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Volkswagen Phaeton

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    vwguildvwguild Member Posts: 1,620
    audience for ALL of these new products...W8, Phaeton, and Touareg is the current VW Customer that is maturing chronologically and Financially...Any other converts = Bonus
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    caw103caw103 Member Posts: 63


    I'd bet VW is a success on this basis.

    wishnhigh1,


    we're in complete agreement on this, we just disagree on the size of that segment.
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    jamrock4jamrock4 Member Posts: 53
    "Lets get real. None of my friends who own a BMW 7 series or Mercedes S class would be caught dead in a VW."

    When I made the preceding statement I had no idea it would generate so many passionate responses. I have heard varying opinions on VW's attempt to sell a high end sedan under VW vs. the AUDI brand name and I respect each point of view.

    There are some of you may have incorrectly assumed that anyone who would have no interest in driving a VW branded vehicle is a snob. A snob is someone who feels socially superior others. Are there a lot of snobs driving high end BMW's and MB's? Sure. However there are a lot of snobs driving Toyota, Honda, and even VW branded cars.

    Many of us whether rich or poor are attached to particular brands. For example some people will only buy Coca-Cola when there are generic brands that taste just as good or even better. I have a friend who only buys MB S class sedans not because he is a snob but because he genuinely feels that no other car manufacturer makes a car as solid and safe as a Mercedes Benz.

    Most of the people that I know who are willing to spend in excess of $60K on a car are comfortable with a particular brand name whether it be Jaguar, MB, or BMW. The only way to get them to consider another brand is to give them an option that seems to be equivalent to what they have. I am not aware of anyone who currently owns a high end sedan that would consider a VW branded car to be an equivalent alternative.

    Some of you have mentioned that there are wealthy individuals who have no interest in a luxury brand. That is true. However most of the affluent people I have met who choose not to drive a luxury car actually drive inexpensive American or Japanese cars. Many of those individuals will only purchase used cars, some might actually splurge on a Toyota Camry, but I cannot think of any wealthy person trying to keep a low profile who would consider spending $60K on a VW or any other brand.

    The preceding raises a serious question. If most of the current owners of high end cars are brand conscious and if many of the affluent who refuse to buy luxury cars spend modest amounts on cars, how large is the market segment that would consider buying a VW in excess of $60K?

    I recall that someone was concerned about having to pay more if the Phaeton was sold as an Audi. My response to that is that if Audi dumped the current A8 which is a poor seller and replaced it with the AUDI PHAETON or A12 there would be no need to raise the price. Why? Because if AUDI dumped the A8 then the AUDI PHAETON would not take away sales another AUDI model. In terms of manufacturing cost the only additional cost would be minor cosmsetic changes primarily to change VW to AUDI.
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    wishnhigh1wishnhigh1 Member Posts: 363
    There is already a new A8 in the works right now, which actually looks like an audi(the phaeton doesnt), and will perform like an audi. It will also be priced like an audi.
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    nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,497
    Despite all of this "upper luxury segment" talk, I just want to say that I really like the styling of the Phaeton. The styling is stealthy yet handsome. The general shape reminds me of the previous generation (1995-2001) 7 series and the current A8. The W-12 Phaeton will be the cheapest 12 cylinder car on the market. I wish VW success with the car.

    I have no doubt in my mind though that the Toreg will be a success. If they can make it "fun to drive" like the Jetta, Passat, & GTI models watch out SUVs. My Dad who has been drving SUVs since before they were called SUVs currently drives a 2001 Infiniti QX4. My Sister has a 2000 VR6 Jetta GLS and he LOVES that car. An SUV with the sole of a VW...sign him up!

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

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    andys120andys120 Member Posts: 23,403
    Will there be a W12 version of the new Audi A8?

    I'm guessing there will be. And I imagine it will be stunning and put the 7-Series, S-Class and the Phaeton on the trailer (although it will share a good deal mechanically w the VW).

    2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93

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    wishnhigh1wishnhigh1 Member Posts: 363
    I think VAG is trying to seperate the Audi and VW divisions engine choices. Thats why you dont see a W8 in the Audis, and thats why you dont see the 4.2 V8 in the VWs. The same goes for the V12 offered overseas, and the W12 offered in VWs. VR6 and 2.8 V6 for VW, 3.0 V6 for Audi.

