1. My Uncle does seem to lead a charmed life. 2. Now, I would classify it as a rolling wreck (especially since it was totalled and rebuilt), but I would say that the car had at least 10 good years of releability. I am not aware of any electrical problems currently or ever, but that's not to say that they have not happened because it's not my car and I don't keep that close tabs on the car.
After selling off my last daily driver (my '69 Z/28) I've been down to our junk car for several years (I've been patiently waiting for the 2nd Great Depression to bring down muscle car prices). It's a salvage title 4000 Quattro (perfect for an area with *really* slippery snow, the concept of expensive four wheel drives for bad weather use has always sort of escaped me), which has been really pretty reliable (about once a year, I end up spending 200 or so dollars). Now with 170k miles or so (broken odometer, naturally) I'm waiting for it to die, but to its credit, it has lasted 8 years now with very little maintenance or care. I do wish the rear doors worked, however.
Actually the 4000 series was not a bad car, and is often excluded from the "bad list". I know quite a few people who had reasonably good luck with the 4000 series. Basically just a VW Quantum as I recall or very similar.
But it's really not a "luxury" car either, so wasn't included on the Warning List for this discussion.
Not a luxury car! Holy moley, it's got power windows and power steering. Got that famous Teutonic engineering (ie. using two parts where one will do). Got that zingin', wingin', happenin' five cylinder super race engine. Power locks!!! Just perfect for hitting mail boxes after a snow storm.
Maybe a luxury car by American standards, but pretty much taxi-cab level by German standards I think. A nice solid middle-class car perhaps, but really, I could tear an Audi 4000 apart with my bare hands and feet. It's a VW with a shoe shine.
Okay, the point being at any rate that the 4000 is a base level car compared to the 5000.
I had a Quantum and it was a great car for me even if things fell off it every few days. I remember regretting I sold it because it was so reliable. I never felt I was in luxury, though.
Yes yes yes yes the 4000 is less luxurious then the 5000. Jeesh, it's about as fruitful a nit to pick as defining which car is 'collectible'. Hell, to me, anything with an FM radio and power steering is a luxury car.
Actually wasn't intending to nitpick but rather keeping us all on topic...this discussion is about German Luxury Cars and as host I felt the 4000 needed to be discussed elsewhere, perhaps an "Older German Sedans" discussion--if you'd like to start one?
Audi always has been an "upmarket" European brand, as opposed to Volkswagen, etc. I put it in the same league as Volvo or Saab, but definately not as high as luxury/sport-luxury brands such as MB, BMW, and Jaguar.
In a nod to another thread...I would rather spend money repairing my old Mercedes ('85 380SE) than making payments on some bland, appliance, Asian anony-mobile.
Why?
I like the sound of an OHC Benz V-8 winding past 5 grand in second. I like the panache of the Old World interior, wood, leather, but still decidedly minimalist. I will never own a car without character <---no Camry or Explorer lemming here!
Why buy new when you can pick up a great used Benz or BMW? Why not get some character?
If you see a problem with this, read some of the posts at www.mercedesshop.com or www.bmwplanet.com, you may start to understand.
I have enjoyed my car for 220,000 miles with the original untouched engine and 5 speed of course. I have to replace the radiator every 100,000 miles with the timing belt. Last month I needed a new alternator for the first time. I guess that's not too bad, I wish each dealer visit was a lot less than $600 though. It has been a great car and I have someone who wants to buy it when I am done.
>>>> Actually wasn't intending to nitpick but rather keeping us all on topic...this discussion is about German Luxury Cars and as host I felt the 4000 needed to be discussed elsewhere, perhaps an "Older German Sedans" discussion--if you'd like to start one? >>>>
Oh man, no thanks. I can see it now, 100 LS vs Bavaria, or Mercedes 220 POS or Not? Honestly I can think of only four German cars I've ever coveted.
1) 1972-1973 911S 2) 3.0 CSL 3) Sport Quattro (worlds fastest AMC Gremlin) 4) That Capri race car (built by Zakspeed?) with the Cosworth V8.
Audi is a luxury marque so therefore we should be able to discuss the 4000 series. So theoretically is the A6 not allowed to be discussed because it's shared platforms with the Passat?
Singling out one car is silly. I wouldn't consider the 325i a luxury car either, but i highly doubt anyone would single that out.
