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Comments
That is great! Almost enough to give one hope! You know someone (or several someones over a LONG time) must have provided feedback to DOT on that one. Or, maybe more likely, a DOT big-wig ended up stuck there one day!
I have an inconsiderate train story, but with the way I can ramble, I probably should not share it.
BTW, great post on #10935. Illustrates the point perfectly in terms of reasonable and prudent... Something often lost in the pursuit of control.
Yeah, I know. People running abeam and stagnant in the left lane. This wasn't the case though, traffic was light with multiple lanes (more than two) and the drivers in the left lane were passing.... Just not at the speed the road-rager wanted.
Just because you're in the left lane does not mean you do not have to adjust to anyone else.... That's ridiculous! Nobody is immune to slower traffic... If their making progress passing, YOUR speed is not THEIR problem. If they actually nudge a little faster to let you by - I would consider a nice courtesy, but not required.
If they're running abeam and obviously doing it on purpose, then yes, they are wrong and in a way, are road-ragers themselves. I actually think this should be an offense worse than speeding, and they should be pulled over. I have a friend whose brother does this, so these idiots DO exist! He's extremely unpleasant to be with in a car, or anywhere else for that matter.
Somebody who is trying to push you in the right-lane however, is completely wrong. I think that's why the driver in the suv abeam of me got so upset with the Porsche.
If I recall correctly, we had a pretty lengthy discussion about this here a few months ago. There were some misunderstandings wherein several of us were actually saying the same thing while appearing to disagree, but I think we all ended up on the same page.
Basically, in crowded traffic areas, it's legimate to use the left lane as long as you're there to pass traffic and making a legitimate effort to do so fairly expeditiously (AND yield the left lane to faster-moving traffic as soon as it's safe and sensible to do so). People shouldn't feel the need to scurry out of the way of 100-mph death-wishers, but conversely it is not appropriate to just hang out in the left lane if you're more or less keeping pace with the other lanes (or just barely creeping ahead).
Another misunderstanding I had (can't remember with who) related to how it makes no sense to yield to faster-moving traffic if you're in the left lane, but following somebody else at a safe distance. People should not "leapfrog" to get ahead, if the road is simply too full. The "yield" guideline applies only if you're at the front of the pack in the left lane, and setting the pace for everybody behind.
(Of course, in these cases, somebody somewhere is probably camping in the left lane far ahead.)
And then again, in more rural areas, this all goes out the window. There is seldom any justification for hanging out in the left lane, beyond a quick pass.
So yes, the left lane thing is not absolute. There are grey areas. But I think courteous, considerate driving would lead most people to the same basic notions of what's appropriate.
And it does sound like your Porsche driver was on the inconsiderate side of things.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Must be nice to be able to justify ignoring things you feel are inconvienent.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
*cough* straw man *cough*...
Must be nice to blindly do whatever you are told, no matter the lack of logic and accountability owned by those making the rules or consequences to be faced by the "lawbreaker".
I am not sure that is correct in every case. I have know some people who were just oblivious to what was around them unless it was directly in front of them.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I have one too, if you tell yours I will tell mine.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Yes it is, someone somewhere arbitrarily set the street to be one way. Do you think that the vast majority of the people using said streets would only be going one way on it if it wasn't made a one way street?
One of the arguments being presented is that SL's are arbitrary because of the 85% rule that says that 85% of the drivers will drive at or below a "reasonable" speed. Hence the SL should reflect that. Applying that to one way street only those that normally would have the vast majority of the traffic traveling in one direction should be made a one way street. Anything else would be as abritart as setting a speed limit that is less than the mythical 85% rule.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
On a whim, I decided to take a 1.5-mile jaunt "down the street" to grab a sandwich from a local shop. To get there, I drive about 1/4 mile down College Rd, take a left onto University Av and drive about 1/2 mile, take a right on Geist Rd and drive about 3/4 mile, take a left into the drive and viola - I am there. As the sandwiches are pre-made, I expect this to be a 10 minute trip all told.
I take the first turn onto Univ Ave... and there is a train *slowly* crossing the road. I mean, this thing was moving, perhaps, 2 miles per hour. Many of the cars in line (two lanes each direction) are turning around and heading the other way. As I could see the engines on the train, only about 6 cars down the track, I decided to wait. Slowly.... slowly.... the train is moving to clear the road. It took about 5 minutes for the cars to finally cross or enter the roadway and, just as the engine is about to cross, it stops. STOPS!!! It sat there for 30 seconds, maybe a minute, then creeped back the direction it came. :confuse:
It is three o'clock in the afternoon! The nearby high school was letting out for the day, traffic was booming, and here is a train blocking one of the city's major arteries for 15+ minutes. Unbelievable.