    Currently the only engine that is shared is the 1.8T, which is tuned differently for different brands.
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    greendemongreendemon Member Posts: 3
    I think consumers want cars that are unique on the road. I think that if the Phaeton is a good car with excellent performance and luxury, a strong segment of luxury car buyers will get it, because it looks different and has all-wheel-drive, with Volkswagen PASSAT+ quality. The All-wheen-drive is the kicker. If I had enough money to consider this class of car, I would use the same criteria to decide that I always (try) to use when purchasing: (1) straight-line acceleration (2) price (3) luxury (4) drive-train [I like to shift] (5) Oh, and reliability, I guess. I'd get the Phaeton to be different, and for the joy of the all-wheel-drive.

    greendemon
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    lenscaplenscap Member Posts: 854
    Your top five criteria fail to include customer service/satisfaction. That is a very big component when buying expensive luxury cars, and something VW lacks compared to many other brands.
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    wishnhigh1wishnhigh1 Member Posts: 363
    It is HIS top five criteria, not yours.
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    andys120andys120 Member Posts: 23,403
    that many lux sedan consumers put "straight line acceleration" at the top of their list. If they did Bentley'd be #1.

    2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93

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    greendemongreendemon Member Posts: 3
    I remember when I was on I75 N from just south of Hartsfield Int Airport, about 2 miles from the merging of I78/85, and I saw a Porsche about 1/4 mile behind me already on I75N. (There was sparse evening traffic until the merge - a consistently nice strip of driving after rush hours.) I gradually went to my TOP speed (only to make the Porsche curious - he was already cruising at about 75-80) and he slowly came up behind me, looked at the Sonata nameplate, then I heard that high-pitch resonating whine, a the driver and 1 passenger left me in the dust until the merge when the Posche slowed down. Now...I was going 121 in 5th...and this guy made it seem (for all intent & purpose from a standing start, as he was pacing me) like I was going 5 and he was instantly going 40. They say you will always get used to your car's acceleration and eventually want more, but I have a feeling that with the Phaeton W12, one would be fairly satisfied. Plus, it's all-wheel-drive and luxurious! Until then, I have to be satisfied with enjoying the road in the Hyundai, along with all the other driving enthusiasts of all makes and models. Maybe the true joy of driving is to yearn for more - and to push what you have to the limit.

    With the more sober aspects of ownership, like maintenance, reliability, and customer satisfaction, we all must contend (at least anyone who really drives) so those are points well taken.

    L
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    vwguildvwguild Member Posts: 1,620
    First Drive impressions from JVD can be found over on the Vortex(www.vwvortex.com)
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    nedzelnedzel Member Posts: 787
    "Thats why you dont see a W8 in the Audis, and thats why you dont see the 4.2 V8 in the VWs"

    Well, you will. It's coming in the Touareg.

    J
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    jstylejstyle Member Posts: 129
    I think the Phaeton will be the more conservatively styled of the two models (A8 being the other) I think the A8 might be very daring and forward thinking a la the 745i. I think VW will take more risks with Audi's top model than the VW brand. By the way I saw a Phaeton in Frankfurt when I was going to the airport and all I can say is it looks like a Passat on steriods.
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    ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    I just caught up with this board and almost fell off of my chair reading post 67. It says an LX470 costs $20k more than a TLC. Since I shopped the two and ended up with an LX470 at $15 (not $150 but $15) a month more for an LX470 than the TLC I have to wonder what people are reading or what experience they have. I could have also bought it outright for all of $2,300 more. Plus it has better leather, a quieter smoother ride, air suspension and the cabin drops a few inches if you want when you enter and exit the truck. They also throw in the first couple of service appointments and you get Lexus service to boot.

    Yes a stripped TLC can be had for $12-14k less than an LX470 but there are maybe two or three stripped TLC's in the world. Every TLC that I saw was within a few thousand bucks of the Lexus.
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    bkswardbksward Member Posts: 93
    Well, Edmund's TMV on a 93 XJS is $10,217...

