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Comments
from the Geneva Auto Show...
So in that sense VW has a lot of room to add considerable quality to a Passat-level car.
It is my understanding that Audi,like BMW,will pursue the overtly sporting driver. Whereas VW and Mercedes go a little in the Lexus direction.
And as VW aparently is also about to market an Accura NSX-type "supercar",the market will be forced to reevaluate its perception of VW. VW is definately on an upward swing,and I think VW will be sucessful.
When Lexus started with the $35,000 LS 400 in 1990,some could only think"a $35,000 Corolla? No way". They did undervalue the LS at first,actually,but soon raised prices when the public realized what the car was. And I think this new VW could go the same way.
This fay-ton looks too be a winner on paper, it's up the VW's U.S. operation to make the car feasable for U.S. buyers. Price, service and standing behind the product is critical. I think this can work if done right. VW can't afford to open another channel though, that surely wouldn't make it. The big question is, why would anyone buy the next A8 when you can get the fewtan (basically the same car) for thousands less. This car is going to hurt Audi first and foremost, possibly Mercedes and BMW for a hot minute. Out of the 10K units planned for the U.S. I see 5000 of those buyers coming directly from Audi, and the rest from MB/Lexus/BMW.
M
I think VW thinks they're in a secure enough position to do this kind of market strategy. It's very much like GM pre-1990, although less blatant. I don't think that the Phaeton will take competition away from Audi as a whole. But if it took away A4 sales as opposed to A8 sales, then you know it's not working.
My point not so much to point out competitors for the Phaeton, as it is to ask is there room for all of these models in this segment. I doubt there is enough growth in the $40K+ segment to support all the new entries. It's great for us consumers, but some automakers are bound to find themselves on the short end of this stick.
Though VW is on a great roll, and the Phaeton may be a great car, this looks like a large, uphill battle for VW to pull off. I hope they're committed for the long haul.
M
I wouldn't hold my breath for a diesel. Many of the best diesels stay on the other side of the pond due to our lower quality fuel. Both MB and BMW have awsome new diesels, you don't see them here though.
I agree with the theory against big buck VWs. They are going to have trouble selling in the $70k range. I think the dealer network is a serious liability. The stand alone VW dealerships I have seen will not attract upscale buyers. If in fact, as someone stated earlier, they are upgrading dealers to be able to handle these products, there is hope. Still, it will take time to woo consumers. Status is a big issue, many are fickle in this catagory, the best car does not always win. Though Lexus proved that a darn good car can easily steal some market share. It will be interesting.
To suggest that there is not room in the market for this car is a little naive. Carmakers are not that foolish. Rest assured there has been copius research done to support the theory of this cars success. I welcome the competition, sure can't hurt.
M
BTW -
There a BMW/Hyundai/Chevrolet dealer in Tinton Falls, NJ. Yes, thats right, Elantras and 5Series within a rock's throw of one another (albeit separate showrooms) There is also an Audi dealership that teams with Kia in Old Bridge. Again, separate showrooms, but same lot !!!!
About this snob issue. I have had several top of the line cars. Most of the folks I run into that own these types of cars buy them because they actually like cars. Thats my excuse anyway. I am a Porsche club member. I have an '86 944T, not exactly a huge monetary investment. I find myself able to move through the pits at our track events and never run into a snob, even if they have 10 times the money into their car. I think there is a bit of a myth out there that the more fortunate look down upon the less fortunate. Some certainly do, but most wealthy people started out poor. There is a higher regard than you may think. I have three Mercedes, a BMW and a Porsche, I do not consider myself any better than you because of what I drive. Besides after buying all these things I'm not so rich anymore!
I personally like the VW on its own merits. I'd even buy a Caddilac if they could put together a world class car. I try to buy the best I can afford, regardless of brand or snob appeal. I think the luxo car market moves this way as well. Witness Lexus' tremendous success. So if VW plays this right they could have a hit, and a whole new market to play to.
I do think this is a strange approach considering Audis comeback. But like I said before, these guys are not amatures, this is a big risk, and as with all risks, it is a calculated one.
Personally, I don't see myself ever paying $70k for any car. Heck my first house was only $75k.
Maybe it is because the "luxury" features don't impress me. I don't mind a luxurious couch in my home, or a great mattress to sleep on but do I really need power leather seats that have 3 massage settings, and a "real" wood dashboard and wood trim inserts in a vehicle I drive 30 miles a day? I am more concerned with function than with form.
Just my $.02
Do not say "never" on these spendy beasts. I used to say that simply because I figured I would never have the money, circumstances and situations change. You would also be amazed how rewarding, sans snobbism, the drive can be.
I can't believe I am insecure and have self-image problems.
I thought I like Audi becuase it is a great car. Off to the Shrink...
There are incorrect stereotypes about every car.. men who drive trucks have endowment issues, people who drive Volvos are granolas and are overly cautious urban liberals, people who drive BMW's are [non-permissible content removed].
Audis are great cars. Kudos to you!
I think it looks better than the fussy new 7-series. Much, much better than the square-looking LS430. A8 is a very handsome car, but also looks conservative (I guess they have to be, being the car of choice for the German government). The S-class, hmm, they're pretty much even...