I finally decided to also turn around and cut through the university - the sandwich shop was about midway down Geist between my intended direction of arrival and hitting it from the university access side, so the added distance was not too much. Of course, the one caveat was that I was in the rightmost lane. Thankfully, the truck beside me had pulled up with a large gap in front of him, so I honked my horn to get his attention, made eye contact and gestured my intention, then squeezed between him and the car in front of me.
The trip through the university was quick, but I swear that every car in Fairbanks was taking the same detour and I felt sorry for anyone wanting to access the road from a university parking lot. It was just a solid chain of cars in both directions! The roundabout I had to navigate was all but clogged - moving along steadily, but timid drivers were nearly creating gridlock for their lack of accessing it. Once through, I made my way to the shop, grabbed the sandwich, hopped in the car, crossed my fingers that the train would be gone by now, and headed back on my original route. The train was gone and traffic was back to normal. *whew*
Well one night as I was driving home I approach the tracks and everything was nice and dark. Just before hitting the crossing the light of the train comes on and the horn blows. Scared the $#@& out of me. I found out a few days later that this clown did it to several cars crossing in front of him as he just sat there. :mad:
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
First of all, the words you're referring to are Fintail's, not mine, but I saw a fallacious argument brewing and I had to comment.
Secondly, it is a straw man argument, because you're setting up a rhetorical "opponent" (the one-way streets and signal lights) that you can easily "defeat," under the misleading guise of a supposed analogy.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I've thought about this too, because it happens in a few places here (mainly in San Francisco where the highway splits several times).
I go by the same "rule" I use with moving over for normal right-side exits: assuming the signage is adequate and tells you when you're getting close to the exit, I try to move to the exit lane no later than a mile from the actual exit, especially if traffic is dense.
I figure I should treat left-side exits the same way. Usually by the time I encounter a sign telling me I need the left lane for my exit, I assume I should get over.
As I said ... straw man. The analogy is absurd. I needn't even dignify it by explaining why (and Fintail basically already has anyway).
Let's stick to substantive reasoning if we're going to discuss this topic at all here (which we probably shouldn't much more than we already have).
the analogy is a valid analogy as I have already explained.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
(Where is a brick wall for me to bang my head against?)
A straw man argument is one in which you artificially construct an opposing argument that's easy to tear down, such that "any reasonable person" would be forced to agree.
"Any reasonable person" will agree that if you routinely ran stop lights and drove the wrong way on one-way streets in a dense traffic area, the amount of sheer carnage would be mind-boggling, and guaranteed.
And I even make a possible exception allowing for Fintail's example. I once got caught at a red light and sat there watching zero traffic go by for a good 10 minutes before I realized the light was apparently broken. At what point did it cease to be morally repugnant for me to take matters into my own hands and continue through the perpetually red light? Splitting hairs again? Perhaps, but if you're going to make absolute statements, you must be prepared to defend them on any level of granularity.
Okay, you got your way, I stood up and explained to the class that if you let go of a rock, it will fall to earth. I'm tired of playing this game and I'm going home
If we can get past this straw man argument, I've already spelled out the rest in #10936.
One way street decisions don't provide money. Speed limit decisions do.
And again, laws aren't correct just because they are laws.
Once I was out in the country, cruising in the old car, when I came across a railroad crossing with a long train going by. I was in no hurry, so I just stopped and relaxed. Well, the train started going slower and slower...until it stopped. Then it started going the other direction! So I waited a few more minutes...and it slowed, stopped again, and went back the other direction! By this time there were some cars behind me. The thing just kind of barely lurched along...so I looked back, motioned to the cars behind me, and we all turned around and took an alternate route. I never knew what was going on there.
I am having the same feeling.
A straw man argument is one in which you artificially construct an opposing argument that's easy to tear down, such that "any reasonable person" would be forced to agree.
I know what a straw man argument is. it is to create a position that is easy to refute, then attribute that position to the opponent. Hence this is not a straw man argument since I am not misrepresenting my opponents argument but making an analogy. An anology that is similar to the argument being presented to show where their argument errs.
I am not constructing my opponents argument so it is not a straw man argument.
