Phaetons will arrive at 200 out of 600~ Dealers in early/mid November...2 per Dealer...1/V8 and 1/W12
Only Phaeton Specialists will deal with Phaeton Customers, or for an existing Customer/Sales relationship will act as the coordinator for the order and delivery process.
Phaetons will be custom built...no on the ground inventory with the exception of 2 Drive Experience autos and Service Replacements...If Service is required these will be driven to the customer and left with them until Service is completed.
Price range $60-$80/$85K...Delivery 75-90 days...Estimated Volume 5000~annually...
Phaeton Dealers are attending, this month, meetings either at the Dupont Hotel in Wilmington, Delaware or at the Four Seasons in San Diego...I will be going to San Diego a week from today...I will see what I can find out for you...
The Phaeton has already flunked the market in Germany, where sales have been well below VW's goals. And that's in their home market, where VW has a better brand image than they have in the US. I believe the Phaeton will fail in the US market, if it even gets here. I will be surprised if it ever goes on sale in the US. I expect VW to pull it.
I've seen reports from a web auto journalist that VW is cancelling the Phaeton, but haven't seen anything to back that up yet.
I agree wholeheartedly with Merc1. Why pay $40K for an American SUV that's GUARANTEED to be UNRELIABLE, UNREFINED and just downright cheesy?
Even if the Touareg's reliability ends up being bad - it can't possibly be worse than GM/Ford/Chrysler (the non-American automaker) reliability, right? And for the same price, you can really take the car off-road AND not have to put up with the truck-like handling, or laughable interior fit and finish found in all American cars.
I think Piech was right to get VW into the SUV market - the Touareg is a great product that IMHO is missing in this market.
As for going upscale with "Budget" luxury cars, I think it is only a natural extension of the Passat. A Passat GLX alone has all the amenities of a luxury car (memory power seats, leather, etc. etc.), at a price below the $30K barrier.
I think Piech's logic is that VW will always be a "People's car" company - it just serves a broader spectrum. The Phaeton is aimed at those who that want luxury, but are unconcerned with the badge on the car, and are unwilling to pay for it.
Whether that part of his vision is correct, only time will tell...
The Phaeton at $61,000 when compared with offerings in CONTENT from BMW, Mercedes and even Audi will succeed. Those that won't or possibly can't pay $80K for similar contented European cars may find the Phaeton an alternative that, in the long run, justifies their faith in the brand and is justified by the brand's treatment of its customers.
VWGUILD has at least once detailed some of the differentiators that the Phaeton will have going for it when it reaches our soil.
Initial test reports in the Euopean press were generally favorable -- but it should be noted there have been some quality issues, which I suspect should be corrected by the time the ones minted for US consumption arrive.
The way the customers are treated will go miles and miles in negating some bumpy start issues that may happen.
The constant bashing of VW for making forward and upward moves is sometimes confusing -- is it that we "want" VW to succeed but are convinced that it won't?
I will be in the market in the year 2004, based on my prior experience I will order a new car in calendar 04 -- and if not then certainly in early 05 -- the Phaeton and the Passat and the Passat Plus will be on my shopping list (and full disclosure so will several Audi models).
The Phaeton, compared with my then new 1997 A8 looks like "a hell of a deal!"
And, although I did enjoy my A8, it did have its many service issues (but they were all covered by the Audi advantage and I would still commend one of them to your attention should you be looking for that class automobile).
As you know I'm a fan of VW (actually their whole empire) too, and I'd be cheering them on without any reservations if it weren't for the fact that a big-buck VW is going to compete with Audi. Audi doesn't need the competition, especially in-house, and using their same platforms. I can't believe that they now want to do a VW version of the next A6, even after the Phaeton didn't sell in the Fatherland! VW can point to their research all they want, saying that people don't cross-shop Audis and VWs, but they've got to know that it will happen more often than not with cars this expensive.
I agree the Phaeton will be a bargain compared to a S-Class, 7-Series, but also compared to, you guessed it....the Audi A8. Same engine, room, features for below 60K, which is what VW is shooting for with the V8 Phaeton. Thats going to make the 68K+ A8L look a little overpriced. Though I guess some won't think twice about this price difference considering how much nicer the newer Audi dealers are when it comes to service etc, compared to your average VW dealer.
Where the Phaeton's value will be undeniable is in the W12 model. For about 80K (est) it will be 30-40K less than a S600 or 760Li. Even though the S600 will easily outperform the W12 Phaeton (the S600 is ligher and has a significant power advantage), the big VW will still offer a 12-cylinder engine for much less, but this buyer/target is much harder to get. I can't recall the 760Li's stats at the moment, but I think it has a slight hp advantage too. Not sure if it's way faster than the Phaeton like the S600 is.
One interesting scenario that will no doubt play out at some joined VW-Audi franchise, the A8 and the Phaeton will be in the same showroom or at least a few feet away in another section of the same dealership. What to do then? I guess this could be seen as an advantage since the buyer would be able to drive both back to back. Another good question...does Audi plan on selling their W12 version of the A8 here? I see another conflict.
I can't wait to see the first full month sales total for the uber-VW.
I saw a dark colored Phaeton driving around DC about a month and a half ago at rush hour. It had a Michigan license plate, and people headed for the metro were falling all over themselves to get a look at it and figure out what it was. It created quite a stir, and I thought that it looked really good.
