One thing I haven't seen mentioned is the possibility of an inaccurate speedometer. Some read a few MPH slow, and some fast. You mix the two, and the guy behind you may think you are doing 4-5mph below the speed limit.
So just to be safe, use the left lane only for passing as it was intended. It can greatly reduce stress and possibly accidents for all.
Indeed the LLC-mitigation-move I proposed is to become an LLC oneself, similarly violating the same laws/statues that the original LLCer violated! Clearly the LLC would not be bothered being LLCed, since they think LLCing is a Wonderful Thing.
So, the goal is not to "teach" the LLC anything, as that's like trying to teach a pig to sing.
The goal is to break the logjam, and allow ALL the vehicles stacked up behind the LLC, to safely pass on the right. I've seen it work! Bigrig drivers seem to especially appreciate this move.
The same thing applies for Middle-Lane-Campers who gum up traffic just as much or more than the LLCs. (the MLCs block the bigrigs from passing , since bigrigs are prohibited from the left lane of most highways around here.)
"What's good for the goose is good for the gander!"
If I remember correctly, if your tires are ONE size larger than what is stock for that vehicle, you may be unintentionally going about 5 mph faster than you believed.
As to the left lane driving, at least in the Bay Area, on the freeways if I am traveling 65 maximum limit, people will be on my rear bumper or may pass about 75 on the right and then cut me off. I have seen a few times, the front vehicle hit his brake light and the vehicle behind almost crash applying his/her brakes. Scary for the rest of us on the freeway
I like to travel on freeways like IS 5, along with the other 20 or so vehicles at abbout 75-80 mph. I guess its the "pack mentality" but many will pass the line of cars in the left lane at 85 - 90 mph.
The other issue is here in Disneyland, er Ca, the average speed many times of the "traffic pack" is 70-75 mph regardless of lane.
The issue of speed, left lane, et al has formed an excellent topic we have spoken to. I have enjoyed each post and respect each other's opinions. And that is why I really enjoy ALL of you as contributors.
>The same thing applies for Middle-Lane-Campers who gum up traffic just as much or more than the LLCs. (the MLCs block the bigrigs from passing ,
The argument of purity of purpose on the part of LLD's wanes when they start complaining about people in the middle lane (of 3 or more lanes) blocking their right to drive as fast as they want without regard to speed limit. That sounds like they want to go as fast as they want, when they want, and in which lane they want without the "great unwashed" slowing them down.
I admit to becoming a very impure LLC or MLC myself very occasionally and very briefly. Maybe that makes me not quite a camper, but just a campsite-visitor? Or maybe that makes me part of the problem and a horribly inconsiderate driver just like all the folks who really do CAMP in left/middle lanes, ignoring the many statutes which require drivers to travel in the rightmost available travel lane.
Around here, the MLCs are mostly a problem for bigrigs who are not allowed to be in left-lane and thus cannot get around a slowpoke in right lane and a MLC/slowpoke who are both travelling the same speed.
The traffic signs in Oregon read "Slower Traffic Keep Right" In Washington it's "Keep Right Except to Pass". No mention is made of speed limits. It's about traffic flow.
It's generally not a "Left Lane Dominator" behind you. It's just someone who wants to get to their destination and is comfortable driving a bit faster than you.
Actually, I have seen a LOT of big-rigs camped in the center lane. (No, it was not in an area with a lot of on ramps.)
This is especially annoying when the roads are wet, as they throw so much road spray that you can't see if it's clear to pass on the right, so ALL the overtaking traffic has to funnel through a single lane on the left. :mad:
>It's generally not a "Left Lane Dominator" behind you.
If they haven't been out of the left lane of a 3 or 4 lane interstate around here, they are a left lane dominator. If they have been moving in and out of the lanes on their right, then they are NOT a left lane dominator and are just someone driving faster than the limit.
>Slower Traffic Keep Right
Try telling that to an Ohio State Patrolman who stopped you for speeding: "Officer, I was in the left hand lane and was not impeding traffic, therefore I know you don't care about my 79 mph and it's only that I wasn't going slower than someone else where I should have been more to the right in the lane selection per the ORC (Ohio Revised Code)."