I will say this one more time. the argument was made that SL's are set up that are unreasonable, arbitrary and undefensable so it is reasonable to exceed them. Taking that same logic I used one way streets which are also set up arbitrarily and with as little justification. If it ok for one to speed because the SL's are arbitrary and hard to defend then the argument can be made for going the wrong way on a one way street since that traffic law is also arbitrary and hard to defend.
"Any reasonable person" will agree that if you routinely ran stop lights
Now for one who is complaing about others setting up a straw man argument you just set one up yourself by misrepresenting what I said. if you read back you would see that I said " I know a few stop lights".
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Close, but not quite...
I never said the reasoning behind them was the same. I am saying is that both are arbitrary and if you ignore one because its arbitrary then why don't you ignore the other because it is also arbitrary? In this sense you are picking and choosing what laws you are observing and are ignoring.
Since one does not ignore the one way street because it is arbitrary and hard to defend then claiming that not following the SL simply because it is arbitrary and hard to defend is just a justification for speeding.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
No its right on.
A straw man argument is a logical fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "set up a straw man" or "set up a straw-man argument" is to create a position that is easy to refute, then attribute that position to the opponent. A straw-man argument can be a successful rhetorical technique (that is, it may succeed in persuading people) but it is in fact a misleading fallacy, because the opponent's actual argument has not been refuted.
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
We used to go there and race the trains to the bridge. There were two stop signs that we had to stop at and one small town that really slowed us down. While the freight trains were easy to beat to the bridge but the Amtraks were unbeatable. They would travel 80+ MPH down that stretch and we could never catch up after stopping at the first stop sign.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Not quite, because "attributing" in this case is relying on a faulty analogy. The Wikipedia definition touches on this analogy component at the end:
but it is in fact a misleading fallacy, because the opponent's actual argument has not been refuted.
It is the analogy that has been refuted. Not the argument. And the analogy, in this case, doesn't work.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
The one-way streets, combined with the short spacing of blocks (at least in the north-south direction), make it so much easier to make left turns.
Speed limits are set for a variety of reasons, not all of them perfectly logical. Take Manhattan, for example, where the blanket speed limit is 30 mph. There are few exceptions.
But in my little burg, and in lots of business and residential areas in VA, the majority of streets are limited to 25 mph. Now I can see 25 mph in the center of town, but not in more outlying areas. Why is this? I don't think it has so much to do with "revenue collection" but because of complaints by residents who don't want any speeding on their OWN streets.
I've seen the same thing happen on the street I grew up on in a Pittsburgh suburb. My mother still lives there. For as far back as I can remember, the speed limit was 35 mph, which was perfectly reasonable. Then one day several years ago, the politicians decided to lower the limit to 25 mph.
It's absurd to go so slowly, and there's been no real development on that road since I left there over 30 years ago. But I guess because of a few speeders going maybe 50 or so and the resultant complaints, the limit had to be lowered arbitrarily to 25.
Another irritant in the Pittsburgh area, but fortunately NOT used in VA, is the use of frequent 4-way stops whose sole purpose is to slow down traffic.
And they'll make the line form behind them if they have to.
I really am always amazed at how the judgement is made that the person in the left lane is intentionally trying to bother the person wanting to speed-paranoia.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Sadly, the "rules" on this continent seldom have anything to do with lane discipline.
If the reasoning is different, than both aren't automatically arbitrary. I am certain a lot more work goes into determining one way streets than slapping numbers on speed limit signs. I can't think of any one way streets that could easily be judged arbitrary...yet the amount of speed limits judged so would never end,
And yes, we all pick which laws to observe and which to ignore, as nobody obeys every law.
It is well known and demonstrated time and time and time again, passing only in the left lane will NOT be enforced.
Yes, I've seen a lot of examples of this, and I have to imagine many such cases are the result of residents raising a fuss and getting special legislation passed for their streets. It's maddening either because the limits are set so artificially/arbitrarily low, or because there is such inconsistency.
I'm in a townhome complex off a street connecting two major thoroughfares in Sunnyvale. It's a maybe half-mile stretch, basically with residential complexes and a couple business parks (plus an entrance to a major expressway), and for some bizarre reason, the speed limit is 25. Now, mind you, there are very few houses facing the road, and the complexes are fairly self-contained. There is no sensible reason for such a low limit, and nobody drives that slowly anyway. Two blocks away, another road with tons of residential units facing the street is 35 to 40.
