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http://www.iihs.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/0413.htm
Only moving to acceptable on front crashes on the 2005 model. Other years and side impact are all POOR ratings.
The CRV on the otherhand, has received a Good rating since 2002 (maybe prior to that too - but didn't research):
http://www.iihs.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/0213.htm
I am buying one of these two this weekend - and based on the research, i.e. insurance costs, saftey, gas mileage, consumer ratings and reviews etc. - CRV surpasses the Escape anyday. Add the reliability of "Honda" in comparison to "Ford" and I think anyone's mind should be made up.
However, I must admit - the Ford Escape looks cooler.
--Leila
http://www.jdpower.com/news/releases/pressrelease.asp?ID=2004055
Have a great weekend all. I'm going to get away before the bickering over 2-3K stops and the baloney about Honda not being more reliable begins.
www.jdpower.com
The new dependability studies are in. Guess who's at the top. And who's not.
Just a little friendly advise.
S is the same as X but specific to Mazda. X is for all the other brands/makes.
I'll go tell that to my wife's sister who just recently had a leaky radiator fixed on her '01 CR-V SE.
They bought it 4 months before we bought our former '02 Escape and it has less miles on it. Never had a problem like that on the Ford.
Honda's are bought at below MSRP every minute of everyday. They are bought at invoice everyday. And yes they are even bought below invoice (invoice not including holdback). Stop saying it doesn't happen. These vehicles are not gold. They are a mass produced commodity that anyone who knows how to do their homework can buy at a reasonable price.
A car buying site on the internet seems to be what you're basing your opinion on. Get out from behind the computer and negotiate a deal. And please not again with the conspiracy against you. One of my posts was deleted also--even though I was just responding to your uncalled for comment.
And as long as we're now bringing in other sources, anyone see the latest issue of Car and Driver? The Escape finished dead last in their comparo. Beaten by the Saturn VUE, the Hyundai Santa Fe and the Chevrolet Equinox. They tested 6 cylinders so no CR-V or RAV4, etc.
JD Power released their latest survey yesterday and Honda beat Ford. Consumer Reports reports reliability and Honda beats Ford.
So how is Honda's reliability baloney? Because your sister-in-law had a radiator fail? Yep for her vehicle compared to yours the statement is true. But not in the aggregate.
CR's data comes from subscribers and I don't know where JD's comes from so I won't comment on the latter.
Since CR's data come from their readers they are not representative of the aggregate either. What brands of vehicles do you think CR readers own?
Starting to get the picture yet?
The story of my sister-in-law's radiator and the other failures of our past Civic show that no company is as reliable as these surveys make them out to be. People need to make their own decisions because you can get burned whether you buy a Honda or a Ford. I'm not the only one who can vouch for this.
All vehicles have their problems so you might as well get the one you like. Not the one some toaster tester in a lab coat drives. Unless, of course, that is the one you like.
Also, I noticed that the Accord and Civic didn't make JD's list. Funny how the higher volume models are of lower quality on those lists. Hmmm, I wonder why...
However I tend to agree with published data. What would you go by? Your sister-in-laws experience seems to be driving your opinion.
So if we ignore CR because it is based on surveys who should we trust? People who do it for a living like the auto mags or auto reviewers? Well some seem to disagree with what they say also.
If you buy into the fact that products can be rated in terms of reliability you have to use some source. If you don't then use personal experience and whatever else you like. What do you do when you need to buy a refrigerator, a vacuum cleaner or a computer? I look at the experts' opinions. That's also what I do with cars.
For 2001 models Honda had 209 problems per 100 vehicles, Ford had 276. The industry average was 269. From JD Power.
I don't go by anything because I don't really care. Like I, and you, said all vehicles have problems and I'd rather not be stuck with an "appliance" that puts me to sleep when I drive it. In all honesty, I just rely on my keen eye and the seat of my pants.
OTOH, I do subscribe to MT and do read C&D from time to time. Mostly to see the pictures and compare performance.
