maybe $3k for a perfect first-gen GTI, those are about the only VWs of that era that have any 'collector' interest.
I think a lot of people stay away from old BMWs and Mercedes because of repair bills (whether or not they'll actually be that bad is another question), which probably isn't the case for VWs as much. The VWs are less complex, seldom have any electrical gadgets to break.
A 528e for less than $3k is kinda tempting, but those engines, while they may be durable, aren't much fun. I drove a 325e stick once, I can't imagine that thing with an extra 400 pounds or so saddling it. Same goes for the other more lame 80s BMWs (318i namely). You do get the BMW badge, but you're gonna be blown off the road by most cars.
Saw what looked like a late 60's Mercedes 250 on the road yesterday. It looked to be restored, as the paint looked too nice, as well as the wheel covers. It was in that Mercedes yellow of that period.
My question, from the looks of the car, it doesn't seem like a real exciting car to drive, very boxy, and just looked slow.
What is one worth, especially if restoration on MB's are so expensive?
60s MB sedans are just used cars, they have no real collectible status or value. So you'd have to value them accordingly to what you'd pay for nice clean transportation in an old car. Since anything on 4 wheels in America that is clean and runs well has got to be worth at least $2,000, we could start there, and then add a bit for the parts value of these cars.
Ironically, you could probably part out a 60s Benz for more money than you could sell it for, since these old sedans are good donors for expensive parts needed to restore the covertibles and coupes of the same type.
It's hard to imagine someone paying big bucks for an old sedan that is slow and very expensive to fix. Supply and demand tends to keep the prices down.
Still, it is a solid and respectable old car, and with proper maintenance, could be a reliable daily driver. Not a bad choice for a second car, but don't go putting money into it.
Just had a chat with the eccentric man who drives the '80 Jetta coupe I discussed earlier. I examined the car from top to bottom, and discovered that the undercarriage and floorboards were just about shot. The guy (whom I will call E.) said that he was going to retire the old VW after this winter. I also found out some interesting facts about this Jetta; he factory-ordered it in August '79, and he took delivery of the car in December of that same year. It has everything that was available on a Jetta of that vintage: a/c, manual sunroof, gauge package, Blaupunkt cassette stereo. Obviously, E. put a lot of maintenance and time into this car to keep it going for 22 years (in harsh VT winters).
One very notable exception is the 300SEL 6.3, made from 1968-72. This had the long-wheelbase S-class body with the engine from the 600 limousine. A super nice example usually costs $15-20k, which is probably a lot less than the cost to restore one in bad condition.
Oooh, yeah, you would not want to restore a 300SEL 6.3. Not with $1,500 just for a water pump. This is a very maintenance-intensive car. I think the market is more like under $15K and still sinking. Again, the car suffers from buyer paranoia. I had one of these as a field car when I worked for Mercedes. It was quite a car, but then, it was brand new and I had the entire Mercedes technical department at my disposal.
Is the general sense I get that older Mercedes were better built than the new ones of the last decade true? I can understand buying a Mercedes and keeping it forever, as in the past they were built to high standards. Not sure that is true now.
The problem I see is now they are cheapening the brand by selling new cars for under $30,000. I don't think increasing production will help Mercedes keep their exclusivity in the future. While much has been said of the disasterous purchase of Chrysler by Daimler-Benz, you would think logic would be to let Chrysler take the under $40,000 maket, and keep Mercedes above that threshold. Instead, they are pushing Chrysler down-market along with Mercedes, as well as sharing compnents and transmissions from the E-series chassis with the new Chrysler full sizer due in 2003.
I think the older Benzes were very sturdily built, with high quality materials, but I don't think they were any more reliable than the modern ones. There have been so many advances in technology that about all you can say for older tech is that you can fix it yourself when it breaks.
You have to remember that Benz is a huge company that makes a whole lotta cars. This isn't some small player hand-building automobiles. So they have to pay the rent and they have to remain competitive.
I don't see any harm in putting invisible Benz parts into a highline Chrysler, but I certainly wouldn't do it the other way around. That would be very stupid.
Also I think Benz realizes that they don't want to end up like Cadillac, with a very high average age for their customers. All of Cadillac's customers died and the marque almost died with them.