Back in the 1980s Audi had quite a different lineup than they do now. Audi 4000 then is like a Pontiac or Oldsmobile is to us...not a Cadillac or Lincoln. Even today's bottom line cars have luxury items that were unheard of in the 1980s. Early 80s 325 wouldn't be in here, either, or Benz 220s or Volvo 240s, that's correct. The Audi 4000 is like a Passat is today IMO.
I'd really like to focus the discussion on obvious luxury cars, not borderline.
The 5000 Quattro Wagon is a bit of a minor collectible these days. You can get way more money for them than for an ordinary 2WD sedan. Great ski car!
Audi 5000 engines were great and they were a quality product...the cars were just plagued with other issues, like the early automatics, some overheating, electrical gltiches, and, of course, the dreadful hatchet job done by 60 minutes.
As for high mileages reached, that's as much a tribute to the particular Audi owner as it is to the car.
...Back in the 1980s Audi had quite a different lineup than they do now. Audi 4000 then is like a Pontiac or Oldsmobile is to us...not a Cadillac or Lincoln. Even today's bottom line cars have luxury items that were unheard of in the 1980s. Early 80s 325 wouldn't be in here, either, or Benz 220s or Volvo 240s, that's correct. The Audi 4000 is like a Passat is today IMO....
Um, actually, no.
Audi 4000=Audi A4 Audi 5000=Audi A6 Volkswagen Quantum=VW Passat (based on 4000 mechanicals, geez, just like today's Passat!)
Audi didn't have an A8 equivalent until 1990, when the V-8 Quattro came out. Little known-fact: there are 5-speed V8 Quattros out there....I want one!!!
VW has pretty much always had an analogous product line since the early 1980s. The Jetta and its cousins may have moved upmarket, but dang, no one else has either (note the sarcasm).
An Audi 4000 Quattro could be quite similarly equipped to compete with its competitors, the BMW 325e/i/is/iX and Mercedes 190E 2.3. 3-series Bimmers of that day didn't have power seats or automatic climate control, and I believe the Benz had power seats and "real" leather (as opposed to leatherette) as options.
I don't agree. The A4 of today is much more upscale than the Audi 4000 of yesteryear. I had a VW Quantum and the Audi 4000 felt like much the same car to me in trim, ride, etc.....I think it actually shared the 105 cid engine between both cars, but I can't recall what else might have been shared. The original Audi 4000 was a replacement for the Fox, Audi's bargain basement car. I think the Audi 4000 was what they call in Europe "a baker's car"--one that such a person could afford.
You point about the shared 105ci. engine in the 4000/Quantum could also be applied to the current 1.8T in the A4/Passat.Is the A4 not an entry-level "near"luxury car? I recall an old ROAD and TRACK test comparing the Audi Fox with a Volvo 244,BMW 320i,Lancia Beta sedan,Saab 99 etc.All of them now are looked at as fairly "premium" cars,no? Why not allow the Fox/4000 to slip by? I thought the Fox a great,roarty car-if I could have bought anything back then I would have loved a Fox. Both the 4000 and Fox commanded a fairly high price.
I realize I'm helping to wear out this subject, but I think we have to remember that 'luxury car' is a relative term. Are we judging by price or features? No, the Audi 4000 is not a 'luxurious' car by today's standards, but compared to other small sedans of it's day, it definitely was. And they were pretty expensive, just as today.
I still see lots of used Audis but I don't think I'd ever buy one because they're so expensive to repair; I have two friends who had old Audis, one had to sell a 5000 turbo cuz the transmission alone was going to be $3500 to replace. I had another friend who had an 80, he paid like $3k for the car and literally about $4k in repairs the first year he had it. He sold it with a bad radiator for $650. Yikes.
A former MBZ owner (87 300E, which I miss), I want to get back into an older Benz. Since I've already owned a 300E, I was thinking of a 85-91 420SEL or 560SEL. I know the obvious differences, horsepower, torque, 420 doesn't have heated seats, rear levelling, rear (!) power seats, etc. I don't really care about that. And I think the power difference wouldn't bother me either, if I landed on a 420, though I do NOT know the mileage difference. The 560 I drove today supposedly gets 15mpg.
Anyway, the question is: what am I missing? The 89 560SEL I drove today has 154K on it; it's being sold by a very reputable used MBZ dealer. There were some problems all of which the sales manager agreed with and said would fix. And, if nothing else, the AC blew cold. They're asking $12,900, which seems too high. Whaddayou think? (They just got the car in last week, it's an Arizona car, no rust, good leather, just needs cleaning.)
