USED European Luxury Cars (pre 1990)

ghulet

I know you weren't asking me what I don't like about the 190, but I hope nobody ever asks me to sit in the back seat of one. The 300 isn't exactly roomy, but the 190 is too tight. Otherwise it's OK, especially with the six (the four, no thanx, there are lots more fun cars out there for the money).

Mr_Shiftright

I just think it's too small and de-contented to be a real Benz. A Benz is supposed to be a strassen-kruezer, a dominant type of car. It's like.....well....a small elephant or a tiny lion, know what I mean?

jrosasmc

What about the 1992-97 Audi 100/A6? Now those have very spacious interiors.

magnetophone

Shiftright, my car has leather, sunroof, 2.6 V6 engine, CD changer, power seats, trip computer, climate control, and even the optional wheels. It's got just as many features of an 300E of the same vintage...

Granted, mine's the top of the and would option out at about 30K in 1992 dollars.

Mr_Shiftright

Maybe I'm just remembering the first 2.3s---not a good car.

jrosasmc

I remember the first 190Es from 1984-86. They were not great cars to own or drive. Agreed?

ghulet

......was the price. FYI, your 190E 2.6 optioned fully (it IS missing some 300E features: memory seat, telescoping memory steering wheel, likely headlight washers, among the more frivilous I can think of) is more like........

http://carguides.autotrader.com/at/ucars/UsedCars_compare.jsp?Ids=13052901,13052911

......so with leather (roof was a 'no-cost' option), probably about $35k.

ghulet

I'm not in love with the last-generation 3-series by any means. I think the interiors were terribly downmarket for their price and the black bumpers (I think '92 and maybe '93 only) looked really cheap. Also, BMW was (and still is) in love with the 'a la carte' optioning system, especially for the 3-series. Basically, this means the base price is for a car you don't want, and loaded with options it's like $5k more.

I do think though, especially in this image-conscious genre of cars (entry-level lux), a lot of people in '92 would have bought a 189hp new-style 325i over a 160hp 190 with essentially a nine year-old design, especially with a $5k price advantage.

merckx

I also don't want to criticize your obviously beloved 190,but I always felt that such a small car really needs to be front wheel drive. I'd read that the main reason Mercedes didn't do that is that the engines also needed to do duty in the E-Class.
Driving at 8-9/10ths does cry out for rear wheel drive,but who drives like that all the time? There are just too many practical reasons for a car that small to have FWD.
We car nuts can get to hung-up with theory-the curent debate about drive wheels is a great example. The 190 could have made a pretty little coupe,but the tiny rear doors,like the ones on the first BMW 3 sedan,are a little inelegant.
The proportions are a little ungainly.

magnetophone

Oh well, I like compact cars, and I like having the option of being a Mercedes and a compact car.

Merckx, so what do you think about the C320, should it be FWD? I should think not. It is after all the modern version of the 190.

magnetophone

I'm the kind of person who would buy the C230K "coupe" - I think it's a fantastic looking car.

merckx

The first C was a little bigger,the current one bigger still. Yet when I still sit in one,front or back,I find myself wanting more. So,yes,I'd probably rather even the current C be FWD.
One reason I bought a Passat last year was that I thought its proportions were perfect. It's small enough to still have a lot of "nippyness"about it,yet is plenty roomy inside.
The current CLK I don't care for at all-it's way too heavy about the C pillar.
However the new one about to go on sale I think is very handsome. Ironically,I've read a fair amount of criticism about it. Styling is SO subjective. But I do greatly admire the new one. The roll-down back windows are also a welcome return.

ghulet

My mom is (finally!) at least in the 'seriously contemplating' stage of replacing her '88 300E w/325k. She's considering a late-model used E320, and I'm trying to get her to also look at the last-generation BMW 740i/iL, too.

With a budget of ~$30k, which would you pick? I guess I'm interested in reliability and cost of maintenance especially. Mom's not quite as interested in speed or flash at this point. What year of each car, in general, can she expect to find on that budget?

