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Argh. I get this happening to me all the time at one particular intersection in town - ironically, it is also very near a Wal-Mart. This intersection is graded such that the intersecting road slopes slightly up toward the main road (a lightly used 2-lane w/ center turn) and is glazed slick this time of year. So, this is not one of those intersections where you can just leap across. You have to plan, start slowly, and work your way across. Without fail, the last three or four times I have turned left onto the main street, the vehicle on the opposing side, having arrived after my car, has gone across at the same time I started to take my left turn. So far, I have been lucky in that I was able to complete the turn without being hit. The last time, though, the truck traveling in the lane into which I was turning hit the brakes fairly hard (granted, it was probably traveling at 40 mph on an unmarked road in a business district... what is the default there... 20 mph?) when I was stuck sitting in the middle of the road waiting for Mr. Me First to travel across. Thankfully, that Subaru gets decent traction, even with the crappy OEM tires, and I was able to punch it out of there quickly to get out of the way.
My usual morning route takes me to an uphill merge onto 85. Generally my car has been running for only a few minutes at this point, so I take it fairly easy on the revs. But the WRX has no problem accelerating up to highway speed even in top gear.
As I approached the end of the on-ramp today, one of my favorite sorts of fellows appeared, coming up in the right lane of 85. He's the "I'm not going to do anything to let you in before the on-ramp ends; in fact, if at all possible, I'm going to make it more difficult for you" type.
It was a late 90's M3, and I could tell by the way he sped up (to make SURE I didn't get in ahead of him) that he has a certain amount of "I have a fast car and I'll do what I want with it" ego.
Under normal circumstances, the WRX would dispatch that generation of the M3 with ease, but I was still warming up the engine and didn't want to push it. So I conceded this particular "ego battle" for the sake of my car's long-term health.
Probably the guy wasn't expecting me to speed up at all, but unlike the apparent majority of the people on the road here who crawl down on-ramps and then hit the highway at 30 mph, I actually know how to merge.
I've also noticed that some drivers of expensive luxury cars seem to underestimate my little Subaru. Maybe they see the small decklid spoiler and hood scoop (all factory) and think it's "all flash and no dash." I didn't buy it so I could do battle with other drivers, but I won't hesitate to tap into its capabilities when people try to bully me on the road ... *sigh* :sick:
Alas, I held back, so this time Mr. M3 got his way; but go figure, I moved into the middle lane and was way ahead of him within moments anyway. He wasn't even in a hurry! But he just couldn't bear the thought of letting somebody on the highway... :sick:
Sounds like you never driven in an IKEA parking lot. Off topic IKEA was way inconsiderate in the way they designed their new store here. Someone was smoking something when they designed it.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
The driver merging onto the highway has to yield right of way to traffic on the road. this of course doesn't mean that traffic on the highway cannot be considerate, just means they have right of way.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I've seen that happen, on I-17 no less. To me, that is the only acceptable time (emergency) for a police car to slow down traffic, not just for the sake of slowing it down. I've been in packs of traffic on I-17 with a cop car in front and it's downright scary. Four lanes of bumper to bumper traffic (if they're really interested in safety, why aren't they giving out tailgating tickets, hmmmm?) that fluctuates their speed, switches lanes hoping to get to the front and then traffic comes down the ramp to get on and all hell breaks loose and they try to merge into traffic.
Whatever your feelings are about speeding, officers should not do this knowing the effects on traffic. It even worked to one officer's detriment one day, as I saw him stuck in 50 MPH traffic (that he created) tailgating feet off of the bumper of the car in front of him. He was as dangerous as those I've seen weaving in and out of traffic, which he started to do.
The biggest problem with these rolling roadblocks are the traffic jams they create. On AZ highways that are in central Phoenix, they use an antiquated 55 MPH speed limit, across 7-8 lanes of traffic. You may say it is unsafe to go 65 or 75, but I every time I'm in traffic going 65-75 it is far safer and smoother than all lanes going 55. My theory is that when you go slower, your car occupies a chunk of the freeway for a longer time than at higher speed. One of the following must then happen: Cars must exit the freeway to maintain safe distances or more capacity must be added to maintain safe distances. If one of those doesn't happen, cars bunch up and then start jockeying to get a better position. As a result of this, the faster the traffic goes, the more capacity you get.