If you buy into the fact that products can be rated in terms of reliability you have to use some source. If you don't then use personal experience and whatever else you like. What do you do when you need to buy a refrigerator, a vacuum cleaner or a computer? I look at the experts' opinions. That's also what I do with cars.
I don't buy into that theory. They only thing I want is proof and none of those measures offer that. The manufacturers have it but I don't see them running to the mags to print it just yet.
I did follow CR's recommendation for a TV several years ago. Let's just say it was a nice TV during the two years it actually powered on.
Since then I've relied on other people's long term experience with products. When comparing refrigerators a few years ago we based our purchase on build quality and service. Whirlpool easily won that. Maytag was about even. If you don't know what I mean go feel the plastic on the inside frame of the doors of different brands. Amana's felt like Silly Putty while Whirlpool's felt like a brick.
I guess I tend to complicate my decision process by doing my own research but I enjoy it and always feel better about the decision in the long run. CR, JD, and all the others do offer a valuable service to those who don't have or don't want to take the time to make a decision on their own. I'm definitely not one of those people. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
To give you an example, we ended up buying our former '02 Escape after actually going out to touch and drive all of the competition. No ratings were involved at any point in time. The CR-V came in second because of it's quirky (to some) exterior and interior and lack of hill climbing power when loaded with people. Sure we had a couple of problems with the '02 Escape, but we liked it so much that we bought another one. The CR-V was back on the list this time around too but since it hasn't changed we didn't even go to look at it again.
.
Personally, when choosing my next vehicle, first I go by my own, other friend's, and associate's personal experiences. A good Ford dealer beats a bad Honda or Toyota dealer hands down in terms of sales and service. Then I read reviews and ratings, all of them that I can get my hands on. By then I've got it narrowed down to 2 or 3 vehicles and I test drive them all and compare my opinions to the reviews and ratings. I'm sure most intelligent people reading this forum does the same thing.
In my case while I like to think I know how to pick a quality product I'm not an expert on refrigerators or computer or cars. I'm pretty sure most of my friends are not either. That's why I use the experts' opinions as an important criteria. It's certainly not the only factor, I wouldn't go and buy the product sight unseen, but I have narrowed my choices down based on the reviews.
And for mikefm58; it's not a fight, it's a discussion. And even it was as simple as what you want I don't think the results would be binding ;-).
By the feel of the product when compared to the others in the store (Best Buy in this case) and I read the service/warranty information. My parents, sister, and other relatives all have bought nothing but Whirlpool refrigerators over the years. Absolutely every one of them has lasted 15+ years. In fact, my parent's unit is just starting to go south on them after 26 years of trouble free operation.
I honestly have no idea what CR has to say about the brand because I never bothered to check.
In my case while I like to think I know how to pick a quality product I'm not an expert on refrigerators or computer or cars. I'm pretty sure most of my friends are not either. That's why I use the experts' opinions as an important criteria. It's certainly not the only factor, I wouldn't go and buy the product sight unseen, but I have narrowed my choices down based on the reviews.
That's fine, and I understand why people take that approach. I really do because I used to do it too. I just don't buy into it anymore because basing a decision on what the "experts" say doesn't guarantee a thing. I've been burned with and without their "expert" opinions.
Besides, I have to admit, I have fun doing my own research.
I think we better get back on topic now before Steve and Tidester revoke our memberships!!
Post 5046 was a prime example of what I'm talking about and I guess ended up starting this whole discussion. She stated at the end:
I am buying one of these two this weekend - and based on the research, i.e. insurance costs, saftey, gas mileage, consumer ratings and reviews etc. - CRV surpasses the Escape anyday. Add the reliability of "Honda" in comparison to "Ford" and I think anyone's mind should be made up.
Nowhere in that post does it say she actually went to look at and drive an Escape or a CR-V for that matter. Just as she seems to think anyone who buys an Escape is wrong (my words), I think anyone who bases a purchase, especially one which is for a product you have to sit in and live with day in and day out, on reviews and ratings is just crazy.
