one with a license borrows friends car has coverage. When you loan your car you are also loaning your insurance. If Liability followed the person, that person with two or more vehicles would not have to buy insurance on the other cars he owns and that doesn't help the premium income of the carriers.
Here's what I decided to do, net of the aggravation I discovered is used as a device by some insurance companies to discourage claims, I decided to file with my insurance company. I'm just out the deductible till my company collects it from the at fault driver's company. I called my state insurance board and discovered I can also file a claim for diminished value, as a result of my car being hit, from the at fault driver's company.
Yes you can file a DV claim against the 3rd party's insurance but probably not your own (there's probably an exclusion clause in your own insurance contract).
My insurance company is very gracious. The other party's insurance co is one I never even heard of. This turns out to be ,at least in my case,an adversarial situation with the other insurance company. I'm offended to see how this works and how many consumers must be short changed by some of these companies. So,I'm gonna swing on 'em.
But insurance is required in MA for every registered vehicle and since the vast majority of licensed drivers are vehicle owners, you have very few drivers without insurance.
Well, I would hope that's the case everywhere. In any case, every registered vehicle here in NJ is also required to carry insurance ... but it doesn't mean it does. Just like everyone is required to obey the speed limit.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I am a diminished value assessor in Missouri and Kansas. When you file a diminished value claim against another party for damage you are in essence filing a claim against the tort feasor (party that caused your damages). You may have to sue the at fault party or serve them a letter of demand that you expect your loss to be paid. Under the restatement of torts, the at fault party's insurer must pay for all losses due to the negligence of their insured if they can be proven.
If you are using your insurance coverage, you have more contractual rights with them. You may have more legal recourse with the at fault party. If you choose to use your insurance company, they have rights of subrogation against the other party to collect what they paid you for repairs, and they should collect your deductible. You can not sue or take the other party to court for your DV and harm your insurer's rights of subrogation, they have no responsibility to you to collect your DV when they collect the reimbursement from the at fault party's insurer. You may want to consult a DV attorney in your area to attach your additional losses to your insurer's subrogation. My advice is given to you based on my experience as I am not an attorney but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express once.
In most states you can only sue the at fault party once for the same negligence. So you may not be able to collect your DV after your insurer instigates a subrogation suit if you file your suit later.
You could hire an attorney to work on contingency on the DV and he would negotiate your property loss with your insurer and DV loss with the at fault party insurer through what is known as multiple source recovery. With an attorney representing your collision loss with your own company, you may be spared the use of inferior parts made in taiwan to repair your vehicle and get repairs that some shops are afraid to charge the insurance company for certain procedures for fear of being removed from their direct repair programs. This should only be done with an attorney. The one I work with only takes contingency on the DV claim and you recieve full compensation for your collision repair. He may have co counsel in your state.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
please clarify something if you can. When you are struck by another party at fault, what's the difference between going through your insurance company (making a claim) or skipping that and just filing a claim with the other side?
What are the advantages and disadvantages in your opinion?
I wanted to thank you for this very detailed explanation. In my case the Dv may only be $ 650 after discussion w/ a Dv person. My piece of mind is worth more than this vs. an adversarial event with the other party's insurer. Don't think I will even bring it up. I filed the damage claim with my insurance company and hopefully will eventually get my deductible back. Thanks,again for the info.
Your peace of mind is expensive. What is there about making a valid claim for up to $650 that intimidates your peace of mind? Confrontation sharpens the wit.
Last week my girlfriend's car was hit while parked in front of my house. A couple come to my door, the man tells me there's a problem with her car. The man speaks English with an accent, his young wife speaks no English. His wife was driving a Jeep Grand Cherokee and hits the driver's door causing a noticeable amount of damage.
The man wants to pay my girlfriend cash to fix it, but my girlfriend wants to file a police report in case there needs to be an insurance claim. This is where the problems start. The man has a valid Pennsylvania driver's license, but his wife, who recently emigrated to the U.S. from Brazil does not. His insurance company is Titan, which I understand is a branch of Nationwide Insurance that handles high-risk drivers.
I take my girlfriend's car to a local body shop with whom I've done business in the past. I get an estimate for $1,256. I get two original copies, one for myself and one for the man whose wife hit her car. I was to return to the body shop this coming Saturday to have his insurance company's assesor look at my girlfriend's car. They were to cut a check then and there from what I've been told.
This is where it starts to get ugly. Titan Insurance called my gf at work and told her they're not going to pay the claim as the man's wife was driving without a license. They said something about her being "an unauthorized driver." Needless to say, gf was furious and had an emotional outburst that would've turned Tony Soprano into a quivering nervous wreck. I'm hoping the man got the news the claim was denied and will do the right thing and pay her. Girlfriend insists on cash in full. I'm going to call the man tonight after work. This man and his wife are my neighbors and I don't want any bad blood between us over a little fender bender. I am worried about what will happen if the man fails to pay as my girlfriend tends to be a female version of Joe Pesci when she is provoked. I explored several options, none of which are very savory:
1. Pay for the damage myself and eat the costs.
2. Go through my girlfriend's insurance, yet have to pay a $500 deductible and risk having her premiums go up or even dropped as gf's a pretty lousy driver herself.