Also, are there other cars you'd consider? She's been very happy with the 300 (understandable w/325k and one fatal-to-a-cow collision at 50mph, stepdad unscathed). Her main complaint about it is lack of rear seat room and 'relative' lack of power, both of which have improved a lot over almost fifteen years. I'm thinking I might try to steer her toward a new Passat also, though her perception would likely be that it's a 'step down' or that VWs are less safe than Mercedes, never mind the actual realities.

Thanks for any input.

im_brentwood

In my professional experience and opinion, the E320 would be a better choice from a reliability standpoint. Now, the 740iL is "bigger and nicer" but is more prone to expensive repairs...

Bill

jrosasmc

I would personally recommend a '95-'97 Volvo 850 or '96-'98 960/S90. I am leaving out the earliest years of those two models because they had plenty of glitches and teething problems, and even my own '93 850 is starting to give me trouble. Or, as an alternative, have her try out a '95-'97 Audi A6 or '95 Acura Legend. I have ridden in these models before and they are fabulous handlers with an excellent highway ride.

Mr_Shiftright

Yes, she could switch to Volvo but it will not feel like a Benz by any stretch, if she's hooked on that solid massive feeling.

I also don't recommend a BMW 740IL for a used vehicle.

An E320 would be fine. How about a used 500SL?

magnetophone

Wouldn't it be more sensible to go with an SL with a smaller engine? Aren't they more reliable than the 5.0?

Shiftright, having recently gone with my mother to shop for this cars in this very market, and I would say that the Volvos are not too far behind Mercedes, which is a testament to how bad Mercedes got there for a while.

I think a used E320 is a good prospect. You could also look at a 97-98 model 528i or 540i. I would also recommend a used A6 from like 1998. I know someone who got a used A6 from a local dealer with a 100,000 mile warranty, it was very nice. It was also a wagon.

ghulet, from BBC Top Gear:

5-series vs. E-class as a used purchase prospect.

"It's hard to choose a winner here...both are around the same price (though the BMW is generally cheaper)...However, while the Merc is a sedate motorway cruiser, the BMW is more of a driver's car with its agile chassis. The 5-series also has a more modern interior than the more traditional E-class. However, as the Mercedes is better built, it represents a better bet for very long-term ownership, so in the end the E-class comes out on top."

Mr_Shiftright

Oh, yeah, thanks for mentioning one of my favorite sedans...the BMW 528i. That would be a good alternative.

The SLs are fine but god forbid you ever have to repair the engine. You are looking at a $16,000 rebuild.

merckx

How about(and as a Benz nut I can't believe I'm saying this)a Lexus LS400/430? They seem slightly more feminine than the car nut E320(which is what I'd want)or 525i.
The LS is like a sensory deprivation tank-and when you're just cruising,that can be fun.
I think Lexus has achieved with this car what Rolls Royce used to talk about-a "ball of silk"feel throughout the car.

magnetophone

LS400's are another alternative, but some people just would never own a Lexus...

merckx

what do you think of the BMW 850Ci? I saw an ad for a 1991 for $16,000,which seems low. I've read that they don't command much on the used car market as many are afraid of them. Is this fear well-founded? Because it seems like you are getting a lot of car. I never really cared for them new,but I've never driven one.

jrosasmc

I think 8-Series cars are to be avoided; they will cost you very dearly in terms of parts, maintenance and repair expenses. And they are very complex and rely on a lot of electrical and electronic equipment. I think most people here would agree with me.

jrosasmc

Mr. Shiftright, I'm just curious: Are there any faults or bad points to be found in early '70s Porsche 911s? They seem to be great sports cars to buy from that era, with outstanding build quality and excellent handling. I'd just like to know if those 911s did have some problems, such as with the engine, transmission, suspension parts, etc. But I've seen many of them with high mileages.

speedshift

I think the operative phrase here is "I never really cared for them but...". If that's typical (and it seems to be, based on the 8's lack of success) then the only re-sale market for them is people looking for a lot of prestige car for not much money. That's okay, been there myself, but it suggests they're not a car worth their maintenance costs. That seems to be true of most if not all late-model luxury cars, but it would be even more true of the 8.

