USED European Luxury Cars (pre 1990)

jrosasmc

When I talked with a local German car mechanic recently, he said that the 1989-95 BMW 525i is a much much better car than the 528e, but he also noted that the i has more electronic gadgets in it, which means more complexity and repairs. Correct?

Mr_Shiftright

Maybe so but it's worth it. The 528e is really a dog to drive. To give you an idea, I almost beat one 0-60 in my Mercedes 300 (non-turbo) diesel). Now THAT is humiliating.

I don't know what "gadgets" the mechanic is referring to aside from the usual power windows, mirrors, etc. Even a 528 has most of those, so I wouldn't shy away from a good deal on a 525i just because of some fear of possible future electrical glitches. Any old luxury car faces that risk.

im_brentwood

528e? That is the slow BMW...

The 5-speeds do 0-60 in Barely under 10 seconds, but most of them are automatics.. those are well over 12 secs 0-60.. Pretty weak! But they only have 121HP.. (88s do have a whopping 127 tho.. haha)

Bill

jrosasmc

And the 1988 hp increase really didn't make much of a difference, I presume.

vic19

I leased an MB 500SEL for 60 months. The car was very sensitive to tire wear and minimal tire imbalance. It would develop a slight vibration though the steering wheel. It was maddening for such an expensive car. I think I received $1,200 in a class action settle for this problem, or maybe it was other problems.

The car was under warranty for most of my ownership but it had plenty of problems. I remember getting up early many a morning to take the car to the dealer.

When I returned the car after 5 years, it was beginning to stay in low until it warmed up.

All in all it was one of the most troublesome vehicles I have owned.

Remember that you may find an independent mechanic that you like. But the cost of repair won't be much different from the dealer. The expense is at least partially in the complexity of the car and the cost of parts.

As an example, I had a 74 450SEL. The cruise control needed repair. I watched my mechanic just get to the part. It required him to remove a felt covered outer panel with about a hundred screws and then dismantle an inner panel with another hundred screws. Of course, he had to reverse the process. The labor took about an hour. All that was required was a change of a little canister. But of course, the MB didn't have wires dangling from under the dash like a typical American car.

Mr_Shiftright

Yep, they are generally very complex automobiles. This is one reason why I give people very guarded advice about buying used German luxury cars. You really need to have them checked over with a fine tooth comb.

Also, there is the issue of the competency level of many repair shops. I don't think most are up to the task with these cars. I know for certain that things like alignment and balancing can be a precise science and most people don't know what the hell they are doing.

We have a specialist here in Marin that everyone uses, from the Chevy dealer to the Ferrari dealer. So they don't even use their own alignment shops for certain problems!

tony114

What is the proper way to adjust a steering box on a 86 560 SL,

Mr_Shiftright

I don't know. I suspect Mercedes has a very detailed procedure for this. Best to consult the factory manuals. I bought a complete set for my 300D and it has proven itself invaluable.

gordbert

Tony114, try the site http://forums.mbnz.org/forums/

It has great source of info for MB owners.

jrosasmc

Would a 1972-89 MB SL be an easy car to learn how to work on and service yourself?

magnetophone

No

Mr_Shiftright

Most definitely not. Tough car to work on, and complex, too.

SammyP

A Mercedes-Benz 450SL is like a Model T to service and care for when compared with, say, a late 80's BMW 750iL or an early 90's Lexus LS 400.

Pre 1976, these cars had an iron V8 with single cams, mechanical fuel injection, manual climate control, no power seats, etc, etc.

These cars are Mercedes-Benzes. They are built to be serviced and have parts replaced.

Just buy a good service manual or service CD from Mercedes. That'll show one pretty much everything about these cars.

Come on, they are quite simple compared to say, a modern Toyota Camry!

look at www.mercedesshop.com for more info about these cars.

Mr_Shiftright

The poster specifically asked about 72-89 SLs, not just pre 76, and that therefore includes some very sophisticated machinery I think.

I know you were just making a point, but really a 450SL is hardly a Model T. Any injection pump work has to be shipped to a specialist (even the Mercedes dealer doesn't work on it) and an engine rebuild is an easy $10,000 + proposition.

Also they are very precise cars. When you work on them you had better know exactly what you are doing regarding setting this specification or shimming that or which way to turn a screw. You simply don't have the slack you do in a Japanese car (or the access in most cases).

It's hardly the car for a learner is all I'm saying. If you are a professional wrench, then sure, perhaps an old SL is easier to diagnose than a modern Camry, but for a first time it's not the car I would recommend practicing on, because carelessness will be punished.

billp8

...I would like a "weekend/holiday" Benz. My choices are an E320 Coupe (say, 93-95) or a 96-97 SL 320. I only need space for 2 plus luggage for a weekend, and would probably drive the car no more than 2-3 thousand miles per year. I am looking for that, plus reliability. (I thought about a 93-95 E320 Convertible, but the depreciation seems very slow in coming with them). Your recommendations?

