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http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2004-05-13-ford-hybrid-suv_x.- htm
Test Drive:
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/reviews/healey/2004-05-13-esc- ape-main_x.htm
Sounds like they might be hard to find. Better get in line now!
So, yeah, Ford got help for the Escape HEV, but it's not like they bought the whole system from Toyota.
Fact is, Ford did invent everything in house but some of it was so similar to what Toyota had developed that they decided to cut a deal with them. In turn, Toyota has actually licensed some of Ford's patents for use in some of their upcoming hybrid vehicles. Both get the latest tech and neither one has to sue the other.
I know the initial news stories made it sound like Ford gave up and had to buy Toyota's parts to make their system work. That wasn't, and isn't the case at all. None of the hardware or software in the Ford system is exactly identical to that of the Toyota system. It's all been tweaked to work with each application.
You probably won't see either of them licensing anything from Honda because their system is completely different. Apparently Honda took a simpler yet less efficient approach. That's not to say that it's not effective though.
Here's where I'm getting this from:
http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000039&refer=colum- nist_levin&sid=azDp8xWV5rsU
IMO it is very important that Toyota hybrid technology ( or 20 patents, which were bought or developed independently) was actually PROVEN to work fine in Toyota cars. I only can imagine what would happen, if new Ford hybrid system would based on something which was NOT proven. Patents are ... just patents, proven technology is something different... .
For Ford it might be a good marketing tool, if
they would "admit that".
THERE IS NO TOYOTA SOFTWARE OR HARDWARE IN THE HYBRID ESCAPE!
Ford developed everything in-house but had to license some of Toyota's tech so they didn't infringe on their copyrights. It's all in the article I posted a few posts back as well as many others out there (paper and electronic).
Read the very first FAQ on this page:
http://www.fordvehicles.com/escapehybrid/faqs/index.asp?bhcp=1
Another one:
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/reviews/healey/2004-05-13-esc- ape-side_x.htm
Dear scape2, This is getting ME sick either.
Of course Ford is NOT " just sitting around not developing any new technologies for vehicles".
There are lots of concepts/systems which were pioneered/developed by Ford. They spend tons of money for that. They owned thousands of patents. But the thing is (and everybody know that) when it comes to realization/production very often there is a flop... . I mean the car is NOT RELIABLE/not PROVEN.
How came? Do you need examples? Or you know yourself? Take Ford Focus. When it appeared Consumer Reports choose it as a best car in class. Then that car had so many problems that CR do NOT recommend it anymore. THAT CAR WAS NOT PROVEN. I really feel SORRY for people who bought it.
Need more examples? How about Ford Escape when it was new?
Check CR, reliability ratings for Ford is generally poor. That is why I DO NOT TRUST FORD.
If reliability would improve, I'll be more that happy to own Ford.
I spoke to a person who worked at the factory.
He told me: never buy a new year model.
When they are starting a new model - the shape of a car is a gospel - everything else is secondary.
When new shape was approved, they slap everything together and THE WHOLE YEAR they are fixing failing systems in production to improve them.
Then comes another new year/new model and whole cycle starts again. Best buy PROVEN old model before it changes to a new (UNPROVEN ONE). Of course, this is a bit of simplification/generalization but this is true.
Mark Twain said: " Generalizations aren't worth a damn, but they generally true nonetheless."
baggs32: ". THERE IS NO TOYOTA SOFTWARE OR HARDWARE IN THE HYBRID ESCAPE!"
Of course not. Ford is capable to make them . One thing is strange. How come principle of hybrid systems are so close? Probably Ford and Toyota engineers do have "parallel brains" :-).
There is such thing as industrial espionage.
In other words, companies are stealing ideas from each other. It is a normal dirty business. They guard there secrets like "nuclear secrets" but they get stolen anyway and ... "Ford developed everything in-house ". Who stole from whom? I do not know.
I would not trust too much that "auto analysts - experts". There is always a possibility that they were paid by Ford to "spin" things.
Again, it is nice that Ford Hybrid system was PROVEN by Toyota. I hope everything will be o'k
for a new Hybrid Escape. This might be a future concept and EVENTUALLY auto-makers will bring it to perfection.
Face it, Ford had a Honda and Toyota in their engineering department in pieces as benchmarks for the Escape. Nothing wrong with that. But, let's not pretend like they're at the fore-front of hybrid technology.
That said, I think it's really cool that Ford has taken the step of introducing a hybrid SUV. Not only that but, an affordable one. They get big time kudos from me for that.
I don't care though, as long as they are there. Who cares when they got there. (Better late than never.)
Problem is, they may not have had the means to decipher Toyota's software thus having to develop their own. Seriously, how many different ways can there be to make an electric motor and ICE work in harmony?
Now we can ask again, what are the patents, which Ford licensed, protecting? If you said "software" you get a gold star for the day.
About inventions: Yes, there are lots of examples in history when inventions were made simultaneously but separately.