3. Go through small claims court and risk making enemies out of my neighbors.
4. Do nothing and leave a nice two year-old car look like a beat-up wreck.
was the wife cited by the cop for driving without a license? if so (and if not, please explain), I would think bad blood will already exist. Not to mention I'd imagine his insurance ain't too happy with him and may even drop him.
In the end, this person SHOULD NOT have been driving, so, personally, I'd do whatever it takes to punish them. But that's me.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I understand that Antarctica is beautiful this time of year...maybe you should check it out before your girlfriend comes home...discount flights, too, IIRC...:):):):):)
"Titan Insurance called my gf at work and told her they're not going to pay the claim as the man's wife was driving without a license. They said something about her being "an unauthorized driver." "
Well, that should be between the insured and Titan... Titan should pay since they insured the vehicle and if they feel their insured is in the wrong, do whatever they want to recover from him.
This is just my opinion since I don't know what legally will happen in your jurisdiction.
If the couple will pay and satisfy your gf, fine. If not, then it may get even uglier...she might have to turn the claim over to her insurance...she would probably get the damage fixed, perhaps less her deductible. Then her insurance would try and recover from the couple and if successful, might be able to recover her deductible as well. If the latter course of action happens, then I don't know if your neighbors will continue to be 'friendly'. Also, the uninsured driver may have more legal trouble with the state DMV if they find out. Some states will require proof of Insurance and without that things can get even worse for the couple.
That said, I hope they can handle without things getting ugly.
As far as I know, the wife was not immediately cited for not having a license as her husband let her drive to work as he stayed at the scene. The police officer, (who arrived after his wife had left) noticed something funny about the paperwork and couldn't find the wife's name on the computer in his cruiser. The man then told the officer she had something known as an "international driver's license." The officer told him there was no such thing, (got conflicting stories from other sources saying there is) and asked the man how long his wife was in the country. The man replied "12 months." The officer told him his wife should've applied for a Pennsylvania state driver's license upon arriving in the country and that she should've waited around for the police report to be filed. He stated that she could be cited for driving w/o a license and for leaving the scene of an accident.
Really, I did not want to get the man or his wife in that much trouble, but gf insisted on filing a police report which really is the right thing to do in such a situation in case an insurance claim needs to be filed.
As it stands right now, my neighbors could have trouble in traffic court and the insurance company won't pay the claim, so everybody loses. It already is ugly and I don't want it to get worse. Yes, the man was irresponsible for letting his wife drive unlicensed, but it's one hell of a penalty for such a lapse in judgement.
Call your insurance company... Titan is just trying to blow you off.. If she was driving the insured's car, with the insured's permission, then he should be covered..
They won't be able to bluff your insurance company..
If you want to give this guy a couple of days to contact his company, or pay the bill himself, then go ahead... but, the high-risk, minimum coverage companies will do anything they can to not pay off... If you file with your company, you will only be out your deductible, and if they collect from Titan, you'll get that back.
Now, the other thing... does this bother anyone else?
"my girlfriend tends to be a female version of Joe Pesci"
Now, the other thing... does this bother anyone else?
"my girlfriend tends to be a female version of Joe Pesci"
Yeah, I'm thinking looks (short and balding), while I am absolutely sure he's referring to the temperment of some of the characters Mr. Pesci has portrayed on screen (the film "Casino" comes to mind).
:P It's Friday! Hope we're all light hearted this afternoon!
Titan's denial is a bluff because only Property Damage occurred. Had there been any Bodily Injury, they would be on it.
The unlicensed driver was not specifically excluded on the policy with Titan and they know it. Titan is on it. Get back to Titan and tell them to pay or you will sue them for "Failure to Settle in Good Faith".
What they quoted GF over the 'phone is not within their policy provisions. Sic em! :mad: :mad: :mad:
If she was driving the insured's car, with the insured's permission, then he should be covered.
She was driving the car with the owner of the car in the passenger seat. Therefore, she had de facto permission and, thereby, authorization to drive the car unless he can show he was kidnapped or otherwise under extreme duress.
Wow, I couldn't have said it better myself...looks like I'm not needed here anymore, so I will just drop back and lurk...thanks, tidester, I need the break...
One more thought comes to mind on this one. Not the 'specifically excluded' but the provision for an adult residing at that residence not being named as a driver. I'm thinking the insurance companies want your kids either named as drivers on a vehicle when living under your roof unless specifically excluded. Would it make a difference is she is adult, but no valid license? May be real grey here is she has a valid 'internation' or foreign license even if state of residence does not specifically recoginze. I still think their insurance is on the hook and will then have to deal with their insured and his wife. If Titan does squirm out of the claim then your neighbor and wife would probably be held responsible. If they don't settle (individually or through Titan) in a short period of time, then about the only recourse to satisfy gf insurance is to go ahead and file and let them handle it.