    Granted you may spend another $10k the first year on repairs, but it is still a cheaper way to get a 12 cylinder...
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    torque_rtorque_r Member Posts: 500
    The Phaeton weighs more than 5,000 lb, by far heaviest in class. The W12 might not be any faster than similary priced V8-powered competitors
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    vwguildvwguild Member Posts: 1,620
    Somehow I don't believe that is the point or focus
    of this Product...;)
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    merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Yeah I noticed that too, the car is slightly overweight. Audi will make use of the same platform, but with more aluminum.

    M
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    verozahlverozahl Member Posts: 574
    How often do you see Audi A8's? Not often, right? The Phaeton, if it sells at all, will cut into the A8's already small market share.

    Complete insanity over at VW.
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    vwguildvwguild Member Posts: 1,620
    Please see post #150...
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    frapzoidfrapzoid Member Posts: 127
    We really won't know about the success of this car until it's available here. I remember back in the mid 60's when Toyotas first selling a lot of cars here. My impression was the same as my thoughts concerning cars from Korea in the 90's. Ugly as sin and not very good. Toyotas have come a long way. You can imagine how much I laughed at the thought of Toyota (Lexus)going upscale back in the 90's. They proved they can not only make a quality product but they can compete with BMW and MBZ. They proved that a car company that originally made cheap cars can, in time, make an upscale car that hits the mark. I still think that Japanese cars are ugly though.
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    ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Couldn't agree with you more except that they needed to brand it differently as Toyota did with Lexus. The problem VW has though is that they already have a premium brand in Audi. So whatever their true business strategy is remains confusing. From what I've read they seem to want VW to be a MB fighter (Lexus as well I presume at least in the US) without a branded name to undertake such a herculean task and Audi to be a BMW fighter which in essence it already is. So VW takes on MB and Lexus with a luxury car in a blue collar brand (good luck with competing with Mr.status and legend and Mr reliability who is gaining status fast). The writeoffs will come soon as unfortunately the strategy is incomplete. If they are serious they should do it correctly and with a complete strategy the way Toyota did. This strategy reminds me of Mazda's failed effort (which at least intended to brand their lux cars as Amati if I remember right)except they are doing it with the large car first.
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    AnakinAnakin Member Posts: 410
    Is it me, or is the Edmunds "First Drive" of the Phaeton more like a "First Printing of the PR Blurb?"

    Did they drive the thing? If not, then it shouldn't be called "first drive." :^P

    I'm keeping my eye on this one. I think it's a beautiful car.
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    merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I thought I was the only one that found Edmund's "first drive's" suspect. Some of them I can just tell they haven't driven a thing.

    M
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    vic19vic19 Member Posts: 56
    Whatever happened to the strange arrangement between BMW and VW. Isn't VW about to introduce a Bentley and BMW take over Rolls Royce,

    Does VW expect to sell Bentleys in VW dealerships? It would take a super salesman to switch between a kid who's looking for a Golf and someone looking at a $300,000 car. Not to mention the service department. What do you mean you want a comped loaner?

    VW dealers selling anything over $35,0000 seems nutty.
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    wishnhigh1wishnhigh1 Member Posts: 363
    I disagree with the need for a premium name plate. I say a good car is a good car, regardless of what badge gets put on it. And fortunately for the internet and the exponentially increased demand for consumer information that has taken place over the last few years, I think there are enough affluent and educated individuals who understand this concept, who are willing to buy this car. 6000 units is not a lot. I am willing to bet there are at least 6000 people in the united states that are wealthy enough to afford the Phaeton, and are aducated enough to not buy into the whole badge pride thing.
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    vic19vic19 Member Posts: 56
    It's a sobering thought, but the fact is that Lexus is the only car maker that has established itself as a luxury brand since the 1920's. It's the only new make that sells cars above $50,000 other than MB and BMW which were both prestige makes before the war.

    Toyota introduced the Lexus with it's reputation for rock solid reliabity and established a dealer organization that raised the bar about 10 notches. And fortunately Lexus introduced the LS400 at a time when it's competitors, MB and BMW were at the end of their product cycle.