I'm back in NJ for the holidays and got curious. As you may remember we have a 6.9 that we bought new from Prestige in Paramus, NJ.
It's not got about 75K on it and is perfect. In fact, as the roads arent salty, I was out driving it today.. ahh
So I started lookin through the file we have on it. Since 1990 and 61K miles, I think it appears to have sucked up over $7,500 in work. And it will soon need new tires again. Since it uses 215-70VR14s, XWXs from Coker are the only proper option (What its wearing now)
Yup.. there's a recipt in here to fix the air suspension.. its over $4,000.. another for some sort of electrical work to the tune of $1,700.. Another for a water pump and some other stuff that's over $1,000..
Restore one of these? AIEEEE!!!
And this is a low-mile one that's in show condition that get used maybe once every 2 weeks! It lives in a climate-controlled garage too.
I'd hate to think what keeping up one of these babies that's been abused and beaten on would cost..
They are great road cars and the 6.9 is much improved over the 6.3. Unfortunately, mostly the way you find them these days IS beat up and abused. You're lucky to have such a cream puff to enjoy. It's the only way to own one of these cars. I don't think the 6.9 has the same suspension set up as the 6.3, but it is equally complex. A French mechanic would love it.
Aren't German car parts (i.e. Audi, BMW, etc.) supposed to be as expensive or on a par with Swedish car parts? A friend of mine just replaced the whole clutch on his '96 Saab 900 S; it cost him $1000 even, and it has 130k on it? That's about right, isn't it, Mr. Shifty? I do know for a fact that 900 clutches are much more costly than, say, a Chevy Cavalier clutch.
He probably got soaked on the labor end not the parts end. Amazingly, most jobs on a Mercedes are not too difficult. The car is built to work on, unlike some other makes where everything is a freakin' hassle. I'd say that any "luxury European car" is going to have pricey parts, but a common component like a clutch or brakes or iginition parts, what we call "expendables", should not cost more than most other cars. It's the precious and unusual parts that are usually very high in cost....you know, headliners, armrests, internal engine parts, entire rebuilt transmissions....things that aren't produced in large numbers as replacement parts.
But clutches on the older ones were very easy, if you had the right tools. You could actually extract the transmission main shaft and slip the clutch out the top, all with the transmission still bolted up. Pretty neat! I think Saabs were designed by people who had never actually seen a real car before, but perhaps just a faded photograph of one washed up on the beach. The early Saab were so unlike anything else in the 50s. They were like Cars from Mars.
shifty (and any others), I have read this post up and down (amongst many others) and have a question about the pre-turbo deisels. What do you think of a 2 owner CA car with 133 documented miles for 3k?
I have a friend who has over 225k on his '79 300cd and I grew up with early 70's diesels. Growing up in the mid-west we had to deal with heating the engine block on a timer in the winter as well as flintstone floors from the all the rust.
I know the car is a dog as far as performance, but there is something about the diesels and in particular the coupe that I like.
I have been looking for something unique and much more of a possible track car in the 3-5k range ie. Alpha gtv6, 240z, 1st gen Rx-7, datsun 510 but might scrap all of it for a big hulking older benz diesel or low mileage late 80's 420sel.
Old Benz 300 diesels are great. They are slugs, but if you drive them right they can get by. They have a kind of solidness and rhythm to them that really gets to you after a while...like a faithful old horse or something. $3K is a fair price for a good one. And if you hit another car, you'll win.
I am looking at a 91 300E with 4matic. The car has 190K miles. Any comments on 4matics for this generation in terms of durability. I believe this is a first generation MB 4WD system.
I think at this level of high mileage you are in completely unknown territory, as I am, since this is approaching the planned useful life for the car, as the engineers intended.
At 200K, things could purr along for another 100K, or they could self-destruct in two weeks. You really can't tell without completely disassembling and inspecting every internal component.
Best thing you can do is have this car inspected with a fine tooth comb. And also bargain very hard. With this high mileage, this car should be seriously discounted. I'd say your target price, for a very very nice car that checks outperfectly, should be $7,500. Any more, take a walk on it and shop for lower miles.
