Well, if he does work for them, then he should be fired. He's doing the worst job of advertising because he's reaching like 10 people who aren't in the market for a vehicle.
Ahem. Let's not feed those you believe to be trolls, and if they're genuine and you've already answered, let's just leave it be. Merci.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
I work as an internet manager at a Nissan dealership. I try to avoid giving prices right away and instead give the customer information on the vehicle and try to get them in for a test drive. Most have never seen the vehicle up close and I like them to decide that they like the car instead of just a payment. If they do insist on a price I will usually give them invoice or just above invoice right away. My commission is a flat no matter what they pay for the vehicle. I could really care less if my manager decides to sell the car for $2. Obviously this isn't going to happen. We'll do almost anything to sell a car except lose money. The reasoning from the big wigs up stairs is that they will spend a lot of money in the service department over the life of the car. I really love the fact that I can reduce the price of the vehicle so much to save people money and it doesn't affect my pay.
The real tight customers will use your service department as long as the car is under warranty. After that, they will clip coupons and head for the chain stores and other places.
It's too bad you have to cheap sell a good product.
The dealerships get paid by the manufacturer for warranty work and they have plenty of coupons I can clip. Chains I stay away from, might consider independent on older cars...they rarely have coupons.
>>The real tight customers will use your service department as long as the car is under warranty. After that, they will clip coupons and head for the chain stores and other places. <<* **
Why don't people use dealerships for repairs (outside of warranty)? Probably because they don't want to write a blank check to the dealership.
For example, I head to my local independent mechanic who does a great job on domestic vehicles. He will say, "On this brake job, I will need to replace the pads, grind the rotors, and you'll need an oil change. With materials and labor, it will be $200."
I head up to the local dealership and I get this, " On this brake job, I will need to replace the pads, grind the rotors, and you'll need an oil change. The parts will be $150 and labor is $75/hr." The car is finished in 90 minutes, and I have been charged for 2.5 hours of labor.
I do NOT understand why a dealership cannot quote a FIXED PRICE on a garden variety repair on one of its own vehicle.
As for couponing, I get as many coupons from dealers as i do from the chain shops.
I think most, if not all shops charge "book" time for labor.
A good mechanic with the right tools can often beat that time but you will still pay the book rate. On the other hand, he can run into a tough problem and you won't pay MORE than the book rate.
Sometimes, the independents are less money, other times not.
The only point I was trying to make, is not to assume a person buying a car intends to use that store for service work.
"I do NOT understand why a dealership cannot quote a FIXED PRICE on a garden variety repair on one of its own vehicle."
I have often thought of this also... probably because it is in the best intrest to the dealer. Lets say the dealer says a flat rate $75 for one hour to change the brakes and no more.... well what if the tech completes the job in 30 min? some customers would then wonder why they paid the $75 hour flat rate for a 30 min job.
well what if the tech completes the job in 30 min? some customers would then wonder why they paid the $75 hour flat rate for a 30 min job.
I've seen my car parked outside 20 minutes before they called me over intercom for payment. The cashier certainly wasn't busy. Maybe, they wanted me to think they were really working hard to fix my car so I wouldnt whine over their hourly rate.
Oh, they rip us off big time. I took an Explorer once to replace the side mirror. They quoted me $150 for 1.5h hours of labor because of the electrical work that has to be done. When I came to pick it up, the truck wasn’t ready. They told me it will be ready in fifteen minutes. I went outside to wait for it. I saw a tech pull the truck in, and he worked on it for exactly fifteen minutes. When I challenged the service writer, he sticks the book in my face and tells me that’s how they make money. I am sorry, $100 per hour for labor for hour worked is making money (damn good money), but $150x4=$600 per hour, that’s a rip off!
Isell, stop telling us that sometimes techs take longer than the book. Very infrequently that could be true, however, on average they charge at least double the hours they work. So, stop playing us. There is a reason why people squeeze the last dollar out of dealers, because they HATE you.
It is all a game using the "standard" costs rather than ACTUAL hours.
Most of the mechanics in MY family who have worked at dealerships are "earning" 10-11 hours per eight hour shift. That is why my brother always insists for quotes in dollars, not hours.
Personally, I use two or three excellent independents based upon the service needed. The only PROBLEM with these guys is that they generally have a 3-4 day backlog in their shops this time of year.
The hosts don't object to people expressing their opinions as long as they abide by the terms of use so I don't see why you would object to Isell expressing his. You've expressed your opinion though I think you should refrain from presuming to speak on behalf of others.
With regard to hours charged versus hours worked, the shop will charge what it takes to keep them in business and make a reasonable profit. Perhaps you would be happier had they listed the job as $150 for 0.25 hours instead of $150 for 1.5 hours? That $150 is what it takes to cover wages, benefits, insurance, (very substantial) overhead, (very substantial) capital costs, rent, electricity and so on with some profit thrown in.
The other side of the proverbial coin is that you can always go elsewhere for service and if the shop cannot make enough to remain in business then they won't.
And the "book" works the other way - I have seen many Master Mechanics put in extra hours to get the 40 paid per week. They do not make overtime, just the book hours for completed work.
As a person who, in a former life used to manage a LARGE repair facility, I can tell you, it isn't just dealers that use flat rate books.
" Stop playing us"
Have YOU ever run a shop and paid the bills it takes to keep the doors open?
" On average, they charge at least double the hours they work"
Oh, really? Where is Opatience or some of the other guys who work on cars on a daily basis?
I do have an idea for you. Go to a Vo-Tech school and spend years learning how to work on today's complicated cars. Then spend 40,000 for the tools you will need.
Good point. Most people don't have a clue what a tech spends on his tools and tool box. A couple of our guys (who have been around a long time) have $5k tool boxes. And the tech gets a percentage of the bill. Also, warranty work pays the dealer less than customer pay and warranties get longer and extended warranties are more prevalent than before.