Also, any differences between 420 and 560 that are important to consider? Is either cheaper to work on mechanically than the other?
Also, in the 560SEL, what on earth is the button on the lower console, in the middle (Town and Country, the salesman said). I was too embarrassed to ask what that meant. And, how much of a PITA (pain in the....) is that self-levelling business?
Well, sure everyone has different standards. I think the fairest test, really the only test, is to sit in one and/or drive it. I did this just this summer, an old Quattro a friend owned, and it really felt (please forgive me 4000 owners) pretty cheaply made and rather stingy in appointments, build quality and soundproofing. I felt I could beat the car up with my bare hands. I don't, on the other hand, get this feeling from my old 300D Mercedes of the same vintage, which still feels quite luxurious, solid as a rock, and comfortable under all road conditions.
But regardless of my own personal concepts of luxury, I think the 4000 is a much better car than the 5000, and would recommend it even today to people who wanted a cheap and reliable AWD German sedan.
JOHN---I wouldn't pay $12K for ANY car with 156K on it, even a Rolls Royce. That's at least 3/4s of that car's life, and the best 3/4s, too. I think the 420 would be a better choice, as the 560 is a bloody tank. If you could find a lower mileage 420 with very good service records, that might serve you better all around I think. A friend of mine bought a very decent 560 for $8,000 just recently. Not show condition, but very nice. And somewhat lower mileage than the one you looked at.
RE; Audi 80----I think if your friend bought the car at $3K and spent an immediate $4K more, that it was unlikely that he had the car thoroughly checked out. Usually a thorough inspection will head off catastrophic failures like this.
I drove an 87 420SEL today, 67K miles, DOCUMENTED, I've seen every single repair ticket on the car (there are several...). Everything on the car is fabulous, the leather is perfect, the paint, excellent.
It gets a 6 month, 6000mi powertrain warranty (things NOT covered are AC, which blows cold now and which was replaced at 50K or so, power window regulators (the rear ones were replaced at 22K), but engine, tranny, differential, rear axle, all covered.
They wanted 16975, the lowest I could get was 14,900. All manuals are there, it was a one-owner Texas car (no rust), even the original Monroney sticker is in the bag! Original Continental spare....
JOHN---it does sound lovely, but it is a whopping high price on that car, and I agree with Bill, you could find a '91 for that money. The car is maybe worth $11,000, perhaps sky's the limit $12K. You must remember wholesale price for this '87 is around $7K and trade in value even less than that. So if you had to trade, or say lost the car in an accident, you would lose considerable money.
I think the 560 SEL is a great, powerful car, but it seems the 420 might be a better USED car (cheaper, slightly better fuel consumption, identical on the outside and a CONVENTIONAL non-air suspension, simpler and cheaper to fix).
About the only thing you give up in a 420 to a 560 otherwise is 37hp and a power, heated rear seat. FYI, the pre-89 cars have the non-supple leather (vertical stitching) and 89 on has the 'supple' leather with the horizontal stitching and diagonal door trim stitching. I think 89-91 also have body colored bumpers and lower trim in some cases, depending on body color (as opposed to gray or beige), but I'm not sure. Town and Country=horn settings, another little ditty in the 560 (two different tones for the horn).
Oh yeah, and there are 86-89 560s and 420s here in Chicago, all over the place, for like $5-11k. $12.9k is highish, and $14,900 for an 87 is way out there, even with records, low miles or not.
As for 300Es, my mom has an 88 with about 304k (the odo broke right after 300k) on the ORIGINAL engine and transmission, no rebuild on either. Amazing car.
Anyone out there have an opinion regarding this vehicle.
I have not yet had a look at it yet, has about 60k miles and asking price is 15k. I am replacing a van that has served us well for 10 years as we tend to keep what we buy for a long time. So with that in mind were looking to find something in this price range with a little sportiness and room for the two kids and dog.
We have a 87 325ic, a classic looker, if you ask me and we just luv the way it handles. So am interested in hearing from anyone who knows how this particular 5 series performs either good or bad.
Hi scramies----I think that since this is a modern car and not a "classic", that you would get more response in the other boards that have active BMW discussions, such as Sedans. This Board is meant only for older cars, something like 15++ years or more.