In "Kerbcrawler", which is a little segment in Car magazine on used car values. It sort of highlights a used car model and explains the intricacies and quirks of that range.
They did one on the E-class Mercedes and made a mention that the 4Matic system in early examples was unreliable and caused VERY expensive bills. For the British to compain about an expensive Mercedes bill means it must be true. I have heard people recommend against the 4-matic system in early examples.
If you really need all wheel drive at a car that age, get a Subaru - but if you really want mercedes and 4WD in the same sentence, you can probably afford a newer example.
I don't think 4matic was discontinued so much for trouble as for the fact that the additional expense of this option, over $6,500, was more than MB owners wanted to pay. The car simply did not sell very well.
The Mercedes system is much more sophisticated than the Saburus of that time, which are crude in comparison; however, if utility matters more than comfort, it's an alternative. I can't say an old Subaru with equally high miles would be a paragon of reliability either. And they are slow, noisy and rather tedious to drive. A no-fun car but it'll get you through the drifts. For wet weather, old Subarus are no great shakes unless you do some serious tire-upgrades.
My grandparents live in the mountains and have only driven Subarus. In fact, in Washington state I see so many old Subarus... they have had 3 Legacy's and not a single bit of problems with them.
But, anyway, I have heard that 4Matic was plagued with problems early on.
I think I said that specifically that a Saburu of equivalent mileage (190K) would not necessarily be any more reliable.
Also in that era (early 90s) Legacy had known problems with brakes, clutch and lots of pieces falling off, so again, comparing an equivalent year Subaru and Benz, I don't think the Subaru would be markedly more reliable or a good choice.
If you meant a 1996 Legacy with 80K miles, sure, then I'd say it would probably be reliable, but remember, that Benz DID go 190K, so how bad could it be? And I bet there's not a 1991 Subaru with 190K that looks as good as the car he's looking at.
I would affirmatively avoid the early 4-matics -- search www.mercedesshop.com under "4-matic" for many good posts [see, e.g., thread 28928 from 01/02/02].
Consensus of wide group of very knowledgeable owners and techs seems to be (1) very complex and expensive to fix (probably have to go back to dealer), (2) limited transfer case life (and very expensive to fix) and (3) not needed (as compared to regular M-B with proper snowtires) unless very much driving on unsurfaced roads in winter or living in somewhere severe like Canada. Better to get a regular 300E (one of the best used car bargains) and a $2,000 rusty Jeep beater for snow days than pay more for a 4-matic.
Well, the systems were certainly complex and I'd hate to have to be the one to fix it. There's really nothing worse than old, complex technology.
I haven't found any data yet on how reliable/unreliable they were, or what their weaknesses might be, but I will ask around as well and let you know--I'll keep in mind your comments about the transfer case and see what's up with that specifically.
A friend of my mom's (the one that sold her the 88 300E she still has) bought a new 300E 4-matic in 92. The AWD system completely failed at ~65k miles, resulting in a $5k repair bill. This woman replaced the car with an E420 and hasn't looked back. I'd say buy a 300E and maybe an old 4wd Blazer if you need a winter car (300Es, particularly w/out TCS, are not the best in the snow).
I was told the 2.6 was a shorter-stroke 3.0, which we all know is durable as can be. I was told the 2.3 was the one to watch out for, and the 2.6 would be just like getting a 300E junior
It's not the engine that's the problem, it's the whole car. Lots of teething problems and defects. Perhaps by now many of these older cars have been squared away.
No wonder my mom never wanted to buy a used 190E. She heard that there were tons of problems with the model, even when they were new in the 80s.
By the way, how good is a BMW 524td when it comes to driving performance? Most Bimmer enthusiasts I know seem unwilling to talk about this type of car.
Funny you say that, I was always told that the 190 and 300E are both very good used buys - especially in later years. I checked my car out with 2 mechanics (M-B mechanics) and both said that the 190E is usually a solid bet as long as you have maintenance records.
Mine had all of them, not to mention a new water pump, new belts, etc. so I figured $5500 was a good deal for 75K miles.