The man wants to pay my girlfriend cash to fix it, but my girlfriend wants to file a police report in case there needs to be an insurance claim.
I don't see the beef. If it was me I would just want my repair payed for with no hassle. Sounds like your girl friend is going to create allot of unneeded drama for you, her, and your neighbor.
If he wants to pony up the cash, just take the money, fix the car and be done with it.
worth remembering, when the at fault party does not want a police report written (NEVER allow that to happen)...
If he is afraid of an insurance claim, the report is only to document that the accident occurred (keeps 'em honest) and will usually assign fault...after all, if it didn't assign fault (more often than not) he wouldn't be afraid of the report...
So, if he ponies up the cash to fix your car and pay for your injuries (if any), then the report is filed away...but if you get any hassle about paying for ANYTHING, call his insurance and tell him he blew his chance...
The other thing he may fear is being issued a ticket for the wreck, which may cause him to lose his license if he has too many points...my answer is...TOO BAD...you should not run the risk of losing your right to file with his insurance (or yours, either...the report will show YOUR insurance that you were not at fault, so your rates will not go up if you make a collision claim)...any courtesy you offer him will certainly backfire on you if he is even 2% dishonest or belligerent...
Remember marsha's law...NO GOOD DEED GOES UNPUNISHED
Yesterday I dropped off my 2003 Corvette Conv to have a radio installed. The installers took it for a joy ride and lost control, ran off the road and went under a chain link fence. The end result is that 5 panels need to be painted, the car is out of alignment and the fog lamp brackets are broken. The installers are offering to pay for all repair work to the vehicle and pay for a rental while the work is done.
Should I ask for anything over and above the cost of the repairs themselves to offset the diminished value of this car following the accident?
Are there criminal implications since they used the car for unauthorized purposes and caused damage? I am located in Kentucky if that makes a difference.
I was first called by the police to let me know that my car was involved in the accident and that they were completing a hit and run report on the accident.
with a Corvette dealer to determine the approximate DV, and I would expect that the shop will cut you a check, in addition to having THEIR insurance pay to repair your car...or, consult a local attorney, but since there were no injuries (to you), it is simply a matter of fixing the car and DV...yeah, we certainly have problems with letting them drive the car...
Oh, and if THEY were injured in the wreck, be sure they are classified as nonpermissive users, so that they canot make a claim on your PIP/medpay for their injuries...they were authorized to drive it out of the garage and onto the parking lot, but not go for a joyride...
You'll probably have to go after their insurance company for the DV part of your claim, since in most states you can't claim DV against your own insurance company.
You have definitely suffered diminished value, probably 10%-30% of the retail value of your car. It depends a lot on mileage, condition, previous repair work to your car (if you suffered a previous major collision, just forget about a DV claim this time around), etc.
I talked to the installers today and they want to pay the body shop directly for the damage and not go through their insurance.
There were no injuries although the owner of the fence they hit is looking to have his fence repaired and the police did take my insurance info from the ins card I keep in the car.
I forgot to mention that on top of it all, they installed the WRONG radio!
The car just hit 30k miles, never in an accident, excellent condition. I'll used Edmunds to calc a retail value and use the 10-30% range to judge a DV.
I was under the assumption that the radio shop would pay for all repairs AND DV, since I had a feeling that if 2 employees went for an unauthorized joyride, they would not want their insurance to know, so they would probably pay out of pocket...IMO...
Maybe I have always had this wrong, but I always thought that it was INSURANCE CLAIMS, that made it to Carfax, not police reports...in essence, I saw Carfax as a database of insurance claims similar to Equifax as a database for credit...
So, I thought if a wreck was paid by one cash instead of insurance money, I thought it would never be placed on Carfax...hence, carfax would be fairly reliable, but not infallible, simply because few folks actually will pay for major repairs with cash and use insurance instead...
I talked to the installers today and they want to pay the body shop directly for the damage and not go through their insurance.
Every time I hear something like this, I get a queasy feeling...
Maybe you want to handle this differently... but, as soon as I found out what happened, I would have sworn out a criminal complaint, then called my insurance company... Businesses that don't want to use insurance, especially on a $5K+ claim, just might not have insurance..
So, your car is in the body shop for 4-6 weeks.... and at the end of that time, maybe they won't pay, or they forgot the details of the agreement. Then what? Call your insurance company about your car being stolen by stereo installers, who fled the scene? And, oh, by the way, that was two months ago... :surprise:
Don't cut these guys any slack... they wrecked your Corvette!
I appreciate your thoughts on this, but I only implied that they should give only a small time frame for the business to cut a check...as long as the police report is written, the Vette owner has protection...in the short run, anyway...