But it's not the case here.
As icvci precisely put it: "How difficult was it for Ford to make a hybrid system of "their own" when Honda and Toyota have had similar systems on the road for 4 years".
I'll bet you a case of beer Ford took a hard look at what Toyota and Honda had done with the Insight, Prius and Civic Hybrid. Why wouldn't they? You can't get sued for looking. How else would Ford know their technology was so similar to Toyota's that they would have to pay for patent use?
As for getting to the market quicker, it seems pretty obvious American manufacturers in general didn't think it would be such a well received technology. The Big2.5 were so happy with their truck sales they let everything else slide.
GM bought a stake in Subaru so they could use Subies AWD system. (The story I heard was GMs engineers were having a difficult time with AWD.)
I'm not saying it's wrong. It happens all the time. To quote a wise rooster, "I say, I say, if you can't beat em', join em."
So I did a complete 180 and saved a lot of money by buying the all-new, just-released...drumroll please...Kia Spectra. It cost me twelve grand, and it feels so much more expensive than that. I really like it and its 60,000 mile bumper-to-bumper warranty.
Only occasionally but they quickly bring themselves back into line! :-)
tidester, host
Odie
I too am a programmer and while it's true that there are a million ways to do the same thing differently through code, there are also a million ways to protect the code from prying eyes. Do you honestly think Toyota just leaves the code wide open for all to see?
To be fair, I can see why they would. It is copyright protected and anyone who uses it (Possibly Ford in this example) for their own benefit will have to pay a fee or be sued. But I don't think they would make it that easy for everyone else. The bigger money is in selling the entire system as a whole and they can't do that if they leave the code open.
Maybe I, you, or both of us are wrong about this. But the fact of the matter is, Ford developed their entire system on their own (use of "proven" examples notwithstanding) so it can be used in their own vehicles. Current and future.
It's funny how we all seem to forget that Toyota is now licensing some of Ford's hybrid patents to be used in their upcoming vehicles. Knowing this, will any of you buy a Toyota hybrid in the near future?
This is called "reverse engineering" and is widely used all over the world to save time and money. All auto-makers stealing staff from each other. Of course, they have an army of lawyers for "protection". Things, which they can't justify, - they would buy, and, in our case, Toyota was willing to sell to avoid costly lawsuits.
No matter how good Ford's Escape hybrid working prototype is, the main challenge is to get it to mass production without loosing the quality.
BTW, speaking of quality, is it true that tolerances of engine parts for Ford is several times bigger than these of Japanese?
I read it somewhere long time ago but can't give the exact reference.
Unfortunately I was almost laughed out of the thread by all the Hondaites because there was no way the Escape was as good as the CR-V in any way shape or form. They believed that the twins should have been built to compete with the current CR-V gen even though there was no way Ford/Mazda could buy one to take apart. So I gave up. Claiming that the Escape took the good from the CR-V and improved upon the rest didn't help my case either.
I still believe in what I said back then even though it's probably not any more popular with the Hondazens today. After all the Honda Bible does say "Thou shalt not bare false witness to brands other than the big giant H (not "head" for those of you who actually watched Third Rock from the Sun)!"
Anyone who suggests that manufacturers don't look to improve or incorporate their competitions successes in to their own vehicles by driving and/or dismantling them, is just plain wrong. It happens all of the time. Ever see the similarities between a Mercedes and a Lexus?
Thus far Ford has made it very easy for us to uphold the 10th Honda Commandment. "Thou shall not covet your neighbor's Ford." (I hope that doesn't include Mazda or I'm going straight to the firey underground showroom.)
RE: Software. It is perfectly possible to download the raw software in binary form from most any computer. But again, it would not be copied, and I doubt this is done.
RE: Personnel. Yes, people do hire personnel from other auto companies, but those personnel are hired for their future innovations, and are barred from using their former knowledge.
Your P5 doesn't have much Ford in it but the new Mazda's do. Particularly the Tribute, Mazda3 and my Mazda6. All three will send you straight to said showroom.
I know a guy working on a next generation vehicle for DCX and he has told me they have a Mazda in their studio for benchmarking.<i/>
Wow! Nothing against that guy you know but it'll be very interesting to see how DCX screws that one up.
Will it have a Hemi? I love how they're marketing that motor. For example (numbers aren't exact, but close), "Dodge Magnum starting at $23,000. Price as shown (with the Hemi) $35,000." That's quite a premium!
Baggs - I doubt that Mazda would have used the CR-V for reverse engineering purposes. Not out of some crazy Honda pride, but because the last gen CR-V has so little in common with the Escape/Tribute.
I can see how they would have benchmarked the CR-V in terms of comfort, quality, interior dimensions, etc. But not for engineering.
By the way, Chevy bought 12 old CR-Vs to use during development of the VUE. The same benchmarking was conducted, but they also used CR-Vs as test mules for the development of their CVT drivetrain.
