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CR-V vs Escape

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Comments

  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    me to get a life??? over 50 posts in the last 48hours and I can't keep up?? nor respond to who??
    Maybe its time we did shut this down.
    What? car engine?? truck engine?? This is why Toyota uses the same V8 in the Tundra as the Lexus?? or Honda now uses the 2.4 in the new Accord?? The 3.0 Duretec is variable valve timing by the way and has DUAL timing chains. Another case of the HOnda crowd giving misinformation.
    intmed. another misinformer. Yes, my Ranger does have limited slip diff. Tacoma didn't even offer that until last year!! The Tacoma's diff is OPEN. The TRD package is a joke. The locker is so limited on its use, its useless for over 99 percent of your driving. All Toyota did was throw on some Bilstien shocks/springs and call it a "tuned" suspension. Complete boxed frame? Once again, wrong, the Ranger is boxed AND has 8 crossbeams vs the 6 in the Tacoma! AND has a better crash test result for 98! And now with the new SOHC V6 available the new Ranger will plain out power the Tacoma. Sorry, I know this is not a Ranger vs Tacoma room..
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    http://www.detnews.com/2002/insiders/0209/12/b01-584978.htm


    Off topic. Just found it interesting.

  • bessbess Member Posts: 972
    In this particular case, I don't see mis-information given by Honda supporters.

    There is a version of the Duratec 3.0 with VVT, but only in the Jag's.. Not in the Escape..

    However, by looking at the hp/torque curve in the CRV, the VVT really helped the CRV in the 500 to 1500 (low rpm) range, and that is useful in everyday cruising. Notice how the smaller 4cylinder Honda actually has more HP than the larger 6cylinder Escape up until around 1500 rpms. In a normal 4cylinder I doubt this would be the case. This is what makes me believe in the VVT benifits.
    But in the acceleration race where your into the meat of the RPMs (2000-4000 range) VVT didn't seem to give alot of gains.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    Now correct me if I'm wrong, but the 2002 CR-V has what is dubbed i-VTEC (the "i" stands for intelligent I think) as opposed to the older VTEC which is in our Civic. It seems to me that the "i" is what is helping with the power down low as our Civic doesn't really open the valves all the way until about 4000 rpms all the time(redline is 7000). Meaning the i-VTEC is capable of opening the valves when they are most needed rather than only at a specific point in the engine's acceleration.

    Without any kind of VVT the valves are opening the same amount no matter what.

    Am I completely off base?

    Also, I think the Lincoln LS Duratec is gaining VVT this year too. The Jag S-Type's 3.0 is pumping out close to 250 HP now with the VVT.
  • intmed99intmed99 Member Posts: 485
    Tundra's V8 in Lexus?? Oh yeah, the Tundra V8 was "based" on the Lexus LS400 engine. Only thing is, Toyota actually redesigned most of it. Notice that the Tundra has an iron-block (better to handle the extra torque & stress), 4.7 L vs. 4.0L, difference in compression ratios, etc. Or do you mean that the Tundra has a similar engine to the Lexus LX470...which is true, but what's your point (both are heavy duty truck/SUV)??

    I believe the Tacoma and Ranger got similar crash test scores for insurance company.

    Scape2...you need to learn more about LSD and lockers. Yes, a locker is selectable while LSD is more hands-off. LSD is more effective in wet weather. Unfortunately for you, most off-roaders prefers a locker over LSD. In addition, your LSD is CLUTCH-based (as opposed to gear-based), which means that it is not made for heavy duty and of limited effectiveness when one wheel is in the air (in which case, you need to also depress the brakes in hope of activating your LSD). Toyota's electronic locker is all GEAR-based...this is what TRUE aftermarket lockers are made from. It is quite heavy duty. You don't want to argue about this, man! Go to any off-roading forum and ask! You maybe disappointed by their answers! BTW, the locker was available on Tacoma prior to last year...check your info again!

