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USED European Luxury Cars (pre 1990)

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Comments

  • mminerbimminerbi Member Posts: 88
    A common thread through most messages on this topic is the very high cost for repairs and maintenance (parts and labor), which translates into high costs per mile for German luxury cars versus Japanese and domestic brands. The same holds true for other European luxury models. There's no escaping the relatively high ownership costs with European models. Buy new and you pay a premium price, thereby losing more per mile in depreciation and opportunity costs over time; buy used, and the maintenance and repairs keep operating costs high.

    This raises a host of questions. For example, with cars such as the new Infiniti G35, Lexus LS, and Cadillac CTS arguably closing the performance, styling, and driving dynamics gaps with the European models, will the European cars continue to be relatively high cost rides? Or, will the competition force costs of operation to equalize? How much of the life cycle operating cost differential is attributable to the prestige of the marques?

    Comments?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I think a lot, although certainly not all, of these high "maintenance" costs are really not maintenance costs, but repair costs stemming from *postponed* maintenance.

    In other words, I think American drivers tend to "withdraw" from their car's bank account (that is, use the car) but do not "deposit" anything periodically except when the car begs for it.

    Well, when an expensive German car begs for something, it doesn't hold out a small cup. It grabs you by the ankles and shakes you until all the coins roll out of your pocket.

    You are MUCH better off giving that Benz or BMW the $1000 a year in fastidious maintenance and stop pretending it's a Camry. It's not. It is more complex than a Camry, and more narrowly engineered (that is, it does things with more precision).

    Modern Japanese luxury cars or the German-American CTS will be hell to repair when they are old and out of warranty, if something major goes wrong. Pity the man, for instance, who has to replace the special shock absorbers/suspension on his older and now hard-riding Infiniti Q45. How does $4,500 sound?
  • im_brentwoodim_brentwood Member Posts: 4,883
    Heck.

    I have seen a lot of older Japanese HighTech cars that require a ton of maintinence. Q45s? Supras?

    Shifty is dead spot on on the Q45s with the computer-controlled shocks. A set of which ften exceed the cars' wholesale value!

    Bill
  • mminerbimminerbi Member Posts: 88
    What you're saying, Shiftright and Brentwood Volvo, is that there ain't no free lunch. While it will be several years before Acuras, Infinitis, and Lexuses qualify as antiques, it will be interesting to see whether as many people will spend more than the market value of the vehicle to restore these, compared with Alfas, BMWs, Jaguars, and Mercedes. Put another way, will the European luxury brands continue to have what appears to be a prestige and cache' edge over competing Japanese brands, or, for that matter, Cadillacs and Lincolns? That's very important to the manufacturers, since it gives them pricing power on new models.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I don't think the prestige Japanese or American brands will be saved at all with some rare exceptions, such as the NSX and perhaps the Viper. The only thing that could save a modern American or Japanese car from destruction would be some enormous horsepowerand/ or extraordinary performance potential. But the styling and their large production numbers of the average Japanese or American car preclude them ever becoming collectors items. They will be run until the are crashed or wear out and then they will be junked.

    To be fair, most European sedans have suffered, and will suffer, the same fate. But since Europe has produced many stylish coupes and roadsters in limited enough numbers in the past, large restoration costs do not deter the collector. But why try to restore a C5 Corvette when you can just go buy another? There must be 200,000 on the road. But a Z8, NSX, 911 Turbo, and maybe even a Viper, these cars will live on I think, despite the considerable complexity.
  • mminerbimminerbi Member Posts: 88
    Shiftright, do you think that Buick Reattas and Cadillac Allantes, both relatively low production cars, will be among the "rare exceptions"?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    No, They have already shown to be of minor collectible status with very little sign of further appreciation. I'd say they've "bottomed out" which means they won't be cheaper but will only increase slightly with inflation.

    Most of the ones I've seen are not driven much anyway, so you'll see them around for some time. But you won't see them being dragged out of barns or from the bottom of lakes to be restored. If you crash an Allante, you'll probably junk it.

