Inconsiderate Drivers (share your stories, etc.)

tallman1

So I'm guessing that bad guys are not going to buy GM with OnStar. It could work AGAINST the owner too.

euphonium

"Big Brother deters Bad Behavior"

ny540i6

Drove back from MA with a couple from Europe the other day - (Germany and Holland). Trip was about 250 miles, and we got to talking about driving.

Their perception was that in the US driving is more haphazard... no lane discipline, erratic speeds etc, when compared to what they are used to in Europe.

Soooo, I'd like to ask about others' perceptions, and I hope we can do it without the whole "It's my right to drive as fast/slow/in between as I want in whichever lane I want" trip.

Do you feel that we are inherently safer on the roads, are you comfortable with your own skill, do you feel that driver training does anything for our young people.... those kinda questions.

As an example, Mr. 16 just got his driver's license, and I am not happy. To put it bluntly, the kid can't drive! He had driver's ed. at school, I paid for a few sessions with a driving school, and I did a lot of seat time with him, along with conversations about driving theory... however, the hand/eye coordination is not there yet, and I am concerned.

I plan taking him to a real driving school, something like Barber, Bondurant, or the equivalent, and (as much as it will increase my stress level in the short term, I'll be teaching him to drive a stick.

What other thoughts are out there?

imidazol97

I'd recommend just giving minimum seat time and explaining how as a good driver your are always looking for escape paths and always assuming other cars may do something wrong to put you in danger and what you would do.

You might check into your insurance company and see if they have some plan for additional driver's ed. Check with your local AAA.

I believe there's a maturation level that still is developing at 16. Closer to 17 is a more suitable time for freedom, lone driving behind the wheel. I've seen too many bad drivng decisions around the school parking lot.

ny540i6

I agree with these basics, however I also believe that there is value to what I call "active defense". So, as an example, every winter I take myself out to the biggest snow covered empty lot I can find and deliberately drive to induce skids, deliberately shut off all the electronics I can, so I can practice spins and recovery etc. Fun? Yes. But it also reaffirms my "muscle memory", and it might just save someone's life someday.

I'd like the kid to experience what happens when you brake on a slick surface, and nothing happens, or to really learn that hitting the brake, while instinctive, is not always the best move, or that three thousand plus pounds is a big deal when moving, or that... well, you get the idea.

imidazol97

I get that practice on a mild level each time we get a snow, especially the early snows in Nov/Dec. I see you are in New York.

I still think there's a defensive part to driving of not going so fast that the other person's actions or the unexpected event makes you need to use the full evasive action. I found myself cringing as my almost 16-year old ran too fast into situations where I'm already looking for the 'out.'

snakeweasel

however, the hand/eye coordination is not there yet, and I am concerned.

Unfortunately hand/eye coordination can only come with time and experience.

The driving school is a good ideal but nothing will replace actual experience.

ruking1

Some of it is truly, "When in Rome, do what the Romans do." Truly, perceptions play a large part. If you look at the statistics for European and USA, they indicated the accident, injury and fatality rates are roughly the same. So much for the superiority of either "system". So for example, a European who drives here quickly adapts to the ... "It's my right to drive as fast/slow/in between as I want in whichever lane I want" trip"... The US driver who typifies the ..."It's my right to drive as fast/slow/in between as I want in whichever lane I want" trip"... who drives in Europe quickly adapts to lane discipline, smooth high speeds, etc. Very few English folks who drive here drive on the left, and very few American folks who drive in the UK drive on the right. Very few Europeans get speeding tickets in the USA for 120 plus. Very few US drivers get impeding traffic @ 65 mph in Europe.

As for Mr. 16 year old, it truly might be how a boy is wired as opposed to a girl. Another is the type of hormones that run through each. A 16 year old boy is immortal in his own mind. Truly most are over the problem in three years or so, or that is what the IIHS statistics indicate, as the insurance tends to cost way less at that point.

I sent both my daughter's to a Bob Bondurant type school, with app 1 year's driving experience under their belts. The instructors ask each student why they are there and what they hope to get out of the course. It is amazing to hear how many (young) folks either got speeding tickets, totalled brand new cars, other accidents, this is for both boys and girls.

ny540i6

Honestly, when I took him for the road test I was pretty sure that he would fail, and kinda hoped that he would - he needed to be taken down a peg or two. I spoke to the instructor, who told me that he expected him to pass, and that unless he did something totally ridiculous, once basic skills (Staying between the lines? LOLOL) were demonstrated, he was in good shape.

So now the kid has a license, and is not allowed to drive without an adult.