Mr_Shiftright

Bill I think you should post this in the boards with modern cars, as this board is only for "classics" so-called, or at least "old cars". So I'd try the Coupes board for this question.

Shifty

jrosasmc

I've read in the BMW Buyer's Guide and Road & Track reports that 1975-78 530i models (the first U.S. 5-Series cars) are to be stayed away from. Why is that? Did these early Bimmers have some sort of problem that made them unreliable?

Mr_Shiftright

The late 70s was not a good time for any automaker. They were struggling with emissions requirements and often implemented technology that was less than wonderful.

I believe the 530i suffered from cracked cylinder heads, and in fact this is something you have to watch out for in any 70-80s BMW, even the 325.

jrosasmc

325- both "eta" and i models?

Mr_Shiftright

Any used 325 needs a careful look if it isn't running right. The heads will crack now and then.
Same for any 70s and 80s BMW.

jrosasmc

I've also heard that any '70s and '80s BMW will suffer from some electrical glitches now and then. That area appears to be an Achilles' heel for certain Bimmers, especially the 7-Series, which I believe had an especially complex electrical system, even when all-new for 1978.

Same goes for the early Saab 900s (1979-85). I've seen many an old 900 with plenty of electrical and transmission problems.

Mr_Shiftright

Well, there's nothing quite so troublesome as old technology that is also complex. This holds true for many luxury cars from the 80s. These cars wear out and many of them have not had the best of care anyway, having fallen into the hands of bargain hunters. This is why the lucury 4-door sedans will not survive.

jrosasmc

You were also talking about the digital-laden domestic luxury cars from the '80s as well, I presume? Because those things can, and will be, potentially troublesome.

rubicon52

I was considering getting a new, stripped BMW because it is a quality car with a minimum of gadgets and power options. However, I was told that stripped BMWs have resale problems. It seems to me that if a second buyer wanted to avoid problems (especially electrical gremlins)on a German luxury car that was out of warranty that a used, stripped BMW would make perfect sense. But, apparently this is not the case.

speedshift

No, I think that kind of buyer wants bells and whistles. The buyer who buys a used Bimmer wants the same things except he's got less money (maybe). For that kind of money people want "stuff". There are very few minimalists.

Mr_Shiftright

That's true, unless the person wanted to build a real track car. Then less is more.

strand67

Can anyone give there thoughts on a 1990 350 SDL turbo?? Good or bad!! As far as the motor is concerned, 117000 mi & had a new factory motor around 40,000 , short block I think!! Asking $ 13,000 , one owner, What would I expect to pay fr yr. maint??? I know you stopped at 1989, I was wondering if you could strech it a- bit??

Thanks!!!

im_brentwood

A) Price is too high. Car is worth $7,000 or so wholesale, and about $9,000-9,500 retail.

$13K? With 65K miles perhaps.

The one to get is the 300SDL. 350s are nice, but the engien problems they had were de to the injectors. They would leak, fuel would leak in the cylinders.. and the rods would get bent.

Bill

Mr_Shiftright

Certainly overpriced. Thank him and walk away. 117K is a lot of miles for any car. At least half the useful life is already over.

lemko

...the 1986 Mercedes 420 SEL? There's a lady at work who's interested in selling her car and I expressed some mild interest in buying it.

ghulet

...is 117k 'a lot of miles for any car', especially a Mercedes? I think we used to think that way back when cars weren't expected to last past 100k, but it doesn't seem like so many miles any more to me. I guess it depends on how well the car is cared for.

Lemko, how much is the woman asking for the 420? Those are really nice cars, but considering it's 16 years old, it's likely not worth more than about $4500 unless it's quite cherry or has very low miles.

burdawg

The later model 420's are nicer, say about 1989 to 1992, with a lot of upgrades and changes to the body. Remember that in these years an SEL was really a long or extended body. Very large car, very comfortable but expensive to own and operate.
There seems to be an abundant supply of these in Florida with low miles, probably since many of the residents are retired seniors who would be more apt to own a car like this. Actually, I've been casually looking for one of these for myself for some time.

Mr_Shiftright

It's my opinion that 117K is a lot of miles for any car. It is past warranty certainly and past the time when many major components are expected (and designed) to fail--this includes suspension, alternator, water pump, etc. And Benz parts are not Chevy parts. You could sink a ton into a 117K Mercedes.

Perhaps the basic powertrain on a Mercedes would be ok at 117K but that is still four times (almost 5) around the earth! Even if the car runs to 200K with good care, the last half of any car's life certainly will not be as troublefree as the first half. How could it be?