    I can't understand how VW expects its salesman to deal with both kids and business executives.
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    wishnhigh1wishnhigh1 Member Posts: 363
    That is the only flaw I see in the business plan, the dealership experience. However, people from VW keep assuring me that they have something worked out that will assure us it is a luxury car with luxury service.
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    bscbluebscblue Member Posts: 103
    I posted this a while back but with the "First Drive" of the Phaeton complete and, again, people with more arrogance and money (supposedly) than sense, I think it all bears repeating:

    This thread is actually putting into more tangible form what I have known and said for some time. We as Americans, by and large, are vain and snobbish when it comes to material things. We think that everything that has the "proper name" must be worth more and better in perceived quality than something that doesn't necessarily have the same cache. And in some cases, like with clothes and lawn care products, I would have to agree. But in the particular realm of automobiles, I have to differ wholeheartedly. I have read many of the posts in this thread and a lot of them say, "I would never spend $70,80,90K (or whatever atsronomical figure they can think of) for a VW."

    Well, why not? You don't think VW is making a car that is worth the kind of
    money they are asking for it? Do you think you would spend that kind of money and get the reliability of a '93 VW Fox or early 80s model VW? No, I don't think so.

    The comment that you wouldn't spend XYZ on VW should certainly extend to
    other car makers as well. Lots of the "luxury" cars you buy here in America start off as another plebian brand in another country, without mystifying names to cloud their original origins. And by this I am mainly refering to the Japanese marques, although we know other makers, i.e. Jaguar and Audi, among others, that use the platforms and pieces of its lesser corporate siblings. There is no Lexus, Infiniti, or Acura in Japan, per se. The same cars you pay $40,50,60,70K for here are STILL TOYOTAS, NISSANS, and HONDAS in their home market. People there don't mind spending the extra money to get better quality, better materials, and more gadgets. While we, on the other hand, require a luxury name to justify spending money on a very well-made, techonologically advanced automobile. We have to be sure we look the most regal and the Joneses are jealous and then, and only then, can our egos be properly stroked. GOD HIMSELF COME DOWN FROM ON HIGH AND STRIKE US DEAD LEST WE SPEND $60,000 ON A TOYOTA LS430 OR NISSAN Q45.

    And since people want to talk of brands and images and prestige factors,
    remember this: Mercedes' and BMWs are used as taxis all over Europe, parts of South America, and Indonesia (more Bimmers there). Mercedes-Benz also makes tractor trailers that are used to haul such common and base things like toothbrushes, toilet paper and live chickens. These things don't seem to offend people who own an MB car in Europe or elsewhere. They don't feel "the brand is being polluted but consorting with *gulp* riff raff." Volvo, Rover, and many others are in the same boat, so to speak. So, anyone going to stop buying these cars?

    Volkswagen has, since the mid-90s, come full circle in the areas of quality
    control, style, and reliability in its cars. In case you haven't noticed, people and the automobile press rave for the Passat, the Jetta, the Golf and the other models. And in case you haven't been in any of these models, they certainly impart even a more luxurious and solid feel than many of their competitors in their respective segments. Driving a Passat, to me and to others who have been in one, is like driving in an Audi or E-Class or Infiniti. The car is THAT well-made.

    Volkswagen AG has stated that they are not trying to directly compete with
    their own luxury division Audi by making the Phaeton or any future upscale models. They are complementing their lineup. Most VW owners wanted to move on to a different vehicle after the Passat but didn't necessarily make the supposed logical move to an Audi vehicle. It is still not widely known that VW owns Audi. But they have pointed to the fact that Audi will take the luxury sport mantle ahead of VW which will take on a more upscale, luxury air. You want utter speed and handling? Go to Audi. You want more tame, but no less invigorating luxury? Go to Volkswagen.

    So, on that note, everyone who is saying you can't spend over $0.35 on a VW,
    please, get over yourselves. Put away your ridiculous pride and overwrought vanity and look at the Phaeton as a excellent car that can hold its own with all the other so-called "luxury" divisons. From what I have seen on this board, arrogance should have been one of the 7 deadlies.

    Hats off to Volkswagen. I think they're doing a great thing. And I defy anyone to tell me what are the benefits of buying an MB/BMW/Infiniti/Jaguar. etc over this particular automobile. Oh, and to make this more interesting and intellectually challenging, lets just skip the prestige bullcrap. And the styling thing, get over it. It's not an Aztek . .
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    tulanekid24tulanekid24 Member Posts: 25
    Very well said!
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    ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Wealthier people tend to flock to the highend places - that's just life. I'm sure a handful of wealthy people would choose Walmart over Nordstrom or Saks if it had the type of brands those store stock. But they would be the exception to the rule and not the norm.

