outside the 'broad range'. (no matter which chart you use).
Also how many people really rev their engines past 6000 rpms anyway? If your at that RPM, you'd get better acceleration if you shifted up to the next gear on both vehicles.
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Note: I'm not an automotive engineer (well, I'm a software engineer but thats hardly the same), but I do understand and believe basic math and science.. I believe its been noted that your also an engineer, what is wrong with Bruce Augenstein's math? (for others just joining in see http://www.vettenet.org/torquehp.html)
But your previous exchanges really don't belong on this topic.. Toyota is not Honda. Rangers are not Escapes. Tacoma's are not CRV's. 4runners are not Hondas or CRV's.. I'm not the moderator, but I really don't care about a discussion between Tacoma's or Rangers. (nor would most folks if they are visiting this topic to a CRV vs Escape discussion)..
I don't speak for everyone here, and I'm not the moderator. I'm just expressing my opinion.
No mention of the CRV..
tidester
Host
SUVs; Aftermarket & Accessories
The formula used to calculate HP is a mathematical fact. I do not question it. It would work perfectly... in a vacuum. If you take that formula and apply it to other engines, you'll find quite a few discrepancies like the variations you found with the CR-V's 2.4.
No, I'm not an engineer. I'm a corporate trainer for a software company. No offense to those here with the title, but "Engineer" doesn't mean much to me. For example, I suspect that one of them here in this thread is actually a "Sanitation Engineer".
I don't like to be dis-trusting or dis-trusted by default so I find it difficult to hear people yell "prove it" without offering any counterpoint to support what was said wasn't accurate the first time. In a nut shell, I don't like things being discredited simply because it came out of a Honda or Ford owners mouth.
I still stand by that we expect less and get less every day though. There are exceptions to this rule, but each one of us in some form lets something go that we shouldn't everyday.
That said, Honda Rules. Lol.
If this isn't clear, what I'm trying to say is a person's posts are their credentials rather than titles.
We can all hold hands now and sing cume-by-ya..
...
..
Ok, thats enough.. It is perfectly fine for us to have different opinions.. Now back to our respective corners and wait for the bell to ring for the next round..
ding..
Ford Rules. hehe
ALL CONTROL ARMS are STAMPED steel front and rear! There is absolutely no doubt of this! No doubt. The rear arms are obvious (similar to 1st gen CRV). The front control arms are indeed stamped (UNlike what Scape2 stated!). That is WHY it is "thicker" than CRV 2nd gen. Scape2, your suspension control arms are NOT tougher than CRVs (either generations!). In fact, the front control arms on the 2nd gen CRV are stronger (despite it being narrower)...for reasons i explained above (solid vs. boxed vs. stamped). Again, whoever doubts this MUST look under your Escape BEFORE responding.
Otherwise, the control arms are very similar to the 1st gen CRV...which makes sense because Ford had only the 1st gen CRV to design the Escape against.
Now, skidplates. The 2wd models, at least, do NOT have ANY skidplates. None. Nada. Nothing. Again, i did not inspect any 4wd models. However, i doubt that this would make any difference. There is a reason why Ford does NOT list skidplates on the Escape's specifications.
Scape2, over 20 years of off-roading, huh? Strange how you canNOT tell the difference between stamped and boxed control arms! Over 20 years?? Did you include your years during childhood when you played in the mud with your friends??? Geez....
tidester
Host
SUVs; Aftermarket & Accessories
intemed,, Your wrong!@ you don't know the difference yourself, LOL!!. I know what stamped is bud, obviously you don't. Stopping by a car lot on a Sunday and no salespeople around?? What?? Saturday/Sunday are usally the busiest days. All the dealerships in my region are packed with salespeople.. None around? what??
If the Escapes frame/suspension is so weak why does it tow 2000, lbs MORE than the CRV?
In all fairness here, I can't keep up in this room. I am too busy with both my kids in soccer, my coaching, school activities and such. I know I am going to get an ear full of I'm running away garbage. I'll be bach as soon as soccer ends, believe me..
as long as there are people like intmed, varmit, hondaman02 spreading Ford bashing, I'll be back..
Here is their phone number, Scape2:
(979) 532-4360
Here is their website:
http://www.von-wilford.com
Here is their working hours:
http://www.von-wilford.com/pages/present/flm/notlocalized/hours/default.asp?NavID=4
Do you want their fax number too?? I can give that too!
Dude, you need to learn the DIFFERENCE!! And stop dreaming that your Escape has something that it does not!!
I think that is a good thing for the employees, especially those with families.
Odie
I found the HP curve for the Escape on the internet using google.com. I then found a curve for the 2002 CRV. I extrapolated the data off the graph then superimposed them on the same graph using excel.
I don't recollect the Curve saying whether it was a manufactures spec or a dyno test. I couldn't tell you, but I will try to find the curve again so I can reference it for all to see.
I guess we can declare the CRV the winner!
For its sake I hope so. Perhaps we can include it with the Vue/Santa Fe/etc. thread if it needs to be continued. At least there we don't get the same recycled drivel over and over again.
Realistically, we've just beaten all of the issues to death.. Both are good vehicles who's owners can be proud they aren't driving a RAV4..
We could start a thread Escape and CRV vs. all others..
OK, I'll play.
Why did you write this?
And aren't you the guy who said months ago that the Escute stalling issue was history?
You have been following the other boards, haven't you? There's a new stalling post today, on a 2002 model.
Suvshopper - I assume Bess intended that to be more of an "us vs them" rather than a direct note toward the RAV4. I figured he just picked the other most popular/comparable vehicle as an example.
I know this is out of context here but there have been soooo many comments concerning Honda's lack of attention to customers from some people here that I figured it is a great example of the opposite. Attention to detail is not the only way Honda takes reliability seriously but also making sure the customers come back. I am not sure that Ford does the same:
http://beta.vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=39434
Varmit understood what I was meaning.
RAV4 is kind of in a smaller class anyway, I think its closest competitor is the Forester.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Greetings from sunny Miami.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Watch it davegh! You might get things started again if you keep that up.