USED European Luxury Cars (pre 1990)

Mr_Shiftright

Best to keep an egg-timer in the car to time the 0-60 times.

ghulet

The first car I financed was a used '85 Golf, in about 1988. I was planning a trip to Chicago (from St. Louis) the weekend I bought it, but the dealer hadn't prepped my car yet, so they gave me a loaner Fox for the weekend. I wasn't thrilled with the 4-speed on the highway, but I generally thought the Fox was a fun car to drive. It was reasonably quick, though those skinny 13" tires didn't help ride or handling much.

speedshift

I heard good things about the Fox at the time, aside from their very limited headroom. I think I drove a used one, or maybe I just sat in one. They weren't available with automatic so that killed their chances here.

I borrowed my father's diesel Rabbit pickup a few times and discovered I was driving it foot to the floor without realizing it. Whenever someone tailgated me I just gave him a blast of diesel smoke.

jrosasmc

Anyone remember the '66-'73 Type 3 1600 and the '71-'74 Type 4 411/412 that VW offered for a while? Total failures, not to mention "The Thing."

jrosasmc

The most unsuccessful Mercedes product of recent times?

ghulet

Weren't these aka the 'fastback' and 'squareback'? I dunno how many they sold, but I do remember seeing *quite* a few when I was a kid (early/mid 70s), so I don't think they were complete failures. People likely had a problem spending a bit more money than a Bug but having the same engine (IIRC). I do think their styling has held up remarkably well, though. The squareback in particular is a pretty cool looking car to me.

mminerbi

Shiftright, what are the compensating offsets to the slow acceleration that appeal to you the most about your Mercedes 300D, and why do you prefer it (presumably) to its domestic counterparts?

Mr_Shiftright

The slow acceleration appeals to me sometimes because I am a very aggessive driver and I need to slow down occasionally. That peaceful thump thump thump of the diesel as you go down the road is rather pacifying, and the car is so solid and comfortable that it really eats up the miles even though you aren't going very fast. So it's an interesting contrast from my Alfa.

Also, the thing is bullet-proof. Rain, snow, mountains, heat, day, night, ruts, bumps, gravel, dirt, wind,....it just doesn't care, it just keeps chugging. And it's got good heat, a/c, stereo, sunroof, comfy seats and one of those long-range fuel tanks (35 gallon).

So the operating costs, between needing repair quite infrequently and the economy of the diesel (feul isn't cheap in California, but it delivers a solid 25 mpg, which is great for such a big car), are very low as well.

It's a great working car, but certainly not for everyone.

jrosasmc

The old VW Bugs and Buses used body-on-frame construction, right?

jrosasmc

That I drove an '80 Vanagon Camper once. Thing couldn't get out of its own way.

Mr_Shiftright

Oh, I think a Mercedes 300d, even normally aspirated, would cream a VW vanagon, both in acceleration and in a collision!

No, VWs weren't body on frame as I recall.

jrosasmc

Here's what I recall about '60s and '70s Mercedes sedans: They never quit running.

Mr_Shiftright

They were well built, but they didn't tolerate abuse.

spratl

I was just wondering if anybody had an advice on a 97 S600. Is it a good car. It is an extremely costly car to own. I may be purchasing one with 76K on it and all the records from the same MB dealer.....thanks

sddlw

These kinds of cars are very tempting. To be able to spend the money for a mid-luxury car and drive a marquee that defines luxury.....but very complex and expensive to repair. Still, with a decent maintenance budget, it's a fair guess you will spend less than a new one under warrantee....just not guaranteed. Sometimes the payments (or present value of money) plus the maintanence costs will come out not that much less than a lease payment with today's rates. The only difference would be residual ownership down the road.

im_brentwood

An S500 is a better bet.. the S600s are HEAVY on fuel.

That being said, they arent worth much more than an S500.

How much $$ can ya get it for?

Bill

Mr_Shiftright

I'd only consider it if you STOLE it, because the resale value is going to keep going down rapidly as the car ages. I agree, a 500 is a better choice all around.

jrosasmc

Overall, how would you rate these Audi models from the 80s/90s:

'84-91 5000/100/200; '90-94 V8 Quattro; '92-'95 S4

Mr_Shiftright

I think the list goes from dreadful to so-so to pretty good as the years go up.

magnetophone

I had a chance to buy an 87 4000 (like one of the last years they put it out) for a good price - i hear after the major problems in the early years they were actually well-behaved. Any thoughts?

ghulet

....on what you consider a 'good price', IMO. Doesn't the base 4000 (not the Quattro, those have the 5-cylinder from the 5000) have basically the same engine as the Jetta/Golf? If so, that's a pretty durable engine, if underpowered for the heavier Audi. Still, I can't imagine paying more than about $1500 for it, unless it's in unusually great condition.

spratl

The S600 belongs to a friend's parents and they are letting me drive it for the weekend. So far I like the car and can probably get it for 35k-40k. It seems to really like it when you open it up. Although I heard some stories from my friend about the car this evening. Like "there was this one time...., and "at about 125mph the car feels well planted on the road". I hope this isn't a sign that the car has been driven hard it's whole life. But before I agree to anything I'm going to take a look at a 500.....

ghulet

At $35-40k, it's at about a third its original MSRP, IIRC. I'm sure this car *likes* being driven quickly, that's what it was made for. Have fun.
I would assume this car is 'spensive to keep up, but probably not a whole lot more than the S500 (though you were warned about fuel consumption). Maybe I'm wrong about upkeep vs. S500 (anyone?). In most neighborhoods, you will not see another, which is kinda nice.