Which would you rather be in? A pack of traffic at 55 MPH, with each car 1/2 second behind the car in front of them or at 65-75 with proper following distances?
I mean, what is that, leaving a cart directly behind another car? That's something a psychopath would do, isn't it?
Speaking of the worst possible inconsiderate behavior, I have seen too many examples of lazy people not clearing their cars of snow and ice the last two days to even count. It nearly cost a guy in Brooklyn his life -- he was driving down the Belt Parkway when a car in front of him shed an enormous chunk of ice. You should have seen what it did to his roof and windshield -- it looked like a bomb hit it.
So today a Yonkers assemblyman sponsored a bill that would make it illegal to drive without fully clearing off your car (I think this is a new law in NJ and PA). 'Bout time.
Are you extrapolating that concept to if you're going 90-110 you occupy a space for a shorter period of time there it's safe? I hope not. And I disagree that is the case vs travel at 55 if 55 is the speed limit.
The friction occurs with people who aren't happy going the speed limit trying to jockey for high speed opportunities within the traffic.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
So officers shouldn't do things so people can break the law?
My theory is that when you go slower, your car occupies a chunk of the freeway for a longer time than at higher speed.
Sounds like a justification for a lead foot. Your theory is wrong, you car occupies the same amount of space no matter how fast you drive. The only thing that changes as you go faster is the rate at which you move the space you occupy. Now look at it this way, the faster you go the more space you need between you and the car in front of you. This means you actually occupy more space going faster (the space you physically occupy and the buffer zone a head of you).
One of the following must then happen: Cars must exit the freeway to maintain safe distances or more capacity must be added to maintain safe distances.
That is what happens when you travel faster. For a lane of highway to maintain a higher speed in a safe manner it must hold fewer cars per mile. One lane of highway can safely hold 30 cars doing 55 MPH (presuming you follow the 2 second rule) but at 75 MPH it drops to 22 cars.
As a result of this, the faster the traffic goes, the more capacity you get.
Just the opposite.
Which would you rather be in? A pack of traffic at 55 MPH, with each car 1/2 second behind the car in front of them or at 65-75 with proper following distances?
Tell me which would you rather be in 55MPH traffic following at the proper distance or 75 MPH following at the same distance (remembering that that same distance is not a safe distance doing 75 MPH)?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I hate those twits that are so discourteous that one cannot have a chance to get onto the freeway or other roads. I am glad you did not let that slug get you into an accident. And Subaru is a great car.
Stay safe and havea great week end
jensad
a few days ago, we had a severe snow/ice storm.
leaving work, i pulled up the the right of a saab sedan at a traffic light.
as i braked, i saw that they were not in the real driving lane(too far to the right), and only one of us could make it across the intersection, so i stopped about a fender short of their vehicle. they then pulled up a bit so they were half a car ahead of me. it kind of bothered me, since i made no intention fo trying to beat them to the other side of the intersection. i did notice they had some snow tires on.
well anyways, when the light turned green, they hit the gas and jumped about a car ahead. suddenly their car pretty much stopped. i realized their traction control cut the power, so i gassed it up, my fronts grabbed due to the auto 4x4, and i was gone.
So officers shouldn't do things so people can break the law?
Not at all what I said. I said they shouldn't do things in a manner that they know causes problems for traffic flow and decreases the safety.
Sounds like a justification for a lead foot.
*cough*cough*cough* I'm choking from all these things your cramming down my throat. I never said that! I was simply theorizing as to why traffic flows more compactly when there is an officer artificially holding down the speed of traffic.
Your theory is wrong, you car occupies the same amount of space no matter how fast you drive.
Read again, I said your car occupies a chunk of the freeway for less amount of time the faster you go.
The only thing that changes as you go faster is the rate at which you move the space you occupy.
Is there an echo in the room? This is exactly what I said.