I think that they are going to sell plenty of these in the DC area.
Here are a few problems that I see with this car line:
Service – I own an Acura TL and a VW Jetta 1.8, Acura’s service is unbelievable VW’s is poor. Even out of warranty the Acura dealership covered the repairs on my car without even having me to ask for it. At the VW my key fob stopped working and needed a battery change that required a service tech to complete!!!??? I was told that I had gone beyond the 12k warranty and that it would be subjected to $45/hr to replace the battery. I argued and they comped my repair. Thanks a lot VW!!! Is this the same level of service that is going to be offered to the owners of the Phaeton?
Cross brand shopping – I bought the Jetta 1.8 over the Audi A4 because you can’t get leather in the A4 unless you get the 3.0 engine. AND by going with the VW I got 10 more horsepower Go figure.
Passat W8 – When this car came out I was shopping for my Audi A4/VW Jetta. My wife and I were interested in the W8 wagon. We went to a VW dealer and asked to test drive the car and was told “Sorry, there are too few of these cars to allow them to be driven” I politely thanked them and stated that I could go down the road and test drive a 60K BMW or Mercedes but I can’t drive a 40k VW? I went to leave and the manager stopped me and let me drive the car. Needless to say I had no intention to buy the car at that point.
I did get an invitation to participate in the “Phaeton Experience”, which allows “A select 50 people in your area” (My subdivision?) to drive the Phaeton in advance of its release.
They did not provide any pricing information
Here is an excerpt from their site:
Welcome, You're getting closer to taking our Phaeton™ for a spin. So we figure now is a good time to share some more details and let you choose which city and date work best for you.
Basically, our test-drive program was designed to give you the total Phaeton experience in a way that's most convenient for you. You'll take your test drive at one of the participating W Hotels® near you, so you're right in the thick of all the action. Let's start. To reserve your spot, you'll need to choose the city where you'd like to experience the Phaeton.
Next, pick a date between October 20, 2003 and February 8, 2004 that's most convenient for you. Just in case we're unable to schedule your first choice, pick a second and third date that will also work for you. Then tell us how long you would like the keys to the Phaeton - up to 24 hours - and if you'll need accommodations at W Hotels.
You will be assigned your very own Phaeton Manager, who will make sure that any needs you have regarding your Phaeton Experience are met. He or she will contact you, using the information you provide below, to confirm and finalize details and explain how to reserve a hotel room at a special Phaeton rate, if you like.
"My wife and I were interested in the W8 wagon. We went to a VW dealer and asked to test drive the car and was told “Sorry, there are too few of these cars to allow them to be driven” I politely thanked them and stated that I could go down the road and test drive a 60K BMW or Mercedes but I can’t drive a 40k VW? I went to leave and the manager stopped me and let me drive the car. Needless to say I had no intention to buy the car at that point."
I have yet to figure out where salesmen get this bs reasoning from. I had the same thing happen when I first tried to test drive a Nissan 350Z. They guy told me the exact same thing and I told him that I had driven an Audi A6 4.2 earlier that day and he replied "you must have had to sign a release". I wanted to say you moron...but I just told him what actually happened. The Audi guy took a copy of my drivers license and stuck a dealer plate on the A6 and said "have fun" and "bring it back in one piece". He couldn't believe that and just stood there, mouth open. I told him good day. Months later another Nissan saleman called (from another dealer that told me basically the same thing as the first one did), saying "we have plenty of cars in stock now so you can drive one"...I told him "no-thanks". I swear you could hear a rat relieve himself on cotton after that.....so deep the silence was. What goes around comes around at the VW dealer because the W8 has been anything but a seller. The 350Z on the other hand is still somewhat hot, oh well.
Anyway...I just had to get that out. VW is promising that Phaeton customers will get better treatment, but this is going to be extremely tricky with a Jetta owner like yourself getting the shaft with the Phaeton guy standing at the same service counter gets the royal treatment. They better have some security on the grounds also. I still think the only way this whole upmarket push is going to work is for the ENTIRE VW dealer group to be revamped, including the termination of the dealers who don't want to get their act together.
Let us know what you think of the car after you drive it.
...continuation of the canned Phaeton discussion, finally!
As I said before, the Phaeton, as opposed to VW marketing's press releases, is a flop in Germany. Of a planned first-year sales of 14,000 units, only 7,800 were "sold", and nobody can tell whether they have been registered by actual owners or dealers.
Putting up short films on the web seems to have become a new trend, but it's not going to sell a car, which occupies space in an environment completely new for VW. Its own line of fine China (!) is not going to cut it,
other measures must be taken, and certainly so in the US.
Regarding pricing, I am stunned by the expected range mentioned by VWguild. On VW's German site, these are the current base prices for the four-seater versions:
Note that the V8 and "W12" (if I ever get my hands on the one who mis-nomered that thing) are only available with AWD. Note also that VW canned its own "W8" contraption (think Passat) in favor of AUDI's V8, which now propells the Phaeton...