Try telling that to an Ohio State Patrolman who stopped you for speeding
I don't think anyone is saying that a speeding ticket wouldn't be justified in your scenario. Neither would a ticket for driving in the left lane in those states that don't allow it.
"The traffic signs in Oregon read "Slower Traffic Keep Right" In Washington it's "Keep Right Except to Pass". No mention is made of speed limits. It's about traffic flow. "
The poster was implying that if someone is slower, despite being at the speed limit and above, they must clear the leftmost lane for those choosing to speed.
It's such a simple thing and it's in the Code of Virginia. Keep right when overtaken by a faster vehicle. John ________________
§ 46.2-804. Special regulations applicable on highways laned for traffic.
Whenever any roadway has been divided into clearly marked lanes for traffic, drivers of vehicles shall obey the following:
1. Any vehicle proceeding at less than the normal speed of traffic at the time and place and under the conditions existing, shall be driven in the lane nearest the right edge or right curb of the highway when such lane is available for travel except when overtaking and passing another vehicle or in preparation for a left turn or where right lanes are reserved for slow-moving traffic as permitted in this section;
>at less than the normal speed of traffic at the time and place and under the conditions existing
"normal speed of traffic" sounds like the posted speed limit for cars. If they're going faster than same..., doesn't sound like it's covered. IF someone is going slower than posted speed limit then it's suggested to use a more rightmost lane "except when overtaking and passing another vehicle... or where right lanes are reserved for slow-moving traffic." So the right lane doesn't sound like an available option all the time.
If that was so, why didn't they put "speed limit" instead of "normal speed of traffic"?
Here's the Idaho version:
"Upon all highways any vehicle proceeding at less than normal speed of traffic at the time and place and under the conditions then existing, shall be driven in the right-hand lane available for traffic, or as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the highway, except when overtaking and passing another vehicle proceeding in the same direction or when preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway."
""normal speed of traffic" sounds like the posted speed limit for cars."
It may sound like it, but it's not.
I have police in the family. And a fishing/poker buddy who has been a self-employed lawyer for 35 years. When overtaken by a faster vehicle, you are required by Virginia law to move to the right lane when it is safe to do so.
The poster was implying that if someone is slower, despite being at the speed limit and above, they must clear the leftmost lane for those choosing to speed.
He wasn't implying it, that's the law. I won't repost the links... you can look at the last several days of posts. In some states, it is illegal to impede traffic. The speed limit does not trump keep right except to pass and vice versa.
That being said, speeders are clearly breaking and law. They are taking the risk that they won't get caught. However, it is also against the law (in some states) to hold them up by driving in the left lane.
I had to drive on 405 today, which is usually about the tenth level of hell, but luckily it was in off-hours so volumes weren't too bad. General run of slowpokes going ~45 in a 60, but generally no issues other than yappers. But I did see one goodie...middle aged couple in a MDX, crawling in the carpool lane, made an abrupt lane change in front of me . Then it made another abrupt change into the lane beside me. The car beside me was an unmarked State Patrol car, which then hit its lights. I hope a ticket was issued :shades:
So what does holding a (false) moral high ground to justify breaking a law while not breaking another entail? And if you're going 62 in a 60, you're just as guilty of breaking two laws
Sadly, they can pretty much ticket as they like...we all know it's about money over safety, and we all know there's an alarming lack of accountability in that facet of tax collection.
>The car beside me was an unmarked State Patrol car, which then hit its lights.
That's one factor that is missing in Ohio State Patrol's arsenal, unmarked cars. It's illegal to use unmarked vehicles for traffic duties in Ohio. If we could use unmarked cars, we could stop a lot of the flagrant speeding and aggressive driving. As it is, all they have to do is watch for the white State Patrol car with the red and blue light bar on top. Too much warning for many of the aggressive speeders.
I see it as punishing the inattentive. The car was a dark blue Crown Vic with black wheels and a plate ending in "WSP"...anyone who acts stupid around that deserves a ticket.
So if one is a speeder but not aggressive, then it's cool right?
>So if one is a speeder but not aggressive, then it's cool right?
