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Questions About Auto Insurance and Accidents

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Comments

  • cccompsoncccompson Member Posts: 2,382
    When you are sued in any forum, you notify your insurance carrier and they are obligated to defend. Now, exactly how they might do that is up to them. In the realm of small claims, it might actually be to their advantage to have an adjustor appear on their behalf.

    While it's true that small claims courts are designed to work without lawyers, if there is a small claims court anywhere in the United States, Mr. Shiftright, that bars an attorney from representing a defendant, I'd like to know what it is and on what authority.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    California bars attorneys from Small Claims Court:

    http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/selfhelp/smallclaims/scbasics.htm#bringlawyer

    And it's my understanding that many states do.

    Which I agree with, by the way.
  • cccompsoncccompson Member Posts: 2,382
    Well, contrary to the sweeping language used in the link, attorney representation is not, in fact, barred by Sec. 116.530 of the CA Code of Civil Procedure. The right is, however, limited to very narrow circumstances (not applicable in the OP's situation).
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Oh that's interesting. When do they allow it? Does it say anywhere? I'd like to know that for future reference. I thought it was a real no-no.
  • cccompsoncccompson Member Posts: 2,382
    Basically, it's only allowed when an attorney is a principal in a law firm or representing her/his self. There's a link to the language on your linked site. Seems like a natural exception.

    The rule is entirely different here in Ohio - see Sec. 1925.01 of the Ohio Revised Code - where attorneys are always allowed to represent the parties.

    While I have much sympathy for your view, given the high ($7500?) limit in CA, I sure as hell would not want to have to defend myself without counsel if I was being sued for 5 grand or more.
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    of $7500 is quite low, IMO...in GA, Magistrate Court, which allows lawyers, has a limit fo $15K, and I wish they would raise it to $25K...there are many simple citizen cases where damages, whether auto accident, or damages at home, or simple contract damages will easily exceed $10K, which, in litigation today, really ain't a lot of money...

    If sued for auto injuries, you are obligated, usually, by contract, to notify your ins company...often, they will NOT send anyone to Magistrate Court (small claims court) simply to see how the Judge decides...we have a quirk here in GA, the party that loses in Magistrate Court has the right to appeal within 30 days to one of 2 higher courts, State Court or Superior Court, where rules of evidence apply, and it is a court of record...

    It is called a "De Novo" appeal, meaning it is a brand new case, so even tho you may have lost at small claims, it is now a moot point, as the process starts over as tho you had never filed suit before...this is where your ins company has lawyers to defend you and they fight the suit on your behalf and pay out if you lose...
  • cccompsoncccompson Member Posts: 2,382
    Well, my perspective of "low" has been shaped by the limit here in Ohio - $3000.

    And you raise a good point (at least for the OP) - in reviewing CA procedure, the plaintiff has no right of appeal but a defendant does.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Yes the defendant can appeal in California.

    I think the very idea of Small Claims was to keep litigation affordable. If you let attorneys in, that all goes out the window.

    Small Claims as it is, is a pretty level playing field, which is why I think it's the best source of justice available to a citizen, given the limits of his/her claim.

    Nor do I think the claims level should be raised in Small Claims. This prevents punitive or endlessly dragged out ligitation on "smaller" matters.

    Small Claims is for refrigerators, bad paint jobs, modest used car disputes---pretty "cut and dry" stuff. It's not for medical malfeasance during brain surgery :P
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    I agree with you, but medmal cases are not heard in Small claims court...

    I guess with inflation I don't see $25K as too much to sue w/o involving lawyers...after all, what does it take to do, say, $18K in damages to a Mercedes, Expedition, Audi, Caddy or even a Buick???...to keep the limit so low as under $10K is, to me, ridiculous...$15K in GA is a nice step, but $25K, IMO would be more reasonable...

    Mind you, that does not MANDATE anything...you can still take a $5,000 case to Superior Court if you want to, but, if you want the People's Court, raising the limit in Small Claims simply allows more cases to be heard, more than the $500 scratched refrigerator cases...

    Also, something I forgot to mention, either party that loses in Magistrate has the right of de novo appeal...
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    But then it's not "small" claims court anymore.

    It's supposed to be a "small change" type of system.

    for a $25,000 claim, you can afford a lawyer and a lawyer might make sense.

    Small Claims is the roll of the dice after all, decided (often) in a few minutes by a person who may or may not even be a judge, and who may not know all the ins and outs of the laws being debated.