I went ahead and specified a V8 model with options I deem adequate for this class (sorry for the visual, but this board's SW cannot handle spaces or proper line-ups):
Phaeton 4-seater 4.2 V8___84.150,00 EUR Metallic paint (silver)____1.020,00 EUR Leather interior___________1.020,00 EUR Wheels 18x7.5 w/235/50-18__1.530,00 EUR Audio system w/DSP_________1.020,00 EUR Navigationssystem__________2.530,00 EUR Anti-theft___________________510,00 EUR Double-xenon lamps___________410,00 EUR Home link____________________200,00 EUR Wood appliquees______________340,00 EUR Multi functions st. wheel____580,00 EUR Fog lights___________________200,00 EUR Park distance control________750,00 EUR Sunroof____________________1.320,00 EUR "Keyless Access" system____1.170,00 EUR Servo close for trunk lid____780,00 EUR Sun shades rear & side wind._660,00 EUR Total_____________________98.190,00 EUR
At today's exchange rate of 1.165, this translates to a whopping $114,000! Remember, this is the "lowly" V8, and not the highly anticipated power house.
Unless VW is out to immediately corner the US market with a street price of $80,000 for this very car (which they can't without losing credibility), there's someting I don't see.
The dealership structures, VAT and other factors make the Euro prices very different from the American prices.
To begin with, competition in Europe among dealerships is very minimal - since they are a lot less of them, and they are tightly controlled by the auto-industry. Most dealerships only sell one brand too, versus the ones in the US.
Secondly, SOME (not all) European countries have higher taxes that are tacked onto the cars than just VAT. One country (which I shall not name) taxes cars at 95% - and that's just the "Normal" tax! "Luxury" cars are taxed at a whopping 150%! (airbags = luxury, BTW).
Prices vary greatly from one European country to the next, even within the EU, beleive it or not. So I'm not too surprised that the Pheaton came out to a jaw-dropping $114K! Better start saving!
With regards to the level of customer service in the dealerships, I noticed that the one we went to had a very inconsistent level too. One day, you'd get cursed with the rudest, arrogant pig of a salesman - only to get a really knowledgeable and helpful person the very next day!
VW's got a lot of dealer fixing to do if they expect people to shell out lotsa $$ for a Phaeton! This is rather sad, because some dealerships are really good, but a lot are just horrid!
To begin with, competition in Europe among dealerships is very minimal - since they are a lot less of them, and they are tightly controlled by the auto-industry.
Had the comparison been made to Sweden or Italy, who assess horrendous taxes on luxury goods (in Italy, even the six-speed gearboxes used to cause higher tax levies), you had been right, but since I am only talking about Germany, the above statement is flawed. Even though there are surely not as many VW dealers in Germany as are Chevy (s)tealers in the US, I count about 20 or so dealers within a 30-mile radius of my hometown (population of ~110,000) alone. And the tight control is gone, too, as new laws severely limit the Mfg's influence on individual dealerships.
Prices vary greatly from one European country to the next, even within the EU, beleive it or not.
That might apply to the out-the-door cost, but net prices have been harmonized in order to avoid cross-shopping neighboring countries. Germany, i.e., applies a VAT of 16% to most goods, and this tax is included in above calculation. I challenge you to go and compare prices of similar BMWs, AUDIs and Mercedes in the US and in Germany. The maximum difference you'll find will be 10% - in favor of the US (cheaper).
That's why I'm saying I'd be very curious to find out about VW's approach to the US market. If they maintain the same ratio between here and there as the competition (and VW isn't exactly a charitable organization), their MSRP is going to be an initial killer for the car. If they try to position themselves among the luxo-competitors by undercutting everyone by 25%, they will be about as successful as Lada, I guess...
Remember that the new law does not take effect yet, and even the EU parliament expects it to take some time to filter through. I beleive it is the first of a series of adjustments the EU plans to enforce on the automakers in order to make them more competitive, and ultimately lower the price of a new vehicle.
I've read articles at Auto.com noting that there are still price differentials between EU countries - so I really can't say if it really exists. All I know is that pricing in Britain is different from many EU countries.
US pricing will undoubtedly fluctuate - due to the Euro/Dollar conversion costs. In general, I have noticed that they are cheaper in the US by a little bit. Maybe it is the import tax structure, maybe it's because of the competition - I don't know. But I'm darned glad that it is cheaper here than over there!!!
should be within a range of $60-$80K...Attending a Phaeton Managers Meeting at the Four Seasons in San Diego on Tuesday & Wednesday...We will get firm numbers there...
British pricing is a bit like Alaskan and Hawaiian sticker - alternative sources are rare, evenmoreso since there's no other European country that needs the steering wheel on the "wrong side" of the car.
Pheaton pricing is going to be an interesting issue, because right now we don't even know which engine they'd put in the car for $60-$80k. Is VW even bringing the 6cyl FWD models over here? Doesn't ring right with the luxo-market, just as the competition doesn't offer their small engine varieties that are common in Europe.
will get two engine options here...4.2L V8(335HP) and the 6.0L W12(420HP)...And, as with the Touareg, we may see the V10 Twin Turbo Diesel Q4 2004 as a 2005MY car.
Are the pricing specs just speculation, or are you suggesting a price of roughly $60k for the V8, and ~$80k for the 12-cyl? Or a range of $60k to $80k for different option levels (LWB/SWB) of the, let's say, V8 model?
I will be getting more pricing specifics this week at The Phaeton Triad Meeting in San Diego, but basically ~$62K for the V8 and option up, and ~$80K for the W12/4 Seat Config. with all options including custom chroma flair paints...