There is a difference. Many people who speed have a technique of aggressiveness. Many people who want to get somewhere above the speed limit respect the space around others, whether in the leftmost lane or the middle lane of 3, etc. When I see the carefull and courteous speeder and if I happen to be in the left lane, it's hi ho to them; let them go on their way. They might find the speed check and keep me at 7 over or 8 over from getting a nibble of the white state patrol car in Ohio.
I observe Mercedes drivers to among the more courteous in heavier traffic when someone is dawdling at or above the speed limit in the leftmost lane or even below the limit. They don't spend their effort nudging up against the car in the left lane trying to force the driver to accede to them and get out of their way. I have even made an opening for them to move into the other lane to pass on the right.
As it is, all they have to do is watch for the white State Patrol car with the red and blue light bar on top. Too much warning for many of the aggressive speeders.
Honestly, if someone is speeding/driving aggressively, but paying enough attention to the road scene and traffic to identify enforcement vehicles, I feel safer/more comfortable around that then soccer mom in the minivan with 4 kids watching tv doing 65 in the fast lane. At least one is paying attention to the road and the driving scene.
LLCing is just as aggressive as those who tailgate and force their way through, just in a different way. Both seek to control others. Passive-aggressive is still aggressive. Speaking of 7-8 over...around here that would be amazing.
I'd think BMW drivers would tend to be more abrupt than MB drivers. What you describe sounds like my mindset...I don't bother to tailgate, I just blip the throttle and leave the tortoise safely behind :shades:
bigrig drivers have considerations the rest of do not begin to understand and we are not qualified to judge what lane they pick.
Esteemed LLCers rejoice - you too can be driving 10 mph slower than you wanted to be, while 400 bigrigs, minivans, camaro guys, and yuppie BMW chicks pass you on the right and/left 25 mph faster
normal speed of traffic is definitely not the posted speed limit. the real speed limit is the prima-facie speed limit - that set by the cop and the reasonable driver.
the prima-facie/real speed-limit can be above or below the posted limit.
the posted limit is often mandated/defined to be the 85th percentile speed. so 15% of the traffic will be driving faster than the properly-set speed limit. 85% below. this is by definition in many states but probably not all. to set a post a reasonable pseudo-speed-limit, it is often mandated to do a speed survey to determine 85th percentile speed.
it's funny how anyone can interpret the vehice codes & statutes according to their own definition of words to justify their LLCing or MLCing. what does prima-facie mean anyway?
(it all depends on what the meaning of "is" is . )
Using the law to justify speeding ( get out of my way)...
Actually, I kind of like Fin's reply.
However, I know that I'm not trying to justify speeding. Perhaps it sounds like others are but I'm not sure about that. It does sound like some folks are trying to justify LLCing. I hope that we all can agree on two things:
1. Tailgating an LLC is dangerous. Just because the LLC is breaking the law doesn't mean the person behind should try to control the situation.
2. Deliberately holding up traffic by driving in the left lane is dangerous. Just because the person behind is breaking the law doesn't mean the one in front should try to control the situation.
Even if you are driving 62 in a 60 zone, I would think it would be great to let the faster speeder pass you. I know I always like to be in that situation because they will be picked up on radar before me.
Many people who want to get somewhere above the speed limit respect the space around others
Yep - that's the way to do it. I watch for this behavior and make an extra effort to let the other driver know that their technique is appreciated.
I also do not mind when cars that are fast approaching blip their lights when they are still a ways off. Several times when driving on interstates in the lower 48 people would do this when I would put on my left blinker to pass a slower moving vehicle ahead of me in the right lane. It is a good attention-grabbing technique because otherwise a driver ahead may not look into the mirror long enough to accurately gauge the speed differential on a vehicle that far back. It caused me to do a double-take and often wait a couple seconds extra for the other vehicle to zip by before changing lanes.
To me, driving well above the speed limit is the same as well under it - done courteously, neither presents an impediment to the normal flow of traffic.
2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
In my experience, Ohio is one of the few places east of the Mississippi River where the traffic tends to flow very well for the most part. Columbus has been the only area (so far) where I have hit heavily snarled traffic on the interstates. In other cities, like Cincinnati, the traffic has been quite heavy but still flows well. I suspect it all has to do with timing....
