>If one wanted to even maintain just the 65 SL that is posted, he would find himself constantly moving from lane to lane. He would pass a group of trucks, move over only to have to move back over a couple minutes later to pass again. ...So here is what I practice and it has worked well for me. The flow of traffic generally flows at 70 MPH in the left lane. ... When I notice a car coming up behind me that I can tell for sure is going to want to get past, I move over as soon as it is possible. I won't squeeze between to two vehicles (especially trucks) in the right lane going slower than I am and cut into my safety zone, nor will I cut off a big rig, but will give a good clearance before I move over.
That's exactly what I try to do.
The problem is that a few want to drive far above the speed limit and expect everyone to get out of their left lane. That's based on the philosophy that slower traffic should get right. However, most of those few speeders don't get over into the right lane in between other traffic. Instead, they just stay in their left lane and use it all the time instead of using it only for passing--it becomes their personal race track. I find jumping in and out of the right lane a danger point especially when the traffic involves lots of trucks.
That minimum speed limit is a wonderful idea. Thank you for informing me of that as my wife and I will be coming to visit our son's family in Rockford Ill and I of course, will be the drivier from OHare.
I think CA could learn from the minimum speed limit of Ill, by having one here in Disneyland, er CA. And Ruking1 you are soooo right as to the big rigs. A slooooow moving truck in the fast, next to the fast lane can be extremely frustrating, and can cause a t/c because the driver behind the big rig gets upset, and "takes a chance". Real dangerous.
Hope all have a peaceful and safe SAT/Sun. Good luck to all and stay safe.
I also think with the emphasis on various rights, "who flung dung," etc. and the peripheral issues, we might lose focus on the real reasons for the" Keep Right Except to Pass". It takes (even under the BEST circumstances) app 12 seconds to pass. If you are passing on a two lane road yours and the on coming cars lives can depend on how (well) you judge this. ( in time and distance) With someone in the passing lane, guess what? One CAN"T pass !!!! (the legal definition of course) Another issue : it is positively DANGEROUS to run alongside another car, especially for any distance. This is one reason why street drag racing is OUTLAWED.
On the example I gave about, the two trucks with one trying to pass, (so I don't ruin it for people) the next time you see that, count the seconds it takes for the truck to complete its pass. Share with us your observations/ reports !!!!!!
As have said all along, the use of E flashers is the "get out of jail free" procedure that trumps the MSL, in the absolute remotest of circumstances, the HP wants to make an isue thereof.
The thing about Kansas is that they are publicizing their new minimum speed law. If they can couple that with a wave of enforcement, they may be able to educate their drivers on the evils of left lane camping.
But judging how the other states with minimum speed laws have fared, it'll probably be widely ignored there too.
If they can couple that with a wave of enforcement, they may be able to educate their drivers on the evils of left lane camping.
Fine and dandy as long as the couple it with a wave of enforcement of speed laws.
My concern in this discussion is the apparent attitude that LLC is so bad but speeding is not. There seems to be with some one law should be enforced so that they can continue to break another law.
Again if someone is in the left lane doing at least SL then there is little to complain about.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Maybe because speed limits are pretty much arbitrary numbers set by overpaid underworked public sector sucks, often in the name of money masquerading as safety?
When most LEOs don't practice strict enforcement unless in a regressive quota system, you know the laws aren't defendable. The guys who are paid to uphold the law set by the chosen few to control the many, the guys who see carnage on the roads every day, they don't even hold people to the exact limit. They know traffic can usually move at least 10% faster with no harm done. But some wannabe traffic enforcement deputies are unable to grasp the concept of the "flow of traffic".
The point of "breaking the law" is moot. It doesn't matter. Unjust and undefendable laws should not be observed. Laws are not just simply because they are laws. This is a nation founded in opposition to unjust laws, remember.
Just keep right if you aren't able to continue with the flow of traffic. If LLCs want to be cops, they need to go apply for a job - there are always openings, and apparently the physicals aren't as difficult to pass as in the past :shades:
Fine and dandy as long as the couple it with a wave of enforcement of speed laws.
I have no complaints about that at all. IMHO, it is more about educating drivers who are oblivious about the laws. Everyone knows about speeding laws and I see far more cars that get pulled over for speeding than I see for driving in the left lane.
It seems that many do not know about keeping right. And I read about and talk to others who think that they have a right to enforce the SL by driving in the left lane. That presents a real danger because of the road ragers out there. (No, I'm not one of them!)
So go ahead and nail the speeders. There is no question that excessive speed is dangerous. But leave that to the ones who write the tickets. And, of course, keep right except to pass.
Maybe because speed limits are pretty much arbitrary numbers set by overpaid underworked public sector sucks, often in the name of money masquerading as safety?
I think you're focusing on the wrong group.
Q. How should speed limits be set?
A. Traffic engineers maintain that speed limits should be established according to the 85th percentile of free flowing traffic. This means the limit should be set at a level at or under which 85 percent of people are driving. Numerous studies have shown that the 85th percentile is the safest possible level at which to set a speed limit.