Experience...Just returned from the Four Seasons in San Diego and the Phaeton Triad Meetings...This is one very well done automobile...Fit & Finish, Ergonomics, Power & Performance all superb...
My biggest question / concern relates to marketing and support for this vehicle. I purchased a W8 - one of the first 2 delivered by my dealer. The car is much as I expected. The marketing support for the W8 has been virtually non-existant. I expect to pay the price in increased depreciation when I dispose of the car. Comments? Thanks!
Just curious . . . - Ray Enjoying the car - dreading the anticipated depreciation . . .
In all candor, I have no idea why VWAG/VWOA orphaned the W8. This automobile is the least expensive 8 Cylinder/All Wheel Drive available in the US...5 Speed Tip & 6 Speed Manual...What a great car!!!! It's original mission was to be a bridge between the norm and the next level...But for reasons unknown, it received only a brief print campaign and that very, very lame commercial. In any event, you own a great ride and if I owned one; I would drive it until the 12th of never and then pass it on to a family member.
The Phaeton, however; is a breed apart. The Glass Factory is a 130 Million Euro investment alone...And an emotional one as well...one of great magnitude. And, it shows in the car.
No detail has been overlooked...Everything has been done perfectly. The W12 engine has probably won more races world wide than any other...it powers our Bugatti and, of course, others in the stable as well. The Leather is glove soft, ergonomics are perfect & simple, the 4MO/Quattro All Wheel Drive System speaks for itself as being the best in the world. And, although at first I questioned the obvious similarity to the Passat, I remembered that no one at VWAG wants anyone to think that this anything but a VW...only bigger, better, and one helluva lot faster...:)
I agree it's a fine car, but this "The W12 engine has probably won more races world wide than any other" is a little bit much. Besides that, the Phaeton W12 is still going to be outran and outhandled by the Mercedes S600 and BMW 760Li, both of which have less weight and more power. That said I still can't wait to see this car. Any word on which dealers in Chicagoland are going to carry the uber-Veedub?
If thats going to be the attitude behind the Phaeton, it's going to have a tough time making it here. It was supposed to match those cars for less $$, not highlight their superiority.
I was really only referring to the S600 which turns out 493HP/590lb-ft.Torque...The 760Li which is rated at 438HP/444lb.-ft.Torque seems to close to really measure v. the W12s 420HP/406lb.ft...
And, there is a great deal more involved here than endowment issues...Fit & Finish, Ergonomics, simplicity of controls, space...Leg Room/Head Room, and All Wheel Drive, Warranty, to mention just a few, meet & exceed the others...
I agree that the stats show the Phaeton W12 to be close to the BMW 760Li, but it dosen't compare in the with the S600. The S600 will dust a Phaeton quite easily and the BMW is also faster by about a second. However, I also agree on the VW's other virtues, but I'm sort of disappointed that it's so overweight, thus blunting the potential of the W12 version. If it needs 5.9 secs to make it 60mph, the V8 model promises to be a lot slower and also behind the class.
I only see the Phaeton "exceeding" it's V12 rivals in ease of controls (BMW) and fit and finish (Mercedes), and of course it has awd. I guess what I'm getting at is that I don't see enough of an advantage against those two cars, except for price and awd That will be the deciding factor because overall the Phaeton W12 at least, isn't beating those two car, it's only competitive. I thought the goal was to build a better car for less no?
I really doubt that VW was seriously attempting at competing with either of these two cars; however, I believe that they were aiming at the S500 and the 745.
I don't see how they are going to overcome their image and service issues. Someone dolling out that kind of money is not going to accept the same service that VW has been providing.
Just look at the W8. I would bet that 98% of the population wouldn't know what you were talking about.
vwguild, you must be a VW salesperson... If so you of all people should know that image is EVERYTHING!
Personally I think VW should have dropped the W12 in the Audi A8 and how about dropping the W16 in the S8. Now that would have had people really talking!!!
Merc...I have serious doubts regarding your emphasis on things such as 0-60 times for the target customer...A Gentleman between 50-55...My age...Go back and reread "ENDOWMENT" that is a double entendre...
Don...Image is EVERTHING if you are Brit Spears or Madonna...For the rest of us Performance & Value are everything....
yeah their great and all but they are VW's. Didn't VW make like Rabbits and those crappy little pickups? They sell all those Jettas and Golfs and Beetles.
point being....VW will never be thought of as upscale enmasse so that someone will blow 40g on a PAssat. The Touareg has the SUV exception. Why would you buy a VW when you could a real upscale car?
...so much that the Phaeton is a slouch, BMW and particularly MB have raised the performance bar significantly. I predict that the "W12" will be just as short-lived as the "W8", since the space savings of these engines does not warrant a whole new (and difficult to service) philosophy. Since those power plants do neither offer better fuel economy nor higher performance than their competitors, the "W12"'s 24-hour records in Nardo are just propaganda material to me.
You know, if VW quit wanting to put themselves on one level with the leading competitors, the whole thing would make sense, but the VW-driven incredible buzz re the Phaeton and its position in the market are a high pedestal to fall from. Piech's legacy's fallout, I guess...
As usual, only time will tell, and more of the fog will clear up once the official announcement of the car's price. Remember, a fully equipped "W12" stickers for about EURO 115k-120k in Germany.