My dad sold his 87 560 SEL with 90k about 6 months ago for 10k. Car was in very good condition. I also had a 87 300E. Owned it from 97k to 187k. Only cost about 2k in repairs, but i could have spent a little more towards the end.I wish I still had it compared to the payment on my 2001 Accord.
always a dilemma achenator....even though modern cars are wonderful in many ways, few if any can match the build quality and solid feel of an older Benz. I think one of the only 'real' reasons to buy a modern car is the warranty, which is a nice thing to have! And maybe they are somewhat more safe, but I guess that depends on which new and which older cars one is comparing.
The biggest problem with older German luxury cars is that people get tempted by the cheap ones, which are often just the left-over beaters. Nothing can suck up money faster than an abused older Benz or BMW or Porsche.
Where do I get the definitive "how to " guide/book on benz turbo diesels. mine has 236K on it really clean and strong. wanna run it some more. thanks a lot.
The factory manuals are what you want. I have the set. There are three...one is engine, one service/maintenance, and the other chassis. Sometimes you see them on Ebay, but the dealer has them, too. Not cheap, but I've solved lots of problems using them and I feel they have more than paid for themselves. It's more info than you'll ever need perhaps, but I've also used the book to show to technicians who may not always be familiar with the older cars.
Repair procedures for 107, 114/115, 116, 123, 124, 126 and 201 series cars to 1991 are covered...disassembly, reassembly and some diagnosis. Areas covered are suspension systems, front and rear axles, steering, driveshaft, wheels, brakes, brake power booster and vacuum pump, engine electrical, body and chassis electrical, detachable body components, doors, glass and windows, sunroof, seats, interior covers and linings, and central locking system. The engine sections cover crankcase and cylinder head, crankshaft, valve timing, fuel injection systems, air cleaner, belts, intake and exhaust manifolds, emission systems, engine electrical and ignition system, lubrication system, cooling system, motor mounts, throttle controls, fuel tank and lines, and exhaust system. The A/C section covers components, operation, diagnosis, removal and installation. The electrical section covers ABS brakes, electric antenna, central lock system, electrical component locations, cruise control, A/C climate control and approximately 60 other electrical components and systems as well as providing all electrical diagrams.
You may find it hard to locate paper copies of some of the older manuals. The prices at PP tend to be a bit on the high side, but I have been satisfied with the products I've bought. They will mail out cataloges too.
I appreciate the comments...now disel heads are telling me to check out my timing chain...my mechanic in San Diego said he has 300k on his 300SDL and has no problems on his chain...what would it cost me to have someone look at my chain to see if i need to replace it i live in southern california... i've put a K&N filter and recently had 15w50 Mobil 1 put in my baby...any more "diesel tip" to keep this beast on the strong side...someone told me to drive her hard...don't baby her coz diesels love to be driven hard (80 miles on freeway)...more questions ...1) I wanted to give her a nice paint job...any ideas on the cost...should I strip her down or just paint over the existing paint 2) I also wanted to give her some new rims ...I found a powder coating place that would sandblast the old rime then bring them to original luster...any comments on this one...3)i'm shifting hard some times, should I ask some to ajust my bowden cable or is it a vaccum problem...THANKS AL OT...
Do not drive these diesels at excessive RPM. That is very, very bad advice! You'll crack the cylinder head sure as shootin'.
This is not a Peterbuilt truck with a diesel engine the size of a grand piano. This is a 3.0 liter precision engine that demands respect and maintenance.
You just stay at 75 mph or less and be happy. This is most definitely not a high RPM engine!
Hard shifting is normal for all 60s-80s Benzes. A major complaint from Americans. But of course check everything to make sure it's adjusted right.
I had a really nice (as nice as I've ever seen) 240D pass me last week going 80 mph on I-65 in the rain. At least I think it was a 240 and not a 300 because it had 'diesel' (not turbodiesel) badging and color-matched (butternut) hubcaps (not alloys). I guess it could have been a pre-82 300D. I didn't know they went that fast, seriously. I mean, wasn't this like 75hp in a 3000 lb. car?
Performance products still has some paper manuals according to a mailer I just received. You might give them a call to see if they still have your car.
If your in San Diego, may I suggest looking up Ziggy's Car Clinic on Autoport Mall just off Miramar Blvd. He has cared for 3 of my MBs over the years and I cannot say enough good things about him. Overall his charges are 50-70% of what Hohen MB has quoted on non-scheduled service. And in one rare event that he could not solve an electrical gremilin he sent me to a competetor who was a wizard in this aspect of cars. Rather than loosing my business he just reinforced that I want this kind of guy as my primary mechanic.