There's a whole blurb at the link from the National Motorists Association, an outfit that promotes higher speed limits, while emphasizing that the numbers aren't arbitrary but supportable by studies. Speed Limits
You'll like this one too from the same outfit - it specifically says that people aren't sheep.
"Periodic traffic engineering studies are required on all roadways - even on roadways without speed limits. The measurement of speed in a traffic engineering study is only one component of an extremely important periodic safety evaluation of a particular section of highway. When this information is combined with the accident history for that section of highway the engineer has the information needed to determine what mitigation efforts may be required to address the identified safety hazards and flow management issues and needs for that section of roadway." link
The engineers setting the limits aren't being arbitrary, but often the public is, and they're the ones lobbying for lower limits, not the folks responsible for figuring out what the number should be.
I think also the SAFEST roads (as documented by the NHTSA) by way of (VMT) "Vehicle miles Traveled", per 100 M miles) (pg 9/129 if you need to see it written in tables) What is probably not too obvious, the NON rural highways with the HIGHEST (85th percentile) speeds are THE safest.
Now on the other hand you might have a rural highway that is not "well" travelled and seemingly have FEW accidents but oxymoronically using that metric 100M VMT is more than deadly.
Another is while this is SELDOM published, the majority of fatalities (75% and above) happen at speeds of 45 mph and under !!! I think most folks can see why this is seldom published :confuse: :lemon:
Who am I going after that is wrong? I don't see "traffic engineers" coming out in public defense of current limits, it is usually city/county/state/federal suits who make way too much money and who give virtually nothing in return for it. Every time a new low limit or some moneymaking camera scheme is implemented, you will see some upper management type making a public statement reassuring the sheeple that it is about "safety" and not money...and from what I can read here, quite a few of the sheeple continue to eat it up. I also don't see any real evidence that these "engineers" actually set the limits.
How valid is the "85th percentile" on roads that are admittedly underposted, given that many people will drive at an underposted speed simply because they have been taught to defer and conform to any law, now matter how mindless or unproductive it may be? I don't see how they can determine it when the raw data points are tainted to begin with.
If it was all about logic, the mindless puritans who have corrupted this society so deeply wouldn't have any say in how fast people can drive at all. The fact that people who lack any credibility are allowed to have total influence in this realm is nothing but criminal. Like the old movie quote says, "what the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public".
I still think it says a lot that most LEOs will give a ca. 10mph cushion, unless they are bound to quotas (which we all know exist in many locations).
All I see are a bunch of unsubstantiated disparaging comments. Have you ever even met a traffic engineer in your life? There are tons of 85th percentile studies - have you found evidence to the contrary? Even the pro-faster speed limit outfit I linked to relies on them.
No dear sir, even if people in the left lane are driving the maximum speed limit there is still A LOT to complain about. Clearly you do not understand the importance of the drive right pass left rule.
The left lane is meant to be used for passing only, and there should be no one driving there at ALL, regardless of the speed they choose to observe. That is why it is for PASSING ONLY. If i want to take my car to 160MPH in the left lane, then I should be able to do so, and the reason for my action is of NO Concern to YOU. If i am doing something against the law, the police will take care of it, and i will lose my liscence.
Recently my old buddy's family and I decided to take a little trip to one of the beaches in our area. His grandfather had a stroke, and we needed to rush him to the hospital. Some prick in front of us decided to enforce the speed limit on the highway we were traveling (55 MPH). The man died en route to the hospital. The doctors said if we got him there earlier he had a much better chance of survival.
I would like to take this time to thank all uneducated drivers who take the law into their own hands and make driving dangerous for everyone.
Drive right pass left is enforced in nearly every western country, and the fines for not following it are huge. Go ahead and try your theory in germany, where they used to have 3000 deutschmark fine (before the euro) for the violators of this rule.
I personally drive 65 MPH MAXIMUM, but i always stay in the first or second lanes, because unlike most drivers in this fine country, i realize that there could be an emergency happening on the road at any second, and that enforcing the speed limit is the job of the POLICE. :mad:
Everyone knows about speeding laws and I see far more cars that get pulled over for speeding than I see for driving in the left lane.
I took a 3,700+ mile trip out west last month and I saw exactly one more car pulled over for speeding than I saw being pulled over for driving in the left lane.
In other words I only saw one car pulled over at all.
Now all of this begs the question of if you pass a car pulled over how do you know why he was pulled over?
It seems that many do not know about keeping right.
It is also apparent that many do not know about speed limits.
There is no question that excessive speed is dangerous. But leave that to the ones who write the tickets.
I am not advocating staying in the left lane. My contention is those who complain about LLCers while claiming the right to speed.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
>and there should be no one driving there at ALL, regardless of the speed they choose to observe.
That means the people doing 90 in the left hand lane move into the right lane every time they are past the car in the right hand lane--the left hand lane is NOT for driving... right? OTOH most speeders stay in the left hand lane rather than moving into the right hand lane between passing cars.
>Recently my old buddy's family and I decided to take a little trip to one of the beaches in our area. His grandfather had a stroke, and we needed to rush him to the hospital. Some prick in front of us decided to enforce the speed limit on the highway we were traveling (55 MPH).