Fun for all lol.

snakeweasel

So now the kid has a license, and is not allowed to drive without an adult.

When I was learning to crash drive cars that was called a learners permit.

ny540i6

Snake, no, he is legal - I mean I don't allow it.

snakeweasel

Oh ok, Just that these days there are lots of restrictions on new drivers.

qbrozen

I've never been to Europe, but I could not agree more with your visitors. I find the lack of smooth and attentive driving deplorable. My wife and I both constantly complain about those who do not "stay right, pass left" and/or vary their speed greatly. And you can't drive 5 miles without running into such a person.

nonjth13

No offense, but if your son wasn't ready why did you let him take the road test? Both of mine were required by me to have a year with a learner's permit before they were permitted to get a license. By all means go to a driving school. My son and I went to Mid- Ohio school several years ago and both took the same course. It was worth the $. My daughter is next. One of the reasons that Americans are generally sub-standard drivers compared to Europeans is that the licensing procedures in this country are a joke.

ruking1

This might be a small thing, but 40 years ago when I got my drivers license, I had to parallel park between two parked cars (or if there were no parked cars the examiner placed cones in your car to simulate between two parked cars). Cars were (sotp) Escalade sized) Stick shift transmissions were much more prevalent in those days and it was not uncommon for the examiner to require parallel parking on a hill, face up or face down. If you touched either cars bumper (in front or behind) it was an automatic disqualification (aka,flunk)

Fast forward, today parking is pulling into and out of a diagonal parking space.

andre1969

Fast forward, today parking is pulling into and out of a diagonal parking space.

Have the driving tests really gotten that lax? I remember when I took mine back in 1987, it was on a close course at the DMV. Basically you just had to stay on your side of the line, obey all the signs they had up, do a 3-point turn in a 30-foot box (you could actually make it as many points as you wanted, as long as you didn't hit anything, and did it within a certain amount of time), and parallel park in a 6x25 foot space.

I don't think I've ever, in my life, seen a parallel parking spot that's 6x25 feet!

ruking1

Yes, but the information is app 3 years old as that was when my youngest daughter had to take her license test.

"...I don't think I've ever, in my life, seen a parallel parking spot that's 6x25 feet!"...

Yeah I think they did that for the so called challenged... (legally blind) :shades:

My Toyota Landcruiser is 188 in long, that converts to 15.66666666..... ft. I guess those sixes are extra long.

ny540i6

I let him take the road test because I wanted to have a non-biased allegedly professional assessment of his driving ability. Also, as I said in the post, I assumed (wrongly) that he would fail, putting him in a more conducive to learning frame of mind. I also said that it does not significantly change anything, since he is not allowed to drive solo.

210delray

My advice is more akin to imidazol's; that is, forget the "advanced" driving schools (I know this is heresy to some). I attended Autoweek's Teen Driver Safety Summit in late August in the Detroit suburbs. They provided an afternoon's worth of skid control, hard braking, and shoulder recovery for the attendees.

It was interesting to be able to experience skids and learn how to correct them (although I pretty much knew what to do from when we had something called "snow" back in the old days).

What amazed me was how hard it was to get the cars to skid in the first place, and this was on pavement liberally sprayed with soapy water. This confirms why in almost 40 years of driving, I've never skidded on dry or even wet pavement except briefly in a straight line for making hard stops. And I can probably count on one hand the number of times I've had to swerve sharply into another lane or partway off the road.

Imid is right in that it's by learning to pay attention to your surroundings, drive at a prudent speed for conditions, anticipate what other drivers may or may not do, and act accordingly. If you drive in this manner, chances are you won't have to make an emergency maneuver in the first place other than a little hard braking.

As a parent, you're in the ideal position to give your son as much experience behind the wheel with you at his side. It's only through repetition that the above skills will be learned, and one day's worth of "advanced driving school" won't do the trick.

Now it wouldn't hurt to show him how to handle skids, but this should be icing on the cake, and you'll have to wait until there's snow or ice on the ground to do it safely at low speeds in a large empty parking lot (assuming the rent-a-cops won't shoo you away).

ruking1

While classes might be different, the one my daughters went really stressed the visual dynamics. Indeed the principle was, as goes the visual, so goes the car (good and bad). So unless a so called new driver had quite a bit of visual instruction and practice, snow time etc, it might be a stretch to stamp him/her fit for duty, with a proviso that since they probably will not have to do a skid, fast lane change, or emergency braking, they are ok. Indeed part of the visual, vehicle, muscle, memory is the correction of the instructors, in an as safe an environment as possible.

ny540i6

Um.... don't tell me my job as a parent.