I have said before that most ins policies have either a 30 or 60 day time frame in order to report an accident for coverage...as long as everything goes well, he has some time...if not, have his insuarcne fix it under collision and then let ins sue the company...
Just a thought...I am anticipating (cautiously) cooperation from the company, since they have done some serious wrong...
OTOH, if they go bankrupt, he could be left holding the bag...
If the damage estimate is obtained, for protection have the company cut an immediate check to pay for repairs, plus DV...if they do it, you have enough time for the check to clear (or bounce)...
If they refuse, or the check bounces, then call your collision immediately and take it from there...that may be a reasonable solution, giving the company time to make good on the claim, yet protect yourself with a claim to your own ins within the alloted time frame your policy requires...
Nope...I have a carfax in front of me that quotes a police report # on a 2004 MINI. It doesn't specify the type or damage, but it says "accident".
But you are correct, CARFAX is NOT 100% reliable by any means.
I have come across any number of cars with serious prior damage that have a clean CARFAX report. Why this happens I haven't a clue but since I knew the cars intimately I knew they were damaged. One Miata had been hit three times, totalling $18,000 in damages, and it has a clean CARFAX report. Another BMW had been crushed in the side by a runaway truck and that has a clean CARFAX as well.
Again this is not legal advice, I have 30 years experience of working for consumers consulting them on repairs and loss of value. My knowledge of contracts and policies comes from my association with those who are attorneys. Govern yourself accordingly.
You need to look at your policy which is a contract. Under the payment of loss provisions or what they will pay for in the event of a loss , it will state the amount that they will pay based on their investigation of the claim or whether they are taking one of several options which they get to choose. If you aren't covered for rental expenses, for example, you can not expect your insurer to collect for that loss either as they can contractually only collect the amount of loss they paid and your deductible.
Under a typical policy one states:
Subrogation If WE pay any PERSON under this policy, WE will be subrogated to all rights to recovery, based on the same DAMAGES that the PERSON receiving the payment may have against any other PERSON liable for those DAMAGES. This provision does not apply to payments under Parts ll and Parts lll.
Any INSURED or other PERSON who receives payment under this policy, agrees to sign and deliver legal instruments to US, and do whatever else necessary to secure OUR rights.
Any INSURED, or other PERSON who receives payment under this policy, agrees to cooperate with US in enforcing our rights and do nothing (you can't sue them before we have first crack at them) to prejudice our rights.
Speaking based on my non legal interpretation, collision ownership and consultation experience, and humble opinion read the following with the understanding that it should not be taken as legal advice. As collision shop owners we are asked to negotiate the losses of our consumers even though we are legally prohibited from negotiating contracts or representing insureds. We are asked to agree to terms of insurance company investigations and offers for settlement on behalf of consumers. Those shop owners that do this feeling they are best representing their consumers, most likely could be found guilty of practicing law without a license. Only attorneys, licensed adjusters, public adjusters and those insured by contract can negotiate for indemnification of their losses.
The only advantage of going through the other party's insurer is that you most likely will be compensated for a rental, usually a super sub compact unless you stress you are entitled to be driving a vehicle similar to what you are currently driving (for example an suv escalade). Good luck on that one unless you are being represented by an attorney or they think you have the funds to hire an attorney. Insurers whether they will admit it or not, profile you as someone that they can push over or one that may be confrontational.
Remember the other party's insurer does not owe you until you legally prove your loss. They are only trying to settle your loss on their terms to avoid litigation as it is their duty to their insured not you. He who holds the gold has the power. Most high level Insurance adjusters are highly trained negotiaters with business degrees. Unless you know your legal rights you may be no match for them. They are trained to settle with you on the amount they feel is fair. It is their job to pay as little on a claim as possible to keep their company profitable. They are most times paid with bonuses on how little it takes for them to settle a claim known as severity.
Even though they do not have the contractual right or authority to tell you how to repair your car and with what kind of parts, most people fall in line with their presumed authority. If you want to use their money to fix your car, most likely you are going to be limited to their terms of settlement unless they fear you know more than you do. Their insured is legally liable to pay whatever is necessary to put you in pre loss condition and their insurance company promised them that they will do just that. So if you feel they did not pay an amount necessary, you may still be able to sue in small claims for the difference you may have out of pocket or your DV.
The advantages of using your own policy is that the contract requires your insurer to place you in a position as good as you held prior to the loss, commonly refered to as pre-loss condition. If they fail to pay an amount to put you in that position they may have failed to live up to the terms of the policy. Perhaps if they are abhorent at settling your loss they might be found in breach of contract. Anytime your insurer refuses to pay for a procedure or certain repair, you need to ask them to show you in your policy where it specifically refers to their reasoning.