Mr_Shiftright

You could check with the dealer on maintenance costs. 125 mph is loafing for that car.

jrosasmc

I can also safely comment that the interior quality of most German cars began to improve greatly starting around 1990. VW didn't get better until at least '98.

ghulet

......I just was in a Mercedes at the Chicago Auto Show, and it didn't seem quite as 'sturdy' on the inside as my mom's old 300E ('88), though the E320 was quite a bit roomier.

im_brentwood

hehehe... I just put my 1970 280S twin-carb on a Dyno...

94.7hp (And its not running quite right either...) at the rear wheels. I was surprised!

Bill

Mr_Shiftright

LOL...well, Bill, don't let it get away from ya!

Geez, imagine if I dynoe'd my 300 diesel!

speedshift

35 mph is loafing for that car ;-).

im_brentwood

Had I known ahead of time.. I'd have Dyno'd the Vauxhall ))

Bill

speedshift

That would be a dyno reading with only trace amounts of horsepower.

Mr_Shiftright

We call it fractional horsepower in the trade. Milliponies is the unit value.

ghulet

....anyone here know anything about the BMW 533i (apologies if this has been asked before)? I would imagine Bill and Shifty can tell me something(?). I know the basic stats ('83-84 only, replaced by 535i, 181hp, etc.). I've seen two for sale near me *really* cheap (~$1500), I just want to know what to look for mechanically (these aren't cheap to fix, I know). The nice thing about the 533 as opposed to the 535s is that they're spared some mechanical complexity (ABS, power seats, trip computers, etc.). I might look at these as a daily driver (not expecting incredible reliability or anything). I have read something along the lines of 'if you find one, make sure it has LSD.'

I guess If I'm going to have a bothersome Euro car, it might as well be fast (my 900S is bothersome but not at all fast).

jrosasmc

Think about a '92 or '93 Audi 100 and 90 sedan. Since the resale value is practically nil, you can pick up one of these for cheap.

magnetophone

I almost bought a 90 CS quattro with the 2.8 engine in it. It had a great ride and handling and looked good. But I was sort of frightened that a 1993 90 with 68,000 miles seemed too low and probalbly had issues.

Mr_Shiftright

Audis--the quattro system is excellent and generally trouble-free. Probably the major issues on the older Audis (AFTER the dreadful 5000) center around electrical glitches, noisy valve lifters (relief valve in head can be replaced) and the need for a very clean cooling system.

BMW 533i--one of the universale caveats of 80s BMWs is cracked cylinder heads, so any old BMW that isn't running quite right, needs to have this potential problem investigated. If you see any signs of overheating (rusty stains under the hood, corrosion and staining on the outside of the radiator, filthy coolant) I'd be wary. A rebuilt cylinder head can cost more than the whole damn car!

Other than that, mostly you face the obstacle of what to do if something big goes wrong. Generally, these cars are so expensive to repair that if you lose a major component (engine, trans, differential, body damage) you might as well junk it.

Any older German sedan is fine to buy if you are willing to walk away from it when it breaks; otherwise, you are throwing money down a hole. Ultimately, all older 4-door BMWs, Benzes Audis, etc, are going to the recycler, so don't ride these down to the bottom. Buy the good ones, use 'em up and enjoy them. They can give a lot of miles and enjoyment if you pick a good one, since the build quality far surpasses and Japanese or American product of that time period.

magnetophone

Yeah, that's exactly why I got a very low mile 190E. This car still to me doesn't seem "old" as it had under 70K when I got it, and I have 100% of the service records and can see that it has had no repairs at all. Just maintenance. So I expect another 150K of enjoyment. From what I hear, the 2.6 engine will last me 400K if I'm willing to replace a transmission.

My mom suggested I get a Toyota Cressida instead. They're actually comparable cars in many ways. This car actually had a minor status as a "cool car". It was sort of the Japanese Mercedes 300 when it came out in the 70's. I still see many of them running around looking very good still. I saw an 1987 wagon model on a car lot for only $2000 and the interior was amazingly solid - in fact it was easily the best car I've seen in terms long-term Japanese build quality. I really wanted this one!

im_brentwood

Well..

I put over 100K on a 1984 Stick. Drove the heck outta it too..