Have you ever heard about the '68 Mercedes 220D that has 1.2 million miles on it and is now owned by Daimler-Benz AG? According to a credible story I read, that particular car was used by its owner for a 200-mile round-trip commute to work in the Northwest, I believe. Don't know how he could manage that, since 220Ds are probably much much slower than a Volvo P1800 of the same vintage (and Mr. Irv Gordon's '66 will hit 2 million miles this spring!).
Actually I do vaguely recall something about MB owning a very high mileage car, but I think it had a couple of engines in it. I just can't imagine one engine going that many miles.
Thanks for all of the valuable insights. The engine and tranny seemed fine for a car with 190K although I have not had it checked by a shop. I have read about a disconnect switch for the 4matic. If the 4matic should clunk out, will disconnecting the 4matic create long term problems or am I then just driving a 2WD 300E.
It was the earliest [mid-'80s] 190Es that were problematic -- by '92 or so they were fully sorted out and represent one of the best used car values.
I just bought my 17-year old daughter a '93 190E 2.6 Limited Edition with 64,000 miles to replace her '88 420SEL, which I had originally gotten to make her crashproof, but now she's complaining that it's too big and unwieldy -- the big Benzer is rather like driving an aircraft carrier and takes care in backing out of parking spaces, esp. if there's something like an SUV next to you that blocks your vision until you have about 10 feet of the monster already backed out. As she's driven the S-class for a year without incident, I'm ready to trust her with the 190.
M-B only made 700 of the Limited Edition cars at the 1993 end of the 190 model run and they had the special Sportline handling package (similar to that of the AMG cars now offered by M-B, including quicker ratio steering, smaller steering wheel, lowered suspension, stiffer springs and shocks, wider wheels with Z-rated tires, etc.), 4-place sport seating [like the earlier 190E 2.3-16V with the Cosworth 4-valve-per-cylinder head] with unique black leather with red panels and piping, carbon fiber console and dash, special black paint with factory debadging (other then the M-B star front and rear), all 190E options standard, etc.
There is also a 2.3 Limited Edition (also only 700 cars) with special emerald paint and creme leather with burlwood walnut console and dash, but the 2.3 does not have the Sportline package -- pitch is luxury rather than performance.
Why'd you get your 17-year-old daughter a '93 190E? You know what my school friend got from his parents when he turned 19 last month? A '92 Chevy Caprice wagon with a 350! That's right, a Caprice wagon. He hates the thing so much he wants to dump it immediately.
I think your statement answers your question -- your school friend got a POS and wants to dump it. My daughter took pride in her old S-class, drove it carefully and took care of it, so now she gets a better car which she will like better, take pride in and also take care of.
As I said above, I chose the 190E because it was the best value for the $$, safe, old-Benzer build quality, great handling and (in the Limited Edition) distinctive and fun to drive. I wouldn't put her in anything I wouldn't drive myself -- we use her S-class for family trips (great highway car and tremendous room).
I sell a lot of older Benzes. Being in FL, I rarely see 4Ms, but when I do, and when they come with service records, I usually see some scary receipts for the 4m system.
I personally feel that it is an overcomplexity that is best avoided.
I also think that closer to $6,000-6,500 is a better price myself. I know that I wouldnt "bid" that car over $3,500-4,000 if it was offered to me (If it was I'd most likely pass on ti regardless).
Considering that I have bought several nice, 90-120K mile 91-92 300Es lately, and all have been quite a bit under $7,500 wholesale.. I think that you ought to go with a 2WD 300E. The drivetrains themselves are very durable. If you must have a 4m, bear this in mind also.. I have bought, on a wholesale level, a 1991 300E 4M with 117K and full MB records (Smoke Silver/Cream Beige too.. VERY strong color combo) for $7,800 wholesale. So figure that car will retail around $10K.. (it did $9,750 on eBay in November) And you can see why you may be better off avoiding that 190K miler.
Oh, quick thing to check for on an older MB.. what I do when I'm looking at one..
Start 'er up. Tranny in Park. Put it in "R". If it hesitates for much over 1 full second before it engages, then it has worn clutch packs.
Now, say that 190K car is gonna need a tranny ($1,500 R and Rd for a USED one with 100K on it).. and say you get it for.. ohh.. $7,000. Now you have $8,500 in the car.. and people are buying nice ones with half the miles for little more than that...