    As for frame, the number of crossmembers is useless. Hint: look at GMC Envoy's crash tests. Your Ranger frame is NOT boxed from front to end!! It is boxed only in the front. Go look at it again...btw, do you even know what i am talking about (boxed vs. c-frame?)??? If you're comparing with my 4Runner, my crossmembers are even boxed (!), not just the frame rails. In addition, my 4Runner frame rails and crossmembers (all boxed) are made of high-strength steel!

    Strange, Scape2, why is the Ranger not seen as an off-roader by the off-roading community...rather, the TAcoma is. Hmmm....

    Another ground clearance: 11.0 for Tacoma and 7.4 for Ranger. Hmmm....(BTW, with FX4, ground clearance is 7.8 by Peterson's magazine, pretty pathetic for an "off-roader".)

    TRD useless???? What the hell do you think "FX4" is??? The same thing, man!

    Hmm, if you ask your mechanic, the 3.4L V6 on the Toyota is pretty much bulletproof, as is the transmission. Along with the 4.0 I-6 (jeeps), Chev 4.3L, and Ford Triton engines, the 3.4L V6 is highly regarded! Go and ask!

    Scape2, why did you ever complain about my 4Runner's wheelbase in off-roading??? Geez....
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    Bess - I also used the hp curve provided by Davghh, but found a few problems.

    1. I have no idea where he got it. (Dave, please answer this if you can and I'll create another chart).

    2. It only runs to 6,000 rpms, not the full engine range.

    3. The calculations described on that website are correct, but not an exact science. IIRC, the author mentions that things like a turbo will alter how things work. VTEC has the same effect.
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    VVT (variable valve timing) allows the valves to open for a longer or shorter period of time. A higher rpms, it is generally better to have them open longer, and let more air into the combustion chamber. In cars like the base RSX (160hp), the engine has VTEC intake valves. In cars like the RSX Type S (200hp), both the intake and exhaust valves are variable. Air goes in and out much faster.

    VTEC (variable valve timing and electronic lift control) uses VVT and adds lift control. Lift is how wide the valves are opened. So VTEC allows the valves to be open longer and wider, letting even more air into the system.

    i-VTEC adds phase control to the other technologies. Phase is "when" the valves are open with respect to the action of the pistons. With phase control, the valves may be opened slightly ahead of schedule to anticipate airflow. With all three together, the valves may be adjusted to open longer, wider, and earlier.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    Didn't want to get into this in this topic but here goes..
    I have been through all this over in the TAcoma vs Ranger room years ago.
    First off the Tacoma did NOT offer a LSD until just last years model. Go to the Tacoma site and ask them over there. Second, you are preaching to someone who has almost 20 years of offroad experience under his belt. I live in the NW region. I vist MT Hood, MT St Helens, Tillamook National Forest, Three Sisters areas. Toyota measures its ground clearance from the highest point, Ford does not, go ask your Tacoma boys in the Ranger Tacoma room. Another point is the Tacoma has larger tires stock. I have a LT265 with 16" rims, stand my truck side by side with my friends Tacoma TRD and he has maybe 1/4" advantage.
    Lockers, no duh that lockers are better for offroading, I never said they weren't. But, lockers only work in straight away acceleration. Read the Tacoma book, and see that you are not to engage the locker over 10mph! A locker does not help you tow, pull, haul anything. Without the locker engaged the rear axle is OPEN! Do you know what this means?? ONE wheel turns. Tacoma TRD is for most an image machine. Beings over 90% of 4x4's don't even see gravel, its useless. Ranger with is LSD is more useful to the everyday truck user. Go recheck your crashtest in 98 the RAnger is better.
    Why is your 4-runner so weak? Let us know your HP/Torque ratings and the weight of your vehicle?
  • intmed99intmed99 Member Posts: 485
    Hmmm, 0-60 in 9.5-10 seconds is not too bad, is it?? Flat torque curve helps....Like i said, the 4Runner is quite a machine...engine is bullet-proof...something that Ford has no idea about! Give you a few comparisons of REAL SUVs 0-60 times:

    2003 Land Rover Disco (with new 4.6L V8)= 9.5
    2003 Range Rover = 9.5
    2003 Montero = 11-something
    2002 Toyota Land Cruiser = 9.5-10
    2003 Lexus GX470 = 8.5
    2003 Hummer H2 = more than 10 seconds i think
    2002 Infiniti QX4/Pathfinder = about 9.0
    2003 Nissan Xterra = 9.5 with supercharger

    BTW, GMC Envoy, Ford Explorer, MDX, Pilot...i don't consider them in the same class as above in
    terms of on-road & off-road ability.

    I do respect the Triton family of engine from Ford. The rest is pretty much trash.

    Image or not, but i think the Tacoma is far more capable off-road (just go to your local off-roading club)! (i think that is what we're talking about, right? Off-roading.) Almost 20 years off-roading experience and you don't know that! And then, you buy an Escape?! That is too funny! So, your "off-roading" vehicles are: Ranger (7.4 ground clearance, partially boxed frame, CLUTCH-based LSD) and the mighty Escape. Interesting choices.
  • intmed99intmed99 Member Posts: 485
    An addition to above list: Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.7L V8 (NOT 4.0L I-6) is really the only real SUV that can beat the 4Runner cleanly in acceleration. Does that mean that ALL the SUVs mentioned above are UNDERPOWERED and WEAK, thus inferior to your Ranger/Explorer???

    Scape2...i would not say that your Ranger did better than the Tacoma in the Insurance crash test.

    Ranger:
    Overall = acceptable
    Structural cage = MARGINAL (8 crossmembers you say?)
    Head/chest/left foot = Good
    Right foot = marginal
    Restraints/kinematics = ACCEPTABLE.

    Tacoma:
    Overall = acceptable
    Structural cage = ACCEPTABLE
    Head = Acceptable
    Chest = Good
    Left foot = Poor
    Right foot = GOOD
    Restraints/kinematics = GOOD.

    I think it is pretty much a tie...i would rate structural cage and kinematics very important (more so than leg injury).

    Better, you say?? 8 crossmembers, huh?
  • bessbess Member Posts: 972
    Your site explained the formula and the science behind the formula. The formula has no dependence on the type of engine, engine technology, or any other factor. In fact he clearly shows the relationship between Torque and HP. It is an exact science on that part. Also note the quote:


    "Now, it's important to understand that nobody on the planet ever actually measures horsepower from a running engine. What we actually measure (on a dynomometer) is torque, expressed in foot pounds (in the U.S.), and then we *calculate* actual horsepower by converting the twisting force of torque into the work units of horsepower. "


    Now your questioning the source of the chart. First, it appears that it was someone who owns a Honda that was the source (thus the picture of the CRV). The CRV numbers were consistant on both charts. So the CRV numbers are mostly correct (although the math doesn't add up around 3500 and 4000 rpms, where either the HP is listed too high there, or the torque is listed to low there)..

     The Escape numbers on the chart are also reasonable.

    It shows the correct HP at the correct RPM reported by Ford. Also the peak torque occurs at the correct rpm reported by Ford.


    Please describe what would you expect the Escape HP curve to look like to support your claim that the Torque curve is not as broad? (and yet still keep the peak Torque and HP at the proper rpms). Given the math, it would have be a pretty funky looking curve..


    Next you say the other flaw is that chart only goes to 6000 RPMS.

    Remember, I was coming up with independant information to support my claim that the Escape has just as broad of a torque curve as the CRV.

    You defined broad as 90% of available torque range. At 6000+ rpms your outside the 'broad range'. (no matter which chart you use).


    Also how many people really rev their engines past 6000 rpms anyway? If your at that RPM, you'd get better acceleration if you shifted up to the next gear on both vehicles.