2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
The turn signal is a trick used in Germany to alert the few who have dawdled into the left lane. Flashing lights also comes from there, but is generally seen as rude...and on this side of the pond, might incite road rage on the part of the left lane dawdler who has appointed himself deputy highway patrolman :shades:
I have seen the signal method used just a couple times here, but flashing lights is more common. It's better than laying on the horn anyway.
i visited germany and rode from frankfurt to dusseldorf and back in coworkers BMW wagon at 140 mph, on an autobahn with no speed limit inbetween cities. Many left-lane drivers doing about 120 mph refused to move right even when there was space and my coworker used left-turn-signal.
Half the autobahn drivers acted as LLCs - refusing to move to the right until he started tailgating them at about 130 mph - maybe a foot off their rear bumper. It was terrifying! And also surprising.
The worst thing I experienced in Germany was trucks passing trucks, pulling the same stunt they pull here of passing a truck going .005mph slower than their own. It could create a real bottleneck.
The high speed LLCs are something all their own...I think because high speeds require constant focus of what's ahead, that some fail to keep an eye on what's behind them - just like many LLCs here probably don't even look in their mirror. Tailgating is a big thing there, yes, I saw the same thing - 5ft following distance at 100mph+. I didn't have such problems when I was driving, but I was mainly in the east and south - less population density.
>like Cincinnati, the traffic has been quite heavy but still flows well.
Which Cincinnati is that? I can take you to certain strips of I75 in The Ohio Cincinnati at certain times and guarantee you'll wonder why your travel is stalled.
Lots of immigrants from Eastern and Asian countries who never drove a car before arrival in Deutschland. Lots of them using native driver licenses bought in native countries.
Yep, no place has 100% perfect drivers. I actually used the horn once while driving there, as a woman in IIRC an Opel convertible was just sitting there staring into space when a short light changed to green. Just like home :shades:
I'll still take a German trained driver over one from my area. I think a lot of the lowest common denominator "motorists" (I use the term lightly) here would wet themselves at the demands of driving in a place with high expectations.
The German LLC scenario is a little different from here. Most autobahns are 2 or no more than 3 lanes in each direction. The right lane moves barely faster than it would here, maybe 60mph. If a person is moving at say 100mph, and they are passing the 60mph lane, they might not want to get over and slam on their brakes to let the 140mph driver past, rather they will want to pass the slow right lane pack and not have to suddenly decelerate - but they will eventually get over. The speed differentials can be shocking, but people generally will move over for faster traffic, and passing on the right is both illegal and taboo. It's different from what I see here, which is the LLC driving at the same speed or maybe a fifth of a mph over the lane to their right, creating a bottleneck or people weaving and passing on the right when possible.
From a USA driver's perspective, the thing that bothers me the most about your description of the German driving experience is the large speed differentials between lanes.
It makes me uneasy to pass cars in an adjacent lane if I am traveling more than 15-20 MPH faster than they are. In fact, I will slow down to reduce the differential until I get by them. I guess, that makes sense in the good ol' US of A, where rear view mirrors are best used for checking make-up. :sick:
Still, I would like to give autobahn driving a try. I'll put it on my "bucket list". :shades:
I think there's much greater situational awareness there and in other places, so it isn't a big deal - people won't make random pointless lane changes like I see here. I felt odd going 120-130 and passing cars going 60-70...but nothing ever happened, nor did I see it happen to anyone else.
It's also kind of odd to be going 120-130 and having cars zoom by going 150+....odd, but cool. I remember that happened to me, I was going about 120...I spotted something coming up behind me, and I got over, and an M5 flew past probably at the speed governor, or more. And the only autobahn accident I saw was a low speed fender bender.
One thing I saw that worried me was that weather had no impact on speed. Dense fog or rain did not seem to slow people down a bit. I didn't feel comfortable going more than 100 or so in moderate rain, and at that speed was passed by several cars. I suspect the roads have better drainage there...there is actually something to show for their (massive) gas taxes, unlike here.