    I personally wouldn't roll a $25,000 set of dice in Small Claims.
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    differently...gas used to be 50 cents, now $4.00...the standard American car, the Impala, used to cost under 10 grand, now probably closer to 30, even tho it is not the same size car it used to be...I just do not see that $25K is so great an amount, and, remember, just because that is the limit does not mean every case will have that amount demanded...

    But, if a contractor performed shoddy work, and a home remodel for just a room or two can break $25K, or a shoddy repair of a Cadillac, it would be nice to be able to sue, without an attorney, for amounts up to $25K...

    Remembering that either side has the right to appeal to a higher court, I do not see this as a problem...for every loser that does NOT appeal, the system has now been un-clogged by one less case filed by some scummy lawyer, I mean some highly skilled underpaid attorney...:):):):):):):)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    This looks like a good book for people interesting in Small Claims Court:

    http://www.amazon.com/Everybodys-Guide-Small-Claims-California/dp/0873378075

    Essentially I see Small Claims as a simplification process. Small amounts, private parties disputes only (in most cases), simplified rules of evidence, no attorneys, depositions, complicated maneuvers, etc. I'd hate to see this altered, although really the entire concept of Small Claims is relatively new to American history, so I guess any rule one can make up, one can change. It's a great way to get compensated for shoddy repairs and a great way to throw your deadbeat tenant out of the apartment...or to get your damage deposit back from your deadbeat landlord :shades:
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    simple process, simple evidence, no deps, almost always no attorneys, and keep costs down...

    I just see the amount in question as higher than you do, that's all...
  • satiresatire Member Posts: 71
    You took that wrong, satire. I guess that you're going to have to sue and learn the lesson in reverse.

    No sweet cheeks, I knew exactly what you were trying to do. All I did was "reverse" your point to prove that your point was in fact pointless.
  • cccompsoncccompson Member Posts: 2,382
    Only to one who already knows it all.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I guess my point was (clear as mud) that as the $$$ amount rises, the complications invariably rise with it, both in complexity of the issue and the maneuvers around it.
  • mitzijmitzij Member Posts: 613
    I recommend buzzing over to the 'real world trade in values' thread and putting the particulars of your car in and seeing what the experts there say your hotrod is worth. I may have missed it in the pile of heated words, but hoow many miles does this Benz have on it?
  • smashedcar22smashedcar22 Member Posts: 2
    :cry: Hi! I own a 2008 Prius and was in an accident which wasn't my fault. The other drivers insurance says the damage is around 12K. What is the process for determining and pursuing a diminshed value claim? They are about to begin repair on the car.

    Thanks
  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    Does their estimate include the Hidden Damage not usually found until the body shop tears into it? You could be looking at a total.

    If the roof was bent out of shape, will the new windshield never leak?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    You hire an appraiser for a DV appraisal and you submit it after the car is all fixed up. It's like a "second round" for you.

    There are different kinds of DV and it doesn't necessarily have to include anything about the repairs being done poorly or inferior parts being used. Even if the car was fixed perfectly and looks fabulous, you can still have Diminished Value.

    You WILL have diminished value, in fact, on a $12,000 hit. That's a given.
  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    you submit it after the car is all fixed up.

    The draft that pays to have it fixed has a "Release" statement just above where the Claimant signs the draft over to the body shop. Doesn't that "Release" say "Accepting this payment releases the insurer and insured from any and all claims arising as a result of the accident stated herein."

    After signing the "Release" how do you still have a position to seek DV?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    No this is a third party claim. The poster never signed any contract with the other party's insurance company.

    I believe you might be referring to medical claims.

    You can't sue your own insurance company (in some states) for DV, but I haven't heard that you can't sue on a third party claim.

    But then, I don't know insurance law in all 50 states. In California, you certainly can file a DV claim.
  • cccompsoncccompson Member Posts: 2,382
    Don't see how you addressed euphonium's point - a full settlement and release is exactly that. A partial release (such as for medical claims only) would be a different matter.

    This does raise an interesting question though - is DV part and parcel of a property damage claim or is it separate? It seems to me that it is the former.
  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    Agreed. It is a direct result of the crash which makes it part of the total claim.
  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    Can DV be claimed under Uninsured Motorist Property Damage Liability?

    Question is asked because your own carrier pays under your policy for UMPD.
    However.............
    In that you're buying PD Liability for the adverse party, I opine the UMPD should include DV.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Oh I thought I did. My opinion is that third party DV claims are simply not governed by the insurance contract at all, but rather by the law of torts.