Most states have unfair claims practices acts in the statutes or codes of regulations for insurance departments. They really do not like you to know these exist in my experience. One of those statutes in my state for example says that a policy holder can not be canceled for any negligence that is not their own. This means claims for hail damage, vandalism, damage due to the other guy that didn't have coverage, or for those claims you are afraid to submit when you were not occupying your vehicle in the parking lot, can not be used to cancel your coverage. an insurer always has the right to non renew you at renewal time. So why wouldn't it pay for you to be assertive in your contractual rights regarding how your property is to be repaired, after all they have promised to place you in a position you had prior to t
Speaking based on my non legal interpretation, collision ownership and consultation experience, and humble opinion read the following with the understanding that it should not be taken as legal advice. As collision shop owners we are asked to negotiate the losses of our consumers even though we are legally prohibited from negotiating contracts or representing insureds. We are asked to agree to terms of insurance company investigations and offers for settlement on behalf of consumers. Those shop owners that do this feeling they are best representing their consumers, most likely could be found guilty of practicing law without a license. Only attorneys, licensed adjusters, public adjusters and those insured by contract can negotiate for indemnification of their losses.
The only advantage of going through the other party's insurer is that you most likely will be compensated for a rental, usually a super sub compact unless you stress you are entitled to be driving a vehicle similar to what you are currently driving (for example an suv escalade). Good luck on that one unless you are being represented by an attorney or they think you have the funds to hire an attorney. Insurers whether they will admit it or not, profile you as someone that they can push over or one that may be confrontational.
Remember the other party's insurer does not owe you until you legally prove your loss. They are only trying to settle your loss on their terms to avoid litigation as it is their duty to their insured not you. He who holds the gold has the power. Most high level Insurance adjusters are highly trained negotiaters with business degrees. Unless you know your legal rights you may be no match for them. They are trained to settle with you on the amount they feel is fair. It is their job to pay as little on a claim as possible to keep their company profitable. They are most times paid with bonuses on how little it takes for them to settle a claim known as severity.
Even though they do not have the contractual right or authority to tell you how to repair your car and with what kind of parts, most people fall in line with their presumed authority. If you want to use their money to fix your car, most likely you are going to be limited to their terms of settlement unless they fear you know more than you do. Their insured is legally liable to pay whatever is necessary to put you in pre loss condition and their insurance company promised them that they will do just that. So if you feel they did not pay an amount necessary, you may still be able to sue in small claims for the difference you may have out of pocket or your DV.
The advantages of using your own policy is that the contract requires your insurer to place you in a position as good as you held prior to the loss, commonly refered to as pre-loss condition. If they fail to pay an amount to put you in that position they may have failed to live up to the terms of the policy. Perhaps if they are abhorent at settling your loss they might be found in breach of contract. Anytime your insurer refuses to pay for a procedure or certain repair, you need to ask them to show you in your policy where it specifically refers to their reasoning.
Most states have unfair claims practices acts in the statutes or codes of regulations for insurance departments. They really do not like you to know these exist in my experience. One of those statutes in my state for example says that a policy holder can not be canceled for any negligence that is not their own. This means claims for hail damage, vandalism, damage due to the other guy that didn't have coverage, or for those claims you are afraid to submit when you were not occupying your vehicle in the parking lot, can not be used to cancel your coverage. an insurer always has the right to non renew you at renewal time. So why wouldn't it pay for you to be assertive in your contractual rights regarding how your property is to be repaired, after all they have promised to place you in a position you had prior to t
I see your point when it is remembered that DV is a portion of Property Damage Liability. After my carrier is through subrogating against the Property Damage Liability carrier - may I then claim DV against the PD carrier?
Comments
Well, I would hope that's the case everywhere. In any case, every registered vehicle here in NJ is also required to carry insurance ... but it doesn't mean it does. Just like everyone is required to obey the speed limit.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
If you are using your insurance coverage, you have more contractual rights with them. You may have more legal recourse with the at fault party. If you choose to use your insurance company, they have rights of subrogation against the other party to collect what they paid you for repairs, and they should collect your deductible. You can not sue or take the other party to court for your DV and harm your insurer's rights of subrogation, they have no responsibility to you to collect your DV when they collect the reimbursement from the at fault party's insurer. You may want to consult a DV attorney in your area to attach your additional losses to your insurer's subrogation. My advice is given to you based on my experience as I am not an attorney but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express once.
In most states you can only sue the at fault party once for the same negligence. So you may not be able to collect your DV after your insurer instigates a subrogation suit if you file your suit later.
You could hire an attorney to work on contingency on the DV and he would negotiate your property loss with your insurer and DV loss with the at fault party insurer through what is known as multiple source recovery. With an attorney representing your collision loss with your own company, you may be spared the use of inferior parts made in taiwan to repair your vehicle and get repairs that some shops are afraid to charge the insurance company for certain procedures for fear of being removed from their direct repair programs. This should only be done with an attorney. The one I work with only takes contingency on the DV claim and you recieve full compensation for your collision repair. He may have co counsel in your state.