I'd also suggest getting a paint estimate at Amato's Auto Body down in Sorrento Valley. They are not cheap. But they are one of the best in San Diego. They disassemble, not mask. They wet sand and polish between coats, with 24 hours between coats. Over the years we have had the (unfortunate) need to use them several times for minor fender-bender and their paint match has been flawless, but it takes a full 5-7 days in the shop even for a small job, and there is usually a 3 week wait to get in. While at the shop, I've seen some of the restoration work they have going. Wow. ..... also, if your into interior restoration, check out Thomas' Auto Trim in the Sports Arena area. He is significantly less expensive than the cou[ple of other quality shops in town. And his work is very good. He did the interior and top of my wife's SL.
I have 233k on my 84 300 TD. Do i need to have it checked/changed. How much will it cost. What other service maintenance issues should i address with this car. ie. turbocharger, fuel injection, etc... thanks.
Considering purchasing an older european car. Perferably a coupe and maybe a convertible. Saw a 560sl in the paper and wanted to get peoples opinions/experience on this model.
Pretty good car...the best developed and best performing of all the V8 SLs. It's heavy and it eats gas but it's a very nice ride. The style is getting a bit old nowadays and there are a lot of them around, so check the market pricing carefully before shopping. It's not a "collectible" so there's no hurry in choosing just the right one.
I've seen 560SLs, even this year, as high as $30k and as low as $12k. 380s are WAY cheaper, but of course much slower. 380s generally (here in Chicago at least) are $7-14k, they were made from 81-85.
The 380 is kind of a dog...woof, woof on that car. $30K for a 560SL is beyond ridiculous. High teens low $20Ks for a nice one with decent miles is plenty of money.
the $30k car was a trailer queen, low mile, on the showroom floor, and the price was still a dream at that. I saw an 82 $4995 dealer special 380SL in the paper the other day. The picture looked OK, but that car must have been a basket case for that money.
For reference, my wife was given a 84 380SL, that was running, but needed mechanical work, good body and paint, but trashed interior. She really loved the car and no amount of persuation would get her to look at something else, so we restored it to a good daily driver condition. We spent about $6k mechanically and roughly $6K on the interior and top, and another $1K to take car of a small flaw in the paint. ...... Is it worth $13K??? I don't know but I can assure you, you will not buy one like it for $7K. (And the wife is happy, and that does count for something.)
So anyway, my point is that although $30K is out of bounds for a 560SL, mechanical, body and interior work is expensive and worth quite a bit. You may be much better off paying a small premium for a really nice low-milage car with all the records then buying on price alone.
ps: although Mr Shiftright thinks my wife's car barks, it really isn't that bad. The car is heavy, but the 380 is still a V8. And gets about 17PMG mixed city/hyw driving. Dropping the car out of overdrive peps it up a bit to. .... but contrary to popular belief, these old SLs were not really built as sports cars.
Well, you will forgive my careless remark I trust. No, it's not that bad a car at all, it's just that it could have been so much more with some effort from Mercedes.
When I quote prices on cars, I am suggesting everyday drivers, not restored or rebuilt cars. You know, the average car you find on the street in decent condition. Top Dollar for a 380SL (if you really want to sell it) should be around $15,000 for a very sharp car with low miles.
It never, ever pays to buy an SL dirt cheap & shabby that needs lots of work. Some cosmetics over a basically sound car, sure, no problem...but some neglected high mileage rat with dents and smoking engine? It's ready for scrap.
I imagine some time, years from now, I'll pry my wife's (cold, dead) hands off the steering wheel of that car, but not for a while. She love's it, and get's lots of admiring comments from people around town. It's almost like a cult. So many people love that old body style, and few really understand the differences between the 450, 380, and 560 ( and wasn't there a 350 for a year or two?). I figure it could have cost me a lot more to make her happy and I got off cheap at $13K plus yearly maintanence. Hell, just depreciation over 5 years for a regular Detroit job is worth that if not more, let alone a new MB.
But as you say it could have been more. If they had just imported the 500SL instead of making the 380SL. Oh well, at least the 84 has got the double timing chain refit. I think that would be a good reson to shy away from an 81-83 unless you're cracking it open anyway.
When the Sl first came to the US in 1972,it officially was called a 350SL 4.5. For emissions reasons the Euro 3.5 was enlarged to a 4.5. I recall that MB didn't want Euro buyers to feel cheated,so they downplayed the larger US engine. I think the 380SL is not so highly regarded because there were longevity problems with this alloy V-8. But it is a little lighter,and therefore maybe a little more nimble. It still is a bit ungainly,as a car finished in 1971 might feel to a modern driver. I wouldn't say the car per se is a dog,just that the engine is not as robust as one might hope. Except for lack of sheer grunt,I think it actually driver nicer than the 450.