The obvious error you made is that if there were a medical emergency you should have called the authorities, 911, and they use an EMS squad to move through traffic--they have red lights and sirens and state laws that allow them to drive carefully but at a higher speed than the limit in some cases to expedite removal to a hospital.
Maybe because speed limits are pretty much arbitrary numbers
Just because you disagree with them doesn't make them arbitrary.
you know the laws aren't defendable.
They are laws that are put on the books by legally elected legislators. Just because you disagree with them doesn't make the undefendable.
The point of "breaking the law" is moot. It doesn't matter.
Then it doesn't matter if someone is a LLC, is it? See it applies all around doesn't it? It does matter that its the law as you seem to believe that some people have to obey certain laws but you don't.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
A false logic there as its not a comparison of apples to apples. In other words you are not comparing like roads. Sure high speed roads have less accidents in a miles traveled measurement, but they are safer by the design not by the speed (hence the allowance for the speed). Interstates that have high rates of speeds are relatively straight, long sight lines, wide shoulders, and open areas along side the roads. Roads with lower speed limits tend to be narrower, less room to the sides, more turns and shorter lines of sights.
In other words an interstate in rural Kansas is safer than a winding mountain road in Colorado due to design and conditions not speed.
Another is while this is SELDOM published, the majority of fatalities (75% and above) happen at speeds of 45 mph and under !!!
First I would like to see a link for that, secondly its a meaningless statistic without knowing what percentage of driving is below 45MPH.
Many studies show that chances of getting into a fatal accident increase as speed increases.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Clearly you do not understand the importance of the drive right pass left rule.
Oh I understand it, I also understand the importance of the speed limit rule.
If i want to take my car to 160MPH in the left lane, then I should be able to do so,
No you should not be able to, should be able to to up to speed limit. If you go faster than that you are no better than the LLC that you are complaining about.
That is my main contention here, People on their high horses preaching how bad it is to stay in the left lane but defend speeding. There is a saying in the Bible that says that you should take the plank out of your eye before trying to take the sliver out of someone elses eye.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Ah yeah, I'm bad....it's a sin to call out the public sector for its mistakes. They have it pretty rough compared to the rest of us.
Heck, I see no proof that traffic engineers exist, given the second world state of roadways in this country.
It's not my job to find evidence to the contrary, I am not the one making the claims. I am the one receiving the claims, and I am asking for them to be substantiated. I know, it's a lot to ask from those who are allowed to make the rules.
I question the validity of data in such studies, when the limits are admittedly too low due to the fraidy-cats to begin with.
I see no proof that they are not arbitrary. Random limits, random changes, random enforcement. Nobody can put any rhyme or reason to these policies. Seems kind of...how does one say it...arbitrary.
In a nation where special interests control all legislation and all elections, the actions of "legally elected legislators" are not good in and of themselves.
If you want to defend them, go for it. They've done nothing right in the past 100+ years...maybe they'll change that soon. I won't hold my breath.
I see a lot more whining in this world about someone going 10 over in the left lane than someone going 10 under. All laws are not equal. Just keep to the right lane and let real drivers be on their way.
Sometimes there is a significant delay for the authorities to arrive to transport a sticken person. If my choice was to wait 20 minutes for someone to maybe arrive, or get going now...the latter does sound more appealing.
..."In other words an interstate in rural Kansas is safer than a winding mountain road in Colorado due to design and conditions not speed. "...
You are incorrect on all counts. First off it is safety AS measured. So this is not to say what you say is not true but it can be highly misleading. Speed per say is not the "driving" factor.
"The definition of speeding is broad and the determination of whether speeding was involved in a fatal crash is often based on the judgment of the investigating law enforcement officer. Even if speeding is listed as a contributing factor in a crash, it may not have been the causative factor."...link title
So in your example, it could be either way.
"In 2003, 86 percent of speeding-related fatalities occurred on roads that were not Interstate highways. The speeding-related fatality rate per vehicle mile traveled is highest on local and collector roads where the lowest speed limits are posted, presenting additionalproblems."...link title
"In 1994, 88 percent of speed-related fatalities occurred on roads that were not Interstate highways. Of all speed-related fatalities, 94 percent occurred on roads with a posted speed limit of 55 miles per hour or less."... ..."“Only 12 percent of speed-related fatalities occuron Interstate highways.” link title
"Highway fatalities are a major epidemic in this country; and most occur on rural roads involving rural residents. Only one-fifth of the Nation’s population lives in rural areas, yet two-fifths of the vehicle miles traveled and three-fifths of all fatal crashes occur there"....link title
So for example, if you care to find out more rather than to express doubt, the NHTSA is THE place to search. Here is another to get you started on the "ROAD" INFLUENCE OF ROAD CHARACTERISTICS ON TRAFFIC SAFETY
Wholly Cow! You're SO right about this stuff! As a rider of motorcycles for over 50 years, I can verify every assertion that you make. Even SOTT readers will agree about the mental paralysis being experienced by so many today (greenbaumed?).
Liberty has little if anything to do with ability to drive at a given speed, but experience and training has EVERYTHING to do with better driving at ANY speed. I reckon that this means a process of "mass punishment" has been approved as a means of extricating the biggest monetary punishment against everyone, regardless of their ability, skill, or patent proclivity for stupid acts behind the wheel or handlebar is concerned.