<<... it doesn't guarantee a thing. I've been burned with and without their "expert" opinions.>>.
Me too. :-)
Listen to "experts" but use your own head as well.
Drive ... still waiting for the dealership and phone number... remember?? you bought a CRV EX for $20,500... And everyone is buying them for this price?? Remember?? Starting to look a little suspicious in your claim.
Here we go again about how unreliable Fords are and how they all breakdown.. come on people, this is getting really old. In 1998 I bought a Ford Ranger and was told over and over and over again how this truck was going to breakdown, fail blah, blah, blah... It went over 100,000 with not one problem. Once again.. I purhase a Ford Escape.. I hear the same old Honda beating drum.. its going to fail, its going to break down, its going to spend more time in the shop.. I have over 40,000 trouble free miles on my Escape..
Get out on the net there are plenty of peeved off Honda owners out here in other chat rooms..
Yes, I saw the Article in the Motor Trend aobut the 05 Escape coming in last. However, they used a Equinox, a Saturn Red Line and a top of the Line Santa Fe! Why not a Limmited Escape? I believe the Equionox would have won anyway because its new.. The Escape beats the Santa Fe hands down for styling and road manners. They didn't say anything bad either about the Escape bad they way.. I question how Motor Trend can get a 0-60 of 8.5 when the Escape was first introduced and have it get slower at 10.1???
Here is an 04 Escape 4x4 "Northwest package" for $18,975. Options are as follows...
Premium leather seating, Heated seats, power locks, Keyless entry, 4spd auto trans, 15" aluminum wheels, Full power options, V6.. "Too many options to list".. 6 at this price. Another dealership: Advertising 50 Escape Limited 4x4 for $5000 off MSRP!, Another dealership offering XLS Escapes from $16,888 up to $18788, XLT's from $20,480 to $21,388, Limited Escapes are $24,988.. I can go on and on here folks.
There are now 2 dealerships offering a LEASE on a CRV LX for $249 a month. This is a Lease not a buy. At the end of a lease you get nothing. Either buy the car for what they feel its worth or you walk away empty handed. The lease on the CRV is for 3 years. In small print it says you there is a $585 aquisition fee, $1,899 cash down, plus licence, title and a $250 refundable security deposit. So, you need $2,616 just to get into this CRV!! MSRP for a CRV LX at BOTH dealerships is $20,690. CRV's do cost more than Escapes...I have proven this over and over until I am blue in the keyboard....
Actually, that is incorrect. The Motor Trend comparo used a mid-level Santa Fe GLS with the 3.5 liter V6. The top of the line Santa Fe is the LX.
> Why not a Limmited Escape?
What difference would that really make? The Escape would have gained some points for extra features, but would lose points for being more expensive. For the most part, all the mechanicals essentially remain the same between the Escape they tested and the Limited version.
Besides, if you really want the most bang for the buck, the Santa Fe is the real winner in this comparo. Even Motor Trend acknowledges this fact.
Something is wrong with what you posted. 15" wheels with a V6? Not possible. So please get the story straight and repost.
$20500 (or lower) for an '04 CR-V EX with automatic transmission. Includes: alloy wheels, keyless entry, 6 disc in dash CD changer (na on the 4 cyl Escape), moonroof (na on the 4 cyl Escape), 4 wheel disc brakes (na on the 4 cyl Escape) with ABS and many other creature comforts.
Stop saying this price is not valid. IT IS.
I actually had a rubber O-ring stick to the filter inlet on our old Civic. Oil sprayed everywhere and I had to drift to a nearby gas station to fix it and refill the oil. That was a bad day.
To make things worse the morons in the garage decided to make me the butt of their jokes too. I had the last laugh though after having to tell them to put the cap back on the oil fill hole before starting the engine to test the filter out. Jerks.
Oh, and I wouldn't take a CR-V to an independent lube shop if I were any of you. Do you really think they'll pay any attention to the letter Honda sends to them regarding the fires?