Now look at it this way, the faster you go the more space you need between you and the car in front of you. This means you actually occupy more space going faster (the space you physically occupy and the buffer zone a head of you).
And in turn, when traffic merges, there are larger spaces for them to merge into.
Just the opposite.
Well, I didn't phrase that part very well. Obviously, when traffic goes slower, more cars fit on the road. But, when they go faster, more "new" cars fit into the road better.
Tell me which would you rather be in 55MPH traffic following at the proper distance or 75 MPH following at the same distance (remembering that that same distance is not a safe distance doing 75 MPH)?
Obviously, the 55 MPH traffic. However, every time I'm in 55 MPH traffic, it is never as you describe. I find that for drivers here in Phoenix, they are more likely to follow at larger distances at 75 MPH.
I'd hardly call 75 MPH a lead foot, which is what I usually drive. Maybe next time you'll slow down and read what I posted and was actually saying.
No, I was saying that traffic flows better at the natural speeds rather than the artificially low levels police sometimes try to hold them to. Natural in this instance being 65-75 rather than 55.
The friction occurs with people who aren't happy going the speed limit trying to jockey for high speed opportunities within the traffic.
Friction also occurs when you've got a block of traffic that was previously going 65-75 smoothly, with nice gaps where traffic could merge, but is now a compact block at 55 and traffic tries to merge on, but has no room. People start braking, changing lanes, etc.
Lets see a police officer driving at above the speed limit causes traffic to back up behind him, and its the police officers fault? Sound to me its the fault of the people who think its ok to break the speed limit.
The police officer is not causing any traffic flow problems of creating an unsafe situation, its the inconsiderate drivers who ignore the speed limit.
Read again, I said your car occupies a chunk of the freeway for less amount of time the faster you go.
Your car still occupies the same amount of space no matter how fast you go.
And in turn, when traffic merges, there are larger spaces for them to merge into.
You would think but since traffic is moving faster there is the same amount of time and the rest of the traffic still has to adjust.
Well, I didn't phrase that part very well. Obviously, when traffic goes slower, more cars fit on the road. But, when they go faster, more "new" cars fit into the road better.
No not true. The faster traffic is flowing the harder and more dangerous for traffic to enter the road.
Obviously, the 55 MPH traffic.
Good now you see the fallacy of your argument. You are asking someone to choose between a dangerous and a not so dangerous situation. Its not the speed in your question but between two dissimilar situations.
I find that for drivers here in Phoenix, they are more likely to follow at larger distances at 75 MPH.
And so they should. On a well maintained road in good conditions one needs to be 60 feet further away from the car in front of you, even farther in sub0optimal conditions.
I'd hardly call 75 MPH a lead foot, which is what I usually drive.
Whats the speed limit when you drive that?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I think I understand your intent on this topic. But, it has nothing to do with the speeds of the vehicles - it is all about the mindset of the drivers. Obviously, snakeweasel is correct about necessary gaps, road capacity, etc. The problem is that when drivers are traveling slower than what they have come to expect - especially when it is "artificially" created either by a patrol car or an LLC pacing vehicles to the right - they tend to become impatient and irritable. They shorten their traveling distances, switch lanes frequently in an effort to capitalize on passing opportunities, and generally become less predictable/more dangerous. Every inch of roadway suddenly becomes a precious victory. Forget about merging and appropriate lane changes.
Quite frankly, if proper following distances are maintained and lane change maneuvers are well planned and executed, these artificial congestion situations would not be any more dangerous or frustrating than any other high-density situation. Traveling at a preferred speed (at/near the SL or not) is a luxury afforded by prevailing traffic conditions, so the mindset should be to appreciate it while it exists and to weather it amiably when it does not.
I often must remind myself of that during winter conditions here, but thankfully this winter has been kind in that regard. :sick:
Right of way can also get you killed sometimes (images of pedestrians running out into crosswalks in front of oncoming traffic come to mind).
My situation was more about courteousness and common sense than about strict right-of-way. Somebody may have the "right" to speed up to not let me on the highway; similarly, I have the "right" (and ability) to blow the doors off said car to prevent him from doing so.