Do you really believe that people buy BMW's, Audi’s and MB's because of their value?
People buy expensive items to show how important and wealthy they are, or in some cases, how they wish everyone else to perceive them as. This has been represented in every culture since man created civilization. It's all about the image of power and wealth.
Furthermore, the market VW is looking to sell to would, in my honest opinion, be willing to either spend more to get the bigger name and the greater performance or get less performance with the bigger name for the same cost.
I think the likely market is somewhere 35-45 males with a household income of 150-200k. That’s not to say that VW will not find a niche, I just feel it’s unlikely that those in the range you mentioned previously will actually be drawn to the vehicle.
Final note, all new vehicles depreciate, which only leaves an illusion of value.
that people buy BMWs, Audis, and MBZ because of their value? I am sure that most do. In my experience, when 'image' is placed above value, performance, or quality...one is dealing with the nouveau riche or near do well. Do SOME people buy those brands because of image? Of course. But that type of person would not be attracted to ANY VW.
The primary reason for my dedication to the Brand, is the customer that I serve. Like the "VW Promise", they are different, original, honest, friendly and approachable.
This car, and the Touareg, are about two things. The first is to make VWAG/VWOA a complete car company. MBZ and BMW have been creating less expensive products to reach a broader customer base...Younger and with smaller incomes. We are doing the same thing, but in reverse.
As the "Baby Boomer" VW Customer has matured both financially and chronologically, they have been forced to leave the Brand in order to acquire a fine luxury automobile...The Phaeton provides these customers with another option.
If we were doing nothing more than selling image; we would have put the Bentley GT nose on the Phaeton. But we want no one to mistake this automobile. This is a Volkswagen. The finest VW ever built...With a world class powerplant, the "Best All Wheel Drive System in the world" according to AUTOWEEK, fit & finish beyond reproach, glove soft leathers and beautiful woods, a simplicity of design and ergonomic environment that embraces the driver and puts a smile on the face. Not to mention, an exhaust note that will raise the pulse...
has that line in the Audi. It's creating competition to it own brand.
Now you could look at this from a different perspective in that VWAG is looking to dilute the market. That may work to it's own advantage or it may not.
"...that people buy BMWs, Audis, and MBZ because of their value? I am sure that most do. In my experience, when 'image' is placed above value, performance, or quality...one is dealing with the nouveau riche or near do well. Do SOME people buy those brands because of image? Of course. But that type of person would not be attracted to ANY VW."
I would disagree with you on two points. First, I think most people do buy BMWs and MBs because of image. Take BMW for instance. I believe there is a small percentage of BMW customers, perhaps 25%, that really values a driver's car like BMW offers. They could care less about the emblem. The other 75% are in it for the image plain and simple. Heck, my cousin wants a BMW because it's cool, yet she knows nothing about the performance of the car. I think she is very typical.
Second, there are people who buy VWs because of image. Many Passat buyers I would think are looking for the anti-Accord or anti-Camry and use the VW to express this. I feel many people conscious of brand image DO buy VWs.
Comments
in early/mid November...2 per Dealer...1/V8 and 1/W12
Only Phaeton Specialists will deal with Phaeton Customers, or for an existing Customer/Sales relationship will act as the coordinator for the order and delivery process.
Phaetons will be custom built...no on the ground
inventory with the exception of 2 Drive Experience
autos and Service Replacements...If Service is required these will be driven to the customer and left with them until Service is completed.
Price range $60-$80/$85K...Delivery 75-90 days...Estimated Volume 5000~annually...
Questions?
M
I've seen reports from a web auto journalist that VW is cancelling the Phaeton, but haven't seen anything to back that up yet.
Even if the Touareg's reliability ends up being bad - it can't possibly be worse than GM/Ford/Chrysler (the non-American automaker) reliability, right? And for the same price, you can really take the car off-road AND not have to put up with the truck-like handling, or laughable interior fit and finish found in all American cars.
I think Piech was right to get VW into the SUV market - the Touareg is a great product that IMHO is missing in this market.
As for going upscale with "Budget" luxury cars, I think it is only a natural extension of the Passat. A Passat GLX alone has all the amenities of a luxury car (memory power seats, leather, etc. etc.), at a price below the $30K barrier.
I think Piech's logic is that VW will always be a "People's car" company - it just serves a broader spectrum. The Phaeton is aimed at those who that want luxury, but are unconcerned with the badge on the car, and are unwilling to pay for it.
Whether that part of his vision is correct, only time will tell...
VWGUILD has at least once detailed some of the differentiators that the Phaeton will have going for it when it reaches our soil.
Initial test reports in the Euopean press were generally favorable -- but it should be noted there have been some quality issues, which I suspect should be corrected by the time the ones minted for US consumption arrive.
The way the customers are treated will go miles and miles in negating some bumpy start issues that may happen.
The constant bashing of VW for making forward and upward moves is sometimes confusing -- is it that we "want" VW to succeed but are convinced that it won't?
I will be in the market in the year 2004, based on my prior experience I will order a new car in calendar 04 -- and if not then certainly in early 05 -- the Phaeton and the Passat and the Passat Plus will be on my shopping list (and full disclosure so will several Audi models).
The Phaeton, compared with my then new 1997 A8 looks like "a hell of a deal!"