And the rocket's red glare the honda's bursting in air gave proof thru the night that the ESCAPES are all right............
I thought it was pretty funny and thought I'd share it with all of you.
And finally with the CR-V...you have a chance that the engine will catch fire following an oil change or lock-up. So far around 30 CR-Vs have charred up and a 150 have had mechanical problems following an oil change. Until the all new 2006 CR-V comes out...I'd go with other compact SUVs on the market.
You are also the first one I've heard complain of the engine being whiny when changing gears or really any other time. While I'm still just looking at SUV's at this time I found the CR-V to be very refined and not at all whiny during my test drives. Did the V drive better when you first got it?
Oh, and by the way the all new CR-V doesn't come out until 2007
I did go to a dealership complaining of the loud & whiny noises that occur when the engine is cold. They informed me that the CR-V uses a chain instead of a timing belt which causes the noises. He told me that CR-V is indeed the loudest car among the Civic, Accord, Pilot and Odessey. The vibration during braking is annoying and also the car has high road noise due to the poor undersized stock tires. The drive is satisfactory, but definitely unrefined.
I first was somewhat satisfied with the car, but I'm beginning to think for $23,000 I could've done a lot better. Not to mention having to deal with horrible customer service at the dealer and at Honda Finance. With a V6 Tribute/Escape you can get 0% financing and rebates, plus a whole lot of more options to go along with it for around $21,000. Edmunds recommended the twins over the CR-V too.
Honestly, I feel the Honda name is grossly overrated. And the 3 Americano car companies have gotten a bad rap unfairly. The days where their cars die after 80,000 miles is over. The recent fires of CR-Vs and Honda's failure to do anything about it, was the nail in the coffin. I personally will never buy another Honda. The quality of their cars seem to be getting worse with each new design and their customer service is plain "non-existent".
Honda really needs to go back to drawing board and design better cars and treat its customers with some dignity.
I relied in part on the positive consumer reviews posted here on Edmunds. Later on I realized pretty much every compact SUV on the market has glowing reviews from Edmunds consumer reviews (Vue, Rav4, Santa Fe, Sorrento, Escape, Forester, Tribute, etc). I have to now conclude that mostly only those who are happy with their cars post reviews here, so I can't consider it very objective.
Steve, Host
I never said I bought a CR-V. I said that $20500 is what is advertised. I said someone else on Edmunds bought one at that price. I said someone bought one for a lower price and I told you what forum to check. I gave you the newspaper where the ad is at least ten times.
CR-V costs less than a comparably equipped Escape.
I'm done with you on this issue.
Nice ride, a Ford I'd buy.
I like the interior although I prefer no center console. The leather was okay, nothing special, kinda thin but, that's what I expect from any vehicle in this price range. I like the sliding seats in the V and wouldn't give them up.
I didn't find it any nicer to drive than the CR-V. I did like the dead pedal. I didn't like the driving position more than the CR-V but, I did like the different options I had. With the CR-V, you have to sit more up right and leg room isn't quite as plentiful. Still, I don't find myself needing more room in the V, but I noticed it was there in the Escape.
Wind and road noise were about the same.
Personally, I didn't see much difference in acceleration than when I went to Colorado in the V. I'm sure there was but, it wasn't enough for me to really take note of.
The Escape's MACH stereo was very nice, much nicer than that in the V. It sounds better. It has RDS. And, it allows you to pick where you want the CD in the changer. Nice.
Overall, I was impressed with the Escape. The little MPG computer was fun if not a little gimmicky. We averaged 18.7 MPG with a roof top carrier holding 2 golf bags and a couple dufflebags.
I hated the cargo area though. The cargo space in the V (again, in my opinion) is much more versatile. I had to move a 29 gallon aquarium last week and it would have been impossible without lowering the seats in the Escape. In the V, the stand fit right in, standing up, the aquarium fit in front of it on the floor and two boxes of turtle paraphernalia sat on the aquarium. Stuff just fits better. Oh, and golf clubs fit better in the back of the V.