    So basically you are demanding that the insurance company make restitution for its negligence in restoring the full value of your loss.

    Of course, most insurance companies will karate chop you the minute you bring up a DV claim, but they cannot legally refuse to accept consideration of such a claim IMO.
  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    "A tort is a legal wrong. Tort law is a branch of the civil law; the other main branches are contract and property law.

    DV is resultant damage of an at fault crash otherwise known as a legal wrong. The at fault insurance company includes the DV to be paid under the Insured's Property Damage Liability coverage. Other items payable under PD Liability are Rental Expense, Loss of Use, & other expenses that are a result of the crash.

    As in other facets of the claim, the innocent party has to prove and present his DV claim to the Claims Manager of the opposing company.
  • funkypetalsfunkypetals Member Posts: 1
    Hello everyone! My name is Jennifer and I'm 27 yrs old. I have a concern about my explorer. She is a 94 Eddie edition and recently someone didn't notice I was at a red light and hit me. Any way long story short the insurance company is NOT going to fix her. I'm so upset! I LOVE THAT TRUCK. The insurance company gave a quote of only $1500. I know this is Edmunds and I checked here and its about average for her. My question is why are there so many different quotes? I checked KBB and its almost double there saying at least $3200. I just want to make sure the insurance company is not ripping me off. Please let me know...I really just wanted my truck fixed and not the aggravation of a settlement. :cry:
  • mikefm58mikefm58 Member Posts: 2,882
    Post over on "Real World Trade In values", but be ready to be disappointed. SUVs have taken a killing with gas prices so high. Also, I wouldn't trust any of the online guides as they just can't keep up with the changing times. Blame it all on the price of gas.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    It depends on how much damage there is versus the value of the vehicle in the "fair market". Kelley Blue Book is not necessarily fair market.

    Each price guide uses different methods and their "values" may represent different things. Kelley could be "dealer asking prices", or it could be "dealer selling prices as reported by the dealer" whereas Edmunds or someone else could be reporting private party REALIZED prices as gathered by Edmunds, not reported by a dealer.

    Guide books are just that "guide" books. The insurance company uses an appraiser and so should you, if you don't agree with them. Keep in mind that some states REQUIRE an insurance company to total a car if the percentage of damage is too high versus the Fair Market value.

    Before you hire your own appraiser, do some research, say on Craigslist, or autotrader.com, of COMPARABLE cars to yours---trim level, mileage, exterior and interior condition. An Eddie Bauer with 20,000 miles and pristine condition is not an Eddie Bauer with 120,000 miles and 4 dents in it.

    If you find in your research that the MAJORITY of the cars you see are NOT selling at Kelley's price, then chances are you shouldn't bother hiring an appraiser and going to arbitration to battle it out.

    Also if the damage estimate is very close to the Kelley Value, you probably will not get the car repaired even if they offer you more money.

    Here's a sample ad I found:

    http://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/car/708819160.html

    If you want to hire an appraiser, that will cost about $250. Then if the insurance company doesn't offer you more money, you will have to go to arbitration which will cost you about $300 for the referee + another fee for your appraiser to represent you. So it's going to cost you about $700 to fight the insurance company, and probably the referee will give you that back if nothing else.

    Personally, if I were you, I'd look around and find out what it REALLY would cost you to buy a substitute vehicle, and then ask for that amount, without going to your own appraiser. The insurance company may cough up. But if you shove a Kelley Blue Book in front of them, they aren't likely to dislodge their position based strictly on that evidence.
  • kominskykominsky Member Posts: 850
    Does anyone know of a way I can get a feel for insurance rates on one car vs. another? My 16yo daughter recently got her driver's license and we're starting to car shop. Right now, pretty much anything with 4-cyl, 4 wheels and an auto tranny is on the table. Would a 2-door civic be more expensive than a 4-door civic, all else being equal, for example? A VW cabrio more than a VW golf? (I'm assuming that the answers to both of those questions is yes). It gets much cloudier when the cars become a 2-door civic vs. a 2-door ford probe.

    I've been calling my insurance company with VINs to get rates, but since so many different cars are being looked at, it's getting to be a real pain in the butt.

    I guess I'm looking for some database of cars that provides an "insurability" rating of some sort. Where I can quickly and easily see that car "A" would be ~20% more expensive to insure than car "B". Again, I don't need $$ amounts, just something with relative costs. Anyone know of any such thing?