    Of course, every man is free to restore whatever he wishes, be that a foolish economic move or not.
  • carnut4carnut4 Member Posts: 574
    I remember your comments on the Viper in much earlier posts, I think in another topic. Anyway, your comments weren't too complimentary. And, I agreed with what you said, except that I thought the Viper might be a future collectible just because of its performance, and somewhat unique status. Do you remember what you said about the Viper before? I'm just curious-why do you think now, that it might be a future collectible, with some value? Also, what do you think about the Prowler?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Oh, I still think the Viper is hideous, crude and over the top in all respects, with all the "prestige" of a Harley trike etc. etc., but not every car I like becomes collectible and not every car I dislike is junked. I'm trying to be somewhat objective about what the market will do, not what I would do if I were God (and you can thank him/her I'm not!)

    Basically, what I was saying is that any car with 400HP will always get some attention, unless the day comes when such cars are absolutely useless to drive. Even then, maybe they will end up like steam locomotives in a shed somewhere.

    I don't think the Viper will ever be really valuable but I think most of these cars will be kept running by people who love them unless of course they are totalled.

    Viper values haven't bottomed out yet and we don't know how low they will go. So far, they are just falling through $30,000 and may reach $25K or lower. If that is the case, a totalled Viper will not be restored I don't think as it would not pay to do so, and there are still perhaps 15,000 of them out there anyway.

    Prowlers will be second-tier collectibles, minor celebrities like Deloreans and Studebakers. Again, I don't see them as becoming really valuable cars.
  • c43amg7c43amg7 Member Posts: 32
    With the continued production and improvements and upgrades in the Vipers from year to year, I think that we may well see a situation not unlike that of the Allante -- the later, more refined models [with the same or better performance levels] will be more valuable than the cruder, more difficult-to-drive earlier years. To the extent that U.S. gas prices rise to reflect the true status of the wasting oil asset (the world-wide oil price is, of course, being artificially held down for political reasons) -- see, e.g., European prices -- the Viper may well go the way of the dinosaur, with a few examples kept by those who can afford to occasionally drive them as a plaything.

    In any event, with continued developments in engine and drive train technology, Viper-like performance may become more commonplace (with better fuel consumption and driving comfort) -- who will then want a crude old-fashioned monster [particularly at a collector premium] when a modern, under-warranty and comfortable car can offer similar performance?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Only the real hard-line purists will want the older cars, and while I feel Ferraris breed this kind of loyalty, I don't think Vipers do.

    For that matter, a Gullwing is no joy to drive (the best kept secret of the 300SLs is that the roadster is cheaper and way more enjoyable to drive).
  • carnut4carnut4 Member Posts: 574
    any of the asking prices for any year Viper, when you look at all the great cars out there available for the same money in any of those price ranges. Ditto for the Prowler. I don't see many Vipers around here. Just who buys them anyway? Anyway, this is off topic. A Viper shouldn't even be discussed in the same paragraph as Mercedes and BMW. My two bits...
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I think the subject came up when we were talking about how the complexity of modern machines will affect their restoration in the future.
  • im_brentwoodim_brentwood Member Posts: 4,883
    No kidding on a Gullwing!

    My one ride in one involved Long Island Expressway rush-hour traffic inJuly.

    That SUCKED!

    Bill
  • merckxmerckx Member Posts: 565
    I agree-I've always respected the Gullwing,but the convert 300 SL I've always loved. Those long "brows"over the wheels. The car is just magnificent.

    On the Barrett-Jackson auction on Speedvision,did anyone see the 300 SL convert? It looked like light lavender,and was the canvas top a darker lavender? Or do I need a new color TV? This combination isn't factory,is it?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I'm sure they've have a three day debate of experts about it....lol!
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    Would early 90s Audi 100s and BMW 5-Series with over 100k miles still need a thorough lookover before making a final purchase.
  • im_brentwoodim_brentwood Member Posts: 4,883
    ANY car that's 10 years old needs a proper lookover. There's ALWAYS stuff that needs doing :)

    Bill
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    That's a dangerous mileage, because it is "low" enough for the car to still look good, but "high" enough for many things to be worn out or close to it.
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    My father and I test-drove an '88 BMW 528e a number of years ago. It was an automatic, and the thing was completely gutless when accelerating. My Jeep Cherokee definitely felt faster than that Bimmer.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    The 528e is one of those BMWs that I rarely recommend--same with the 320i, the Bavaria, and the older 7 Series cars. These are just not BMWs best efforts.