I am not an inconoclast, but I do believe in Liberty as viewed by our Founders. The two or three States left in the Union that still value this attitude are about 47 or 48 too few. I think that Laura would agree.
Why do I drive a tiny little tiddler like the Smart? Because I like the MPG's it delivers. Because I like how little room it takes in my garage. Because this gives me room to park my Suzuki Bandit 1255.
May I say that if you EVER do me dirt while I'm driving my High MPG Smart, expect to deal with me while I'm riding my superbike. How about a few caved-in door panels or fenders?
I once had a guy on a bike make threatening motions toward me while I was driving my pickup. Seems he didn't take it well when I honked at him instead of slowing down to let him cut in front of me. I had to laugh.
Dude it's just you and the asphalt out there. Do you really want to attack someone who is sheathed in a steel cocoon? Suicidal! :sick:
Cincinnati traffic held up last night on I75 near downtown by motorcyclist who had been doing frequent lane changes with no signals most likely so he could continue speeding. He miscalculated and hit a semi trailer. No helmet. Darwin at work.
"...My contention is those who complain about LLCers while claiming the right to speed..."
When you go to the zoo and see a sign that says: "Don't stand next to the monkey cage, they like to throw poo", do you stand there anyway? It doesn't matter to the monkey if you have a "right" to be there, you're going to get the poo.
Like it or not there are people who get annoyed when others get in their way. They tend to be aggressive and speeders. If you block them they may do foolish things to get around you.
The other day I watched a Land Rover come up behind another car in the left lane which was doing about 70 in a 65 zone. The LR rode the other cars' bumper and turned on his flashers (I'm sure he was flashing his lights too). When the other car couldn't get out of his way fast enough the LR took the left shoulder and passed at at least 90. About a mile further I just caught him in my view as he swerved across three lanes and took the exit at high speed....right into the race track.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
I bet the fully loaded tractor trailer hardly felt the motorcycle slam into it in post #13987 ? Hopefully the motorcycle drivers insurance and estate will pay for the damages to the tractor trailer rig.
Normally motorcycle drivers are way under insured. That is another reason why I don't like them sharing/splitting lanes with me. To state the obvious, serious injury to death can literally be 6 inches and a split second away.
I was stuck in bumper-to-bumper traffic on I-95 coming home from Kings Dominion, near Richmond VA. I saw a little poetic justice done to someone on a motorcycle. Dude goes flying past on the median, on that little strip between the fast lane and the inner guardrail. It was littered with shreds of tractor trailer tires and a wide variety of other debris.
About a mile up the road, we caught up to him. He was stopped, and looked like he was trying to pull a chunk of something that got wedged in his rear wheel.
You mean I shouldn't be scared of murdercycle threats when driving ca. 3800 lbs of German steel with 10 airbags and a hood ornament I can use as a gunsight? :shades:
Liberty as viewed by the founding fathers is long gone. A globalized world doesn't allow it.
Not a bad thought though, maybe the low skill of drivers in this part of the world is intentional - marginal teaching, to keep justification for low limits, and keep the money rolling in to irresponsible municipalities who are unable to do any other financial planning.
Looks like minivans are the way to go. No one steals them.
Actually, there is a niche market for them. A few years back, my coworker's 2001 Grand Caravan was stolen from the parking lot at her condo. The perps took it out to the country, stopped in the middle of the road, and dumped EVERYTHING...two rear row seats, all her personal belongings, all of it, in the middle of the street. The next morning, someone who lived out there found her phone # in the debris and called her.
Well, a few days later, the police spotted her Caravan and gave chase. The perps took off, and ended up in a neighborhood with a cul-de-sac. They stopped, bailed out, but left it in gear, and it idled forward into a tree. I don't think they ever did get caught.
The minivan ended up being a total. The damage from hitting the tree wasn't that bad, but to steal it, they tore up the locks on both front doors, and either the sliding side door or the hatch; I can't remember which now. And the steering column was torn up from hotwiring. And in addition to the extra seats being tossed, the whole interior was torn up and muddy. The police believe her Caravan was used to jack ATV's and similar equipment from rural areas.
Nobody steals minivans for joyrides, parts, etc. However, because they're so anonymous looking, they make great hauling vehicles for burglaries and such.
My coworker drives a generic looking silver 2008 Camry CE now. So my guess is that if someone wants to pull a bank heist or some other crime where they need an anonymous looking car, they'll look her up!
While almost ALL of us can/do see and cite examples of all this stupidity, etc, etc, yada, yada, on a daily basis: It might be "interesting" to argue that all of this contributes to literally THE SAFEST accident and fatalitiy statistics in the whole time these statistics has (literally) been recorded. Motor Vehicle Traffic Crash Fatality Counts And Estimates of People Injured for 2007
Increases in 1. population 2. drivers 3 cars 4.. trips 5. overall mileage (per capital an actual 3% decrease) etc.
Lower: 1. accidents 2. fatalities 3. lower % of DUI
Further if you compare it with the European Continental figures, we are literally BETTER than they, albeit (however much).