Maybe...I just find it very clumsy and heavy for a two seater, and I don't like the body style...I thought the 280SLs were much prettier, and, as you say, the 500SLs were as well. Besides, I have the public on my side...the prices for old V8SLs continues to stagnate or drop in some cases. This is possibly due not to the car itself but the fact that they made a whole lot of them, so supply equals demand.
Comments
2. Now, I would classify it as a rolling wreck (especially since it was totalled and rebuilt), but I would say that the car had at least 10 good years of releability. I am not aware of any electrical problems currently or ever, but that's not to say that they have not happened because it's not my car and I don't keep that close tabs on the car.
Thanks!
But it's really not a "luxury" car either, so wasn't included on the Warning List for this discussion.
I'd not let Audi get off the hook on that one.
I had a Quantum and it was a great car for me even if things fell off it every few days. I remember regretting I sold it because it was so reliable. I never felt I was in luxury, though.
In a nod to another thread...I would rather spend money repairing my old Mercedes ('85 380SE) than making payments on some bland, appliance, Asian anony-mobile.
Why?
I like the sound of an OHC Benz V-8 winding past 5 grand in second. I like the panache of the Old World interior, wood, leather, but still decidedly minimalist. I will never own a car without character <---no Camry or Explorer lemming here!
Why buy new when you can pick up a great used Benz or BMW? Why not get some character?
If you see a problem with this, read some of the posts at www.mercedesshop.com or www.bmwplanet.com, you may start to understand.
-Sam
Actually wasn't intending to nitpick but rather keeping us all on topic...this discussion is about German Luxury Cars and as host I felt the 4000 needed to be discussed elsewhere, perhaps an "Older German Sedans" discussion--if you'd like to start one?
>>>>
Oh man, no thanks. I can see it now, 100 LS vs Bavaria, or Mercedes 220 POS or Not? Honestly I can think of only four German cars I've ever coveted.
1) 1972-1973 911S
2) 3.0 CSL
3) Sport Quattro (worlds fastest AMC Gremlin)
4) That Capri race car (built by Zakspeed?) with the Cosworth V8.
Audi is a luxury marque so therefore we should be able to discuss the 4000 series. So theoretically is the A6 not allowed to be discussed because it's shared platforms with the Passat?
Singling out one car is silly. I wouldn't consider the 325i a luxury car either, but i highly doubt anyone would single that out.
I'd really like to focus the discussion on obvious luxury cars, not borderline.
The 5000 Quattro Wagon is a bit of a minor collectible these days. You can get way more money for them than for an ordinary 2WD sedan. Great ski car!
Audi 5000 engines were great and they were a quality product...the cars were just plagued with other issues, like the early automatics, some overheating, electrical gltiches, and, of course, the dreadful hatchet job done by 60 minutes.
As for high mileages reached, that's as much a tribute to the particular Audi owner as it is to the car.
Um, actually, no.
Audi 4000=Audi A4
Audi 5000=Audi A6
Volkswagen Quantum=VW Passat (based on 4000 mechanicals, geez, just like today's Passat!)
Audi didn't have an A8 equivalent until 1990, when the V-8 Quattro came out. Little known-fact: there are 5-speed V8 Quattros out there....I want one!!!
VW has pretty much always had an analogous product line since the early 1980s. The Jetta and its cousins may have moved upmarket, but dang, no one else has either (note the sarcasm).
An Audi 4000 Quattro could be quite similarly equipped to compete with its competitors, the BMW 325e/i/is/iX and Mercedes 190E 2.3. 3-series Bimmers of that day didn't have power seats or automatic climate control, and I believe the Benz had power seats and "real" leather (as opposed to leatherette) as options.
I recall an old ROAD and TRACK test comparing the Audi Fox with a Volvo 244,BMW 320i,Lancia Beta sedan,Saab 99 etc.All of them now are looked at as fairly "premium" cars,no? Why not allow the Fox/4000 to slip by? I thought the Fox a great,roarty car-if I could have bought anything back then I would have loved a Fox.
Both the 4000 and Fox commanded a fairly high price.