    However, the 528i is much more fun to drive, especially with a manual transmission. That would be an okay older BMW to own.
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    Why don't you ever recommend the 320i or the Bavaria?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I think they are substandard automobiles, poor performers, and money-pits. Also, they aren't worth anything, so why sink money into them. They'd be okay "hobby cars" that you could buy cheap and tinker with using junk parts (maybe).
  • magnetophonemagnetophone Member Posts: 605
    What about a mid-70's 2002 4-door sedan?
  • merckxmerckx Member Posts: 565
    I understand not being impressed with the 320i,seeings how it had to follow the much beloved 2002.
    But the Bavaria being a dog...doesn't it have a 3 litre engine? With a four speed,I'd think it would be fairly peppy.
    Also,wasn't it one of those Max Hoffman creations,like the Speedster and the 300SL convert?
    I recall that Max suggested taking the 3.0 sedan,adding some options,getting rid of the leather,and lowering the price.
    When new,the press seemed to be overjoyed at this new creation. So when I infrequently see one,I tend to give it respect.

    Shifty,could you comment further on the Bavaria,please?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well, I hardly know where to start. The cars are rather noisy, there's lots of body roll, the twin Zenith carbs are the worst imaginable, they rust, they are hideously expensive to fix and parts are really hard to get. Other than that, they are nice old cruisers.

    For all the pain, effort and money, just go buy a 5 series and be done with it. Much better car and far less hassles.

    Early 70s 2002s are nice cars, if you can get used to the German Atomic Toaster styling. I don't think the 75-76s are as attractive, nor are they as fast, and obviously the market doesn't think so either, as 75-76s are priced lower than the early 70s models. The 2002Tii is a fun car, and really the only valuable 2002 worth collecting aside from the Baur convertible.
  • ghuletghulet Member Posts: 2,564
  • starrow68starrow68 Member Posts: 1,142
    Just for the record on your 200k C5's. The model is only in it's 6th year and less than 10k got produced in '97. About 144k up to the 2002 and that should push 180k out of this year so you are just a little ahead of yourself.

    As for it's staying power, I admit our '71 280SL is more of an event when out driving but not a lot more than a 2002 Electron Blue Metallic Coupe. I know the C4's are not collector items but there are 14 years of them out there and some are in fantastic shape and in some cases seem to get better with age, and lots of care. Guess it goes back to all the electronics, not sure I would want to deal with HUD and DIC codes after more than 10 years myself if I could still afford the newer one. But that leaves all the older ones for guys that only drove Mustangs or F-Bodys until they could get into something more powerful, and they still have 350 hp.
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    Even a most basic Volvo S70 with a 5-speed or auto would blow the doors off any BMW Bavaria, despite its 5-cylinder?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    A Honda Civic would blow the doors off a Bavaria. A Daewoo Laganza maybe. With a 0-60 of about 10 seconds, it would be among the slowest 2002 cars made, about even with a Honda Insight electric/gas hybrid. You have to remember you have only about 150HP (170 with the Si) pushing a very heavy car with poor aerodynamics.
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    Thanks for the info concerning the Bavaria. By the way, do you know anything about the Audi 80/90 generation that was made from 1988 to 1995 (and continued as the Cabriolet for a while)? I've heard many awful reliability stories about these small Audis.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I think such rumors are unfounded. At the very worst, their record is the same as Volvo or Saab...which is to say "spotty", not so bad not so great. Buy a nice one, take care of it, and you're okay. The Quattro systems are just about bulletproof, and the 5 cylinders better than the 4s.

    Probably the worst thing you can say about them is that they are very boring to drive.
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    I looked at 0-60 performance times for the '73 Mercedes 220D auto just recently. 30 seconds from 0 to 60, with barely 60 hp! That's probably as good as or worse than a VW Super Beetle of that vintage, although that's not saying much about those German machines. But it is certainly worse than even the lowliest BMW 2002.
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    I know this is straying from the subject somewhat, but what do you guys make of the last U.S.-spec Peugeots sold here, those between '89 and '91? Would those cars be good used car buys these days?
  • ghuletghulet Member Posts: 2,564
    Do you mean the 405 or the last of the 505s? Either way, good luck finding one that still runs, or keeping it on the road without going broke or insane if it does run. Those cars are virtually worthless.
  • magnetophonemagnetophone Member Posts: 605
    jsosasmc, I'll give you another opinion.