All of the crashes I have witnessed that occurred in fog were due primarily to speed differentials. There are those who drive slowly because they cannot see more than 10' in front of them and those that drive as if their vehicle is equipped with sonic imaging. When the latter meets up with the prior, there is a crash.
2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
The MatSu River crossing has had a few bad pile-ups - they have fog lights now. Similar story outside of Chattanooga where the interstate crosses the lower Hiwassee River. But they had a bad wreck there one year with the fog lights on.
Yeah the fog there has made some disastrous wrecks, like hundred-plus car pileups. I do remember driving through some decent fog at about 100mph one early Sunday morning...
Europe as a whole has a truck issue now, with trucks from eastern areas and eastern driving routines coming into the more organized west.
Nope, no DRL rules that I know of, but like here, good drivers turn their lights on for high speed travel anyway. I think they do have headlight laws for inclement weather, as I think Canada does also.
Actually that is a good point, to get into the fast lane requires a significant burst of acceleration, just to be safe. You can't just meander over at 3mph faster than the car in front of you like people do here. On an unlimited stretch, people need to hit a higher speed while passing, or deal with going slow - as it is just too dangerous to dawdle over, and it will be seen as rude in a culture that actually values driving skill.
Oh yeah, and there are fun laws...intentional LLC is a significant ticket, along with backing up or turning around. Running out of gas due to driver error is also a penalty, along with having a winter accident on summer tires.
> Actually that is a good point, to get into the fast lane requires a significant burst of acceleration, just to be safe. You can't just meander over at 3mph faster than the car in front of you like people do here
Thank you for your answers. It's a completely different type of driving than our urban/interurban interstates here, based on what you're describing. There is a accountability for the driver and the driver's keeping their car prepared for the road.
Changing lanes in traffic on 3 and more lane interstates here is aggravating to me and shows out another inconsiderate driver. If in lane 3 and changing to lane 2, someone in lane 1 will often just move over into lane 2 without checking turn signals on a car in lane 3. The drivers don't anticipate that someone else might be moving from faster lanes to the opening in between them.
Driver training there is intense, it takes a long time and costs a lot more than here. Of course, there are reciprocity agreements, so an American or other expat should be able to just fill out a few reams of paperwork and deal with the famous German bureaucracy, and get a license without the endless exams. Vehicle inspections are also rigorous...there are plenty of older vehicles still in service there, but no downright clunkers like one can see here. Cars with structural rust, nonfunctioning lights, bad tires or suspension, etc don't pass.
I have a suspicion a lot of lowest common denominator drivers don't look before changing lanes - I know being "cut off" seems to be a main cause of road rage incidents.
I have a friend who exported his '85 Chevy C20 van to Europe in 2003, I think it was. He drove it from Fairbanks, just after we swapped a new engine into it, to Newark. It as then loaded onto a ship and transported to Amsterdam. At that point, the US Customs people completely trashed the interior of the van under the guise of an "inspection," but after that it was smooth sailing. His destination was Finland, where the van still resides, but he visited some family relations in Germany first. A patrol car stopped him on the Autobahn because he thought the license plates (Alaska) were fake. After that, though, he had several photos taken as if my friend was some sort of celebrity! :P
2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
Did he pull out his Alaska passport and show the cop?
Surely you have one of those - they were all the rage about 10 years ago. A friend of mine presented one at a Czech border crossing and had the guards going for a few minutes. They were kind enough to stamp it for him.
Comments
So just to be safe, use the left lane only for passing as it was intended. It can greatly reduce stress and possibly accidents for all.
So, the goal is not to "teach" the LLC anything, as that's like trying to teach a pig to sing.
The goal is to break the logjam, and allow ALL the vehicles stacked up behind the LLC, to safely pass on the right. I've seen it work! Bigrig drivers seem to especially appreciate this move.
The same thing applies for Middle-Lane-Campers who gum up traffic just as much or more than the LLCs. (the MLCs block the bigrigs from passing , since bigrigs are prohibited from the left lane of most highways around here.)
"What's good for the goose is good for the gander!"