To make matters worse, a sign appeared outside my complex a few months ago that says "Mr. Speeder, Meet Mr. Traffic Cop." I can't help but picture the [admittedly stereotyped] Home Owners' Association woman from the movie "Over the Hedge" with a big self-righteous smug smile on her face, proud of herself for coming up with that painfully laughable sign.
Where route 13 leaves downtown Ithaca (back in NY), it winds out through a several-mile stretch of strip malls and the limit remains 30. Again, nobody goes this speed. And here in Sunnyvale (CA), a far more developed commercial strip has a limit of 45. Nobody goes 45 there -- it feels too fast! Cross over to the other side of the railroad tracks and suddenly it's 35 through an otherwise identical section.
It's readily apparent that a lot of posted limits truly have no bearing on the reality of the location relative to anywhere else. It's all about who raises the biggest fuss and who managed to have the most sway in local legislative bodies.
What surprised me is the number of different things that went through my mind. Certainly significant was the usual irritation with the gridlocked traffic that resulted. Consider this was on my side of the divided 8-lane highway, and the accident was on the other side. Well, old story. There has to be a special place reserved in the 7 circles of whatever driver's subterranean afterlife for the rubberneckers who hit the brakes to gawk at an accident well across the median.
Or more colorfully, I didn't know it was possible to perform an autocolonoscopy, and even more so, while driving!
I definitely felt a note of concern, because the minivan did not look good. How, I wondered, did the roof get so crumpled? Did it roll over and land back on its "feet?" I shudder to consider the severity.
And then an evil little thought crossed my mind -- one that felt incredibly inappropriate, given the morbid scene. Did somebody make an unsignaled lane change, or tailgate, or weave, or change lanes without even looking, or any of the usual offenses one too many times, such that fate finally caught up with him/her?
One cannot assume. The minivan could have been innocent collateral damage from somebody else's idiocy. I don't wish harm on anybody, but I certainly hope that if everybody survived mostly unharmed, an inconsiderate driver is the one who gets slapped with the bloated insurance premiums.
I felt a little guilty for feeling so vindictive in the face of a possible tragedy. It's interesting, the things one will reflexively think after so many years on the road.
I am not sure that is correct in every case. I have know some people who were just oblivious to what was around them unless it was directly in front of them.
That's just as bad.
No, the real problem is that people seem to lack situational awareness. They want what they want and they want it NOW. If that means following the speed limit, they blockade to make sure everyone does. If they want to go fast, they tailgate and weave to get through. If they want to turn, they'll do it without stopping.
That's the real problem. Put aside your law book Snakeweasel and look at the real world. It doesn't always function according to what the law says. The first duty of a driver is to maintain the safety of those around them. That's the spirit of the law.
You have the same situation very close to me. You would be surprised at the number of kids crossing the road between the houses that don't face the road and the self contained complexes. Really residential areas should have SL's low for that reason.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
On a related note one time I was on the Edens expressway in Chicago (I-94). Traffic was very light and I was in the left lane passing some idiot. I call this guy an idiot simply because he kept pace with me when my rear bumper was equal to his A pillar. If I sped up he sped up, if I slowed down he slowed down. Just couldn't shake this idiot. I finally just floored it and got ahead of him.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Agreed and one way to do that is not to have a lead foot.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I think I'm about to "light off" this forum.... Everybody is "go for throttle up" hee hee.......
Take the people that are oblivious to what's around them while in the left-lane and ALSO talking on the cell-phone!
Just as bad redmaxx? I'd say that's an understatement. They have that fun fact that 40% of the population is capable of a temporary psychotic episode. This means that out of ten cars, four of them have a propensity to go insane if the conditions are just right.
Go ahead......... Use your cell phone in heavy traffic twitville - and make sure you do it the left lane. Have you pre-planned your funeral arrangements? There is going to be a bad accident on the beltway Barney, and I think this is already starting to happen.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
It's perfectly possible to see a massive spectacle of destruction unfolding across the highway without hitting the brakes so you can bask in the horror.
On those precious few occasions when I pass such a scene and traffic isn't gridlocked on my side, of course I glance for a split second (all the flashing lights tend to draw one's attention), but I maintain my speed and keep my attention on the road.
The problem is that many people either take their foot off the gas, or actually hit the brakes (I've seen people do this in light traffic, with nobody in front of them, when passing an accident scene well across the median.)