The real point though is not reliability but VALUE. If a car has 117K on it, you don't pay the same price as when it had 50K. So the mileage is very important when buying an old Benz, and the seller has to recognize this. This talk of "oh, a Benz can go 300K" is just a fable because in fact any car can go 300K if you put enough money into it.

I think a quick check of odometers in wrecking yards will show that most cars do not even exceed 150K much less 300K. One cannot base one's buying decisions on the 2% upper percentile of odds, but rather upon the vast center percentile.

c43amg7

The 420SEL is the 126 body type which many Benzers think was (with the late '80s /early 90s 300E) the best car Mercedes ever made (tho the diesel-heads also make a case for their '80s cars). The 560SEL is also great if you want even more engine, but the rear air suspension can be expensive if not maintained.

I have had an '88 420SEL for a year and a half -- a grandparents' car which came in at the local M-B dealer with 75,000 miles and I bought as a first car for my 17-year old daughter and family road car to keep the miles off our newer leased cars.

Paid $11,000 and put in about $7,000 over a year and a half -- everything from timing chain/guides/tensioner to all fluids (including differential, transmission, etc.) to renewal of all wear items (front suspension, radiator, smog pump, brakes, shocks, etc.) -- car was in good original condition, but had not been super maintained and I wanted to do all the 100,000 mile replacement and renewal early to insure absolute reliability. Mobil 1 every 3,000 miles (no oil leaks despite switchover from fossil oil) and will regularly change all fluids -- e.g., transmision every 25,000, etc.

Runs like new, great highway car with massive heft and interior room while surprisingly agile for its bulk -- no one builds them this way anymore with battleship gauge steel and mechanics instead of electronics (e.g., the famous M-B cone vacuum door locks which will work underwater). Quality of materials and elegance of engineering (compare mechanical inside of door to any US car) is unbeatable -- much debate among Benz fanatics as to whether the newer, lighter, more fuel efficient and quicker/more agile but electronics-dependent new M-Bs are actually a step backwards. 420SEL is easy to work on if you're mechanically inclined, excellent independent mechanics readily available and OEM parts at 2/3 retail through M-B USA club and other discount parts dealers.

Key is to put the $$ in either by renovating a good low mileage car (probably the more expensive route, but you know exactly what's been done) or buy one that's been meticulously maintained with all records -- I would not be afraid of a 117,000 mile 420SEL that met these standards, but an expert inspection is a must.

BTW, the comment "The later model 420's are nicer, say about 1989 to 1992, with a lot of upgrades and changes to the body" is wrong. There is no '92 126 cars (the 140 model, which were made from '92-'99, and look like the LS400, started then] and actually there were no significant changes in the '89 - '91 later models from the '86 - '88 -- primarily different leather pattern for seats and doors, passenger airbag standard from '89 and ASR option available in '91 -- see http://www.mbusa.com/brand/container.jsp?/overview [can'tget entire URL here due to Edwards character limitations] and go to S class for '88 - '91 for 420SEL.

jrosasmc

I also like the W126 sedans. However, don't forget the Volvo 760 and 960; you can also make a case for them if you can get over their maintenance-intensive engines.

burdawg

When I stated that the later 420's are nicer, it was just an opinion, and the reasons you said were exactly why, upgrades to the "body" which includes the interior. Those small changes you mentioned come across in a big way when comparing a 86 - 88 to a later model. As for the 126 body being out of production after the 91 model, well that's true, but that's why I said "about 1989 to 1992".

Mr_Shiftright

I think the Volvo 760s and 960s are nothing near the equal of a Benz, and if you look at the reliability records for these cars they are very poor indeed. Big, squarish clumsy cars that are riding on the Volvo name but don't deliver, IMO.

C43 -- you can sometimes defeat the Edmunds prohibition on too long a URL by clicking on spellcheck first and then posting the URL. This often works.

magnetophone

Well what Volvo models do live up to the Volvo name? I mean, the 740 is very much the archetypal Volvo IMO.

Mr_Shiftright

No Volvo of the past 30 years lives up to the Volvo reputation.

A strong steel toolbox is still a toolbox, not a fine piece of cabinetry. 740s are not refined, very boxy and humorless, unattractively styled, semi-reliable (average at best), clumsy to drive-- but other than that they are okay. Nothing like a Benz, but they are a decent transportation module.

jrosasmc

You might like this: I spotted a '65 Mercedes 300SE coupe at a local dealership this afternoon. The odometer read 51,241 miles, so there's no knowing how many times it's turned over. But I gave the car a thorough look-over, and it appears to be pretty solid, all electrics work (including the emergency blinkers), and the body doesn't appear to have any rust on it. But are there other things that a prospective 300SE coupe/cabriolet buyer has to watch out for, such as air suspension, etc? And did that model have a six-cylinder engine?

jrosasmc

One more thing: Why do you say that no Volvo of the past 30 years lives up to the reputation?

c43amg7

No offense meant by my pointing out that the only three items of (a) different leather patterns, (b) passenger airbag (optional also in '88 126s, standard thereafter) and (c) optional ASR in '91 hardly qualified as "a lot of upgrades and changes to the body" -- if they make a difference to you and you find a '91 with the optional ASR, then so be it.