How valid is the "85th percentile" on roads that are admittedly underposted, given that many people will drive at an underposted speed simply because they have been taught to defer and conform to any law, now matter how mindless or unproductive it may be?
Taught to conform to defer or conform to any law.....(?) So, what would you have? Children, people taught to pick and choose what law to obey or conform according to their own criteria?
If it was all about logic, the mindless puritans who have corrupted this society so deeply wouldn't have any say in how fast people can drive at all.
Great. So, would society be better off with people with high performance as well as ordinary cars doing as they please on interstates such as 100+ mph. Teen-age boys doing 70-90 on rural two-lanes?
What is such a big deal about speed per se? Driving over the limit just to get ahead of others? To save a hanful of minutes on commutes to work? Or, some kind of infantile/childish "thrill" factor?
What do I say that is incorrect? Or is any criticism of the public sector in any way taboo? If I targeted bankers or property developers or accountants, would there be a problem?
The easiest way to theft-proof a car is to put an OEM-looking "diesel" badge on the back of it.
Don't you forget, you live in a nation founded in opposition to mindless laws drafted by megalomaniacal revenuers.
"pick and choose what law to obey or conform according to their own criteria? "
Sounds like American foreign policy of the past few generations.
Define "speed" before an alarmist rant is drafted. Is 75 or 80mph really "Speed" seeing as it is acceptable in much of the rest of the developed world? Of course, most of the rest of the developed world is still outpacing the backwards American ideal.
I was stuck in bumper-to-bumper traffic on I-95 coming home from Kings Dominion, near Richmond VA
I travel from NJ to Richmond quite frequently.... coming home that traffic from Fredricksburg up to and past the bridge is the worst. If I end up that I'll hit it after 3:00 I usually end up getting off at Kings Dominion and working my way to 301 It's a little further mileage wise, but at least it moves.
Hmm, I just plotted it out on Googlemaps, and it would actually be something like two miles SHORTER to get home if we had jumped off I-95 at exit 104 (route 207) and taken that over to 301!
In the end though, it wasn't too bad. Took us about 2 hours and 15 mins to get home, which I guess isn't bad for 104 miles, once you take into account those traffic jams. I might try Route 301 sometime though, just for a change of pace. When I was a kid, we lived down just south of Waldorf from 1979-80. I used to love it down there, but now it just seems all grown up, at least along 301. It's just not the same.
"...Looks like the minivans are the way to go. No one steals them..."
Not in NY. Two Chrysler made minivans are in the top 10. And as if you needed proof that people here are crazy, the 1996 Plymouth is #8 most stolen. :confuse: :lemon:
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Comments
That's exactly what I try to do.
The problem is that a few want to drive far above the speed limit and expect everyone to get out of their left lane. That's based on the philosophy that slower traffic should get right. However, most of those few speeders don't get over into the right lane in between other traffic. Instead, they just stay in their left lane and use it all the time instead of using it only for passing--it becomes their personal race track. I find jumping in and out of the right lane a danger point especially when the traffic involves lots of trucks.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I think CA could learn from the minimum speed limit of Ill, by having one here in Disneyland, er CA. And Ruking1 you are soooo right as to the big rigs. A slooooow moving truck in the fast, next to the fast lane can be extremely frustrating, and can cause a t/c because the driver behind the big rig gets upset, and "takes a chance". Real dangerous.
Hope all have a peaceful and safe SAT/Sun. Good luck to all and stay safe.
jensad
They are not many, but the ones I do find seem to like to take things to an extreme.
On the example I gave about, the two trucks with one trying to pass, (so I don't ruin it for people) the next time you see that, count the seconds it takes for the truck to complete its pass. Share with us your observations/ reports !!!!!!
Whether they post it is another thing.
I'll bet most states do... for the interstates, at least. Putting along at 40 mph can be dangerous... in any lane.
But judging how the other states with minimum speed laws have fared, it'll probably be widely ignored there too.
Fine and dandy as long as the couple it with a wave of enforcement of speed laws.
My concern in this discussion is the apparent attitude that LLC is so bad but speeding is not. There seems to be with some one law should be enforced so that they can continue to break another law.
Again if someone is in the left lane doing at least SL then there is little to complain about.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
When most LEOs don't practice strict enforcement unless in a regressive quota system, you know the laws aren't defendable. The guys who are paid to uphold the law set by the chosen few to control the many, the guys who see carnage on the roads every day, they don't even hold people to the exact limit. They know traffic can usually move at least 10% faster with no harm done. But some wannabe traffic enforcement deputies are unable to grasp the concept of the "flow of traffic".
The point of "breaking the law" is moot. It doesn't matter. Unjust and undefendable laws should not be observed. Laws are not just simply because they are laws. This is a nation founded in opposition to unjust laws, remember.
Just keep right if you aren't able to continue with the flow of traffic. If LLCs want to be cops, they need to go apply for a job - there are always openings, and apparently the physicals aren't as difficult to pass as in the past :shades:
I have no complaints about that at all. IMHO, it is more about educating drivers who are oblivious about the laws. Everyone knows about speeding laws and I see far more cars that get pulled over for speeding than I see for driving in the left lane.
