USED European Luxury Cars (pre 1990)

jrosasmc

How in the world did an MGA ($2,500) cost more than a lowly VW Bug in 1962 ($1,400)?

Mr_Shiftright

Convertibles are always more expensive to produce, for one thing, and the MGA had a real engine in it for another.

speedshift

MGAs were similar to VWs except that MGAs were fun, faster, handled, made you feel good and improved your appearance. And the top went down.

jrosasmc

And I'll bet the MGA 1600 Twin-Cam could really perform.

Mr_Shiftright

Yes, it did, but also blew up a lot. Now with modern lubricants and machining, they can hang together. Of course, VW engines blew up a lot, too.

ghulet

I guess Mom liked the Cressida (it was an '86), she put 50k miles on it in one year, then bought the '87 Porsche 944 she still has (not the best investment, but she always wanted a Porsche). The Cress was sold to a co-worker. It was a very nice car (I drove it a lot as a 17-year-old).

hbofinger

Now that I bought the '89 560 SEL (I just came over from the Jag Sovereign discussion topic) - what's a decent stereo with CD changer that anyone could recommed? Something that actually looks good and in style with the teutonic black interior? Also - should I replace the speakers? I have the original Becker, but the last owner put in an underpowered stereo/CD player (not changer) that looks too plasticky and Japanesy for this car, and sounds a bit tinny...

Any help would be appreciated.

Mr_Shiftright

You can just throw that Becker over a fence for all the good it is.

I like am/fm CD units with DIALS. They look more appropriate on older cars. Hard to find, though, and I doubt you'd ever find one with a tuner Dial (knob). But you might find one with a volume knob at least. You could also think about under the seat or glovebox installations but that's a hassle of course.

Maybe something could be fitted into the console, I don't know, I'd have to look at it.

jrosasmc

You mentioned last time that the MGA engines needed proper lubrication and machining to keep them running. Didn't the early Porsche 911 engines (1965-70) need valve adjustments and tune-ups like every 3-4,000 miles just to keep them in proper running condition?

Also, concerning the famous Volvo B18 engine from the '60s, why didn't it blow up on a consistent basis just like the other European-made engines (i.e., Fiat, Renault, etc.)? My personal guess is that the five-main-bearing crankshaft was just too strong to break. I've also heard that the four-cylinder in Mercedes 190SLs from the early '60s is also like the B18: unbreakable and reliable.

speedshift

The MG engine (cooking version with no overhead cams) is extremely rugged, at least based on my experience. Then again I had one of the first five bearing engines in my '65 (I think, I never checked). I don't know what the problem was with the cammer but it probably had to do with taking a relatively low-revving (5500 rpm redline) engine and turning it into a screamer without commensurate beefing up of the bottom end and oiling.

Personally I think the B engine was great, not a high revver but very smooth and willing up to 5500 and with excellent flexibility. And the shifter...I could write poems about it. Better than the vaunted Miata, more direct and mechanical feeling. Good ride and handling compromise from the antique suspension. Tons of personality. Just a great overall package, with the whole being greater than the sum of its parts.

And a great German luxury car ;-).

Mr_Shiftright

Yes, exactly, I thought you were referring to the MGA twin-cam engine, which was basically a hand grenade waiting to blow up. The normal high production MGB 1.8 liter was a rugged engine and as good as any B18 Volvo (which had its weak points, too).

The MB 190SL is basically just a Mercedes 180 sedan with a different body plopped on it, so it's a slow heavy car with all the merits and demerits of a 180 sedan.

Porsche engines of the 70s are very tough. Sure they need some maintenance and adjustment but of all the engines you named the 911 engine is probably the hardest to kill. It is beautifully made, in a way that MGB and Volvo could not aspire to.

hbofinger

Ditto completely on the dials and knobs for a stereo. Some of these new units you can't even turn off!

This car looks mint, absolutely stunning, black exterior and black interior. This Clarion unit the last owner put in is a complete eye sore (and ear sore!) next to the woodwork. And most of the other aftermarket units I see look like minature boom boxes - you get dizzy just looking at them.

Oh well - the search continues...

starrow68

Drove an MG 72 to 84, speedo and odometer broke at 11k miles(never fixed), no idea how many miles it went but under about 85 it purred for lots of long trips. Did 10k miles before bringing it back to the States and then did Colorado once, LV regularly, and So. Cal. 4 to 6 times a year from Nor. Calif., during those 12 years, in addition to 40 mile daily commute, lots of miles. When it was rebuilt at that time the guy working on it asked me to come in and see it compared to another job he had, Italian if I remember, and the MG pan had 'no' sludge, I mean wipe your finger and get a smear. The other car had 1/2" build up he cut out with a putty knife and said that was normal, if a little excessive. Did regular oil changes but even he was surprised, said he'd never seen it before and he specialized in German and Italian cars. I once heard that the MG was an old 1940's tractor block blueprint, but don't know it that was true.

jrosasmc

I've seen the evolution of German cars and other Europeans over the last 20 years; they seem to come out with the newest innovations and updates so that their products can be better and remain competitive.

Concerning American cars, would you agree that '60s domestics were basically just the same as those from the '30s, and the domestics from the '90s were the exact same things as those from the '60s?

Mr_Shiftright

WEll, no, that doesn't quite add up, but suffice it to say that the Europeans and Japanese automakers have been whomping the US in technical innovations for the last 40 years or so, if not more; however, this is not to say the US hasn't come up with a few things, like air bags and (for what it's worth) heads up display. But just about every innovative feature you know and love on a modern car was first put into production by Europe or Japan, that is the sad truth.

On the other hand, the US is very good at production technology and building things inexpensively. Also, some of our other technologies do rival the foreign competitors or excel them, such as computers and weapons.

speedshift

Shifty, don't forget the advances we've made in manufacturer-subsidized financing.

div2

I'm just getting caught up in this topic but I think I know why that 750 was only firing on one bank of cylinders: BMW chose to use two six cylinder Motronic ECUs-one for each bank- on the V12 rather than have Bosch develop a twelve cylinder unit. BMW advertised that if one ECU failed that it was still possible to limp home at 130 mph on six cylinders. I bet Shifty's 750il had one nearly dead ECU.

Mr_Shiftright

Possible, very possible, although usually when an ECU fails, it fails, it doesn't spring back to life now and then. Also, we were getting spark and injector impulse. I gotta call and ask what's up with that car.

im_brentwood

I dunno, I have seen a couple of them where its' like a bad dry solder joint on a circuit board or something.. contact is intermittent..etc...

Bill

Mr_Shiftright

Yeah, you get lucky sometimes, I have seen that, too, and hey, it's worth a shot to check all connections. But it's not the likely scenario is what I'm saying, and Sherlock Holmes always said to first persue the obvious before getting into the improbable.

im_brentwood

Ya know...

Even if all else fails, for $1,500-2K you cant get hurt. I mean, even describing it accurately, you'd still get close to $4,000 on eBay for that car.

Bill

Mr_Shiftright

I thought of that, Bill, but in this case I was concerned about digging into the car to the point where it wouldn't run at all (which is apparently its present state). I like to buy and sell cars where all I have to do is run a garden hose over it. If I start fixing up a car, invariably I do too much because I notice too much. I think the best salesmen are those who aren't too technically minded. I'm such a fool I'd probably end up replacing the shock absorbers whereas half the people on Ebay wouldn't even notice they were worn.

speedshift

The trick is to never drive the cars you buy to sell. That way you don't notice the "little things" that'll bury you. That yellow '62 Cad Parm is looking at is a great example of how to do it profitably. I used to call them "whited sepulcres", New Testament-speak for whitewashed tombs, although I don't think that phrase is going to catch on.

Mr_Shiftright

We used to call big American cars "stoves" back in the 80s when you couldn't sell them.

lancerfixer

Have you considered something like this to replace your Becker?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1350831560

I was faced with a similar situation when replacing the OEM stereo in my Volvo 740...most stereos would have looked woefully out of place in the Brick's dash, with the exception of a Nakamichi or a Blaupunkt. The Nakamichi is definitely a better product, but they're a bit pricey and a dealer was really hard to find near where I live. I got my Blau on eBay for $85. It sounds pretty darn good and looks like it belongs in the dashboard of an old Volvo.

hbofinger

Thanks for the tip - funny you would mention those two brands, because that's where I am heading. Though the Blaupunkt on eBay still looks a bit busy. But I think it'll end up being a Nakamichi. I'm glad I'm not alone.

Mr. Shiftright -
I agree with you in the technical perfectionism that happens when you get to know a car. This has happened to me on two cars - and a couple of years ago I had an airplane, and everything just had to be perfect! When it's not new, I compulsively want to fix all the things that bug me, no matter how minute they seem. It's an illness. I'd be very bad in the car business. (I am originally from Stuttgart, Germany, and this is my first car from my home town...)

Now I have a quick question - when I do the timing chain on the 560 SEL, should I also do the tensioner? I know on the Miata I had to do it in addition with the belt, but this is an entire different beast, the tensioner being hydraulically driven by the engine oil.

Mr_Shiftright

I would at least inspect the tensioner carefully for wear and certainly think about replacing whatever guides the chain in the case. I have seen chain guides fail even on Toyotas and it is a mess when it does. This is a big job on a 560SL and you don't want to be in there twice.

Another reason I never make money on cars is that when I repair something I do it thoroughly.

hbofinger

Funny thing. The timing chain and tensioner seem easy - you don't have to remove the timing chain cover. According to the Benz manual, the new chain is simply guided in using the old timing chain, and all you have to do is the connecting link. I.e. all that needs to be removed are the valve covers and the right hand rockers. The guides, however, look like a true and genuine pain... I'd hate to have to pull the cover!

Mr_Shiftright

And DON'T drop the chain!!!

hbofinger

I am aware that I should not be gong too technical here. What's a good board (or thread here at Edmunds) where I can get technical? This question relates to rough idle on the 560 SEL after it has completely warmed up (not before). I suspect the O2 sensor, but don't know, and I don't know if I should ask here?

Thanks...

Mr_Shiftright

Probably if you are getting that specific you should be on one of the Benz message boards on the Internet, but you know, this kind of thing is very hard to diagnose on line anyway. It could be so many things.

Simplest check would be vacuum leaks in all hoses, piping, intake seals, etc. A bad O2 will show up in a tailpipe reading, so no need to guess on that. Obviously the cold start enrichment is helping the idle, so we are running lean after warm up I'd suspect.

c43amg7

Go to the Tech Help forum at www.mercedesshop.com.

Use the search function first -- it's quite likely your question has already been addressed and answered or you will find info that will enable you to refine it so as to get a better focused answer.

Mr_Shiftright

Good pointer, thanks for posting that.

hbofinger

Will check that board. Shiftright - I think you may be on target about being lean - found a little red on some of the spark plug tips...

Great board and great message threads here!

jrosasmc

Would you consider the VW Karmann-Ghia a true sports car in the sense of the term?

magnetophone

No!

lancerfixer

It's a rebodied Bug.

Mr_Shiftright

oh, god no. The Karmann Ghia is just a VW bug with all the merits and demerits. It's a rather evil-handling car that I wouldn't push very hard for safety reasons. In no sense a sports car as it has no power, no brakes and no handling, three essentials for any car worthy of the name "sports car".

But it's a cute thing to putter around the mall in or drive to the beach on a sunny day.

lancerfixer

I walk around the mall. The security guys frown on parking your car in front of Spencer Gifts. :-)

Mr_Shiftright

okay, okay, puttering TO the mall then

jrosasmc

Wow. So even with front discs, the K-G still had very poor braking abilities, right?

magnetophone

Who'd admit they ever went inside a Spencer gifts?!

im_brentwood

I sure as heck would!

And how in the heck is a Karmann-Ghia a Luxury car?

Bill

lancerfixer

Never said I went inside...it just seemed a good place to park my Karmann Ghia. :-)

tony114

tony114

What is the correct way to adjust the steering box on a 86 560 SL. The front end has been completely redone, a new box was installed but not propertly adjusted. I still get drift at almost any speed. Real bad at over 50 mph.

im_brentwood

Is it drift or play in the wheel/weight of the steering wheel?

If its darting back and forth... was the car properly aligned?

Bill

pwas

Im in the market for a used S class Mercedes. Or the Lexus LS400 (98-99). How reliable are the S Class mercedes and which is a better choice S320 or the S420? How is the cost of maintenance on the Mercedes using a good repair shop other than the dealer? You can also email your input and opinions. pwas1@msn.com

Mr_Shiftright

Hi pwas,

Sorry, you are on the wrong board.

This is a "classics" board. Please post your question in the Sedans Board and I'm sure you'll get some feedback.

Just scroll up to the top left of this board until you see the Select Topic drop down window, and click on Sedans!

Host

tony114

Supposedly it was aligned properly. I guess you can call it drift. There seems to be a 3 to 4 inch space while the steering wheel is centered that nothing happens. Once you turn the wheel beyond that dead space the car respond's, but then you get into that over steer thing, and the next thing you know your driving like a drunk. This does not happen while into a turn, because the steering wheel at that point is tight.