    -


    Note: I'm not an automotive engineer (well, I'm a software engineer but thats hardly the same), but I do understand and believe basic math and science.. I believe its been noted that your also an engineer, what is wrong with Bruce Augenstein's math? (for others just joining in see http://www.vettenet.org/torquehp.html)

  • bessbess Member Posts: 972
    I'm also a Ranger owner, and I admit that I am as guilty as anyone in sometimes diverting to topics outside the scope of Escape vs CRV..

    But your previous exchanges really don't belong on this topic.. Toyota is not Honda. Rangers are not Escapes. Tacoma's are not CRV's. 4runners are not Hondas or CRV's.. I'm not the moderator, but I really don't care about a discussion between Tacoma's or Rangers. (nor would most folks if they are visiting this topic to a CRV vs Escape discussion)..

    I don't speak for everyone here, and I'm not the moderator. I'm just expressing my opinion.
  • bessbess Member Posts: 972
  • tidestertidester Member Posts: 10,059
    We don't mind occasional off topic but related diversions but discourage dwelling on them for too long. Usually, the members do a pretty good job of bringing the focus back on topic. If there is enough interest in a new topic one could always start up a new discussion in the appropriate section of the Town Hall.

    tidester
    Host
    SUVs; Aftermarket & Accessories
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    Bess - Generally, I do not like to post misinformation even if it was the result of an honest mistake. Since I cannot verify the curve presented by Daveghh, I've refrained from speculation on it. I do not hold you or anyone else to that standard, I'm simply explaining my reluctance to discuss it at this time.

    The formula used to calculate HP is a mathematical fact. I do not question it. It would work perfectly... in a vacuum. If you take that formula and apply it to other engines, you'll find quite a few discrepancies like the variations you found with the CR-V's 2.4.

    No, I'm not an engineer. I'm a corporate trainer for a software company. No offense to those here with the title, but "Engineer" doesn't mean much to me. For example, I suspect that one of them here in this thread is actually a "Sanitation Engineer".
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    Very PC varmint.
  • freeberfreeber Member Posts: 116
    My apologies to everyone and in particular Bess. I responded when I was bent out of shape about something else.

    I don't like to be dis-trusting or dis-trusted by default so I find it difficult to hear people yell "prove it" without offering any counterpoint to support what was said wasn't accurate the first time. In a nut shell, I don't like things being discredited simply because it came out of a Honda or Ford owners mouth.

    I still stand by that we expect less and get less every day though. There are exceptions to this rule, but each one of us in some form lets something go that we shouldn't everyday.

    That said, Honda Rules. Lol.
  • soccermum02soccermum02 Member Posts: 47
    Not being an engineer doesn't mean you can't think clearly and critically, and having a B.S in any field does not guarantee that you can. A B.S merely means you sat in courses and met some standard of grading (in some cases you may even have written a directed thesis), a M.S. indicates that you are capable of research and some independent thought (hopefully clear), and a Ph.D adds creative thought to the requirements. But any degree is only as good as the brain behind it.

    If this isn't clear, what I'm trying to say is a person's posts are their credentials rather than titles.
  • muckyduckmuckyduck Member Posts: 219
    by owners of escape/tribute in the problems thread. Excuses by Scape will say these are the same poster or Ford bashers. Maybe instead of Ford offering no payments till '03, they should get the cars already on the road fixed. Guess they are waiting for someone to die in their stalled suv.
  • bessbess Member Posts: 972
    your sincerity is unquestionable and you have permanently earned my respect.
    We can all hold hands now and sing cume-by-ya..

    ...

    ..

    Ok, thats enough.. It is perfectly fine for us to have different opinions.. Now back to our respective corners and wait for the bell to ring for the next round..

    ding..

    Ford Rules. hehe
  • intmed99intmed99 Member Posts: 485
    Well, today, i stopped by a local Ford dealership to RE-inspect the Escape...very closely! It is Sunday so no salesman was around to bother me. I inspected two 2wd models (small towns like mine don't get many 4wd i guess).