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Review your vehicle
please clarify something if you can. When you are struck by another party at fault, what's the difference between going through your insurance company (making a claim) or skipping that and just filing a claim with the other side?
What are the advantages and disadvantages in your opinion?
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How does suing for DV harm my carriers rights of subrogation when my carrier can not subrogate for DV?
Where in the contract of insurance with my company does it say I can NOT sue the at fault party for DV?
The man wants to pay my girlfriend cash to fix it, but my girlfriend wants to file a police report in case there needs to be an insurance claim. This is where the problems start. The man has a valid Pennsylvania driver's license, but his wife, who recently emigrated to the U.S. from Brazil does not. His insurance company is Titan, which I understand is a branch of Nationwide Insurance that handles high-risk drivers.
I take my girlfriend's car to a local body shop with whom I've done business in the past. I get an estimate for $1,256. I get two original copies, one for myself and one for the man whose wife hit her car. I was to return to the body shop this coming Saturday to have his insurance company's assesor look at my girlfriend's car. They were to cut a check then and there from what I've been told.
This is where it starts to get ugly. Titan Insurance called my gf at work and told her they're not going to pay the claim as the man's wife was driving without a license. They said something about her being "an unauthorized driver." Needless to say, gf was furious and had an emotional outburst that would've turned Tony Soprano into a quivering nervous wreck. I'm hoping the man got the news the claim was denied and will do the right thing and pay her. Girlfriend insists on cash in full. I'm going to call the man tonight after work. This man and his wife are my neighbors and I don't want any bad blood between us over a little fender bender. I am worried about what will happen if the man fails to pay as my girlfriend tends to be a female version of Joe Pesci when she is provoked. I explored several options, none of which are very savory:
1. Pay for the damage myself and eat the costs.
2. Go through my girlfriend's insurance, yet have to pay a $500 deductible and risk having her premiums go up or even dropped as gf's a pretty lousy driver herself.
3. Go through small claims court and risk making enemies out of my neighbors.
4. Do nothing and leave a nice two year-old car look like a beat-up wreck.
Can anybody suggest a better course of action?
In the end, this person SHOULD NOT have been driving, so, personally, I'd do whatever it takes to punish them. But that's me.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Well, that should be between the insured and Titan... Titan should pay since they insured the vehicle and if they feel their insured is in the wrong, do whatever they want to recover from him.
This is just my opinion since I don't know what legally will happen in your jurisdiction.
If the couple will pay and satisfy your gf, fine. If not, then it may get even uglier...she might have to turn the claim over to her insurance...she would probably get the damage fixed, perhaps less her deductible. Then her insurance would try and recover from the couple and if successful, might be able to recover her deductible as well. If the latter course of action happens, then I don't know if your neighbors will continue to be 'friendly'. Also, the uninsured driver may have more legal trouble with the state DMV if they find out. Some states will require proof of Insurance and without that things can get even worse for the couple.
That said, I hope they can handle without things getting ugly.
Really, I did not want to get the man or his wife in that much trouble, but gf insisted on filing a police report which really is the right thing to do in such a situation in case an insurance claim needs to be filed.
As it stands right now, my neighbors could have trouble in traffic court and the insurance company won't pay the claim, so everybody loses. It already is ugly and I don't want it to get worse. Yes, the man was irresponsible for letting his wife drive unlicensed, but it's one hell of a penalty for such a lapse in judgement.
They won't be able to bluff your insurance company..
If you want to give this guy a couple of days to contact his company, or pay the bill himself, then go ahead... but, the high-risk, minimum coverage companies will do anything they can to not pay off... If you file with your company, you will only be out your deductible, and if they collect from Titan, you'll get that back.
Now, the other thing... does this bother anyone else?
"my girlfriend tends to be a female version of Joe Pesci"
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"my girlfriend tends to be a female version of Joe Pesci"
Yeah, I'm thinking looks (short and balding), while I am absolutely sure he's referring to the temperment of some of the characters Mr. Pesci has portrayed on screen (the film "Casino" comes to mind).
:P It's Friday! Hope we're all light hearted this afternoon!
The unlicensed driver was not specifically excluded on the policy with Titan and they know it. Titan is on it. Get back to Titan and tell them to pay or you will sue them for "Failure to Settle in Good Faith".
What they quoted GF over the 'phone is not within their policy provisions. Sic em! :mad: :mad: :mad:
She was driving the car with the owner of the car in the passenger seat. Therefore, she had de facto permission and, thereby, authorization to drive the car unless he can show he was kidnapped or otherwise under extreme duress.
tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper
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tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper
I don't see the beef. If it was me I would just want my repair payed for with no hassle. Sounds like your girl friend is going to create allot of unneeded drama for you, her, and your neighbor.
If he wants to pony up the cash, just take the money, fix the car and be done with it.