Maybe you throw away these cars when they need anything more than gas and oil. I'm still reeling from Shifty's suggestion that you scrap a Sovereign at 60k :-).

ghulet

...I suspect she'll get an E320.
She's had Japanese cars (Toyota Camry and Cressida from waaayy back) and sports cars, but she wants another sedan, especially since their 'other' car is a 944. A 500SL is probably out of the question. A Lexus LS may be an option, I'll try to get her to at least drive one, but it's gonna be a hard sell against the Mercedes. I like 528/525/540i, but I don't know how she feels about them. I know they have less room (interior and trunk) than the E320, so that may be a big strike right there.

Mr_Shiftright

Oh, c'mon, I didn't say "scrap" an XJ6 after 60K miiles--I only suggested selling it at that mileage as I felt that the cars from the early 90s might get troublesome as the miles pile up. Certainly maintenance costs will go up as parts wear.

PORSCHE 911 -- it depends on what years of 911 you are interested in. They all have their strengths and weaknesses, so I'd need to know specifically which year and model.

Generally, I like the 78-83 SCs the best for the early cars. I think they were among the best 911s ever made, and still very affordable.

jrosasmc

The model that interests me specifically is the '73 911E or S. I like the older look best. However, I fear that the '73s have power-sapping emissions equipment on them.

speedshift

Shifty, just for the heck of it, what about the earliest 911s, the T-E-S series up to about 1971? These are just old Porsches, right, not collectible? Probably down on power compared to the years you like. What's maintenance like on, say, the S? How fussy are they? How badly upside down would you be if you had to rebuild an engine? Speaking of upside down, how do they handle? Anything like a '65-up Corvair?

jrosasmc

Somebody mentioned to me in the past that the engine on the 1972-80 M-B 450SL will most likely cost over $10k just for a rebuild if it never needed one. True, right?

Also, I've read in many sources that these '70s SLs, while built very solidly, get terrible gas mileage and suffer in performance because of the early emissions controls.

Mr_Shiftright

A 450SL engine rebuild would cost closer to $15,000 here in California.

Early 911s -- I like the '73s if they have the CIS injection system (sometimes called 1973 & 1/2). The earlier cars have either webers or even solex on the very early ones, or mechanical injection. Then there are all kinds of other things to watch out for, like which type of half shafts the cars have, if they are using the rather troublesome hydropneumatic struts, if they have CD ignition or not. Lots of people like the 70-71 2.2 liters as their favorite of the "old" 911s, the pre-1973 ones. So really if you want an early 911, you need to do a lot of reading and research to pick through the pitfalls and get the best car with the best equipment on it. There is so much to know here!

One big thing to consider is that early 911s are kind of primitive. They are noisy, the heat and ventilation really sucks, and they aren't cheap to restore. If you want a 911 that feels reasonably modern and comfortable, you need to go to the 1978 on up SC models.

But all the early 911s are great drivers. A '65 Corvair is a joke next to them, unless it were a much modified Fitch Corvair, which is a great little car that could compare favorably to an early 911 except in build quality of course.

jrosasmc

Is the 450SL engine really that complex and difficult to work on?

speedshift

Shifty thanks, I've always admired the first 911s. Their primitiveness relative to later 911s would be part of the appeal--I think. It's been a long time since I've driven an older car and I appreciate refinement more than I used to. The '65 Corvair won't swap ends without warning and if the 911 handles better than that it's just a bonus.

Mr_Shiftright

The old 911s are still a real kick to drive. They are still exciting cars, even today.

450SL engines -- If you have to bore and re-piston an SL engine, it gets real expensive. Maybe $10,000 could get the job done, it really depends on the condition of the block and how many new parts you have to buy. The problem is that when you go to the trouble and expense of overhauling a Mercedes V8 you are going to want to re-core the radiator, get a new water pump on there and probably overhaul the injection pump.

jrosasmc

That sure looks like a job that would require long hours of labor. At least it would probably make the engine better than when it was originally built at the factory.

ranchero

Mr. Shiftright & others willing to comment: please discuss relative merits of 1990 to 1993 300SL versus same years' 500SL. Also, please discuss the five speed manual 300SL versus the automatic in the same car. Prices? Durability? Reliability? Engine/transmission maintenance & repair costs? I am starting to be attracted by the 300SL five speed manual and would like comment from those who know. I am anticipating hearing that the 500SL is the only way to go but I prefer a manual (if I can find the car). Also, was the manual available in the later SL320 from MY 1994 and on? Thanks for any advice. Ranchero

Mr_Shiftright

I think the question is really asking for a very subjective opinion as to your preferences.