    By the way I go wherever I think there are decent values so I understand full well what you are saying and don't think you are wrong to say it. I just don't see it happening but let's see. The car has had a good start in Europe but let's see if it has staying power.

    BTW - it takes Audi 2+ years to sell 6000 A-8's in the US. It takes Lexus about 2 months and MB about 3 to sell that many of the LS430 and S-class cars. Do you think VW will ever get that far?
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    wishnhigh1wishnhigh1 Member Posts: 363
    I think VW upscale has much more capability to sell than the high end Audis.
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    merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    You really think VW can sell more Phaetons than Audi can sell A8s? That will be a mean feat considering.

    Though I've personally never understood why Audi doesn't sell more A8s. I've always believed that if people got past their negative thoughts (some deserved, some not) about Audi and actually drove the A8 they'd like it. I can't tell you how many times I've talked with people about the A8, in the street, at the autoshows, etc and when the prices comes up they almost always say "you may as well get "the" Benz". As much as I love MB I cringe at that statement. In my opinion there isn't a more deserving, underrated luxury car in country. Especially the S8!

    The only thing I could wish for is that VW waited a few more years with the Phaeton so that the A8 would have more momentum built up in this country. The Phaeton has the potential to severly the damage the A8's position in the US market.

    M
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    bscbluebscblue Member Posts: 103
    The A8 and Phaeton are for two different but same customers. The A8 is much more performance oriented, especially in S trim, and it is priced almost 20 grand more than the Phaeton. That doesn't sound like a lot but with the lux tax and depending on the area of country you live, it can be quite a bit of money. People who look to the Phaeton aren't turning their eyes from an A8. The A8 is just one of those wallflower cars. Once you've enjoyed one you remember it as a good car; most people just don't think past certain trendy automobiles. They only see what will make them look the most "upscale."

    And I assure you, ljflx, that people with money don't automatically flock to what is "high end" and look for ways to show off how much moneyt hey have. If that was the case, I wouldn't see my mom at Wal-Mart every other week. I also wouldn't be seeing Winona Ryder stealing from Saks Fifth Avenue after making millions in films.
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    ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Depends on how you made the money. People who inherited money are different then people who earned it on their own, at least from what I've seen. My boss has enough money to buy an island but he's still got a lot of blue collar in him and wouldn't hesitate to shop at Walmart or eat at a Nathan's. But don't expect to see a Kennedy in either place.

    Winona lost almost all of her money, unfortunately.
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    wishnhigh1wishnhigh1 Member Posts: 363
    Oh trust me, I would rather have an A8 too...and I think it is one hell of a car, especially compared to the competition. It IS the most under-rated lux car in the class.

    However, I think that the Phaeton has potential to sell because it is breaking into niche markets...and it gives you a world class luxury car for a not so world class price.
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    vwguildvwguild Member Posts: 1,620
    Phaeton...W8...Touareg...are being developed and
    produced for existing Volkswagen Customers...
    Consider any converts the icing on the cake!!!
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    verozahlverozahl Member Posts: 574
    ... und so. Jawohl.

    I'm sure there's a reason why the LS430, 3.5RL, and Q45 aren't called "Toyota Celsior" and "Honda Legend" and "Nissan Cima" here in this market. Somehow, VW's ego-driven leadership said "these cars need to have the same names in all markets," so Phaeton and Touareg will be coming here with these wacko names. Wacko names for wacko ideas, such as cutting into one's own luxdivision, as merc1 pointed out.