As to the left lane driving, at least in the Bay Area, on the freeways if I am traveling 65 maximum limit, people will be on my rear bumper or may pass about 75 on the right and then cut me off. I have seen a few times, the front vehicle hit his brake light and the vehicle behind almost crash applying his/her brakes. Scary for the rest of us on the freeway
I like to travel on freeways like IS 5, along with the other 20 or so vehicles at abbout 75-80 mph. I guess its the "pack mentality" but many will pass the line of cars in the left lane at 85 - 90 mph.
The other issue is here in Disneyland, er Ca, the average speed many times of the "traffic pack" is 70-75 mph regardless of lane.
The issue of speed, left lane, et al has formed an excellent topic we have spoken to. I have enjoyed each post and respect each other's opinions. And that is why I really enjoy ALL of you as contributors.
Good luck to all and stay safe.
jensad
The argument of purity of purpose on the part of LLD's wanes when they start complaining about people in the middle lane (of 3 or more lanes) blocking their right to drive as fast as they want without regard to speed limit. That sounds like they want to go as fast as they want, when they want, and in which lane they want without the "great unwashed" slowing them down.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Or maybe that makes me part of the problem and a horribly inconsiderate driver just like all the folks who really do CAMP in left/middle lanes, ignoring the many statutes which require drivers to travel in the rightmost available travel lane.
Around here, the MLCs are mostly a problem for bigrigs who are not allowed to be in left-lane and thus cannot get around a slowpoke in right lane and a MLC/slowpoke who are both travelling the same speed.
It's generally not a "Left Lane Dominator" behind you. It's just someone who wants to get to their destination and is comfortable driving a bit faster than you.
This is especially annoying when the roads are wet, as they throw so much road spray that you can't see if it's clear to pass on the right, so ALL the overtaking traffic has to funnel through a single lane on the left. :mad:
If they haven't been out of the left lane of a 3 or 4 lane interstate around here, they are a left lane dominator. If they have been moving in and out of the lanes on their right, then they are NOT a left lane dominator and are just someone driving faster than the limit.
>Slower Traffic Keep Right
Try telling that to an Ohio State Patrolman who stopped you for speeding: "Officer, I was in the left hand lane and was not impeding traffic, therefore I know you don't care about my 79 mph and it's only that I wasn't going slower than someone else where I should have been more to the right in the lane selection per the ORC (Ohio Revised Code)."
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I don't think anyone is saying that a speeding ticket wouldn't be justified in your scenario. Neither would a ticket for driving in the left lane in those states that don't allow it.
The poster was implying that if someone is slower, despite being at the speed limit and above, they must clear the leftmost lane for those choosing to speed.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
________________
§ 46.2-804. Special regulations applicable on highways laned for traffic.
Whenever any roadway has been divided into clearly marked lanes for traffic, drivers of vehicles shall obey the following:
1. Any vehicle proceeding at less than the normal speed of traffic at the time and place and under the conditions existing, shall be driven in the lane nearest the right edge or right curb of the highway when such lane is available for travel except when overtaking and passing another vehicle or in preparation for a left turn or where right lanes are reserved for slow-moving traffic as permitted in this section;
"normal speed of traffic" sounds like the posted speed limit for cars. If they're going faster than same..., doesn't sound like it's covered. IF someone is going slower than posted speed limit then it's suggested to use a more rightmost lane "except when overtaking and passing another vehicle... or where right lanes are reserved for slow-moving traffic." So the right lane doesn't sound like an available option all the time.
"
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Here's the Idaho version:
"Upon all highways any vehicle proceeding at less than normal speed of traffic at the time and place and under the conditions then existing, shall be driven in the right-hand lane available for traffic, or as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the highway, except when overtaking and passing another vehicle proceeding in the same direction or when preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway."
Idaho Statutes
It may sound like it, but it's not.
I have police in the family.
John
He wasn't implying it, that's the law. I won't repost the links... you can look at the last several days of posts. In some states, it is illegal to impede traffic. The speed limit does not trump keep right except to pass and vice versa.
That being said, speeders are clearly breaking and law. They are taking the risk that they won't get caught. However, it is also against the law (in some states) to hold them up by driving in the left lane.
Then they can't give speeding tickets if someone is moving along with one or more other cars at a "normal flow of traffic."