I still see lots of used Audis but I don't think I'd ever buy one because they're so expensive to repair; I have two friends who had old Audis, one had to sell a 5000 turbo cuz the transmission alone was going to be $3500 to replace. I had another friend who had an 80, he paid like $3k for the car and literally about $4k in repairs the first year he had it. He sold it with a bad radiator for $650. Yikes.
A former MBZ owner (87 300E, which I miss), I want to get back into an older Benz. Since I've already owned a 300E, I was thinking of a 85-91 420SEL or 560SEL. I know the obvious differences, horsepower, torque, 420 doesn't have heated seats, rear levelling, rear (!) power seats, etc. I don't really care about that. And I think the power difference wouldn't bother me either, if I landed on a 420, though I do NOT know the mileage difference. The 560 I drove today supposedly gets 15mpg.
Anyway, the question is: what am I missing? The 89 560SEL I drove today has 154K on it; it's being sold by a very reputable used MBZ dealer. There were some problems all of which the sales manager agreed with and said would fix. And, if nothing else, the AC blew cold. They're asking $12,900, which seems too high. Whaddayou think? (They just got the car in last week, it's an Arizona car, no rust, good leather, just needs cleaning.)
Also, any differences between 420 and 560 that are important to consider? Is either cheaper to work on mechanically than the other?
Also, in the 560SEL, what on earth is the button on the lower console, in the middle (Town and Country, the salesman said). I was too embarrassed to ask what that meant. And, how much of a PITA (pain in the....) is that self-levelling business?
thanks in advance
JOHN
But regardless of my own personal concepts of luxury, I think the 4000 is a much better car than the 5000, and would recommend it even today to people who wanted a cheap and reliable AWD German sedan.
JOHN---I wouldn't pay $12K for ANY car with 156K on it, even a Rolls Royce. That's at least 3/4s of that car's life, and the best 3/4s, too. I think the 420 would be a better choice, as the 560 is a bloody tank. If you could find a lower mileage 420 with very good service records, that might serve you better all around I think. A friend of mine bought a very decent 560 for $8,000 just recently. Not show condition, but very nice. And somewhat lower mileage than the one you looked at.
RE; Audi 80----I think if your friend bought the car at $3K and spent an immediate $4K more, that it was unlikely that he had the car thoroughly checked out. Usually a thorough inspection will head off catastrophic failures like this.
It gets a 6 month, 6000mi powertrain warranty (things NOT covered are AC, which blows cold now and which was replaced at 50K or so, power window regulators (the rear ones were replaced at 22K), but engine, tranny, differential, rear axle, all covered.
They wanted 16975, the lowest I could get was 14,900. All manuals are there, it was a one-owner Texas car (no rust), even the original Monroney sticker is in the bag! Original Continental spare....
I don't think I can resist.............
thanks,
JOHN
And it does have all the service records... Methinks you can find a 1990-1991 that's as nice for that kinda cash..
Bill
So if you had to trade, or say lost the car in an accident, you would lose considerable money.
About the only thing you give up in a 420 to a 560 otherwise is 37hp and a power, heated rear seat. FYI, the pre-89 cars have the non-supple leather (vertical stitching) and 89 on has the 'supple' leather with the horizontal stitching and diagonal door trim stitching. I think 89-91 also have body colored bumpers and lower trim in some cases, depending on body color (as opposed to gray or beige), but I'm not sure. Town and Country=horn settings, another little ditty in the 560 (two different tones for the horn).
Oh yeah, and there are 86-89 560s and 420s here in Chicago, all over the place, for like $5-11k. $12.9k is highish, and $14,900 for an 87 is way out there, even with records, low miles or not.
As for 300Es, my mom has an 88 with about 304k (the odo broke right after 300k) on the ORIGINAL engine and transmission, no rebuild on either. Amazing car.
I have not yet had a look at it yet, has about 60k miles and asking price is 15k. I am replacing a van that has served us well for 10 years as we tend to keep what we buy for a long time. So with that in mind were looking to find something in this price range with a little sportiness and room for the two kids and dog.
We have a 87 325ic, a classic looker, if you ask me and we just luv the way it handles. So am interested in hearing from anyone who knows how this particular 5 series performs either good or bad.
best,
mr. Shiftright
Host
Classics Board
The biggest problem with older German luxury cars is that people get tempted by the cheap ones, which are often just the left-over beaters. Nothing can suck up money faster than an abused older Benz or BMW or Porsche.