And, although I did enjoy my A8, it did have its many service issues (but they were all covered by the Audi advantage and I would still commend one of them to your attention should you be looking for that class automobile).
I continue to cheer them --VW -- on!
I agree the Phaeton will be a bargain compared to a S-Class, 7-Series, but also compared to, you guessed it....the Audi A8. Same engine, room, features for below 60K, which is what VW is shooting for with the V8 Phaeton. Thats going to make the 68K+ A8L look a little overpriced. Though I guess some won't think twice about this price difference considering how much nicer the newer Audi dealers are when it comes to service etc, compared to your average VW dealer.
Where the Phaeton's value will be undeniable is in the W12 model. For about 80K (est) it will be 30-40K less than a S600 or 760Li. Even though the S600 will easily outperform the W12 Phaeton (the S600 is ligher and has a significant power advantage), the big VW will still offer a 12-cylinder engine for much less, but this buyer/target is much harder to get. I can't recall the 760Li's stats at the moment, but I think it has a slight hp advantage too. Not sure if it's way faster than the Phaeton like the S600 is.
One interesting scenario that will no doubt play out at some joined VW-Audi franchise, the A8 and the Phaeton will be in the same showroom or at least a few feet away in another section of the same dealership. What to do then? I guess this could be seen as an advantage since the buyer would be able to drive both back to back. Another good question...does Audi plan on selling their W12 version of the A8 here? I see another conflict.
I can't wait to see the first full month sales total for the uber-VW.
M
I think that they are going to sell plenty of these in the DC area.
Service – I own an Acura TL and a VW Jetta 1.8, Acura’s service is unbelievable VW’s is poor. Even out of warranty the Acura dealership covered the repairs on my car without even having me to ask for it. At the VW my key fob stopped working and needed a battery change that required a service tech to complete!!!??? I was told that I had gone beyond the 12k warranty and that it would be subjected to $45/hr to replace the battery. I argued and they comped my repair. Thanks a lot VW!!! Is this the same level of service that is going to be offered to the owners of the Phaeton?
Cross brand shopping – I bought the Jetta 1.8 over the Audi A4 because you can’t get leather in the A4 unless you get the 3.0 engine. AND by going with the VW I got 10 more horsepower Go figure.
Passat W8 – When this car came out I was shopping for my Audi A4/VW Jetta. My wife and I were interested in the W8 wagon. We went to a VW dealer and asked to test drive the car and was told “Sorry, there are too few of these cars to allow them to be driven” I politely thanked them and stated that I could go down the road and test drive a 60K BMW or Mercedes but I can’t drive a 40k VW? I went to leave and the manager stopped me and let me drive the car. Needless to say I had no intention to buy the car at that point.
I did get an invitation to participate in the “Phaeton Experience”, which allows “A select 50 people in your area” (My subdivision?) to drive the Phaeton in advance of its release.
They did not provide any pricing information
Here is an excerpt from their site:
Welcome, You're getting closer to taking our Phaeton™ for a spin. So we figure now is a good time to share some more details and let you choose which city and date work best for you.
Basically, our test-drive program was designed to give you the total Phaeton experience in a way that's most convenient for you. You'll take your test drive at one of the participating W Hotels® near you, so you're right in the thick of all the action. Let's start. To reserve your spot, you'll need to choose the city where you'd like to
experience the Phaeton.
Next, pick a date between October 20, 2003 and February 8, 2004 that's most convenient for you. Just in case we're unable to schedule your first choice, pick a second and third date that will also work for you. Then tell us how long you would like the keys to the Phaeton - up to 24 hours - and if you'll need accommodations at W Hotels.
You will be assigned your very own Phaeton Manager, who will make sure that any needs you have regarding your Phaeton Experience are met. He or she will contact you, using the information you provide below, to confirm and finalize details and explain how to reserve a hotel room at a special Phaeton rate, if you like.
I will update if and when I drive the car...
I have yet to figure out where salesmen get this bs reasoning from. I had the same thing happen when I first tried to test drive a Nissan 350Z. They guy told me the exact same thing and I told him that I had driven an Audi A6 4.2 earlier that day and he replied "you must have had to sign a release". I wanted to say you moron...but I just told him what actually happened. The Audi guy took a copy of my drivers license and stuck a dealer plate on the A6 and said "have fun" and "bring it back in one piece". He couldn't believe that and just stood there, mouth open. I told him good day. Months later another Nissan saleman called (from another dealer that told me basically the same thing as the first one did), saying "we have plenty of cars in stock now so you can drive one"...I told him "no-thanks". I swear you could hear a rat relieve himself on cotton after that.....so deep the silence was. What goes around comes around at the VW dealer because the W8 has been anything but a seller. The 350Z on the other hand is still somewhat hot, oh well.
Anyway...I just had to get that out. VW is promising that Phaeton customers will get better treatment, but this is going to be extremely tricky with a Jetta owner like yourself getting the shaft with the Phaeton guy standing at the same service counter gets the royal treatment. They better have some security on the grounds also. I still think the only way this whole upmarket push is going to work is for the ENTIRE VW dealer group to be revamped, including the termination of the dealers who don't want to get their act together.
Let us know what you think of the car after you drive it.
M
As I said before, the Phaeton, as opposed to VW marketing's press releases, is a flop in Germany. Of a planned first-year sales of 14,000 units, only 7,800 were "sold", and nobody can tell whether they have been registered by actual owners or dealers.