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
That's one factor that is missing in Ohio State Patrol's arsenal, unmarked cars. It's illegal to use unmarked vehicles for traffic duties in Ohio. If we could use unmarked cars, we could stop a lot of the flagrant speeding and aggressive driving. As it is, all they have to do is watch for the white State Patrol car with the red and blue light bar on top. Too much warning for many of the aggressive speeders.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
So if one is a speeder but not aggressive, then it's cool right?
There is a difference. Many people who speed have a technique of aggressiveness. Many people who want to get somewhere above the speed limit respect the space around others, whether in the leftmost lane or the middle lane of 3, etc. When I see the carefull and courteous speeder and if I happen to be in the left lane, it's hi ho to them; let them go on their way. They might find the speed check and keep me at 7 over or 8 over from getting a nibble of the white state patrol car in Ohio.
I observe Mercedes drivers to among the more courteous in heavier traffic when someone is dawdling at or above the speed limit in the leftmost lane or even below the limit. They don't spend their effort nudging up against the car in the left lane trying to force the driver to accede to them and get out of their way. I have even made an opening for them to move into the other lane to pass on the right.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Honestly, if someone is speeding/driving aggressively, but paying enough attention to the road scene and traffic to identify enforcement vehicles, I feel safer/more comfortable around that then soccer mom in the minivan with 4 kids watching tv doing 65 in the fast lane. At least one is paying attention to the road and the driving scene.
I'd think BMW drivers would tend to be more abrupt than MB drivers. What you describe sounds like my mindset...I don't bother to tailgate, I just blip the throttle and leave the tortoise safely behind :shades:
Esteemed LLCers rejoice - you too can be driving 10 mph slower than you wanted to be, while 400 bigrigs, minivans, camaro guys, and yuppie BMW chicks pass you on the right and/left 25 mph faster
It's road-karma.
the prima-facie/real speed-limit can be above or below the posted limit.
the posted limit is often mandated/defined to be the 85th percentile speed. so 15% of the traffic will be driving faster than the properly-set speed limit.
85% below.
this is by definition in many states but probably not all. to set a post a reasonable pseudo-speed-limit, it is often mandated to do a speed survey to determine 85th percentile speed.
it's funny how anyone can interpret the vehice codes & statutes according to their own definition of words to justify their LLCing or MLCing. what does prima-facie mean anyway?
(it all depends on what the meaning of "is" is . )
Actually, I kind of like Fin's reply.
However, I know that I'm not trying to justify speeding. Perhaps it sounds like others are but I'm not sure about that. It does sound like some folks are trying to justify LLCing. I hope that we all can agree on two things:
1. Tailgating an LLC is dangerous. Just because the LLC is breaking the law doesn't mean the person behind should try to control the situation.
2. Deliberately holding up traffic by driving in the left lane is dangerous. Just because the person behind is breaking the law doesn't mean the one in front should try to control the situation.
Even if you are driving 62 in a 60 zone, I would think it would be great to let the faster speeder pass you. I know I always like to be in that situation because they will be picked up on radar before me.
Yep - that's the way to do it. I watch for this behavior and make an extra effort to let the other driver know that their technique is appreciated.
I also do not mind when cars that are fast approaching blip their lights when they are still a ways off. Several times when driving on interstates in the lower 48 people would do this when I would put on my left blinker to pass a slower moving vehicle ahead of me in the right lane. It is a good attention-grabbing technique because otherwise a driver ahead may not look into the mirror long enough to accurately gauge the speed differential on a vehicle that far back. It caused me to do a double-take and often wait a couple seconds extra for the other vehicle to zip by before changing lanes.
To me, driving well above the speed limit is the same as well under it - done courteously, neither presents an impediment to the normal flow of traffic.
I have seen the signal method used just a couple times here, but flashing lights is more common. It's better than laying on the horn anyway.
Many left-lane drivers doing about 120 mph refused to move right even when there was space and my coworker used left-turn-signal.
Half the autobahn drivers acted as LLCs - refusing to move to the right until he started tailgating them at about 130 mph - maybe a foot off their rear bumper. It was terrifying! And also surprising.