But both situations are kind of unnecessary and tend to get people riled up, never a good thing on a crowded road.
It is "natural" to pass gas, but not recommended when with others.
The police officer is not causing any traffic flow problems of creating an unsafe situation, its the inconsiderate drivers who ignore the speed limit.
I didn't say it was the police officer's fault, but the police officer doesn't need to hold up traffic to accomplish their job. Remember, their job is to make things safer. If their actions have the end result of making things less safe, they should take different action. Why is this so hard for you to see?
Your car still occupies the same amount of space no matter how fast you go.
I'm not disagreeing, you're the one hung up on how much space the car occupies.
You would think but since traffic is moving faster there is the same amount of time and the rest of the traffic still has to adjust.
It's not merely "think" but know. I know that when traffic is going 55 MPH it is more tightly bunched together and traffic getting on has a more difficult time. There is more braking and inevitably, traffic slows to about 35 MPH for 1/2->1 mile. At 75, it may slow to 65 for 1/4->1/2 mile as people adjust.
Whats the speed limit when you drive that?
65
The police officers job is to enforce the law, that would include enforcing the speed limit.
Again if everyone else didn't have a disregard for the law and have such a "me first" attitude then the bunch up would not happen.
I know that when traffic is going 55 MPH it is more tightly bunched together and traffic getting on has a more difficult time.
And it is even more difficult when traffic is going 75 and it is bunched together. But at slower speeds it is easier for most people to get up to the speed of traffic when they merge.
65
So you're traveling at 75 in a 65, that would be a lead foot as you are speeding.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Assuming speed limits are set at a logical and defendable number.
Laws aren't correct by their mere existence.
You can pick any speed and there will be those that think it is not a logical and defendable number.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Only one I have from today is your basic lane discipline. For some reason, folks have a hard time tracking straight in their lanes. Makes me very nervous as my car isn't three weeks old yet!!
Oh, no? What did you get? You did not replace the now-famous Sentra, did you?! :P
Along the lines of lane discipline, I saw this small pickup on the way home Friday that was driving, literally, down the middle of both lanes (two lanes each direction, 35 SL). It would move solidly into the left lane, then weave back to straddle them. It was kinda funny, at one point, because there was a small car trying to pass in the right lane. It would start the pass, then drop back, then start the pass, then drop back.... finally the truck's driver stayed in the left lane long enough for the car to pass before resuming the weave. I told my wife to write down the plate #, but as we would not be able to call it in until about 15 minutes later, she told me I was silly and refused to do it. I am used to that response, though.
Anyway for the mental giants out there.
Saturday morning going to work near the end of an all night snow storm I saw the following.
On a long winding road with one lane in each direction in the middle of all the snow was, I kid you not, three bicyclists riding along. Now mind you that this was after an all night snowstorm and the road they were on was not plowed, just two ruts in each lane. Well these bikers were peddling down one of the ruts in the road and they really had no place to go if a car came on them. Of course the cars passing them would have to get out of the ruts and plow through several inches of snow and mush that accumluates between the ruts, Not a safe thing to do at that time.
Later on I am on a well plowed well traveled road that was basically just wet. The one car leading a pack was doing 20-25 MPH :sick:
Then I made a turn onto a road that just went through a local forest preserve. One lane in each direction, hardly used and not plowed. For obvious reasons I was accelerating slowly. Well maybe not to obvious since the SUV behind me decided to try to pass. When s/he tried s/he realized why I was accelerating slowly as as soon as she merged into the oncoming lane and hit the gas s/he spun out. Yep went right into the ditch.
Oh I just love snow storms.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
First offer probably takes it from me, but my daughter is using it to drive to her job on weekends at the moment, keeping it in fighting trim!
1.) It would have made me late for an appointment I had.
2.) It was an SUV they should have been able to get out by themselves.
3.) I figured that what was under the flashing yellow lights that came one a few cars behind us when it happened was going to help them.