Typical scenario: I bought an absolutely pristine Mercedes 300D for $1,200 at auction. Had all service records from Day One through 205,000 miles. Ran great, drove great.
Got it home and did a fine tooth inspection and found all sorts of little things to do. Non functioning cruise control, weak front shocks, two marginal tires, a few dashboard lights out, smelled a little of diesel fuel, slow driver's electric window, a/c blowing hot.
Well, none of these things kept the car off the road, and I'm sure the owner would have insisted the car was "cherry" and that he "never had trouble with it".
And yet I spent many hours of labor and used parts hunting and a quick $1,000 just to square these things away. If I had to pay someone else to do the labor, it would have been $2,000 for new parts + labor.
Or, I could have done like the previous owner and just putted away blissfully with the car as it was.
I can hear him now: "Who needs a/c in San Francisco?" "I never use cruise control". The shocks seem fine to me. Oh, that window was always slow. Those tires still have some tread.
Yeah, but, I want to hop in a car and take it anywhere I please, anytime I please.
I know it sounds VERY arrogant, but whenever someone insists that his/her particular car has never given any trouble, has defied all the consumer reports black dots, etc., I sometimes offer to give the car a good inspection and see what I find. Invariably (well, not invariably, but very very often) I will find, sense, smell, feel, or touch problems that the owner isn't aware of or has simply chosen to ignore.
Example: My buddy's Jaguar. He will swear on ten bibles that :
"It has never let me down" "I've had good luck with this car" etc, etc.
Yet, I know that his driveshaft support bushings are loose, he is dripping a tiny bit of power steering fluid, the car runs too hot for my tastes, it grinds and grinds before it starts (but always starts), I smell gas, I smell mold from some kind of water leak (found drip on back windshield, and then found reason for leak---RUST). Back power window doesn't work, rear tires wearing awfully funny, there's a small pinhole somewhere in the exhaust manifold, the battery terminals are corroded, the belts and hoses are ancient and looked cracked and worn, the wipers streak, one defrost vent is inoperative, the a/c doesn't work, one door handle is missing, a tail light lens is cracked.....and.....you get the picture.
Does this mean I am more perceptive? Not really, just less tolerant.
My Mother-in-Law would swear that her '71 280SL was in top shape and the guys at the garage told her that all the time. Charged her a bundle and did very little it seems after the fact. When we got the car my wife said the brakes weren't very good, I honestly just figured it was a 30 year old car and used more leg. We took it to a place closer to us, that has a specialist for cars over 25 years in age, the list we have been working on for the past year is about half way down and won't even think about the total cost. Wife not likely to part with Mom's car. However, to give the guy credit he sent my wife to the web for parts at about half of what his own parts counter at the MB dealer charges. BTW, 3 of the 4 brake lines were basicly plugged and he showed us 3 places on the fuel lines where rubber connectors were cracked and seeping fuel, and then showed where they forced a wrong year part on the side of the distributor and caused another connector to break. So now all the safety and mechanical things are taken care of, it runs great (always did) and the wood trim on the dash and console is new so in the spring it gets a new soft convertible top, left the hard top in the living room all last summer, will be nice to have a top on hotter day trips. But going around in it is really an event with lots of locals into older rides. Having now seen several other similar vintage cars it isn't a show car but is not too far short of it either. See everybody loves what they drive, or at least I get to drive it some of the time.
It seems that VERY few people are willing to do proper maintinence on their cars.
And I think that I must spend close totriple onmaintinence compared to most people.
Example: My 1995 Vanden Plas just sucked up a bunch of work.
New: Belts, Hoses, plugs, flush all fluids including brake, Power Steering, etc. All new filters. Flush radiator and cooling system.
Check over all of the brake hoses/lines carefully. Lubricate caliper slide bolts.
No leaks so far (Not bad in 6.5 years!) and everything still works. But you're very right. I cant think of how many cars I see wherepeople think changing the plugs, oil, filter and trnny fluid is the mother of all services.
Comments
I think a lot of people stay away from old BMWs and Mercedes because of repair bills (whether or not they'll actually be that bad is another question), which probably isn't the case for VWs as much. The VWs are less complex, seldom have any electrical gadgets to break.