    Thanks!!
  • mikefm58mikefm58 Member Posts: 2,882
    Not sure if there is some database of cars, but if you go to progressive.com and do an estimate, you can then easily change the vehicle and see the corrsponding rate adjustment.
  • tidestertidester Member Posts: 10,059
    While you're waiting for more replies here you may want to have a look at Auto advice: car buying, auto leasing, car insurance at Edmunds.

    tidester, host
    SUVs and Smart Shopper
  • michaellnomichaellno Member Posts: 4,120
    When I went through this exercise with my step-kids a few years ago, my insurance agent basically said that a 4-door sedan is the least expensive body type to insure.

    You might want to chat with your agent to see if they agree.

    And, I know I've said this more than once on these boards, but I strongly believe that the kid new driver should pay their own insurance, plus have an amount in the bank equal to the deductible on the policy.
  • kominskykominsky Member Posts: 850
    "And, I know I've said this more than once on these boards, but I strongly believe that the kid new driver should pay their own insurance, plus have an amount in the bank equal to the deductible on the policy"

    That's all covered.. I must be doing something right since she keeps telling me "it's not fair!". ;)
  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    she keeps telling me "it's not fair!".

    The only time I heard that was when I took back her car keys for a week & when she started to rant some more, I said you just lost the privilege for two weeks. Want to try for a month? :cry:
  • michaellnomichaellno Member Posts: 4,120
    I never had to rescind driving privileges from either of the step kids, but the step-son had to cover the deductible a couple of times for some 'oopsies'.

    The agreement was that the savings covered the deductible, then they couldn't resume driving until that amount was replentished in the savings account.
  • satiresatire Member Posts: 71
    Hi Jennifer:

    Am going thru the same thing (scroll back a few messages) wherein the other person's insurance company won't offer a reasonable/fair settlement. I've chosen small claims court as the method of resolution. Let the judge decide. Court date is July 11th.

    I'm suing the lady who hit me, not her insurance carrier. Cost $75 to file the claim. $30 for the sheriff to serve the summons. Took all of 10 minutes to get it done.

    Best of luck.
  • satiresatire Member Posts: 71
    There are such databases but they are proprietary information owned by the insurance companies. Thus you're just going to have to do you own foot work. But get an insurance broker involved. Let them do the hard work.
  • kominskykominsky Member Posts: 850
    Thanks to all! I found something that, while not exactly what I wanted, is close enough for my current needs. If anyone's interested...

    http://moneycentral.msn.com/marketplace/home.aspx?iMarketID=8

    At the top, there's a pull-down with auto brands.

    I'm not exactly sure how they choose the cars on the list.. Chevy Cavalier (no longer made) is there, but Nissan 200SX (also no longer made) isn't. But again, it's a start.
  • phisherphisher Member Posts: 175
    If you don't need Comp and Coll. on the auto all cars should be about the same to insure. The only real differences for my Company is if they have an airbag or not. It's when you get into full coverage that the rates really change based on the car.
  • pjuser1pjuser1 Member Posts: 7
    Hi, All,

    I'd really appreciate it if I can get some advice on my case.

    My car was parked legally on a downtown street a couple weeks ago. When I returned to my car a few hours later, the back of the car was smashed. Police left a notes for me to call.

    While I was examing the damage, someone came by. Apparently, he was the witness and he saw a Lowe delivery truck hit my car, and was fleeing the scene. He and a few others chased down the driver. The driver claimed that he didn't see the crash.

    Anyway, they called police and filed a police report.

    I contacted my insurance company (Geico). They immediately contacted Lowes. They fully admitted that it was their fault, and I was asked to work with their insurance company.

    Here is the problem:

    The insurance company has been very difficult to deal with. They called me and said "we plan to declare your car a total lost. And we'll offer you $6,000. And minus the savage value. We'll not keep your car."

    I asked "why do I have to take the car back". They said that "because we don't keep your car". I pressed "it's illegal for you to force me to take the car back". She said "well, what do you want? do you want to take the car back or not"? I said that "I cannot make a decision until I got all of the information you promised me."

    The interaction with this company has been like this -- I really think they're walking a fine line -- some of the stuff they're doing are not legal technically, I think.

    Anyway, here are my questions:
    1) am I better off if I ask my own insurance company to handle this? (geico is my own insurance company, and they seems to be much easy to deal with, although I haven't talked to them about numbers yet.)