If he is afraid of an insurance claim, the report is only to document that the accident occurred (keeps 'em honest) and will usually assign fault...after all, if it didn't assign fault (more often than not) he wouldn't be afraid of the report...
So, if he ponies up the cash to fix your car and pay for your injuries (if any), then the report is filed away...but if you get any hassle about paying for ANYTHING, call his insurance and tell him he blew his chance...
The other thing he may fear is being issued a ticket for the wreck, which may cause him to lose his license if he has too many points...my answer is...TOO BAD...you should not run the risk of losing your right to file with his insurance (or yours, either...the report will show YOUR insurance that you were not at fault, so your rates will not go up if you make a collision claim)...any courtesy you offer him will certainly backfire on you if he is even 2% dishonest or belligerent...
Remember marsha's law...NO GOOD DEED GOES UNPUNISHED
Should I ask for anything over and above the cost of the repairs themselves to offset the diminished value of this car following the accident?
Are there criminal implications since they used the car for unauthorized purposes and caused damage? I am located in Kentucky if that makes a difference.
The paint work and repairs would cause diminished value in a Corvette to future buyers.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I was first called by the police to let me know that my car was involved in the accident and that they were completing a hit and run report on the accident.
So this has been document formally.
Oh, and if THEY were injured in the wreck, be sure they are classified as nonpermissive users, so that they canot make a claim on your PIP/medpay for their injuries...they were authorized to drive it out of the garage and onto the parking lot, but not go for a joyride...
You have definitely suffered diminished value, probably 10%-30% of the retail value of your car. It depends a lot on mileage, condition, previous repair work to your car (if you suffered a previous major collision, just forget about a DV claim this time around), etc.
There were no injuries although the owner of the fence they hit is looking to have his fence repaired and the police did take my insurance info from the ins card I keep in the car.
I forgot to mention that on top of it all, they installed the WRONG radio!
The car just hit 30k miles, never in an accident, excellent condition. I'll used Edmunds to calc a retail value and use the 10-30% range to judge a DV.
Anything else I should know?
So, I thought if a wreck was paid by one cash instead of insurance money, I thought it would never be placed on Carfax...hence, carfax would be fairly reliable, but not infallible, simply because few folks actually will pay for major repairs with cash and use insurance instead...
Is my theory wrong???
Every time I hear something like this, I get a queasy feeling...
Maybe you want to handle this differently... but, as soon as I found out what happened, I would have sworn out a criminal complaint, then called my insurance company... Businesses that don't want to use insurance, especially on a $5K+ claim, just might not have insurance..
So, your car is in the body shop for 4-6 weeks.... and at the end of that time, maybe they won't pay, or they forgot the details of the agreement. Then what? Call your insurance company about your car being stolen by stereo installers, who fled the scene? And, oh, by the way, that was two months ago... :surprise:
Don't cut these guys any slack... they wrecked your Corvette!
Just my $0.02
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I have said before that most ins policies have either a 30 or 60 day time frame in order to report an accident for coverage...as long as everything goes well, he has some time...if not, have his insuarcne fix it under collision and then let ins sue the company...
Just a thought...I am anticipating (cautiously) cooperation from the company, since they have done some serious wrong...
OTOH, if they go bankrupt, he could be left holding the bag...
If the damage estimate is obtained, for protection have the company cut an immediate check to pay for repairs, plus DV...if they do it, you have enough time for the check to clear (or bounce)...
If they refuse, or the check bounces, then call your collision immediately and take it from there...that may be a reasonable solution, giving the company time to make good on the claim, yet protect yourself with a claim to your own ins within the alloted time frame your policy requires...
Just a random thought from a random guy...
If part of a franchise - you have additional source of recovery.
If a one shop op - how long have they been in business & what is their reputation?
But you are correct, CARFAX is NOT 100% reliable by any means.
I have come across any number of cars with serious prior damage that have a clean CARFAX report. Why this happens I haven't a clue but since I knew the cars intimately I knew they were damaged. One Miata had been hit three times, totalling $18,000 in damages, and it has a clean CARFAX report. Another BMW had been crushed in the side by a runaway truck and that has a clean CARFAX as well.
Go figure.
You need to look at your policy which is a contract. Under the payment of loss provisions or what they will pay for in the event of a loss , it will state the amount that they will pay based on their investigation of the claim or whether they are taking one of several options which they get to choose. If you aren't covered for rental expenses, for example, you can not expect your insurer to collect for that loss either as they can contractually only collect the amount of loss they paid and your deductible.
Under a typical policy one states:
Subrogation
If WE pay any PERSON under this policy, WE will be subrogated to all rights to recovery, based on the same DAMAGES that the PERSON receiving the payment may have against any other PERSON liable for those DAMAGES. This provision does not apply to payments under Parts ll and Parts lll.
Any INSURED or other PERSON who receives payment under this policy, agrees to sign and deliver legal instruments to US, and do whatever else necessary to secure OUR rights.