The high speed LLCs are something all their own...I think because high speeds require constant focus of what's ahead, that some fail to keep an eye on what's behind them - just like many LLCs here probably don't even look in their mirror. Tailgating is a big thing there, yes, I saw the same thing - 5ft following distance at 100mph+. I didn't have such problems when I was driving, but I was mainly in the east and south - less population density.
Which Cincinnati is that?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I'll still take a German trained driver over one from my area. I think a lot of the lowest common denominator "motorists" (I use the term lightly) here would wet themselves at the demands of driving in a place with high expectations.
The German LLC scenario is a little different from here. Most autobahns are 2 or no more than 3 lanes in each direction. The right lane moves barely faster than it would here, maybe 60mph. If a person is moving at say 100mph, and they are passing the 60mph lane, they might not want to get over and slam on their brakes to let the 140mph driver past, rather they will want to pass the slow right lane pack and not have to suddenly decelerate - but they will eventually get over. The speed differentials can be shocking, but people generally will move over for faster traffic, and passing on the right is both illegal and taboo. It's different from what I see here, which is the LLC driving at the same speed or maybe a fifth of a mph over the lane to their right, creating a bottleneck or people weaving and passing on the right when possible.
From a USA driver's perspective, the thing that bothers me the most about your description of the German driving experience is the large speed differentials between lanes.
It makes me uneasy to pass cars in an adjacent lane if I am traveling more than 15-20 MPH faster than they are. In fact, I will slow down to reduce the differential until I get by them. I guess, that makes sense in the good ol' US of A, where rear view mirrors are best used for checking make-up. :sick:
Still, I would like to give autobahn driving a try. I'll put it on my "bucket list". :shades:
It's also kind of odd to be going 120-130 and having cars zoom by going 150+....odd, but cool. I remember that happened to me, I was going about 120...I spotted something coming up behind me, and I got over, and an M5 flew past probably at the speed governor, or more. And the only autobahn accident I saw was a low speed fender bender.
One thing I saw that worried me was that weather had no impact on speed. Dense fog or rain did not seem to slow people down a bit. I didn't feel comfortable going more than 100 or so in moderate rain, and at that speed was passed by several cars. I suspect the roads have better drainage there...there is actually something to show for their (massive) gas taxes, unlike here.
Looks like a lot of the wrecks in the last 24 hours involved trucks, assuming Bing's translator is half right (link).
Europe as a whole has a truck issue now, with trucks from eastern areas and eastern driving routines coming into the more organized west.
One of my minors was in German in my undergrad work and that's the closest to Deutschland I'll ever get.
But you have been there, so do they use daytime running lights to make vehicles more visible to avoid overlooking a car moving rapidly from behind?
I'd worry about overlooking a car and moving over in front of them because of the speed differential.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Actually that is a good point, to get into the fast lane requires a significant burst of acceleration, just to be safe. You can't just meander over at 3mph faster than the car in front of you like people do here. On an unlimited stretch, people need to hit a higher speed while passing, or deal with going slow - as it is just too dangerous to dawdle over, and it will be seen as rude in a culture that actually values driving skill.
Oh yeah, and there are fun laws...intentional LLC is a significant ticket, along with backing up or turning around. Running out of gas due to driver error is also a penalty, along with having a winter accident on summer tires.
Actually that is a good point, to get into the fast lane requires a significant burst of acceleration, just to be safe. You can't just meander over at 3mph faster than the car in front of you like people do here
Thank you for your answers. It's a completely different type of driving than our urban/interurban interstates here, based on what you're describing. There is a accountability for the driver and the driver's keeping their car prepared for the road.
Changing lanes in traffic on 3 and more lane interstates here is aggravating to me and shows out another inconsiderate driver. If in lane 3 and changing to lane 2, someone in lane 1 will often just move over into lane 2 without checking turn signals on a car in lane 3. The drivers don't anticipate that someone else might be moving from faster lanes to the opening in between them.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I have a suspicion a lot of lowest common denominator drivers don't look before changing lanes - I know being "cut off" seems to be a main cause of road rage incidents.
Surely you have one of those - they were all the rage about 10 years ago. A friend of mine presented one at a Czech border crossing and had the guards going for a few minutes. They were kind enough to stamp it for him.