For me, the more power an SL has, the better, since it is a very heavy car that needs to get out of its own way. Also, Mercedes 6 cylinder engines are not exactly BMWs. I find them a bit clunky.

As for the transmission, an SL should be an automatic. This is a comfy cruising car, a GT car, not a sportscar. Worst thing in the world for me is trying to shift a big heavy car. It doesn't fit with the character of the car or its prestige. Ditto for any big coupe, sedan or whatever.

jrosasmc

Some people call cars such as the SL or Volvo P1800 sports cars. Mr. Shiftright is correct, both of these European classics are definitely cruising GT tourers. The Porsche 911 is obviously a full-blown sports car.

magnetophone

Did anyone call the Volvo P1800 a sports car?

rubicon52

I know this isn't a used German car, but this seems like a knowledgable group so I'm interested in your opinion. I figured that with the high resale value of BMWs and using European Delivery (I can fly to Europe for free), buying the 325 and selling in 3 years would not cost me much more than a Honda. A stripped 325 appeals to me because I'm interested in a quality car without a lot of options. Will I have trouble reselling a stripped 325? My reasoning (which may be completely wrong) is that I won't because it would be a cheap way for someone to get into a BMW. Also, Why is the resale value on BMWs so high? I've heard that once the warranty expires, the maintenance cost on a BMW can be high. This would seem to make it a used car to stay away from. Thanks.

Mr_Shiftright

I think a stripped BMW would be very difficult to sell, yes, because even the cheapest cars nowadays come very well equipped. I'd say you'd have a real loser on your hands there.

Resale value is closely tied to supply and demand.

speedshift

You'll notice that BMW doesn't have to move the 3 series with 0% financing, rebates or subsidized leases. When I was looking at them a year ago they were selling coupes and sedans as fast as they came in, although it seemed like wagons were a little soft. If they're in that much demand new, they'll be in that much demand used.

The 3 series is sold as an entry luxury car and any 3 without the usual luxury options won't have strong resale value. I'd guess that even a 5 speed would be a big deduct, ironic for a car that's so much fun with a stick.

Buying a stripped anything is a bad idea. You take a beating when you trade it in or sell it. People like their luxury these days, even in entry-level cars. We are not a nation of minimalists.

rubicon52

Thanks for the advice. Sounds like if I want to get a stripped 325, I should probably lease and let the dealer worry about reselling it.

ranchero

Thanks for the comments. I am not looking for a sports car but a boulevard cruiser - think a two seat Riviera or, well, a Reatta. I like the very well integrated hardtop on an SL, the parts availability, the safety and the potential to get a manual (which I prefer). I do know that the 2.8 litre six in '70s & '80s Mercedes was a real boat anchor; is the 3.0 in the '90s SL that bad? And any comments about the 3.0 six durability or reliability. Appreciate the input!

speedshift

Well, your lease payments depend on the car's estimated resale value at the end of the lease. Your lease payments are paying for the car's depreciation so the better it holds its value the lower your payments, generally speaking. I imagine any lessor will know the lack of options kills the car's resale value and factor this into your lease payment. You could end up with a lot less car for only a minimal difference in monthly payments. I used to try to play the angles too but the industry--any industry--is usually one step ahead of us.

sirlandy

I'm requesting some HELP regarding the purchasing a used 1988 BMW 535is. The body is rust free and straight. The engine is a 6cyl auto with 220K miles. The owner has had the car for 8 months and says it 'runs like a champ'. The car is lic.plated and insured. The car could use some gas in it's belly- haven't taken it for a ride yet.. The driver's side window does not operate, what's the cost to fix? Also needs a new hose for tranny, cost on this? Tires seem good. Engine was turned over and sounds good. Doesn't use any oil. Owner wants $1700 O.B.O.