    Indeed there are not many Peugeots on the roads anymore, but if they still have a Peugeot listing in the sunday paper here, there have to be more in bigger cities.

    The 505 with the 2.0 and with the diesel were mechanically reliable, very similar in sturdiness and behavior to a Volvo 240. the V6 was another story.

    The 405 and 406 were not as reliable, but the 406 which ended up not having a full product run here, is an amazing car. They worked out the reliability kinks and it went on to be one of Europe's best selling cars.
  • ghuletghulet Member Posts: 2,564
    I don't recall the 406 ever being sold in the U.S. I do remember the 405 receiving pretty good reviews here by magazines when initially offered (particularly the 'sporty' S), though Peugeot's leaving the U.S. market two years later has been scarcely lamented. Perhaps the cars sold in Europe are a different story (I am prepared for response on how wonderful Peugeots are already), but they were unreliable here.

    I think the 505s might be a 'bit' better, if only because they were sold in the U.S. for quite a bit longer. Still, I wouldn't consider one, unless you need unique driveway decoration.

    Peugeots were neither German nor luxury. Discuss.
  • magnetophonemagnetophone Member Posts: 605
    the holy roman empire was neither holy, nor roman, nor an empire.. Discuss!

    Well, we need a place to talk about old European cars.. and this is the closest it gets.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    A Peugeot might be a good "hobby" car but I wouldn't try to drive one everyday in America. All you end up doing is sinking money into a totally worthless car that you'd be lucky to sell for $750.

    At least the German cars retain some resale value, so you can bail out if they become too demanding. And you can easily get parts and service for most older German automobiles.
  • ghuletghulet Member Posts: 2,564
    .......but Linda Richman wouldn't be caught dead in a Peugeot (nor any German car either, for that matter).
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    I have come to this conclusion. Older German cars can be a good buy if you can put up with some niggling items. 1) Most of them will probably have non-functioning AC systems, since the ventilation was weak and not so good. I've seen this problem many times before. 2) The automatic transmissions can break and cause headaches if not properly cared for, especially the ZF units. 3) The stock radios are usually junk. 4) They will rust, even those built in the late 80s.
  • ghuletghulet Member Posts: 2,564
    My mom, on her 88 300E (bought in 91 w/20k miles, still fine now with 310k) has replaced nearly all the a/c parts at least once, the stock Becker Grand Prix cassette went south at least five years ago (replaced with a Sony in-dash CD). She hasn't had any rust issues (other than a fingernail sized spot) and the original transmission is fine (w/310k). I think she's taken good care of the car and been fairly lucky (and most miles were highway).
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    I've never understood why M-B charged $23k in '83 for a car that was slower than a VW Bug (the 240D).
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I think they got away with it because the gas crunch of '79 was still on people's minds. But they obviously knew it was a poblem since the turbo diesel was on the way or maybe had just arrived by then. I have a 300D and it's marginally acceptable for modern traffic, but a 240D is unacceptable.
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    So the 300D is still slow to accelerate from a stop?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    If you step on the gas and KEEP it there, they aren't too bad, no. Probably the only time I sweat in a 300D is if I have an uphill entry ramp on a freeway. Once the car is underway, it moves along pretty good, but it's wound pretty tight at 80 mph.
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    Quite right. Tested an '83 240D about three years ago; even with the pedal to the floor, the worst-accelerating car I ever drove (and it was a manual).
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    The joke is "it couldn't pull the skin off rice pudding".
  • speedshiftspeedshift Member Posts: 1,598
    How would an old VW Rabbit diesel rate in your pantheon of dogs? Would it "smoke" (pardon the pun) a 240D?
  • jrosasmcjrosasmc Member Posts: 1,711
    I once drove my friend's boyfriend's '82 VW Jetta Diesel 5-speed. Believe me, that car took forever to get up to 30 mph, even when flooring and shifting it. I think it was only rated at 52 hp back then.

    Other German "dogs" I've driven: '86 Audi 5000S auto, '85 BMW 528e auto, '87 VW Fox 4-speed.
This discussion has been closed.