It seems that many do not know about keeping right. And I read about and talk to others who think that they have a right to enforce the SL by driving in the left lane. That presents a real danger because of the road ragers out there. (No, I'm not one of them!)
So go ahead and nail the speeders. There is no question that excessive speed is dangerous. But leave that to the ones who write the tickets. And, of course, keep right except to pass.
I was not aware of that law. Some CHP missed out on a great ticket last Jan on I 5 as we trudged by the gentleman driving in a 70 mph at 35 mph.
Good luck to all and take care.
jensad
I think you're focusing on the wrong group.
Q. How should speed limits be set?
A. Traffic engineers maintain that speed limits should be established according to the 85th percentile of free flowing traffic. This means the limit should be set at a level at or under which 85 percent of people are driving. Numerous studies have shown that the 85th percentile is the safest possible level at which to set a speed limit.
There's a whole blurb at the link from the National Motorists Association, an outfit that promotes higher speed limits, while emphasizing that the numbers aren't arbitrary but supportable by studies. Speed Limits
You'll like this one too from the same outfit - it specifically says that people aren't sheep.
"Periodic traffic engineering studies are required on all roadways - even on roadways without speed limits. The measurement of speed in a traffic engineering study is only one component of an extremely important periodic safety evaluation of a particular section of highway. When this information is combined with the accident history for that section of highway the engineer has the information needed to determine what mitigation efforts may be required to address the identified safety hazards and flow management issues and needs for that section of roadway." link
The engineers setting the limits aren't being arbitrary, but often the public is, and they're the ones lobbying for lower limits, not the folks responsible for figuring out what the number should be.
Oxymoronically or counterintuitively, some of those SAFEST HIGHWAYS might hit the news as SEEMINGLY high risk sites (being frequently mentioned) . But measured by the VMT, again it has been demonstrated to be THE SAFEST !!! Motor Vehicle Traffic Crash Fatality Counts
And Estimates of People Injured for 2007
Now on the other hand you might have a rural highway that is not "well" travelled and seemingly have FEW accidents but oxymoronically using that metric 100M VMT is more than deadly.
Another is while this is SELDOM published, the majority of fatalities (75% and above) happen at speeds of 45 mph and under !!! I think most folks can see why this is seldom published :confuse: :lemon:
How valid is the "85th percentile" on roads that are admittedly underposted, given that many people will drive at an underposted speed simply because they have been taught to defer and conform to any law, now matter how mindless or unproductive it may be? I don't see how they can determine it when the raw data points are tainted to begin with.
If it was all about logic, the mindless puritans who have corrupted this society so deeply wouldn't have any say in how fast people can drive at all. The fact that people who lack any credibility are allowed to have total influence in this realm is nothing but criminal. Like the old movie quote says, "what the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public".
I still think it says a lot that most LEOs will give a ca. 10mph cushion, unless they are bound to quotas (which we all know exist in many locations).
All I see are a bunch of unsubstantiated disparaging comments. Have you ever even met a traffic engineer in your life? There are tons of 85th percentile studies - have you found evidence to the contrary? Even the pro-faster speed limit outfit I linked to relies on them.
The left lane is meant to be used for passing only, and there should be no one driving there at ALL, regardless of the speed they choose to observe. That is why it is for PASSING ONLY. If i want to take my car to 160MPH in the left lane, then I should be able to do so, and the reason for my action is of NO Concern to YOU. If i am doing something against the law, the police will take care of it, and i will lose my liscence.
Recently my old buddy's family and I decided to take a little trip to one of the beaches in our area. His grandfather had a stroke, and we needed to rush him to the hospital. Some prick in front of us decided to enforce the speed limit on the highway we were traveling (55 MPH). The man died en route to the hospital. The doctors said if we got him there earlier he had a much better chance of survival.
I would like to take this time to thank all uneducated drivers who take the law into their own hands and make driving dangerous for everyone.
Drive right pass left is enforced in nearly every western country, and the fines for not following it are huge. Go ahead and try your theory in germany, where they used to have 3000 deutschmark fine (before the euro) for the violators of this rule.
I personally drive 65 MPH MAXIMUM, but i always stay in the first or second lanes, because unlike most drivers in this fine country, i realize that there could be an emergency happening on the road at any second, and that enforcing the speed limit is the job of the POLICE. :mad:
I took a 3,700+ mile trip out west last month and I saw exactly one more car pulled over for speeding than I saw being pulled over for driving in the left lane.
In other words I only saw one car pulled over at all.
Now all of this begs the question of if you pass a car pulled over how do you know why he was pulled over?
It seems that many do not know about keeping right.
It is also apparent that many do not know about speed limits.
There is no question that excessive speed is dangerous. But leave that to the ones who write the tickets.
I am not advocating staying in the left lane. My contention is those who complain about LLCers while claiming the right to speed.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
The mistake of your wake is everyone's concern as we catch up to your crash. :mad:
That means the people doing 90 in the left hand lane move into the right lane every time they are past the car in the right hand lane--the left hand lane is NOT for driving... right? OTOH most speeders stay in the left hand lane rather than moving into the right hand lane between passing cars.