Putting up short films on the web seems to have become a new trend, but it's not going to sell a car, which occupies space in an environment completely new for VW. Its own line of fine China (!) is not going to cut it,
other measures must be taken, and certainly so in the US.
Regarding pricing, I am stunned by the expected range mentioned by VWguild. On VW's German site, these are the current base prices for the four-seater versions:
3.2_V6__177kW_6-speed____68.100,00EUR
3.2_V6__177kW_automatic__69.750,00EUR
4.2_V8__246kW_automatic__84.150,00EUR
6.0_W12_309kW_automatic_106.100,00EUR
Note that the V8 and "W12" (if I ever get my hands on the one who mis-nomered that thing) are only available with AWD. Note also that VW canned its own "W8" contraption (think Passat) in favor of AUDI's V8, which now propells the Phaeton...
I went ahead and specified a V8 model with options I deem adequate for this class (sorry for the visual, but this board's SW cannot handle spaces or proper line-ups):
Phaeton 4-seater 4.2 V8___84.150,00 EUR
Metallic paint (silver)____1.020,00 EUR
Leather interior___________1.020,00 EUR
Wheels 18x7.5 w/235/50-18__1.530,00 EUR
Audio system w/DSP_________1.020,00 EUR
Navigationssystem__________2.530,00 EUR
Anti-theft___________________510,00 EUR
Double-xenon lamps___________410,00 EUR
Home link____________________200,00 EUR
Wood appliquees______________340,00 EUR
Multi functions st. wheel____580,00 EUR
Fog lights___________________200,00 EUR
Park distance control________750,00 EUR
Sunroof____________________1.320,00 EUR
"Keyless Access" system____1.170,00 EUR
Servo close for trunk lid____780,00 EUR
Sun shades rear & side wind._660,00 EUR
Total_____________________98.190,00 EUR
At today's exchange rate of 1.165, this translates to a whopping $114,000! Remember, this is the "lowly" V8, and not the highly anticipated power house.
Unless VW is out to immediately corner the US market with a street price of $80,000 for this very car (which they can't without losing credibility), there's someting I don't see.
To begin with, competition in Europe among dealerships is very minimal - since they are a lot less of them, and they are tightly controlled by the auto-industry. Most dealerships only sell one brand too, versus the ones in the US.
Secondly, SOME (not all) European countries have higher taxes that are tacked onto the cars than just VAT. One country (which I shall not name) taxes cars at 95% - and that's just the "Normal" tax! "Luxury" cars are taxed at a whopping 150%! (airbags = luxury, BTW).
Prices vary greatly from one European country to the next, even within the EU, beleive it or not. So I'm not too surprised that the Pheaton came out to a jaw-dropping $114K! Better start saving!
With regards to the level of customer service in the dealerships, I noticed that the one we went to had a very inconsistent level too. One day, you'd get cursed with the rudest, arrogant pig of a salesman - only to get a really knowledgeable and helpful person the very next day!
VW's got a lot of dealer fixing to do if they expect people to shell out lotsa $$ for a Phaeton! This is rather sad, because some dealerships are really good, but a lot are just horrid!
Had the comparison been made to Sweden or Italy, who assess horrendous taxes on luxury goods (in Italy, even the six-speed gearboxes used to cause higher tax levies), you had been right, but since I am only talking about Germany, the above statement is flawed. Even though there are surely not as many VW dealers in Germany as are Chevy (s)tealers in the US, I count about 20 or so dealers within a 30-mile radius of my hometown (population of ~110,000) alone. And the tight control is gone, too, as new laws severely limit the Mfg's influence on individual dealerships.
Prices vary greatly from one European country to the next, even within the EU, beleive it or not.
That might apply to the out-the-door cost, but net prices have been harmonized in order to avoid cross-shopping neighboring countries. Germany, i.e., applies a VAT of 16% to most goods, and this tax is included in above calculation. I challenge you to go and compare prices of similar BMWs, AUDIs and Mercedes in the US and in Germany. The maximum difference you'll find will be 10% - in favor of the US (cheaper).
That's why I'm saying I'd be very curious to find out about VW's approach to the US market. If they maintain the same ratio between here and there as the competition (and VW isn't exactly a charitable organization), their MSRP is going to be an initial killer for the car. If they try to position themselves among the luxo-competitors by undercutting everyone by 25%, they will be about as successful as Lada, I guess...
I've read articles at Auto.com noting that there are still price differentials between EU countries - so I really can't say if it really exists. All I know is that pricing in Britain is different from many EU countries.
US pricing will undoubtedly fluctuate - due to the Euro/Dollar conversion costs. In general, I have noticed that they are cheaper in the US by a little bit. Maybe it is the import tax structure, maybe it's because of the competition - I don't know. But I'm darned glad that it is cheaper here than over there!!!
Pheaton pricing is going to be an interesting issue, because right now we don't even know which engine they'd put in the car for $60-$80k. Is VW even bringing the 6cyl FWD models over here? Doesn't ring right with the luxo-market, just as the competition doesn't offer their small engine varieties that are common in Europe.
and the 6.0L W12(420HP)...And, as with the Touareg, we may see the V10 Twin Turbo Diesel Q4 2004 as a 2005MY car.
I will be getting more pricing specifics this week at The Phaeton Triad Meeting in San Diego, but basically ~$62K for the V8 and option up, and ~$80K for the W12/4 Seat Config. with all options including custom chroma flair paints...
99% will be built to order...
M
Questions?
Per Stategic Vision...Median Age:50-55, Male-75%, Married-85%, Children in Household-30%, Pre-Tax Family Income-$300,000, College Graduate-75%.
Just curious . . .
- Ray
Enjoying the car - dreading the anticipated depreciation . . .
the 12th of never and then pass it on to a family member.
The Phaeton, however; is a breed apart. The Glass Factory is a 130 Million Euro investment alone...And an emotional one as well...one of great magnitude. And, it shows in the car.
No detail has been overlooked...Everything has been done perfectly. The W12 engine has probably won more races world wide than any other...it powers our Bugatti and, of course, others in the
stable as well. The Leather is glove soft, ergonomics are perfect & simple, the 4MO/Quattro
All Wheel Drive System speaks for itself as being the best in the world. And, although at first I questioned the obvious similarity to the Passat, I remembered that no one at VWAG wants anyone to think that this anything but a VW...only bigger, better, and one helluva lot faster...:)
M
M
And, there is a great deal more involved here than endowment issues...Fit & Finish, Ergonomics,
simplicity of controls, space...Leg Room/Head Room, and All Wheel Drive, Warranty, to mention just a few, meet & exceed the others...
I only see the Phaeton "exceeding" it's V12 rivals in ease of controls (BMW) and fit and finish (Mercedes), and of course it has awd. I guess what I'm getting at is that I don't see enough of an advantage against those two cars, except for price and awd That will be the deciding factor because overall the Phaeton W12 at least, isn't beating those two car, it's only competitive. I thought the goal was to build a better car for less no?
M
I don't see how they are going to overcome their image and service issues. Someone dolling out that kind of money is not going to accept the same service that VW has been providing.
Just look at the W8. I would bet that 98% of the population wouldn't know what you were talking about.
vwguild, you must be a VW salesperson... If so you of all people should know that image is EVERYTHING!
Personally I think VW should have dropped the W12 in the Audi A8 and how about dropping the W16 in the S8. Now that would have had people really talking!!!
Don...Image is EVERTHING if you are Brit Spears or Madonna...For the rest of us Performance & Value are everything....
M
point being....VW will never be thought of as upscale enmasse so that someone will blow 40g on a PAssat. The Touareg has the SUV exception. Why would you buy a VW when you could a real upscale car?
You know, if VW quit wanting to put themselves on one level with the leading competitors, the whole thing would make sense, but the VW-driven incredible buzz re the Phaeton and its position in the market are a high pedestal to fall from. Piech's legacy's fallout, I guess...
As usual, only time will tell, and more of the fog will clear up once the official announcement of the car's price. Remember, a fully equipped "W12" stickers for about EURO 115k-120k in Germany.
Do you really believe that people buy BMW's, Audi’s and MB's because of their value?
People buy expensive items to show how important and wealthy they are, or in some cases, how they wish everyone else to perceive them as. This has been represented in every culture since man created civilization. It's all about the image of power and wealth.
Furthermore, the market VW is looking to sell to would, in my honest opinion, be willing to either spend more to get the bigger name and the greater performance or get less performance with the bigger name for the same cost.
I think the likely market is somewhere 35-45 males with a household income of 150-200k. That’s not to say that VW will not find a niche, I just feel it’s unlikely that those in the range you mentioned previously will actually be drawn to the vehicle.
Final note, all new vehicles depreciate, which only leaves an illusion of value.
The primary reason for my dedication to the Brand, is the customer that I serve. Like the "VW
Promise", they are different, original, honest, friendly and approachable.
The first is to make VWAG/VWOA a complete car company. MBZ and BMW have been creating less expensive products to reach a broader customer base...Younger and with smaller incomes. We are doing the same thing, but in reverse.
As the "Baby Boomer" VW Customer has matured both financially and chronologically, they have been forced to leave the Brand in order to acquire a fine luxury automobile...The Phaeton provides these customers with another option.
If we were doing nothing more than selling image;
we would have put the Bentley GT nose on the Phaeton. But we want no one to mistake this automobile. This is a Volkswagen. The finest VW ever built...With a world class powerplant, the "Best All Wheel Drive System in the world" according to AUTOWEEK, fit & finish beyond reproach, glove soft leathers and beautiful woods, a simplicity of design and ergonomic environment that embraces the driver and puts a smile on the face. Not to mention, an exhaust note that will raise the pulse...
Now you could look at this from a different perspective in that VWAG is looking to dilute the market. That may work to it's own advantage or it may not.
We'll have to wait and see.
I would disagree with you on two points. First, I think most people do buy BMWs and MBs because of image. Take BMW for instance. I believe there is a small percentage of BMW customers, perhaps 25%, that really values a driver's car like BMW offers. They could care less about the emblem. The other 75% are in it for the image plain and simple. Heck, my cousin wants a BMW because it's cool, yet she knows nothing about the performance of the car. I think she is very typical.
Second, there are people who buy VWs because of image. Many Passat buyers I would think are looking for the anti-Accord or anti-Camry and use the VW to express this. I feel many people conscious of brand image DO buy VWs.
That's my opinion at least.
Just one of those things...Go figure...