Good stuff. I enjoyed the Escape and would take one in a heartbeat.
The MACH in our '05 is really a great stereo. Much, much better than the crappy BOSE unit in our Mazda6. It actually has a separate dedicated amp next to the subwoofer in the cargo bay.
The MACH subwoofer does take up some cargo space which is a small problem. I actually had 6 golf bags (but not all 6 passengers) in the back of our '02 Escape one time. They fit just fine. I have not tried to fit any in the back of our '05 with the MACH yet, but it's looking like I would never get 6 back there.
Honda CR-V is a popular car but is certainly not what you call a best-seller or very high-demand car. If you are negotiating for this car now...I would shoot for $20,200 and edge up until the deal is struck at $20,500.
I'm not saying the golf bags don't fit, they do at an angle. The CR-V swallows them up without any manuevering what-so-ever. Just stack em up. Actually, you could stand the bags upright and fit about 8-10 of them in their without folding the seats.
That last part is what I was really getting at. The non-MACH models can hold several bags straight from side to side. That subwoofer and amp back there takes up a good bit of space. I never tried to stand the bags up, probably for safety reasons but it's still pretty cool that you can do that, and I don't think they'll make it that way either.
I'm 99% sure the '05 w/MACH will hold 4 bags though. And that's all you really need unless you're going to a course that allows fivesomes.
Honda's market share here in the U.S. is smaller than I thought?? 6.9%?? DOWN .4%??
You want a more outlandish J.D. Power study, check out the one for customer loyalty. The Focus leads the small car segment. How??? The car has only been out for what? 4 years? Who is already buying another, especially if they owned one of the first?
Those should give you enough to close that topic. let's go back to comparing features of these two vehicles so shoppers can benefit now.
Escape
Vue
Santa Fe
Equinox
They're listed in reverse order of finish. YIKES!
Saw it but haven't read it yet. Word on another forum is that they still said all good things about the Escape but it's styling and sticker price (not what you really pay for it) were the big hits against it. They really picked a bad trim to compare too. I guess they used the XLT Sport which costs a good bit more than a regular XLT due to some extra appearance items like step bars and painted cladding. You can get a base Limited for about the same price which not only looks better, but it has some nice extras, like leather, that probably would have helped out in the "value" category.
Apparently the Escape was the best off-roader too. The others must be pretty pathetic.
The Santa Fe ranked higher solely due to it's value and the VUE's ONLY good point was it's Honda powertrain. Must be one seriously good powertrain because I know someone who owns a VUE Redline and it still suffers from the same crappy VUE interior parts and quality. After seeing the wheel/tire pkg on it I came to the conclusion that that thing's going to be a sled in the snow too. I'd like to know who suckered her into buying the Redline as opposed to the regular version in an area that gets snow 5 months out of the year. IIRC GM is not buying the Honda powertrain after MY 2004 either. Get 'em while you can.
The Equinox is new. Have you ever known MT to not rank the new kid on the block at the top? I've seen an Equinox up close. Think VUE with a better exterior. I wasn't impressed.
Again, I have not read the comparo yet. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
I'm also still happy with our '05 Escape. I don't like the other three in that comparo at all, even though we also shopped for two of them recently. I was a little disappointed by the article but in the end I know I (actually my wife) won.
I was suprised to see M/T rank the Santa Fe high on value. If it was a value test and not a performance test, why not include the CR-V? Sure, it doesn't have a V6 but, that isn't cause Honda couldn't do it, it's cause they have a 4 that can hang with the sixes. Excluding a vehicle cause it doesn't have a 6 then giving big points for value is lame IMO.
Pretty inconsistent review if you ask me. The Escape was also dogged for chrome bezels on the speedo and tach.. big deal.
And why not test the Tribute? They never test the Trib. Mazda always gets the short end of the stick. Incentives, dealer network, press coverage, ad money...
Where was the Liberty?
I'm a fan of the Equinox, sliding rear seats are a nice feature.