    2) how should I negotiate with this other insurance company? is this pretty typical of how insurance company works?

    3) how should I come up with a fair assessment of the market value of my car? I'm looking at the "appraisal" section of Edmunds. I'll check KBB.com as well. Are their data accurate?

    4) Would it help if I contact Lowes to complain about the insurance company? This is completely their fault, and they need to take care of it.
    thanks in advance for any tips you might have.
    thanks.
  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    Because your car was vacant when hit, there is no chance of a Bodily injury Liability Claim. The enables Lowe's carrier to give you a bad time.

    Settle with Geico because you work better with them. Eventually, they will subrogate and you will get most if not all of your deductible back.
  • pjuser1pjuser1 Member Posts: 7
    Thanks.

    A couple of questions:
    1) I've spent quite a bit of time taking time off to go to the body shop, and deal with this matter. can i ask for compensation?

    2) i'm still waiting for the at-fault party's insurnace company to get back to me (they're waiting for savage value report.) can I switch to my own insurance company now? will the other insurance company asks me to pay for the rental that they've been providing me?
  • marsha7marsha7 Member Posts: 3,703
    on this...you could call Lowes (they won't be happy that their driver was a hit and run) and complain that you are poorly treated by their insurance...that may or may not work...

    The easiest would be to let Geico to total your car, take your car, and let them go after Lowes, and yes, you will get your deductible back...the drawback I see to this is this: is it truly damaged so badly that GEICO will also total it???...you might be upset if Geico said they could fix it for $4,000, and you will wish you could bring back the "total" from the idiots at Lowes...if there are $10K in damages, so that ANY ins would total it, you're OK with Geico...

    Check all sources for what your car is reasonably worth...the operative phrase is "reasonably worth"...if it is a Honda Accord, currently in demand with $4.00 per gallon gas, you may get decent value...if you have an Expedition, don't be surprised if Internet values are way too high...here is GA, dealers have signs out front that say right up front "we will NOT take your SUV in trade"...so the Explorer that KBB says is worth $10K may now be worth $4K in the real world, since no one wants a gas guzzler...

    Sadly, your time going back and forth to the body shop has no compensable value...Lowes should pay for the car rental, but, keep in mind, once you are paid for your total, they really do not have to pay for a rental anymore...sometimes they will for an extra day or so, but don't hold your breath...

    Be careful what you wish for, you might get it...

    Send me your name and address, so I can bill you for my time...:):):):):)...when's the last time you heard of a cheap lawyer???

    Uh, OK, here, and only here, am I a cheap lawyer, but, I gotta tell ya, this pro bono stuff is killing me... ;) :P :cry:
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    Uh, OK, here, and only here, am I a cheap lawyer, but, I gotta tell ya, this pro bono stuff is killing me...

    I can hear the anxiety from here....
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • euphoniumeuphonium Member Posts: 3,425
    The free advice doesn't end when you retire. I still get questions from former clients and current friends about insurance matters even though I officially retired over 10 years ago.

    My wife says it is a tribute to my level of professionality & so it is with you. ;)
  • satiresatire Member Posts: 71
    The one thing I 'd like to know is if the police charged the Lowes driver with hit and run. If not, why not?

    Just curious.

    Thanks and best of luck.
  • pjuser1pjuser1 Member Posts: 7
    Driver claimed that it was a very narrow street and he simply didn't notice that his truck hit my car. He was stopped after two people who lived nearby got on a bike and chased him down. I don't think the driver was charged, but I guess the police could pursue a case if they want. But, there are so many cases like this in the city I live, Police simply didn't have the time and resource for this type of case.
  • the_big_althe_big_al Member Posts: 1,079
    I remember when my truck was hit a few years back. While I was not at fault, the accident took out the front quarter of the vehicle resulting in a bent frame and almost the entire front end needing replacement. The other guys insurance didn't total it out although the vehicle was several years old and ony worth about 6 or 7K. The total cost to repair I think came to about 3 or 4K?? Add in 3 months of rental (it took 3 MONTHS to get the thing repaired) and the total cost went to about 5K. However the insurance would only cover about half the rental. I balked at that since it wasn't even my insurance covering it, nor was the accident my fault. The body shop had several several problems which I will not go into here (you can read this story over at Customer Service, the Good, Bad and the Ugly :D). They ended up covering the rest of the rental. I thought the truck was a totaler, but apparently even with the rental cost the insurance still decided to have it fixed.
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