    ALL CONTROL ARMS are STAMPED steel front and rear! There is absolutely no doubt of this! No doubt. The rear arms are obvious (similar to 1st gen CRV). The front control arms are indeed stamped (UNlike what Scape2 stated!). That is WHY it is "thicker" than CRV 2nd gen. Scape2, your suspension control arms are NOT tougher than CRVs (either generations!). In fact, the front control arms on the 2nd gen CRV are stronger (despite it being narrower)...for reasons i explained above (solid vs. boxed vs. stamped). Again, whoever doubts this MUST look under your Escape BEFORE responding.

    Otherwise, the control arms are very similar to the 1st gen CRV...which makes sense because Ford had only the 1st gen CRV to design the Escape against.

    Now, skidplates. The 2wd models, at least, do NOT have ANY skidplates. None. Nada. Nothing. Again, i did not inspect any 4wd models. However, i doubt that this would make any difference. There is a reason why Ford does NOT list skidplates on the Escape's specifications.

    Scape2, over 20 years of off-roading, huh? Strange how you canNOT tell the difference between stamped and boxed control arms! Over 20 years?? Did you include your years during childhood when you played in the mud with your friends??? Geez....
  • tidestertidester Member Posts: 10,059
    Now, now! Let's play nice.

    tidester
    Host
    SUVs; Aftermarket & Accessories
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    Too many posts to respond too!!
    intemed,, Your wrong!@ you don't know the difference yourself, LOL!!. I know what stamped is bud, obviously you don't. Stopping by a car lot on a Sunday and no salespeople around?? What?? Saturday/Sunday are usally the busiest days. All the dealerships in my region are packed with salespeople.. None around? what??
    If the Escapes frame/suspension is so weak why does it tow 2000, lbs MORE than the CRV?
    In all fairness here, I can't keep up in this room. I am too busy with both my kids in soccer, my coaching, school activities and such. I know I am going to get an ear full of I'm running away garbage. I'll be bach as soon as soccer ends, believe me..
    as long as there are people like intmed, varmit, hondaman02 spreading Ford bashing, I'll be back..
  • intmed99intmed99 Member Posts: 485
    Yeah, i was lying about stopping at an empty Ford dealership...would you like to know my Ford dealership phone number????? You can ask them their working hours!


    Here is their phone number, Scape2:


    (979) 532-4360


    Here is their website:


    http://www.von-wilford.com


    Here is their working hours:


    http://www.von-wilford.com/pages/present/flm/notlocalized/hours/default.asp?NavID=4

     

    Do you want their fax number too?? I can give that too!


    Dude, you need to learn the DIFFERENCE!! And stop dreaming that your Escape has something that it does not!!

  • suvshopper4suvshopper4 Member Posts: 1,110
    Car dealerships in NJ (my part of it, anyway) are all closed on Sundays.

    I think that is a good thing for the employees, especially those with families.
  • daveghhdaveghh Member Posts: 495
    Since Thursday I have been to New Hampshire, then Amherst Mass then New York City and now I have so much catching up to do on this board and with my work. I briefly, I mean briefly scanned the posts and I saw some posts about the curves I produced. What do you want to know???
  • odie6lodie6l Member Posts: 1,173
    Here in PA it is a State Law that Car dealers are NOT allowed to be open on a Sunday. That's why most people go car shopping on sundays when nobody is around.

    Odie
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    Dave - Where did you get the HP curve for the Escape? I know that you created that one, but what did you base it on? Is it calculated based on known numbers? Was it in Ford's press material somewhere? Or is it based on a dyno test? Is it available on the web?
  • daveghhdaveghh Member Posts: 495
    Varmint,
    I found the HP curve for the Escape on the internet using google.com. I then found a curve for the 2002 CRV. I extrapolated the data off the graph then superimposed them on the same graph using excel.