Now that that is out of the way, I appreciate your opinions, though I don't agree with all of them. I spent a few years driving a tow truck (back when it was called "chasing"), and I can tell you that there are lots of people out there who are not as skilled as you - people skid, a whole lot of the time. For this reason I don't see learning what to do when you lose traction on a snowy/icy road as "icing on the cake"

I am not questioning the value of prudence etc... I am saying that it is unrealistic to expect a 16, 17, 18 year old to be all that prudent, especially when linked to inexperience.

I expect that the kid will do dumb things. Why? Because I was a kid once, and did dumb things. I'd like to work on helping him to understand that some of these things are dumb, so he does not do them, and also to give him some of the skills, in a safe environment, to recover when (not if) the bad thing happens.

210delray

Okay, I edited out the preachy part, but I simply meant that parents are best suited to giving their children the proper preparation and using their best judgment as to when the child is ready to drive solo. Who else generally cares more about the child than a parent?

Skid recovery on snow or ice is something that should be taught, but I'm simply saying it's not as important as scanning the roadway/roadside all around, anticipating others' actions, and driving at a safe speed. The more time you spend with your son (and tell him about the "dumb" things you did at his age), the more experience he will gain -- safely -- because you're there.

It's almost every day now when my wife or I drive in traffic that we run into a situation that would provide a good "teachable moment" for a child: people suddenly pulling out of side streets without yielding, people backing out of parking spaces without looking, people weaving part way out of their lanes with the inevitable cell phone glued to their ear, etc. These are far more likely to happen than getting sideways in a skid (assuming no snow or ice on the road).

My wife and I raised 2 sons, now in their late 20s beyond the most dangerous years for driving, so we've been in your shoes.

imidazol97

Agree.

The good thing is snow is coming here in a couple months and the new driver will get some skid chances in a large church parking lot.

davethecarnut

Umm...yeah, you have to be the DAD....not the buddy. If your son sucks at driving, tell him he sucks. Then show him what he is doing wrong, then show him the correct way of doing it. Don't think a teacher will do it for you. Let him know you were his age. Tell him the dumb things you did. Besides, you don't want him being the subject of this forum any time soon, do you?

ny540i6

A "buddy" does not forbid the kid from driving unsupervised, nor does a buddy ground the kid for failure to follow directions on the road.

Karen_S

A newspaper reporter is seeking interviews with Southern California residents who are members of either the Boomer or Gen Y generations to talk about their first cars. In other words, if you were born between 1946 and 1964 or between 1976 and 2000, we want to hear from you. Please respond to jfallon@edmunds.com no later than Wednesday, November 7, 2007, and provide your daytime contact info and a few words about your first car.


A newspaper reporter wants to talk with Southern California residents who have comments and/or anecdotes about the area’s car culture. Please respond to jfallon@edmunds.com no later than Wednesday, November 7, 2007, and provide your daytime contact info and a few words about your first car.

nonjth13

Yeah, I took my driver's test in a snowstorm in Syracuse NY in 1963 and what you say is true. However, parking skills are not what are necessary when driving at speed. I spent a lot of time with my kids having them tell me rapid fire what the color of the fourth car up the road was and other awareness tests while they were passengers and again when they began to drive. Driving schools, while not perfect,at least present an opportunity to feel what a car is like when traction is lost. I was the fortunate owner of perhaps the only 1958 Karmann Ghia with shoulder harness and headrests put on by my obsessive older brother. An episode of trailing throttle oversteer resulted in me sliding down the road on the roof. The 40th anniversary of what could have been my funeral was last week. Thanks, big brother.

ruking1

..."However, parking skills are not what are necessary when driving at speed"...

Evidently the law disagrees (thank God) with Brittany Spears wacking a parked Mercedes and driving off. She probably would agree with the above quote!? WELL!!?? Not like it wasn't documented by enough photographers?

nonjth13

And running into a parked car has exactly what to do with parking a car? And parking a car has exactly what to do with responding to an emergency situation while doing 70 mph on a crowded highway covered with snow or slush? Around here you can get a driver's license without ever going over 30 mph. You can't do that in Europe where some of the drivers may be insane but, at least, they know how to drive.

ruking1

"And parking a car has exactly what to do with responding to an emergency situation while doing 70 mph on a crowded highway covered with snow or slush?..."

Nothing, unless you are THAT cop responding to an emergency situation at 70 mpg in the snow sluch or ice, and then I would question the cops sanity in going that speed in a crowd.