A 528e for less than $3k is kinda tempting, but those engines, while they may be durable, aren't much fun. I drove a 325e stick once, I can't imagine that thing with an extra 400 pounds or so saddling it. Same goes for the other more lame 80s BMWs (318i namely). You do get the BMW badge, but you're gonna be blown off the road by most cars.
My question, from the looks of the car, it doesn't seem like a real exciting car to drive, very boxy, and just looked slow.
What is one worth, especially if restoration on MB's are so expensive?
Ironically, you could probably part out a 60s Benz for more money than you could sell it for, since these old sedans are good donors for expensive parts needed to restore the covertibles and coupes of the same type.
It's hard to imagine someone paying big bucks for an old sedan that is slow and very expensive to fix. Supply and demand tends to keep the prices down.
Still, it is a solid and respectable old car, and with proper maintenance, could be a reliable daily driver. Not a bad choice for a second car, but don't go putting money into it.
The problem I see is now they are cheapening the brand by selling new cars for under $30,000. I don't think increasing production will help Mercedes keep their exclusivity in the future. While much has been said of the disasterous purchase of Chrysler by Daimler-Benz, you would think logic would be to let Chrysler take the under $40,000 maket, and keep Mercedes above that threshold. Instead, they are pushing Chrysler down-market along with Mercedes, as well as sharing compnents and transmissions from the E-series chassis with the new Chrysler full sizer due in 2003.
Seems like short term thinking to me.
You have to remember that Benz is a huge company that makes a whole lotta cars. This isn't some small player hand-building automobiles. So they have to pay the rent and they have to remain competitive.
I don't see any harm in putting invisible Benz parts into a highline Chrysler, but I certainly wouldn't do it the other way around. That would be very stupid.
Also I think Benz realizes that they don't want to end up like Cadillac, with a very high average age for their customers. All of Cadillac's customers died and the marque almost died with them.
I'm back in NJ for the holidays and got curious. As you may remember we have a 6.9 that we bought new from Prestige in Paramus, NJ.
It's not got about 75K on it and is perfect. In fact, as the roads arent salty, I was out driving it today.. ahh
So I started lookin through the file we have on it. Since 1990 and 61K miles, I think it appears to have sucked up over $7,500 in work. And it will soon need new tires again. Since it uses 215-70VR14s, XWXs from Coker are the only proper option (What its wearing now)
Yup.. there's a recipt in here to fix the air suspension.. its over $4,000.. another for some sort of electrical work to the tune of $1,700.. Another for a water pump and some other stuff that's over $1,000..
Restore one of these? AIEEEE!!!
And this is a low-mile one that's in show condition that get used maybe once every 2 weeks! It lives in a climate-controlled garage too.
I'd hate to think what keeping up one of these babies that's been abused and beaten on would cost..
Bill
Mom will never sell it. FUnny how we still have it..
She bought it new in 1980 IIRC and loved it.
In 1984 she went to trade it in on a new XJ6 and got an insulting offer. So she said "Heck with you guys, IU wont trade it I'lkl keep it!"
19 years later.. hahaha.
It is an amazing car tho, but I agree. I have not yet seen another that's as nice.
Bill
SAABs? They always seem to be a bear with Labor costs.. I know the older ones required the engine to come out for any kind of tranny work.
Bill
I have read this post up and down (amongst many others) and have a question about the pre-turbo deisels. What do you think of a 2 owner CA car with 133 documented miles for 3k?
I have a friend who has over 225k on his '79 300cd and I grew up with early 70's diesels. Growing up in the mid-west we had to deal with heating the engine block on a timer in the winter as well as flintstone floors from the all the rust.
I know the car is a dog as far as performance, but there is something about the diesels and in particular the coupe that I like.
I have been looking for something unique and much more of a possible track car in the 3-5k range ie. Alpha gtv6, 240z, 1st gen Rx-7, datsun 510 but might scrap all of it for a big hulking older benz diesel or low mileage late 80's 420sel.
thanks!
At 200K, things could purr along for another 100K, or they could self-destruct in two weeks. You really can't tell without completely disassembling and inspecting every internal component.