In fact, I thought by your mention of '92 you were comparing the W140 which came in in '92 to the W126 -- there are indeed very substantial changes/upgrades here and an interesting debate as to whether someone wanting a big body Benz should buy an early 140 vs a later 126.

I would personally be reluctant to do so in light of the complexity of the 140s, the A/C evaporator issue ($$$$) and their reputation as the most expensive M-Bs to maintain -- OK, the old Pullman 600s are even more so, but they are getting rare now, undoubtedly due to the costs of keeping one on the road. A late 140 with a Starmark warranty for a coextensive lease term might be a different issue, but you can buy a 126 for a year's lease payments on a '99 S500.

Mr_Shiftright

1965 300SE -- oh, I wouldn't go near that car, don't even consider it.Run away fast. Complex, old fashioned, rust prone, drives like a big barge, outrageous repair costs and really no great potential future value.

If you want a good "driver" Mercedes coupe, consider the newer 250C or 280C. Also not destined for any great value, but a much better (and prettier) car than the old 300s. A lot cheaper to buy, too, $5K-7K for a nice one.

magnetophone

Well, having been both a Volvo owner and a Mercedes owner of cars of the same vintage (late 80's early 90's) I can attest that they are somewhat alike in some ways.

The 240/740 and the 300/190 both handle very similarly. They handle in a complacent, non-sporty RWD sort of way. They both feel similarly hefty and their steering feel is very similar.

However, the material and assembly quality and the engine quality of the Mercedes is far better.

amazon

I beg to differ on your statement that no Volvo has lived up to the Volvo name for 30 years. THe 240s are a good example.

Mr_Shiftright

VERY overrated car the Vovlo 240, in my opinion, and I'd like to present a case as for why that is:

First off, to be fair, most european cars from the 70s are over-rated by their owners or once-owners, who let nostalgia and a marked ability to ignore the car's faults get the best of them. Volvo 240s had soft camshafts, exhaust systems that fell off with alarming regularity, soft timing gears, weak u-joints, rather shabby interior plastic and trim, biodegradable paint jobs, truck-like steering, a regular sympathy of bumps and clunks, squeeky brakes that cannot be made quiet, noisy rough pushrod engines exhibiting every good aspect of 1930s tech. I could go on and on. Compared to a Benz, they were twenty years behind the times.

On the other hand, they had a strong basic structure and they were remarkably easy to fix (which you have to do a lot of if you were a conscientious owner, which most Volvo drivers of the tiime were decidedly not).

You bring me an average 240 Volvo that is in "great shape" and I'll find 25 things wrong with it that the owner has blissfully ignored. Fact is, most Volvo drivers of that time had pretty low expectations beyond that of basic "please get me there" and "make me feel safe". The standard joke of the 70s and 80s, which you can re-read in many auto magazines, is that "Volvos are made for people who hate cars". Not so true now, but sure was then I think.

There's only one real reason for the 240s longevity. It never had decent competition from other European makes. The Benz was in a higher class and price bracket, the Japanese generally lower, the American cars unacceptable to many middle class American buyers who wanted a semblance of an intelligent car, and other competitive European makes (Saab, Alfa, BMW) no great shakes in the reliability department either.

To give my argument some further weight, when Volvo tried to compete with Mercedes with the dreadful 164, the car failed miserably. Benz easily won that contest.

Nowadays, Volvo has made some great strides and I have more respect for the cars. The tech is very good, the styling (did Volvo even HAVE a styling department 20 years ago?!!) quite up to industry standard, the quality much better.

How can I say this delicately---compared to a Mercedes, a Volvo of the 70s and 80s is a rough pile of parts. Tough old cars, but very unrefined and no paragons of reliability by any means.

Show me a 200K old Volvo and I'll show you a pile of repair bills the size of the Manhattan phone book.

magnetophone

Well, I still disagree. My Volvo was fairly reliable and the only real problems were that it had a weak A/C, one of the plastic interior parts creaked off, the engine idled rough, and the sunroof button intermittently worked.

For a car I put 60K miles on in less than 2 years, and drove all the way to 220K miles, that's not bad at all. When I crashed it, even the 12-year-old airbag deployed.

jrosasmc

Magnet: That's quite impressive that a 12-year-old airbag deployed, and yet you never serviced it.

Mr. Shiftright: Could you possibly provide one reason why Irv Gordon has kept his P1800 for nearly 40 years?

magnetophone

No, I never serviced the airbag, but the car was serviced.

speedshift

I'd like to hear Irv address that issue.