Law, financial, civil and criminal responsibility for starters!!?? You really do not have to go over 2 mph to successfully kill some one with a motor vehicle!

The operational "range" of successful motor vehicle operations from a macro perspective!!?

euphonium

the most inconsiderate idiots are on I 5 from Oregon driving like skiers coming home from the mountain. Not a state patrolman until you get to the game.

After the game, they drive South again on I 5 sloshed from the booze they drank at the stadium with their flags showing "12" flying in the breeze and rain.

I used to think the most dangerous road was six miles away from a departing ferry in 5 minutes.

snapcracklepop

I have to agree with you to some extent. I was enrolled in an intense driving school when I was 15 and while I learned a few valuable lessons, I dont think anything can prepare you except for real life driving experience. I had a number of fender-benders, unfortunately, until I learned from my mistakes. It just takes time and more exposure to traffic conditions.

fintail

The Caddy that zigs

british_rover

Wow if you are caught speeding that much in VA you probably get the chair.

snakeweasel

Here you would just lose your license.

Now that you reminded me I know someone who once got nabbed for doing over 100 MPH over the limit.

He lost his license and his job over it.

oldfarmer50

Here in the People's Republic of New York you would lose your license and then they would begin the process of extracting everything of value from your pocket.

There would be the fine of course, then the surcharge and the "safety assessment" for 3 years.

If you got your license back you would also have to pay a "fee" to lift the suspension.

I also believe that if you do over 100mph numerous liberal groups will protest in front of your house and call you names. (that might just be in New York City though)

snakeweasel

The article states that she didn't know that she was going so fast, now I shouldn't say this but as someone who has driven that fast its hard not to notice.

oldfarmer50

"...she didn't know that she was going that fast..."

The fastest I ever traveled in a car was 134mph in a 1967 former state police car. Afterwards, I knew how fast I was going because I had to change my underwear.

british_rover

In VA they would take you to jail right away no passing go no collecting 200 dollars.

snakeweasel

Even if you had this?

stever

I drove up and down Virginia last week and my sister barely got her Forester over the speed limit on the Interstate (nor did I when I took a driving shift). That "civil remedial fee" for Virginia residents really has her attention, not that she speeds anyway. I'm guessing it's a big revenue generator because we saw lots of cops between Front Royal and Bristol.

But with wall to wall semis crowding the roads, I didn't feel any safer knowing that the speeders were good and clamped down.

fintail

Is that the new FOP emblem?

fintail

I'd expect that Catera 6 to be singing pretty loudly by that speed.

I've done about 125 on a deserted highway in my E55...the biggest thing to notice was scenery passing faster. The car just seemed to say "and???"

oldfarmer50

"...The car just seemed to say "and"?..."

I remember once as a kid being with a group of friends who decided "Let's drive to Canada" (200 miles away).

We hopped in one guy's 1969 Ford and off we went at full throttle (110mph). After about 100 miles we got bored with the idea and turned around again at full speed.

About 10 miles from home we had literly "driven the wheels off" and the tires started to disintegrate. We were towed the rest of the way.

Funny thing, in that 200 mile round trip we never saw even one cop. I guess the angels look out for dumb teen-agers.

snakeweasel

Yeah I had the Caddy up to that, maybe a bit over, on a flat straight empty road in central IL. While the car and engine seemed to say "and?" there still was a massive sensation of speed.

I once had the Elantra up to 100-110 and strangly enough the sensation of speed really wasn't there (felt more like 80-85) but you could tell that we were near the engines limit.

fintail

Bias ply? I suppose those aren't made for extreme conditions.

I bet a 69 Ford at 110 gets about 3 mpg.

fintail

My speed trial was on a fairly wide road, so it might have been deceptive. But, I figure Germans can do that every day if they are in the right spot...so it can't be too bad. I know the car will hit the governor (155) with little fanfare.

Ha, that reminds me of the one time I got the fintail to 100 - you could certainly tell the car was wound up and was no more than 10mph or so from top end. Later that day the car got revenge for that abuse by breaking a transmission cooling line and stranding me 60 miles from home on a cold Saturday night in February. What great memories...

snakeweasel

I think the governor of the Caddy is about 155 too and since it has a Corvette engine in it I am sure it will hit it with no problems at all.

But I did my runs on smaller roads in farm country where the sensation of speed is greater.

imidazol97

>and the tires started to disintegrate

There were some Firestone tires in the 70s? that chunked out pieces. May have been called "500s." Is that what happened to them?

snakeweasel

They could have been retreads too, they have a nasty habit of doing that.