>Recently my old buddy's family and I decided to take a little trip to one of the beaches in our area. His grandfather had a stroke, and we needed to rush him to the hospital. Some prick in front of us decided to enforce the speed limit on the highway we were traveling (55 MPH).
The obvious error you made is that if there were a medical emergency you should have called the authorities, 911, and they use an EMS squad to move through traffic--they have red lights and sirens and state laws that allow them to drive carefully but at a higher speed than the limit in some cases to expedite removal to a hospital.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Just because you disagree with them doesn't make them arbitrary.
you know the laws aren't defendable.
They are laws that are put on the books by legally elected legislators. Just because you disagree with them doesn't make the undefendable.
The point of "breaking the law" is moot. It doesn't matter.
Then it doesn't matter if someone is a LLC, is it? See it applies all around doesn't it? It does matter that its the law as you seem to believe that some people have to obey certain laws but you don't.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
A false logic there as its not a comparison of apples to apples. In other words you are not comparing like roads. Sure high speed roads have less accidents in a miles traveled measurement, but they are safer by the design not by the speed (hence the allowance for the speed). Interstates that have high rates of speeds are relatively straight, long sight lines, wide shoulders, and open areas along side the roads. Roads with lower speed limits tend to be narrower, less room to the sides, more turns and shorter lines of sights.
In other words an interstate in rural Kansas is safer than a winding mountain road in Colorado due to design and conditions not speed.
Another is while this is SELDOM published, the majority of fatalities (75% and above) happen at speeds of 45 mph and under !!!
First I would like to see a link for that, secondly its a meaningless statistic without knowing what percentage of driving is below 45MPH.
Many studies show that chances of getting into a fatal accident increase as speed increases.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Oh I understand it, I also understand the importance of the speed limit rule.
If i want to take my car to 160MPH in the left lane, then I should be able to do so,
No you should not be able to, should be able to to up to speed limit. If you go faster than that you are no better than the LLC that you are complaining about.
That is my main contention here, People on their high horses preaching how bad it is to stay in the left lane but defend speeding. There is a saying in the Bible that says that you should take the plank out of your eye before trying to take the sliver out of someone elses eye.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Heck, I see no proof that traffic engineers exist, given the second world state of roadways in this country.
It's not my job to find evidence to the contrary, I am not the one making the claims. I am the one receiving the claims, and I am asking for them to be substantiated. I know, it's a lot to ask from those who are allowed to make the rules.
I question the validity of data in such studies, when the limits are admittedly too low due to the fraidy-cats to begin with.
In a nation where special interests control all legislation and all elections, the actions of "legally elected legislators" are not good in and of themselves.
If you want to defend them, go for it. They've done nothing right in the past 100+ years...maybe they'll change that soon. I won't hold my breath.
I see a lot more whining in this world about someone going 10 over in the left lane than someone going 10 under. All laws are not equal. Just keep to the right lane and let real drivers be on their way.
Well, maybe that's a bad analogy since they all do, right?
You are incorrect on all counts. First off it is safety AS measured. So this is not to say what you say is not true but it can be highly misleading. Speed per say is not the "driving" factor.
"The definition of speeding is broad and the determination of
whether speeding was involved in a fatal crash is often based on the judgment of the
investigating law enforcement officer. Even if speeding is listed as a contributing factor in a crash, it may not have been the causative factor."...link title
So in your example, it could be either way.
"In 2003, 86 percent of speeding-related fatalities occurred on roads that were not
Interstate highways. The speeding-related fatality rate per vehicle mile traveled is highest on local and collector roads where the lowest speed limits are posted, presenting additionalproblems."...link title
"In 1994, 88 percent of speed-related fatalities occurred on roads that were
not Interstate highways. Of all speed-related fatalities, 94 percent occurred
on roads with a posted speed limit of 55 miles per hour or less."... ..."“Only 12 percent
of speed-related fatalities occuron Interstate highways.” link title
"Highway fatalities are a major epidemic in this country; and most occur on rural roads involving rural residents. Only one-fifth of the Nation’s population lives in rural areas, yet two-fifths of the vehicle miles traveled and three-fifths of all fatal crashes occur there"....link title
So for example, if you care to find out more rather than to express doubt, the NHTSA is THE place to search. Here is another to get you started on the "ROAD" INFLUENCE OF ROAD CHARACTERISTICS ON TRAFFIC SAFETY
Liberty has little if anything to do with ability to drive at a given speed, but experience and training has EVERYTHING to do with better driving at ANY speed. I reckon that this means a process of "mass punishment" has been approved as a means of extricating the biggest monetary punishment against everyone, regardless of their ability, skill, or patent proclivity for stupid acts behind the wheel or handlebar is concerned.
I am not an inconoclast, but I do believe in Liberty as viewed by our Founders. The two or three States left in the Union that still value this attitude are about 47 or 48 too few. I think that Laura would agree.
May I say that if you EVER do me dirt while I'm driving my High MPG Smart, expect to deal with me while I'm riding my superbike. How about a few caved-in door panels or fenders?