Best thing you can do is have this car inspected with a fine tooth comb. And also bargain very hard. With this high mileage, this car should be seriously discounted. I'd say your target price, for a very very nice car that checks outperfectly, should be $7,500. Any more, take a walk on it and shop for lower miles.
They did one on the E-class Mercedes and made a mention that the 4Matic system in early examples was unreliable and caused VERY expensive bills. For the British to compain about an expensive Mercedes bill means it must be true. I have heard people recommend against the 4-matic system in early examples.
If you really need all wheel drive at a car that age, get a Subaru - but if you really want mercedes and 4WD in the same sentence, you can probably afford a newer example.
The Mercedes system is much more sophisticated than the Saburus of that time, which are crude in comparison; however, if utility matters more than comfort, it's an alternative. I can't say an old Subaru with equally high miles would be a paragon of reliability either. And they are slow, noisy and rather tedious to drive. A no-fun car but it'll get you through the drifts. For wet weather, old Subarus are no great shakes unless you do some serious tire-upgrades.
My grandparents live in the mountains and have only driven Subarus. In fact, in Washington state I see so many old Subarus... they have had 3 Legacy's and not a single bit of problems with them.
But, anyway, I have heard that 4Matic was plagued with problems early on.
Also in that era (early 90s) Legacy had known problems with brakes, clutch and lots of pieces falling off, so again, comparing an equivalent year Subaru and Benz, I don't think the Subaru would be markedly more reliable or a good choice.
If you meant a 1996 Legacy with 80K miles, sure, then I'd say it would probably be reliable, but remember, that Benz DID go 190K, so how bad could it be? And I bet there's not a 1991 Subaru with 190K that looks as good as the car he's looking at.
Consensus of wide group of very knowledgeable owners and techs seems to be (1) very complex and expensive to fix (probably have to go back to dealer), (2) limited transfer case life (and very expensive to fix) and (3) not needed (as compared to regular M-B with proper snowtires) unless very much driving on unsurfaced roads in winter or living in somewhere severe like Canada. Better to get a regular 300E (one of the best used car bargains) and a $2,000 rusty Jeep beater for snow days than pay more for a 4-matic.
I haven't found any data yet on how reliable/unreliable they were, or what their weaknesses might be, but I will ask around as well and let you know--I'll keep in mind your comments about the transfer case and see what's up with that specifically.
I'd say buy a 300E and maybe an old 4wd Blazer if you need a winter car (300Es, particularly w/out TCS, are not the best in the snow).
I have now had 7,000 miles on my 92 190E 2.6, so far with nothing broken or to complain about - it runs probably as good as new.
By the way, how good is a BMW 524td when it comes to driving performance? Most Bimmer enthusiasts I know seem unwilling to talk about this type of car.
Mine had all of them, not to mention a new water pump, new belts, etc. so I figured $5500 was a good deal for 75K miles.
I just bought my 17-year old daughter a '93 190E 2.6 Limited Edition with 64,000 miles to replace her '88 420SEL, which I had originally gotten to make her crashproof, but now she's complaining that it's too big and unwieldy -- the big Benzer is rather like driving an aircraft carrier and takes care in backing out of parking spaces, esp. if there's something like an SUV next to you that blocks your vision until you have about 10 feet of the monster already backed out. As she's driven the S-class for a year without incident, I'm ready to trust her with the 190.
M-B only made 700 of the Limited Edition cars at the 1993 end of the 190 model run and they had the special Sportline handling package (similar to that of the AMG cars now offered by M-B, including quicker ratio steering, smaller steering wheel, lowered suspension, stiffer springs and shocks, wider wheels with Z-rated tires, etc.), 4-place sport seating [like the earlier 190E 2.3-16V with the Cosworth 4-valve-per-cylinder head] with unique black leather with red panels and piping, carbon fiber console and dash, special black paint with factory debadging (other then the M-B star front and rear), all 190E options standard, etc.
There is also a 2.3 Limited Edition (also only 700 cars) with special emerald paint and creme leather with burlwood walnut console and dash, but the 2.3 does not have the Sportline package -- pitch is luxury rather than performance.