Repair procedures for 107, 114/115, 116, 123, 124, 126 and 201 series cars to 1991 are covered...disassembly, reassembly and some diagnosis. Areas covered are suspension systems, front and rear axles, steering, driveshaft, wheels, brakes, brake power booster and vacuum pump, engine electrical, body and chassis electrical, detachable body components, doors, glass and windows, sunroof, seats, interior covers and linings, and central locking system. The engine sections cover crankcase and cylinder head, crankshaft, valve timing, fuel injection systems, air cleaner, belts, intake and exhaust manifolds, emission systems, engine electrical and ignition system, lubrication system, cooling system, motor mounts, throttle controls, fuel tank and lines, and exhaust system. The A/C section covers components, operation, diagnosis, removal and installation. The electrical section covers ABS brakes, electric antenna, central lock system, electrical component locations, cruise control, A/C climate control and approximately 60 other electrical components and systems as well as providing all electrical diagrams.
You may find it hard to locate paper copies of some of the older manuals. The prices at PP tend to be a bit on the high side, but I have been satisfied with the products I've bought. They will mail out cataloges too.
i've put a K&N filter and recently had 15w50 Mobil 1 put in my baby...any more "diesel tip" to keep this beast on the strong side...someone told me to drive her hard...don't baby her coz diesels love to be driven hard (80 miles on freeway)...more questions ...1) I wanted to give her a nice paint job...any ideas on the cost...should I strip her down or just paint over the existing paint 2) I also wanted to give her some new rims ...I found a powder coating place that would sandblast the old rime then bring them to original luster...any comments on this one...3)i'm shifting hard some times, should I ask some to ajust my bowden cable or is it a vaccum problem...THANKS AL OT...
NO! NO! NO!
Do not drive these diesels at excessive RPM. That is very, very bad advice! You'll crack the cylinder head sure as shootin'.This is not a Peterbuilt truck with a diesel engine the size of a grand piano. This is a 3.0 liter precision engine that demands respect and maintenance.
You just stay at 75 mph or less and be happy. This is most definitely not a high RPM engine!
Hard shifting is normal for all 60s-80s Benzes. A major complaint from Americans. But of course check everything to make sure it's adjusted right.
I didn't know they went that fast, seriously. I mean, wasn't this like 75hp in a 3000 lb. car?
If your in San Diego, may I suggest looking up Ziggy's Car Clinic on Autoport Mall just off Miramar Blvd. He has cared for 3 of my MBs over the years and I cannot say enough good things about him. Overall his charges are 50-70% of what Hohen MB has quoted on non-scheduled service. And in one rare event that he could not solve an electrical gremilin he sent me to a competetor who was a wizard in this aspect of cars. Rather than loosing my business he just reinforced that I want this kind of guy as my primary mechanic.
Diesel's speed---oh, you can go 90+ in a 240 or 300D but you're asking for trouble.
I saw an 82 $4995 dealer special 380SL in the paper the other day. The picture looked OK, but that car must have been a basket case for that money.
So anyway, my point is that although $30K is out of bounds for a 560SL, mechanical, body and interior work is expensive and worth quite a bit. You may be much better off paying a small premium for a really nice low-milage car with all the records then buying on price alone.
ps: although Mr Shiftright thinks my wife's car barks, it really isn't that bad. The car is heavy, but the 380 is still a V8. And gets about 17PMG mixed city/hyw driving. Dropping the car out of overdrive peps it up a bit to. .... but contrary to popular belief, these old SLs were not really built as sports cars.
When I quote prices on cars, I am suggesting everyday drivers, not restored or rebuilt cars. You know, the average car you find on the street in decent condition. Top Dollar for a 380SL (if you really want to sell it) should be around $15,000 for a very sharp car with low miles.
It never, ever pays to buy an SL dirt cheap & shabby that needs lots of work. Some cosmetics over a basically sound car, sure, no problem...but some neglected high mileage rat with dents and smoking engine? It's ready for scrap.
But as you say it could have been more. If they had just imported the 500SL instead of making the 380SL. Oh well, at least the 84 has got the double timing chain refit. I think that would be a good reson to shy away from an 81-83 unless you're cracking it open anyway.
I think the 380SL is not so highly regarded because there were longevity problems with this alloy V-8. But it is a little lighter,and therefore maybe a little more nimble. It still is a bit ungainly,as a car finished in 1971 might feel to a modern driver.
I wouldn't say the car per se is a dog,just that the engine is not as robust as one might hope. Except for lack of sheer grunt,I think it actually driver nicer than the 450.