More power,
larger wheels,
great 7 speaker/6 cd stereo,
better looks,
It's just so much more fun to drive than a CRV,
to name a few reasons.
I think the Tribute could lower it's body slightly and not lose the SUV feel and still have the same clearance. The CRV and Element are really closer to Mini vans than SUVs. I have nothing against Mini vans. Someday when we sell our 2002 Tribute, we'll probably purchase a minivan (my wife doesn't like the SUV image) to seat 7. I'll try to hold off as long as possible, at least 4 more years.
For me the Tribute has the right amount of power without losing too much in wasted fuel. A larger engine would affect the pocket book more than the ride for me.
we have an escape(it doesn't have much mileage on it), but it isn't way better than my explorer(v8 towing package). i get 16.5-17, usually. escape gets 19.5, am hoping for 21. our driving situations could be very different.
You don't think engineers have anything to do with comfort, quality, dimensions, etc.?
I know we were on the topic of reverse engineering a powertrain but I wasn't suggesting Ford/Mazda did so with the ICE versions of the twins. Sorry for the confusion. I really was only referring to some of the design elements mentioned above.
Steve, Host
tidester, host
http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000039&refer=colum- nist_baum&sid=apESQ1x8RI6A
I assume you are talking about my theory of a there being some sort of plot or scheme against Ford/GM/Dodge? I feel Edmunds, along with other chat rooms around the net have opened up a whole new book on Honda/Toyota. There are people out on the internet that are complaining about Honda and Toyota's stellar reputation and where it may be?? No more hiding anything with the internet my friend...
After grilling the wife on other makes and models, including (dare I say) the CR-V, Explorer, Equinox, Trail Blazer, etc., she just couldn't take her eyes off of our new black beauty. I have to say, the '05s are a BIG improvement over the older models and I didn't think our old one was all that bad. In fact, we loved that thing. Now maybe someone else will.
Here's what it has, in addition to the sharp new looks, and how it compares to the '02:
- Moonroof -Same as the 02
- Perforated leather seats with power driver's seat -'02 leather was more like vinyl, driver seat was power
- Reverse sensing system -N/A on '02
- Heated front seats and side mirrors -N/A on '02
- Electronic information display (Shows systems status, fuel economy, DTE, etc.) -N/A on '02
- MACH 300 audio system -Our '02 had the base audio
- Personal safety system -'02 deployed airbags no matter who was sitting in the seats
- Safety canopy -N/A in '02 but side airbags were an option
- 4 wheel disc brakes with ABS and EBFD -'02 had 2 discs and 2 drums with ABS
- 3-point belts and headrests in all 5 seating positions -'02 had each in only 4 positions
- Auto headlamps -N/A on '02
-Shifter in center console -'02 on steering column and somewhat in the way of the radio
- We all know about the new 4WD system and how it differs from the old
- Electrochromatic rear-view mirror
- All of the door switches are now illuminated -Only the window switch for each door lit up in the '02
- Body-colored lower cladding that won't collect dirt, wax, and tar -Rough gray plastic cladding that was nearly impossible to keep clean
Basically the only thing our '05 does not have is the tow package. I did want it even though we'll probably never use it, but you never know.
It's a lot quieter than the old one. It's still noisier than the Explorer we drove and our Mazda6, but it is definitely a lot quieter than the '02. Noticeably quieter.
The transmission is much smoother. Shifts are hardly noticed and are set at better points. Power delivery is about the same. Steering is the same. Still fairly tight and sporty for an SUV.
For all you safety nuts the '05 has a stiffer structure. The IIHS tested the '05 and it improved from marginal to acceptable. The side impact test was still poor without the optional safety canopy. I would imagine the scores will be much better with it like they were last year with the SABs.
Lastly (for now anyway), the spare tire is under the rear of the vehicle. The cargo well was re-designed to accomodate the hybrid's battery pack and is unused in the ICE version. Ford glued a big old piece of styrofoam in that well instead. IIRC they did that for crash protection which was the spare's duty in the old model. Personally I think they should have put a picnic table in there.
I almost forgot, HUGE improvements in overall quality. For example, the seat cusions are softer and much more inviting. I'm looking forward to that when we take it on a trip in Sept.. The doors close with a solid "thunk" in this 2005 Bill Ford model instead of the tin can sound the 2002 Jacques Nasser model made. All of the switchgear is tighter and doesn't feel like it will break off in your hands. Plus numerous other improvements that make it feel like a much more solid vehicle. Look out Lexus!!!
It was either take the rebate or Ford's interest rates so we took the rebate and used our credit union's lower interest rates.
They gave us $15,500 for the trade which is $1100 over the KBB and Edmunds TMV trade-in values. The original sticker was just a hair under $26,000 so it only depreciated about 41% over 30 months. Apparently Escapes are pretty hot in our area right now.
Varmint
2004 Honda SUV Olympics