BTW are you The Bi Gal or The Big AL and if the later are you related to me?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Depends on the law. It's not wrong to break a law just because it's a law. If you're going to take everything so literally, 61 in a 60 is just as bad as 161.
Speaking of lane discipline, people probably think I am drunk, as I usually weave around the local potholes and manhole covers that are either raised 4" or sunk 6" below the road surface.
Actually it is unless there is a very good reason for it. Not liking the law and claiming that going faster is reasonable is not a good reason. And yes 61 in a 60 is wrong but you are splitting hairs here.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Haha... yeah, until they hit them! :surprise:
Now that you mentioned it many decades ago something like that happened to us. About 2 am coming back from work we were going down a road that was being resurfaced and manhole covers were several inches above the road level as the stripped the top surface off. Well we were weaving through this mess as the road was empty. Well a cop saw us and pulled us over just in case.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
But, in general, one might as well not stop unless genuinely able to help. I came across this "dilemma" when driving through Buffalo many years ago. My mindset is to always stop and help, but in this case I was driving a FWD rental car with no appreciable emergency equipment (most notably, no cell phone or tow strap) and all 4 seats taken, so I honestly could not do anything to help the drivers who slid into the ditch.
Probably a good thing, too. Considering how many drivers were in the ditches, that could have been a day-long activity!
Which has almost happened all too many times lately! :surprise:
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I can see a cop getting someone for it at night, when the holes are hard to spot.
If it is so black and white that it is wrong to break a law just because it is a law, then it is just as wrong to exceed the "law" by any amount. Black and white for one is black and white for all.
I think this is a good idea in principle, although I can just picture it playing out in an overly wealthy region like the San Francisco bay area. There are a LOT of people here for whom a quarter would be such a small amount of money, it's not even worth thinking about. Probably a lot of silicon valley professionals/executives wouldn't even care if they lost a $20 bill if they didn't feel like returning the cart. (I know people like this!)
You'd seriously have to make these people leave the title to their Hummers if you wanted the cart returned.
Let's hope most decent people would be more selfless and courteous
This is a very good point, and I think anybody who would debate the actions of traffic-slowing police on the strict merits of written laws alone might be giving insufficient weight to this factor.
Basically, you have to take human psychology -- especially in a mass/collective situation -- into consideration. Anything that disrupts a natural/expected traffic flow and adds to the collective "anxiety," if you will, of a pack of drivers is clearly a hazard.
In the case of an officer enforcing a reduced pace, this hazard must be weighed from a cost/benefit standpoint against the supposed hazard of the speeding the officer is discouraging. This is going to come down to personal opinion, but I believe a bunch of nervous, twitchy drivers clumped together at the posted SL in a dense pack behind an officer is far more hazardous than the same drivers freely exceeding the posted limit to a certain degree.
What constitutes a "certain degree?" This is subjective, of course, but there is a ubiquitous concept called "the flow of traffic" which indicates a speed (which may or may not correspond to the posted limit) at (or near) which the majority of traffic is moving. Clearly if you have somebody hauling along at 100 in dense traffic flowing at 65-75, it presents a hazard, and reasonable grounds for police intervention.
Otherwise, I believe police (and public safety) interests might be better served by going after tailgaters, left lane campers, non-signaling-lane-changers, and other moving hazards you almost never see getting ticketed.
I think splitting hairs is reasonable, given the status you're attributing to these laws as the ultimate arbiters of traffic morality.
A democratic society is founded on dissent. No law is absolute; it is merely a formal representation of the collective views procedurally agreed upon at a given point in time, and always subject to revision through the very dissent that absolute belief in a law would muzzle.
Police activity might work against those who choose to dissent in a non-procedural manner (e.g., exceed the speed limit), but that has nothing to do with absolute right/wrong.
Beyond that, it comes down to opinion; and as considerate and skilled as all the drivers in this forum are
I'm biting my tongue ... I could go a lot further off-topic, but I'm going to shift gears, and actually make a relevant segue!
A month or two ago, I complained here about a traffic light I pass every day that, upon approach of a commuter train, would turn red and trap traffic which had already passed the tracks. Oncoming traffic, on the other hand, was given a permanent protected left green until the train had passed.