IF i were to buy the car, what could i expect in terms of repair, maintenance, and performance? What's the life expectancy of this car? How many more miles could it run well for? What would make for a 'best offer' if it's a good runner?

I currently own a modest 1987 Chevy Caprice Brougham with 183K miles on the body and about 100K miles on it's 2nd engine. Could I make the jump and be satisfied? Please also keep in mind I paid $1200 for my Chevy, and have put about $3500 in repairs to maintain it in good running condition since owning it in early 1996, so I'm familiar with repairs. Also, it would be my 'only' car that i would need to make a 16 mile round trip commute to school in, so the transportation part would be neccessary. Thank You. All comments will be appreciated. Sirlandy/Joe Anderson.

im_brentwood

Reasonable enough price. LOTS of stuffr to watch tho. 220K is still 220K.

Is it an Automatic? Has it been rebuilt semi-recently? If not, it is on borrowed time. It uses a ZF 4HP22EH Tranny which is uncheap to rebuild or buy used.

Watch for:

Front end bushing wear
Warped Rotors
Badly clicking valves (Injectors on those DO "click" though...)
Electrical Demons
Bad windows are often bad window switches. $22 part, try swapping it. Otherwise they blow motors and those aint cheap.
Remember, that was a $40K car new and in 2002 $$ that's closer to $65,000. Maintinence is not terribly cheap. A Cap and Rotor is over $100. Proper Plug wires are $100. The correct Spark Plugs, WR9LSs are $5-6 each (Bosch Silvers). Platinums dont work well.

Tranny hose scares me... Has it been driven low on fluid? FIgure $100-150 for the hose itself.

TIres... be careful there. OEM on them were 390mm "TRX" Rims. They use 200-60VR390 Michelin TRX tires (Although Avon CR18s also come in this size and are cheaper and better...).

Cheaper is relative. A proper set of Millimetric tires costs $600. It is quite probably on 15" or 16" rims by now. You can also go 220-55VR390 with TRXs or Avon CR28s.

E28s are great cars as long as you get a 533i or 535i/535is. They are a joy to drive. Fast, good handling cars that are now awfully cheap to buy. However, as a reference, My dealership just sold a 1988 535i with 125K correct miles that was probably as nice as one exists for $4,500. FULL History, One Owner since 1991, no rust, etc.. That car needed nothing. Absolutely nothing.

With proper care I have seen those motors break 300K miles many times. Its' probably the best engine BMW ever made. But this is a 15 year old car with a lot of miles..... Be cautious!

Bill

jrosasmc

As a point of reference, my dad once test-drove an '88 528e automatic a couple of years ago. Even with the hp increase that year, he said that car was one of the biggest dogs in terms of performance that he had ever driven. In fact, his '92 Jeep Cherokee 4.0 could blow the doors off that BMW, because that has so much acceleration. Now that's power!

Mr_Shiftright

220K is a LOT of miles, so you have to have reasonable expectations. I suppose if the car checks out very well you could take a chance. But really, you are going to have to put money in this car, and you might as well just save up and buy something with fewer miles.

What's this "hose" for the transmission? This isn't one of those "oh, it doesn't shift very well but all it needs is a hose" stories, is it? (to which I always ask--well, if it's just a hose why didn't you put it on rather than try to sell a car with a malfunctioning transmission?)

Power window repairs can be simple or expensive, it really depends.

528e---that was a dog of a car, the 535 should be a much better performer. However, this car should be checked for a cracked cylinder head, in case it's not running very well.

All in all, I'd be very wary of an old BMW with so many miles. Basically, with 220K the car is worth nothing but its spare parts. More like $1,000 would be a fair price.

speedshift

I'm real skeptical of a seller who tries to sell a car with no gas in it. I ran across that once so I took out a few spark plugs and they were oil fouled. Engine was shot.

c1rybick

And I bet she loved that Cressida, didn't she? I drive Japanese luxury, and it's 17 years old and still running strong, although there's been so many defered maintenance items that I can't wait to get a Passat. No way would mom buy me a used luxury German car, but a used German car she can stand (although the A4's pretty nice, it's kind of small).