As for the various market scenarios. Mercedes could be said to be moving down-market with the new hatchback-ish coupe. They are also spinning off the "top of market" brand Maybach because they feel that the Mercedes brand is losing some of its exclusivity. I would say that VW is trying to occupy the same market niche as MB, but with lower prices. Who would buy them? Maybe at first those who don't want the image associated with Mercedes, and then as time goes by it might become a mainstream luxury brand like Lexus, but with its own direction.
http://www.autoextremist.com/page2.shtml#Rant2
M
Dude, where's my Benz?
http://www.msnbc.com/news/721828.asp
Dude, where's my Benz?
http://www.msnbc.com/news/721828.asp
As with the Phaeton, I actually like the name. It sounds upscale. But in the days of letters and numbers, should they really be using a name? No other car in this category has a name: S, 7, A8, LS, and Q. But more importantly than the name is that it is suicide for the company. You don't see Chevrolet building a luxury car on the same platform as the STS and pricing is at the same level. To have two brands who sell the same car at the same price is stupid. No one will buy the Phaeton because the A8 is well established and it will throw all of VW into a slump. Someone needs to give Pieche a shake~ A.R.
M
Read this 2002 Audi S8 Rant:
http://www.thecarplace.com/notes11.htm#01s8
Cash is good...:)
P.S. Have they been hitting you guys with a 150 dealer surcharge on your recent invoices?
Now, if this was Pieche's plan all along, then why did he go to all the trouble to bring the Audi name back from extinction? He could've let the marque die 10 years ago and jsut market VW to all people. The guy is a cracker and should be replaced. He is going to drive the company into the ground, and one of the largest causualties may be Bentley and I DO NOT want to see that marque die~ A.R.
EuroVans...Particulary the *Weekender*...
I don't have an Ad Fee here...The SF Bay Area
Assoc. just went from $75.00 to $150.00...
price for Phaeton should be closer to $70K...
Mark...The difference is that Service under Warranty is graded...That is why the numbers do matter...As a Dealer the Customer that has a problem is more important than the Customer that has come in for Maintenance...figuratively, not literally...And, here comes the numbers problem, Warranty work is scored; so a conflict would arise as to who gets priority...
After reading and rereading Car & Driver, I am having a tough time believing that they got any introduction to the car or what the features and benefits are or how to use them...Steering, ride comfort, etc. these negatives show ignorance of the product rather than problems with the car itself...And a "POTENTATE" Pkg. for the Lexus 430...PULEESE....
Well, why not? You don't think VW is making a car that is worth the kind of money they are asking for it? Do you think you would spend that kind of money and get the reliability of a '93 VW Fox or early 80s model VW? No, I don't think so.
The comment that you wouldn't spend XYZ on VW should certainly extend to other car makers as well. Lots of the "luxury" cars you buy here in America start off as another plebian brand in another country, without mystifying names to cloud their original origins. And by this I am mainly refering to the Japanese marques, although we know other makers, i.e. Jaguar and Audi, among others, that use the platforms and pieces of its lesser corporate siblings. There is no Lexus, Infiniti, or Acura in Japan, per se. The same cars you pay $40,50,60,70K for here are STILL TOYOTAS, NISSANS, and HONDAS in their home market. People there don't mind spending the extra money to get better quality, better materials, and more gadgets. While we, on the other hand, require a luxury name to justify spending money on a very well-made, techonologically advanced automobile. We have to be sure we look the most regal and the Joneses are jealous and then, and only then, can our egos be properly stroked. GOD HIMSELF COME DOWN FROM ON HIGH AND STRIKE US DEAD LEST WE SPEND $60,000 ON A TOYOTA LS430 OR NISSAN Q45.
And since people want to talk of brands and images and prestige factors, remember this: Mercedes' and BMWs are used as taxis all over Europe, parts of South America, and Indonesia (more Bimmers there). Mercedes-Benz also makes tractor trailers that are used to haul such common and base things like toothbrushes, toilet paper and live chickens. These things don't seem to offend people who own an MB car in Europe or elsewhere. They don't feel "the brand is being polluted but consorting with *gulp* riff raff." Volvo, Rover, and many others are in the same boat, so to speak. So, anyone going to stop buying these cars?
Volkswagen has, since the mid-90s, come full circle in the areas of quality control, style, and reliability in its cars. In case you haven't noticed, people and the automobile press rave for the Passat, the Jetta, the Golf and the other models. And in case you haven't been in any of these models, they certainly impart even a more luxurious and solid feel than many of their competitors in their respective segments. Driving a Passat, to me and to others who have been in one, is like driving in an Audi or E-Class or Infiniti. The car is THAT well-made.
Volkswagen AG has stated that they are not trying to directly compete with their own luxury division Audi by making the Phaeton or any future upscale models. They are complementing their lineup. Most VW owners wanted to move on to a different vehicle after the Passat but didn't necessarily make the supposed logical move to an Audi vehicle. It is still not widely known that VW owns Audi. But they have pointed to the fact that Audi will take the luxury sport mantle ahead of VW which will take on a more upscale, luxury air. You want utter speed and handling? Go to Audi. You want more tame, but no less invigorating luxury? Go to Volkswagen.
So, on that note, everyone who is saying you can't spend over $0.35 on a VW, please, get over yourselves. Put away your ridiculous pride and overwrought vanity and look at the Phaeton as a excellent car that can hold its own with all the other so-called "luxury" divisons. From what I have seen on this board, arrogance should have been one of the 7 deadlies.