    Depends where you are... Rochester Hills has Fox Chevrolet-Toyota-Volkswagen (wanna buy a Phaeton here?) and a new, brand-spankin-new Audi dealer in the other side of town. Ann Arbor's Howard Cooper does Honda, Volkswagen-Audi, and Porsche, so you'll be in the same showroom looking at Phaetons and A8s and wondering "what the heck?!"... yep. Audi simply doesn't have the presence here in North America to suffer its own "friendly fire" from Volkswagen, even though VW says "VW will be lux and Audi will be sport" which makes zero sense. Audi should be luxosport and VWs should be low-cost and sporty. And they shouldn't be throwing themselves at the same guy at the same time.
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    vwguildvwguild Member Posts: 1,620
    see the Phaeton on any shared Showroom Floor, or
    any facility that is not stand alone Volkswagen MarketPlace.
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    merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I hope so, we'll see. I keep thinking about a used A8..

    vwguild,

    Really? I've been waiting on someone with VW knowledge to say something about that. So you're saying all the VW dealers around here that are teamed with Hyundai, Nissan and Mazda stores are not going to sell the Phaeton? If that is the plan the Phaeton is going to have a hard time here (Chicagoland) because there are only about 3 stand alone VW franchises here. Sound strategy if VW had already made the changes to their dealers, but they haven't and I don't see any new construction going on at any of the "teamed" franchises.

    M
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    vic19vic19 Member Posts: 56
    VW was forced into "teamed" dealership becuase of all the lean years of the 70's and 80's. VW has enough trouble staking about a distinctive character now. How do they expect to sell Sentras and $80,000 cars in the same showroom. Service will be an extremely tricky problem, too.
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    bscbluebscblue Member Posts: 103
    Verozahl, can you explain to me why Touraeg and Phaeton are "wacko" names? And also explain to me why Cima, Celsior, and Legend are wacko too. I don't get it. I must be missing the point. But giving cars names based on just numbers is much cooler or less "ego-driven?" A car should have a name. DeVille, Camaro, Daytona, Murcielago, Azure and things like that.

    I happen to think cars without a name are kinda gimicky. That's what the Japanese were doing. They were going after the European lux cars in the 80s and 90s and decided that alphanumeric names impart some sense of intangible luxury in the American market.

    But I think it is good that the only thing you and people who susbcribe to your same opinions can think to complain about is price and names.

    I believe the only person who could enjoy a name like SL600 or 745iL is John Nash.
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    vwguildvwguild Member Posts: 1,620
    planning on selling 5000 units a year, at least
    for now...3 Dealers in Chitown is all we need....
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    merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Ok so that is indeed the plan huh? This is going to be very interesting.

    M
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    vwguildvwguild Member Posts: 1,620
    Probably going to be the same for the Touareg, not
    volume, but Dealers...And there will probably be a short list for the New Beetle Cabrio as well...
    And did I mention Sports Package W8s?
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    verozahlverozahl Member Posts: 574
    Never said I'm a big alphanumerico-naming fan. Nissan uses clouds and meteorology for all their car names (in JDM market), which is pretty dang cool.

    bscblue, fact that you slipped spelling "Touareg" seems to argue for my point.

    It's not that I think VW is incapable of selling quality expensive cars... it's that they have Audi for that purpose. Put the dang money into Audi A8 successor!

    Like I said, we have "Herr Wacko aus Wolfsburg" coming in and trying to explain this to Americans... aintgonnahappen.com (I must credit autoextremist.com for this)! VW is going too far uptown with their marque, and it's preventing them from selling affordable cars (Jetta is overpriced... excellent build quality, but überkostet... too expensive!) and the dubiousness of trying to move the brand Uptown in this economy is pure folly.

    I foresee a mess for Volkswagen on this. Not because anything is wrong with the Phaeton, but because something is wrong with Volkswagen itself in terms of marketing.
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    merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Now please tell me about the Passat W8's with the sport package. That car is on my short list, once I see what happens here at work. When does it arrive? Are they going to keep it under 40K?

    On a different note, I've seen Passat W8s at every VW dealer, is that going to change?

    M
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    regfootballregfootball Member Posts: 2,166
    we are all one step closer to a 38k Hyundai "s-class killer".

    It'll have all the toys and a 20 cylinder motor. It'll be 220 inches long and more options than Nebraska football.

    Funny thing, it'll still have that petro chemical Hyundai smell.

    Phaeton is a nice car but interior styling is not the least bit sporty and reminds me of 70's GM cars.

    Bottom line here.....would you buy a Phaeton of a loaded E class or M5?

    That's the real issue...when it comes to parting with the pig, will you actually buy a VW?
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