    I don't recollect the Curve saying whether it was a manufactures spec or a dyno test. I couldn't tell you, but I will try to find the curve again so I can reference it for all to see.
  • daveghhdaveghh Member Posts: 495
    this thread dead?

    I guess we can declare the CRV the winner! ;)
  • intmed99intmed99 Member Posts: 485
    Too bad...because the Escape is a decent SUV. It is a very good competitor to the 1st generation CRV (from which it was designed to fight). But, honestly, the 2nd gen CRV is far more refined.
  • diploiddiploid Member Posts: 2,286
    "this thread dead?"

    For its sake I hope so. Perhaps we can include it with the Vue/Santa Fe/etc. thread if it needs to be continued. At least there we don't get the same recycled drivel over and over again.
  • beatfarmerbeatfarmer Member Posts: 244
    I prefer my drivel fresh, anyway.
  • bessbess Member Posts: 972
    And I thought it ended when I showed the Escape has more and just as broad power as the CRV..

    Realistically, we've just beaten all of the issues to death.. Both are good vehicles who's owners can be proud they aren't driving a RAV4..

    We could start a thread Escape and CRV vs. all others..
  • suvshopper4suvshopper4 Member Posts: 1,110
    "owners can be proud they aren't driving a RAV4.."

    OK, I'll play.

    Why did you write this?

    And aren't you the guy who said months ago that the Escute stalling issue was history?
    You have been following the other boards, haven't you? There's a new stalling post today, on a 2002 model.
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    Bess - I'm still waiting for Daveghh to find the HP curve he mentioned. I tried a Google search, but didn't come up with it myself. Regardless, I think the curve is probably "similar" to what you report, but there is still room for discussion on what it means. I'm just waiting for confirmation of the data before getting too deep into it.

    Suvshopper - I assume Bess intended that to be more of an "us vs them" rather than a direct note toward the RAV4. I figured he just picked the other most popular/comparable vehicle as an example.
  • hondaman02hondaman02 Member Posts: 250
    Hi all........ its been a while but not much new stuff has been said except that remark about the RAV4 was a little out of place!


    I know this is out of context here but there have been soooo many comments concerning Honda's lack of attention to customers from some people here that I figured it is a great example of the opposite. Attention to detail is not the only way Honda takes reliability seriously but also making sure the customers come back. I am not sure that Ford does the same:


    http://beta.vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=39434

  • bessbess Member Posts: 972
    My reference to Rav4 was purely random.. I was just pointing out that in my opinion CRV/Escape are clearly leaders of the pack with all of the other mini-suv's a fair distance back.

    Varmit understood what I was meaning.
  • suvshopper4suvshopper4 Member Posts: 1,110
    Right.
  • diploiddiploid Member Posts: 2,286
    bess - Next time pick a Tracker or a Sportage. The RAV4 owners are just as defensive as the CR-V owners.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    the sportage - they are about to stop making it for a while!

    RAV4 is kind of in a smaller class anyway, I think its closest competitor is the Forester.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • jfigueroa1jfigueroa1 Member Posts: 209
    When is the escape due for redesign?
    Greetings from sunny Miami.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    2004 or 2005 I think. They are planning on using the new Mazda 6 platform as a starting point from what I've read.
  • diploiddiploid Member Posts: 2,286
    Mazda is rumored to produce a Highlander/Pilot fighter based on the 6. It's rumored to be named the 9.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    wow, this room died... Had a few free minutes and thought I would take a quick peek and see what was going on...Nothing it seems
  • daveghhdaveghh Member Posts: 495
    this topic has been argued to death.... we decided the CRV was the clear winner, hands down! :) jk
  • diploiddiploid Member Posts: 2,286
    Hi scape. Yup, it done died.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    except in looks, for gosh sakes!

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    "this topic has been argued to death.... we decided the CRV was the clear winner, hands down!"

    Watch it davegh! You might get things started again if you keep that up.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    mind baggs.. this topic has been argued to death.. with no clear winner
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