What goes wrong (Aside from the obvious):

Front suspension bushings.
STOCK Tires are the sucky and very expensive 200-60VR390 Michelin TRXs. It ought to have 15" Wheels.
AC system is decent, but they are usually broken. The condensor (Little radiator in front of big radiator) tends to leak.

Bill

ghulet

...don't really have too much in common, Matt, IMO (my mother has had both an '86 Cress and '88 300E). I guess on paper they were similar (RWD, mid-sized, inline six engine, etc.) but that's about where the similarities end. The 300 is definitely larger, roomier and the trunk is about twice as big, IIRC. Also, the Cress was loaded with wierd '80s electronic gadgets (an auto-close with a warning beeper on the sunroof, a secondary 'pod' next to the steering wheel with radio controls, etc.) whereas the 300 is more traditional German luxo in its features. They're both nice cars though. I do still see Cressidas around every now and then (the second generation '85-88s especially).

Here's another strange one. My brother's ex-girlfriend is considering buying her uncle's '83 (4-speed, fortunately) Mercedes 240D (with 120k, in excellent condition) to replace her Ford Festiva. I hate to say it, but I don't know which has worse acceleration, but I'd almost bet the 240. I realize the Benz is durable, but can this be considered a practical daily driver (in Chicago)? Do they need much maintenance, and when they do, is it expensive? Oh yeah, she's still in college and the price is $3500. I can't help but think she can find something a bit more suitable in that price range.

Mr_Shiftright

Well uncle isn't exactly giving little niece a break, is he? That's about top dollar for that car.

Yeah, it's a dog on acceleration, although being a 4-speed might help a bit. I trust she is an alert driving because she is going to have SUVs breathing down her neck unless she mashes the pedal to the fuel and KEEPS in there all day.

No, they don't need lots of maintenance, but they need someone who is very diligent about fuel additives and filter changing. If she's a klutz with cars, a 240D and her are a deadly combination. If she's really on top of it with her cars, no problem, it will probably serve her well.
Oh, yeah, diesels really HATE to run out of fuel, so please inform her that is an absolute no-no. And use Redline cetane booster and injector cleaner in every tankful.

jaserb

When I was in high school, a friend's dad owned a 240D. One day he started having all the classic "uh-oh" heart attack symptoms - pain in the chest radiating down the arms, everything. Being understandably scared, he decided to drive to the hospital himself rather than wait for an ambulance. On top of that, he had to stop halfway there and switch places with my friend because he couldn't drive any more. I can't imagine the ambulance would have taken any less time then that little trip. The really weird part was that they walked past my friend's reasonably fast Datsun 280Z to get in the Benz! Luckily everything turned out ok, and last I heard he's still kicking. I guess the moral of the story is that the 240D is NOT a car for someone in a hurry.

Jason

Mr_Shiftright

Bad getaway car, too, as you could be run down on foot.

Seriously though, if you are very attentive and epoxy that gas pedal to the floor (don't lose revs, stay in the right gear, speed up for hills), you can get by. And if you are in Iowa or such, generally no problem. But places like Colorado, forgeddaboutit!

ghulet

....Like I said, for a young woman who likely knows *zilch* about cars, I don't think a twenty year-old 240D is anywhere near the most ideal car she can find (especially not for $3500!!).

On another note, I saw a *really* clean '82 BMW 528e yesterday (it had the '82-only BMW/BBS wheels). I know this car isn't much fun, either (compared to the 533i especially), but it's kind of cool looking.

Mr_Shiftright

Yep, a 528e takes the "fun" out of fahrfegnuven or however you spell it! If you're going to buy an old BMW sedan, which are not the world's best cars to begin with, you might as well put your money in one that doesn't require reading a magazine while you accelerate. How 'bout a nice 635csi or an L7...they are still pretty cheap and attractive and fun to drive. Or even a 528i would be way more interesting.

jrosasmc

Or what about an early '80s VW Jetta or Quantum?

ghulet

Quantums had the Audi 5-cylinder, which I personally wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole, especially not in a VW (you might as well have the Audi name if you're going to deal with this engine). Jettas are OK mechanically, but far from fast (that *is* what we were talking about, right?) and their build quality is less than impressive. Either I guess would be OK as a 'beater', but I can think of better German sedans and better beaters for sure.

jrosasmc

How do you know that the first Jettas' build quality was unimpressive?

Mr_Shiftright

The junkyards speak volumes.

ghulet

My family and I have owned the following Volkswagens:

64 Beetle
81 Scirocco
83 GTI
85 Jetta GL
85 Golf GL
89 Golf GL
91 GTI 16v

I think that makes me fairly qualified to comment on the build quality of '80s Volkswagens, no?

Of those, the Scirocco probably had the best build quality (built in Germany), the Golfs and Jetta had suspension and electrical problems, and all three had at least one door that wouldn't open from the outside.

Mr_Shiftright

Given the times they were built in, and the price you paid, it wasn't so bad.