This was really, really, really dumb. (And irritating.) You could almost feel stress levels rising in the cars around you when people got stuck.
Sunnyvale seems to have realized the error of its ways, because this appears to have been remedied. Now the light facing away from the tracks, and the protected left turn for the direction facing towards the tracks, operate independently from the signals relating to the train crossing.
This is a shining example of procedural revision to -- in this case -- an inherently flawed traffic light setup.
Okay, still not 100% relevant to inconsiderate driving, but it's a step in the right direction
The fact that they are set by those we elect into office to do things that include setting speed limits.
Speed laws are anything but logical, the reason is often impossible to detect.
Again you can say that for any speed limit set.
then it is just as wrong to exceed the "law" by any amount.
I never disagreed.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Then some smart kid would show up and return the carts for the quarters. If enough people just leave the carts you can make s few bucks doing that.
The airport did that with baggage carts and you would see them left in the parking lot. We would return them when we were at the airport and take in a few bucks (paid for the parking).
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Yes, you can make claims for any speed limit. And those who set the limits don't seem to be able to justify their numbers. Even on my short commute there are some very weird limits...not even too high or low, just random 5mph changes. But I am sure there is a valid reason...elected officials are behind it. They do a great job!
It has formed a perfect "stair-step" formation with the car in the ultra left lane farthest from me - but everything is appropriate - as you go farther left, that car/suv is going a little faster... No complaints.
As the pack closes in on me, the vehicle closest to me is a large suv. I'm in a Miata driving "geezer style" but that's o.k., I'm in the right lane. Suddenly I glimpse an extremely fast moving vehicle way back, in the left lane, closing in on the pack with dangerous and excessive speed. I fear the suv has blocked the view of the speeder and he thinks he has a "hole" if he sweeps through the lanes to the right........ My fears are correct!
I suddenly have a Porsche with dangerous speed approaching fast - he sees me and I see his vehicle make that sickish tail-shake and dust plume when somebody is braking to avoid collision.... He missed me by inches! A combination of his hard braking and me speeding up and going to the shoulder saved the day.
Here's the rub.... He was now "cornered" as I returned back into the right lane from the shoulder. He had the audacity to do that stupid Autobahn head lamp blink! The driver of the suv right next to me, enraged with these antics, now elected to drive perfectly in my rear-quarter to "lock" the Porsche in the right lane, which I was not comfortable with. The Porsche once again braked hard to leave the trap and rejoined the left lanes which were now free and clear!
If he had simply waited for the left-lanes to clear, none of this would have happened!
I think sometimes people have a perception that somebody is blocking the left lane when in actuality, they are passing - just not at the rate the road-rager requires.
If you constantly and chronically complain about "left-lane campers", YOU may be the problem, not them.
Whoever the Porsche driver was on the inner-loop Northwest in Baltimore.... I don't think you have long to live, and unfortunately I fear you're going to take an innocent victim with you someday.
Oh no, that doesn't make them reasonable. AZ has a default maximum of 65, unless a traffic study is done. I drive a road that is almost exactly the same as a road 20 miles to the east that is 75, but the one I drive is 65. The difference? The highway I drive was built more recently and is not maintained as well as the one to the east. Specifically because they lack the funding to do so (they've said so). They don't have the funding to do a traffic study to tell me and 95% of the drivers and the police on the road know, that 75 is reasonable.
Another example is within my city. One road that has two lanes in each direction is 45 MPH. Then it randomly drops to 35 MPH 4 miles later. Go south 5 miles and another road that is EXACTLY the same has a 35 MPH SL the whole length.
Another example is also within the city. The main street goes from 45 to 35 for no reason. None whatsoever. There are no changes in grade, landscaping, amount of traffic lights, etc.
Not around here. We seem to have a group of people that feel it's their duty to enforce the laws, so they have taken to creating a blockade whenever possible. For miles I sit in a line of bumper to bumper cars that is over 1 mile long going under the speed limit in the left and right lanes.