Any INSURED, or other PERSON who receives payment under this policy, agrees to cooperate with US in enforcing our rights and do nothing (you can't sue them before we have first crack at them) to prejudice our rights.
The only advantage of going through the other party's insurer is that you most likely will be compensated for a rental, usually a super sub compact unless you stress you are entitled to be driving a vehicle similar to what you are currently driving (for example an suv escalade). Good luck on that one unless you are being represented by an attorney or they think you have the funds to hire an attorney. Insurers whether they will admit it or not, profile you as someone that they can push over or one that may be confrontational.
Remember the other party's insurer does not owe you until you legally prove your loss. They are only trying to settle your loss on their terms to avoid litigation as it is their duty to their insured not you. He who holds the gold has the power. Most high level Insurance adjusters are highly trained negotiaters with business degrees.
Unless you know your legal rights you may be no match for them. They are trained to settle with you on the amount they feel is fair. It is their job to pay as little on a claim as possible to keep their company profitable. They are most times paid with bonuses on how little it takes for them to settle a claim known as severity.
Even though they do not have the contractual right or authority to tell you how to repair your car and with what kind of parts, most people fall in line with their presumed authority. If you want to use their money to fix your car, most likely you are going to be limited to their terms of settlement unless they fear you know more than you do. Their insured is legally liable to pay whatever is necessary to put you in pre loss condition and their insurance company promised them that they will do just that. So if you feel they did not pay an amount necessary, you may still be able to sue in small claims for the difference you may have out of pocket or your DV.
The advantages of using your own policy is that the contract requires your insurer to place you in a position as good as you held prior to the loss, commonly refered to as pre-loss condition. If they fail to pay an amount to put you in that position they may have failed to live up to the terms of the policy. Perhaps if they are abhorent at settling your loss they might be found in breach of contract. Anytime your insurer refuses to pay for a procedure or certain repair, you need to ask them to show you in your policy where it specifically refers to their reasoning.
Most states have unfair claims practices acts in the statutes or codes of regulations for insurance departments. They really do not like you to know these exist in my experience. One of those statutes in my state for example says that a policy holder can not be canceled for any negligence that is not their own. This means claims for hail damage, vandalism, damage due to the other guy that didn't have coverage, or for those claims you are afraid to submit when you were not occupying your vehicle in the parking lot, can not be used to cancel your coverage. an insurer always has the right to non renew you at renewal time. So why wouldn't it pay for you to be assertive in your contractual rights regarding how your property is to be repaired, after all they have promised to place you in a position you had prior to t
The only advantage of going through the other party's insurer is that you most likely will be compensated for a rental, usually a super sub compact unless you stress you are entitled to be driving a vehicle similar to what you are currently driving (for example an suv escalade). Good luck on that one unless you are being represented by an attorney or they think you have the funds to hire an attorney. Insurers whether they will admit it or not, profile you as someone that they can push over or one that may be confrontational.
Remember the other party's insurer does not owe you until you legally prove your loss. They are only trying to settle your loss on their terms to avoid litigation as it is their duty to their insured not you. He who holds the gold has the power. Most high level Insurance adjusters are highly trained negotiaters with business degrees.
Unless you know your legal rights you may be no match for them. They are trained to settle with you on the amount they feel is fair. It is their job to pay as little on a claim as possible to keep their company profitable. They are most times paid with bonuses on how little it takes for them to settle a claim known as severity.
Even though they do not have the contractual right or authority to tell you how to repair your car and with what kind of parts, most people fall in line with their presumed authority. If you want to use their money to fix your car, most likely you are going to be limited to their terms of settlement unless they fear you know more than you do. Their insured is legally liable to pay whatever is necessary to put you in pre loss condition and their insurance company promised them that they will do just that. So if you feel they did not pay an amount necessary, you may still be able to sue in small claims for the difference you may have out of pocket or your DV.
The advantages of using your own policy is that the contract requires your insurer to place you in a position as good as you held prior to the loss, commonly refered to as pre-loss condition. If they fail to pay an amount to put you in that position they may have failed to live up to the terms of the policy. Perhaps if they are abhorent at settling your loss they might be found in breach of contract. Anytime your insurer refuses to pay for a procedure or certain repair, you need to ask them to show you in your policy where it specifically refers to their reasoning.
Most states have unfair claims practices acts in the statutes or codes of regulations for insurance departments. They really do not like you to know these exist in my experience. One of those statutes in my state for example says that a policy holder can not be canceled for any negligence that is not their own. This means claims for hail damage, vandalism, damage due to the other guy that didn't have coverage, or for those claims you are afraid to submit when you were not occupying your vehicle in the parking lot, can not be used to cancel your coverage. an insurer always has the right to non renew you at renewal time. So why wouldn't it pay for you to be assertive in your contractual rights regarding how your property is to be repaired, after all they have promised to place you in a position you had prior to t