As I said above, I chose the 190E because it was the best value for the $$, safe, old-Benzer build quality, great handling and (in the Limited Edition) distinctive and fun to drive. I wouldn't put her in anything I wouldn't drive myself -- we use her S-class for family trips (great highway car and tremendous room).
Hope I'm not too late!
I sell a lot of older Benzes. Being in FL, I rarely see 4Ms, but when I do, and when they come with service records, I usually see some scary receipts for the 4m system.
I personally feel that it is an overcomplexity that is best avoided.
I also think that closer to $6,000-6,500 is a better price myself. I know that I wouldnt "bid" that car over $3,500-4,000 if it was offered to me (If it was I'd most likely pass on ti regardless).
Considering that I have bought several nice, 90-120K mile 91-92 300Es lately, and all have been quite a bit under $7,500 wholesale.. I think that you ought to go with a 2WD 300E. The drivetrains themselves are very durable. If you must have a 4m, bear this in mind also.. I have bought, on a wholesale level, a 1991 300E 4M with 117K and full MB records (Smoke Silver/Cream Beige too.. VERY strong color combo) for $7,800 wholesale. So figure that car will retail around $10K.. (it did $9,750 on eBay in November) And you can see why you may be better off avoiding that 190K miler.
Oh, quick thing to check for on an older MB.. what I do when I'm looking at one..
Start 'er up. Tranny in Park. Put it in "R". If it hesitates for much over 1 full second before it engages, then it has worn clutch packs.
Now, say that 190K car is gonna need a tranny ($1,500 R and Rd for a USED one with 100K on it).. and say you get it for.. ohh.. $7,000. Now you have $8,500 in the car.. and people are buying nice ones with half the miles for little more than that...
Some stuff to think about!
Bill
Lots of people do not plan for that!
Bill
Got it home and did a fine tooth inspection and found all sorts of little things to do. Non functioning cruise control, weak front shocks, two marginal tires, a few dashboard lights out, smelled a little of diesel fuel, slow driver's electric window, a/c blowing hot.
Well, none of these things kept the car off the road, and I'm sure the owner would have insisted the car was "cherry" and that he "never had trouble with it".
And yet I spent many hours of labor and used parts hunting and a quick $1,000 just to square these things away. If I had to pay someone else to do the labor, it would have been $2,000 for new parts + labor.
Or, I could have done like the previous owner and just putted away blissfully with the car as it was.
I can hear him now: "Who needs a/c in San Francisco?" "I never use cruise control". The shocks seem fine to me. Oh, that window was always slow. Those tires still have some tread.
Yeah, but, I want to hop in a car and take it anywhere I please, anytime I please.
"Show me a car that I cant find at least half a dozen things wrong with, and I'll show you a car with very few miles"
Bill
Example: My buddy's Jaguar. He will swear on ten bibles that :
"It has never let me down"
"I've had good luck with this car"
etc, etc.
Yet, I know that his driveshaft support bushings are loose, he is dripping a tiny bit of power steering fluid, the car runs too hot for my tastes, it grinds and grinds before it starts (but always starts), I smell gas, I smell mold from some kind of water leak (found drip on back windshield, and then found reason for leak---RUST). Back power window doesn't work, rear tires wearing awfully funny, there's a small pinhole somewhere in the exhaust manifold, the battery terminals are corroded, the belts and hoses are ancient and looked cracked and worn, the wipers streak, one defrost vent is inoperative, the a/c doesn't work, one door handle is missing, a tail light lens is cracked.....and.....you get the picture.
Does this mean I am more perceptive? Not really, just less tolerant.
And I think that I must spend close totriple onmaintinence compared to most people.
Example: My 1995 Vanden Plas just sucked up a bunch of work.
New: Belts, Hoses, plugs, flush all fluids including brake, Power Steering, etc. All new filters. Flush radiator and cooling system.
Check over all of the brake hoses/lines carefully. Lubricate caliper slide bolts.
No leaks so far (Not bad in 6.5 years!) and everything still works. But you're very right. I cant think of how many cars I see wherepeople think changing the plugs, oil, filter and trnny fluid is the mother of all services.
Bill