Dude it's just you and the asphalt out there. Do you really want to attack someone who is sheathed in a steel cocoon? Suicidal! :sick:
Darwin at work.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
When you go to the zoo and see a sign that says: "Don't stand next to the monkey cage, they like to throw poo", do you stand there anyway? It doesn't matter to the monkey if you have a "right" to be there, you're going to get the poo.
Like it or not there are people who get annoyed when others get in their way. They tend to be aggressive and speeders. If you block them they may do foolish things to get around you.
The other day I watched a Land Rover come up behind another car in the left lane which was doing about 70 in a 65 zone. The LR rode the other cars' bumper and turned on his flashers (I'm sure he was flashing his lights too). When the other car couldn't get out of his way fast enough the LR took the left shoulder and passed at at least 90. About a mile further I just caught him in my view as he swerved across three lanes and took the exit at high speed....right into the race track.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
How about "nice talk" with a lawer and loosing money for repair, repaint and "suffering"? :P
I bet the fully loaded tractor trailer hardly felt the motorcycle slam into it in post #13987 ? Hopefully the motorcycle drivers insurance and estate will pay for the damages to the tractor trailer rig.
Normally motorcycle drivers are way under insured. That is another reason why I don't like them sharing/splitting lanes with me. To state the obvious, serious injury to death can literally be 6 inches and a split second away.
About a mile up the road, we caught up to him. He was stopped, and looked like he was trying to pull a chunk of something that got wedged in his rear wheel.
Unfortunately something for everybody.
Not a bad thought though, maybe the low skill of drivers in this part of the world is intentional - marginal teaching, to keep justification for low limits, and keep the money rolling in to irresponsible municipalities who are unable to do any other financial planning.
Looks like minivans are the way to go. No one steals them.
Actually, there is a niche market for them. A few years back, my coworker's 2001 Grand Caravan was stolen from the parking lot at her condo. The perps took it out to the country, stopped in the middle of the road, and dumped EVERYTHING...two rear row seats, all her personal belongings, all of it, in the middle of the street. The next morning, someone who lived out there found her phone # in the debris and called her.
Well, a few days later, the police spotted her Caravan and gave chase. The perps took off, and ended up in a neighborhood with a cul-de-sac. They stopped, bailed out, but left it in gear, and it idled forward into a tree. I don't think they ever did get caught.
The minivan ended up being a total. The damage from hitting the tree wasn't that bad, but to steal it, they tore up the locks on both front doors, and either the sliding side door or the hatch; I can't remember which now. And the steering column was torn up from hotwiring. And in addition to the extra seats being tossed, the whole interior was torn up and muddy. The police believe her Caravan was used to jack ATV's and similar equipment from rural areas.
Nobody steals minivans for joyrides, parts, etc. However, because they're so anonymous looking, they make great hauling vehicles for burglaries and such.
My coworker drives a generic looking silver 2008 Camry CE now. So my guess is that if someone wants to pull a bank heist or some other crime where they need an anonymous looking car, they'll look her up!
And Estimates of People Injured for 2007
Increases in 1. population 2. drivers 3 cars 4.. trips 5. overall mileage (per capital an actual 3% decrease) etc.
Lower: 1. accidents 2. fatalities 3. lower % of DUI
Further if you compare it with the European Continental figures, we are literally BETTER than they, albeit (however much).
Taught to conform to defer or conform to any law.....(?) So, what would you have? Children, people taught to pick and choose what law to obey or conform according to their own criteria?
If it was all about logic, the mindless puritans who have corrupted this society so deeply wouldn't have any say in how fast people can drive at all.
Great. So, would society be better off with people with high performance as well as ordinary cars doing as they please on interstates such as 100+ mph. Teen-age boys doing 70-90 on rural two-lanes?
What is such a big deal about speed per se? Driving over the limit just to get ahead of others? To save a hanful of minutes on commutes to work? Or, some kind of infantile/childish "thrill" factor?
The easiest way to theft-proof a car is to put an OEM-looking "diesel" badge on the back of it.
"pick and choose what law to obey or conform according to their own criteria? "
Sounds like American foreign policy of the past few generations.
Define "speed" before an alarmist rant is drafted. Is 75 or 80mph really "Speed" seeing as it is acceptable in much of the rest of the developed world? Of course, most of the rest of the developed world is still outpacing the backwards American ideal.
Just keep right and enjoy your oblivion.
I travel from NJ to Richmond quite frequently.... coming home that traffic from Fredricksburg up to and past the bridge is the worst. If I end up that I'll hit it after 3:00 I usually end up getting off at Kings Dominion and working my way to 301 It's a little further mileage wise, but at least it moves.
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic
In the end though, it wasn't too bad. Took us about 2 hours and 15 mins to get home, which I guess isn't bad for 104 miles, once you take into account those traffic jams. I might try Route 301 sometime though, just for a change of pace. When I was a kid, we lived down just south of Waldorf from 1979-80. I used to love it down there, but now it just seems all grown up, at least along 301. It's just not the same.
Not in NY. Two Chrysler made minivans are in the top 10. And as if you needed proof that people here are crazy, the 1996 Plymouth is #8 most stolen. :confuse: :lemon:
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible