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USED European Luxury Cars (pre 1990)

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Comments

  • starrow68starrow68 Member Posts: 1,142
    Last tune they did on the 71 280SL the tech said he had cut it back to run leaner than previously. The idle did seem a little lower but it also cut out some when cold trying to get out of the garage. What are the impacts of deciding to run lean or rich? Real non-motor guy :).
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    It's a compromise on that car, because what he does is mess with the fuel injection pump, a very complex mechanical device. So if he leans it out on the low end, there is no predicting exactly what might happen on the high end of the rpm scale. I think the pump has something like 146 different cam positions, and so when he leans out at idle he is essentially affecting all the other 145 possibilities as well. I myself would prefer keeping it richer, and running hotter plugs, if you are a modest driver. If you are someone who really puts their foot into the Boschware, as the 280SL should really be driven, then there should be no reason to lean it out, as the very high rpm will keep things clean in there.

    I presume he leaned it out initially because your plugs were fouling and the car was running rough?

    I'd suggest you drive it more aggressively. Just wind the hell out of it, that's how Mercedes built it to run. They don't like to be babied, they foul, stall and stumble if you do.
  • ghuletghulet Member Posts: 2,564
    .....Used European Luxury Cars, or something. Today, I saw two wierdos: a mid-80s Maserati Quattroporte, sitting on a side street (it's been there for months), ice blue w/saddle leather, surface rust on badly fading paint (especially on the roof) and missing it's driver's side mirror. Kinda sad, since this was an $80k car new (back when a top-line Mercedes 500SEL cost about $50k).

    Also, a big Peugeot sedan, likely from the early '80s (not a 505 or that awful 405). It had four rectangular headlights. Anyone know what this is?
  • merckxmerckx Member Posts: 565
    It first came to the US in 1977,called the 604.
    it was put up against the Mercedes 280E,as it came standard with a lot of stuff. I always liked them,but I understand they are not much regarded now.
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    I remember the old 604 now. I have not seen one in many years; they are probably in junkyards by now. In its final year in the States (1983), it was simply a high-priced French sedan available with only a puny turbodiesel.

    Ghulet, you really know for a fact that the old Maserati Quattroporte cost $80k new back in the mid-80s? Well, my parents paid $80k for our house back in 1983!
  • ghuletghulet Member Posts: 2,564
    I seem to remember seeing a review of the Quattroporte in Road & Track or something, and for some reason, that $80k figure sticks out in my head. Lemme do some research and get back to you, though.

    The Peugeot 604 I saw was in really good shape (at least cosmetically), in a nice cranberry red with tan interior.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Yeah, they were expensive! I think POE was about $65,000, which is about what it would cost to get the one you saw running again.

    Actually, you can buy really really nice early ones for $10K, and good running ones needing just a little cosmetics for around $6,500. The later models cost a bit more, but they are also better cars.

    The best thing to do with a 4Porto is to buy a junk one and just sit naked in that great leather interior.
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    Do you remember anything at all about the Pug 604?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I've tried to blot it out of my memory. This car goes way back to 1977, when it was a V-6, then it switched to a turbo diesel in around 81 or so? Not a good car, although it did have a few charming French attributes that Peugeot is noted for, like a great ride. With the directional arm on the right side, and a steering column more suited to a bus, and typical Peugeot breakdown-a-week durability, the thing was doomed. I think it lasted in the US until around 1984. There were many unhappy owners. The idea of this thing competing with a Mercedes Benz is a bit of a bad joke.

    Nonetheless, I'd buy one for $500 if it was perfect.
  • ghuletghulet Member Posts: 2,564
    Again, I can't remember the number (504 maybe?), but a neighbor had an early or mid-70s Peugeot sedan, with kind of a sloping trunk and slightly canted headlight surrounds. It was kind of a cool car at the time, when it was running. I remember it had the directional on the right, I think power windows, manual sunroof and automatic transmission.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Not a bad car, the 504. You can get by with one of those, but that's the only one I'd ever recommend personally. But still, it's no Benz. More like the French Buick...er...I mean BOO-EEEK
  • magnetophonemagnetophone Member Posts: 605
    Well, Bouiques (Buicks) weren't so bad in the early 70's.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Mais, non, and the 504 wasn't bad either. I owned two of them and had pretty good luck with them.
  • ghuletghulet Member Posts: 2,564
    That Maserati Quattroporte I mentioned a few posts back does run, it was parked on the other side of the same street today.
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    I saw a decent, running '82 VW Jetta 2-door not too long ago here on my college campus. Haven't seen a first-gen coupe in at least a decade. They probably all rusted away.
  • magnetophonemagnetophone Member Posts: 605
    I love old Maseratis!
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    I do too, but the reliability/durability is questionable.
  • ghuletghulet Member Posts: 2,564
    .......that there are enough twenty year old Maseratis around (especially Quattroportes) to accurately measure reliability/durability. I will say the beat up one near me does run, it seems to be a daily driver for someone (masochist).
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    The QP II is a better car than the earlier QP I
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    How do you know that?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Friends in the business, good resource material (Maserati Buyer's Guide, etc). We could have a Maserati topic if you'd like!
  • im_brentwoodim_brentwood Member Posts: 4,883
    Ahhh...

    But the old Quatroportes are soooo beautiful!

    Bill
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I wouldn't mind having the old one, although I find the styling questionable at best. I think I could manage the car with what I know and who I know.

    The QP you don't want (and probably won't find anyway) is the V-6 version, called the QP II, made from around 73-76 or so. This is basically a disguised Citroen Maserati SM, which as we know is the car from hell.

    Quattroportos are dirt cheap and even if someone is asking a lot of money, they aren't going to get it, so you can bargain with a cruel hand. I'd imagine they'd be worth more as scrap for the engine and all the parts that will fit a Sebring (the Vignale coupe).

    The later QPs certainly have all the elegance and power of a big Mercedes sedan, with Italian softness of interior and softness of all mechanicals--lol!

    Funny thing, the early QPs have cylinder heads cast for dual spark plugs, but they only used single plugs in production...and YES, they filled the holes up before selling the car!
  • im_brentwoodim_brentwood Member Posts: 4,883
    "And YES they filled the holes..."

    Ahh, who needs compression anyways :)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Another piece of incredibly useless trivia---right here at Town Hall!
  • magnetophonemagnetophone Member Posts: 605
    Shiftright, what would be the most sensibile buy for a used Maserati? I know of a used car lot that has several Biturbos that appear to be in good condition.

    Better yet, can you name me a model of Italian car that might be a sensible buy? My friend has a 1984 Alfa Spider Veloce which he insists is reliable. I see a few Alfa 164 (?)'s around every now and then.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Oh, Maserati.

    Well, here's the thing that the old German sedans don't have a problem with-- Maseratii are a real, serious pain to get parts for. It's a major problem that every owner has to deal with, and don't think for a minute that with the new Masers coming in that will imrpove the siuation. It won't. The parts for the old cars are GONE except for some engine parts and repro parts that you will get gouged for (since there is only like ONE distributor of parts in America--you know what THAT means).

    Alfa on the other hand have a parts distribution second to none. Well, maybe second to old VW bugs and MGBs, which both have awesome parts networks. But the Alfa network is very very strong, and you should be able to buy any part for any of the popular models, even the old ones.

    Alfas can be quite reliable. They aren't junky cars like Fiat. Oh, they might not be quite a Toyota Camry in reliability, but neither are most older Mercedes or BMWs
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    But a few Fiats can also be a little reliable. How about the last few years (1981-83)? Or the Lancias?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Perhaps here and there but they've never matched the popularity or reliability of Alfas, at least I've never been aware that they do. Lancia was also a quality car but did very poorly in the states. Poor parts and service will undermine any car.
  • magnetophonemagnetophone Member Posts: 605
    So which Alfas do you recommend?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well, let's do this in the Alfa topic. Be glad to give you my two cents!
  • magnetophonemagnetophone Member Posts: 605
    Where is the Alfa topic?
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    The topic is here in this forum, under the title "Alfa Romeo."
  • ghuletghulet Member Posts: 2,564
    I guess nobody went to the Alfa topic.

    Jrosasmc, what does 'can be a little reliable' mean, in reference to Fiats? I guess any car that runs once in a while can be considered a little reliable, right?

    My parents had one (a 1980 Brava) they bought new, it was nightmarish.
  • magnetophonemagnetophone Member Posts: 605
    My grandpa had a Fiat X 1/9 in a lovely burnt orange color.

    There's a picture I have of my mom, him, and my mom's friend fitting in it (2 seater vs. three people) in about 1977, right when my mom graduated high school (I know that's scary to some of you - i was born 3 years later).

    I've never actually heard my grandpa comment on his old Fiat, but it was long gone before I was old enough to walk.
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    Since this topic is about German cars, I should add that I saw an extremely worn-out '78 or '79 Audi 5000 being driven the other day. A nightmare of a car, if you ask me. Since when are there Audis from the '70s still on the road?
  • magnetophonemagnetophone Member Posts: 605
    I have seen a few, my neighbor drives an Audi 80. Well it might be a 4000... not sure, but in Germany, it's the 80. In America, they used thousand nomenclature and I suppose I'm used to the 60, 70, 80, 90, 100 marques.

    They're no more problematic than many Italian cars of the era and I still see a few Alfas and (gasp) one or two Fiats from that era.
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    A guy's trying to sell three (count them), three '83 Renault Le Cars on Ebay, for a grand total of $1,500. That's an average of $500 per car. Now who would want these odd little French things that have no redeeming qualities whatsoever?
  • merckxmerckx Member Posts: 565
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    The value the public places on a car speaks for itself I think.
  • magnetophonemagnetophone Member Posts: 605
    I dunno, I think they're cute, fun, quirky little cars. I know they're utter crap otherwise, but someone who lives near me drives a Yugo and adores the thing like it was a pet or a family member.
  • sddlwsddlw Member Posts: 361
    The other day I saw a W107 with a 550SL badge on it. Was this a grey-market car originaly sold in Europe?

    Any thoughts on the pros and cons of a 190SL convertable. Saw one advertized in the paper last week.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    550SL--- no such car.

    190SL-- there are pros and cons. It's a very SLOW car and not very exciting car to drive (based on the 180 sedan chassis and drivetrain) but it is handsome in that quirky 60s teutonic sort of way, and build quality is excellent. If you want something old in a Benz that feels something like a sports car, the 280SL is a much better car in every way than a 190, and a bit cheaper. Figure around 25K for a very sharp 280SL and $30K for a super nice 190SL.
  • merckxmerckx Member Posts: 565
    So the less desireable 190 is actually more expensive now? Why? Is it considered to have more interesting "classic" styling? I love them both,but always going with the quirky choice,I think I'd rather the 180SL. But I had no idea it actually is now more valueable...
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Because it looks like i's "big brother", the 300SL, and actually shares some parts. It's a bit more valuable than a 280SL, but I think this small gap will rapidly close, as it has been these past few years, and eventually the 280SL will be worth more.
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    What is your opinion on the '70s-style SL roadsters? (i.e., '72-'79 350SL, 450SL, etc.)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Opinion regarding what exactly? You mean value or driving characteristics or ???
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    I mean, overall build quality, driving performance on the road, and luxuriousness. I'm not emphasizing value.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I personally like the 560SL the best, as it is the most refined, best handling, most economical of that body style. The earlier cars like the late 70s, early 80s 450SLs are rather ponderous gas hogs, but nice cruisers.

    Also you have to be careful in choosing a used one, as an engine rebuild on a 450SL costs more than the entire car!

    Build quality is typical Mercedes, rock solid throughout.
  • sddlwsddlw Member Posts: 361
    So getting back to the W107 I walk by every once in a while... Would the 550SL badge be some sort of a custom job? My eyes are not what they used to be, but I was only 2 feet from the car.
This discussion has been closed.