After almot 20 years in the tool business, believe me, I know what these guys have invested in their toolboxes. These aren't the do-it-yourself Craftsman stuff.
They can spend 5000.00 and more JUST on the toolbox itself!
They can spend 300.00 on a tool that will enable then to shave 15 minutes off a two hour job.
People don't realize, yes, some jobs are what they call "gravy jobs". With a lot of experience and the right tools, they can beat the flat rate time on these jobs. Certainly not by HALF as someone suggested but they can doo allright.
Then there are the vexatious jobs that are impossible to even hit book time on. Rattles, intermittent problems, water leaks etc. They hate these jobs and for good reason.
A friend of mine is a Ford Tech and he said one of the warranty companies they use has really tightened up the times. No mechanic likes doing warranty work but some manufactures are better than others.
It isn't easy and it takes a toll on the body too. You won't see many older guys behind the wrench.
"I do NOT understand why a dealership cannot quote a FIXED PRICE on a garden variety repair on one of its own vehicle."
I my experience they do. They do add on taxes and "shop supplies" fee.
I for one, love auto techs and auto service facilities. I am thankful that I can give them a little bit of my money to do things I don't want to do and/or do not know how to do. Yes some things may cost more than I think they should, on the other hand I can usually get an oil change for about $20...I would pay double or triple that, if I had to, in order to not do it myself.
If I had a mirror needing repair or replacement, however, I would go to a body shop. They have much lower labor rates.
They can spend 5000.00 and more JUST on the toolbox itself
You would think the dealership would buy a bunch of tools with all the money they make, and everyone would share them. They must be afraid people will walk off with them.
OK we get it. The dealership repair shops are expensive. They always have been. The local independent is cheaper but you have that 4 day wait. (the indie guy I use is closer to a week) You have to pay for the convience.
A few years ago, my crappy Toyota truck blew a head gasket. I took it to a local guy who charged me $150 less than the dealer wanted. When I got it back the engine made funny noises and the gasket blew out again 3000 miles later. Took it to the Toyota dealer who fixed it the same day and the gasket never was a problem again.
Moral of the story, you get what you pay for--unless you can wait 4 days for an appointment.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Not always. Just utilized a dealer for the first time ever for (at least to me) what was an expensive procedure - a timing belt replacement on a 4Runner. Unfortunately, things did not go smoothly at Tansky Toyota in Columbus.
Made the appointment a week in advance for 12/6 and dropped it off the evening of 12/5. After they didn't call to say it was ready, I called them after 6 PM on 12/6 and was told it wasn't ready, they were working short that day, but I could pick it up on Sat., 12/8, between 8 and 4. They did offer a free rental which was declined.
Again, they didn't call to say it was ready so I called them again on the morning of 12/8 and was told, sorry, the service department was closed for inventory.
Called early Mon., 12/10, to learn they'd just "invoiced" it. Picked it up that night. They held to their quote but failed to address one tiny (but PIA) problem - missing fasteners on the bug shield ("we should have some laying around") and the old timing belt and water pump were nowhere to be found.
The experience made me appreciate how well Hugh White has handled the service work on our Hondas.
The warranty time for engine replacement on one of our cars is 12 hours. It can't be done in that amount of time it is impossible. The first time our shop foreman did one it took him nearly 24 hours to do it.
He has done a couple of them now and can do it faster but he still can't hit 12 hours. I think the best he can do is 18 hours.
I think it really depends upon the individual establishment’s management rather than dealer versus independent. I have had good and bad experiences at both.
Dealer 1 – Acura Took the car in for a warranty item. Not only could they not find the issue, they talked me into a 30K service. In a weak moment I said yes. $700 later and a call to try to upsell me more “service” I look into it more and find out that I paid several hundred for “inspections”. Complained to the SM and when he was looking at my file I saw notes in there to call and upsell. That ticked me off even more. There was another exasperated owner paying a $765 for a 30K service on a TL. This one was my fault. These guys taught me lesson. The service area was a huge profit center for the dealer.
Dealer 2 – Infiniti Sent me a coupon for complete complementary inspection. I know they hope to get future work from these, but I took advantage of it with a $20 oil change special. Service area and lounge was first rate. After an hour and a complete comprehensive list of inspections, only recommended transmission fluid change, which I knew needed to be done. I let them do it and knowingly paid more. I would continue to use them, but they are not in the most convenient location. This is one dealer that I would gladly pay the going rate.
Independent A couple months after the dealer inspection I take it to the garage close to the office for an oil change and state inspection. They call two times to try to get me to power flush the engine and change the drive belts because they are cracked and will fail. I decline and when I get home and look at the belts, I don’t see any hairline cracks in the belts. Also find out later, they way overfilled the oil. Had to take it back to be drained and refilled. Won’t be going back there again.
The worst offense was actually Jiffy Lube. Out of desperation due to tight time schedule, I took a new car with a few thousand miles in for an oil change. While reading a magazine, I was interrupted and told that they needed to show me something on the car. What? They proceeded to show me all of the recommended things they should inspect and change. I said WTF, do you realize this car has a couple thousand miles on it, is brand new and covered under warranty? You got me out of the waiting room for this? Never been back.
I think the best thing is to find a shop, whether it be a dealer or independent that will discuss things with you and that you feel you can develop a relationship with and trust. It takes time and some work and a few mistakes.
LOL, yep, they are the worst. Long ago when I was young and foolish, I took my vehicle to one after just changing the air filter. I was just looking for an oil & filter change and they came back with a long list of recommendations, which included a new air filter.
My best Jiffy Lube storie I have ever heard came from our service department fixing the mistake.
Guy goes into JL and gets hard sold allot of stuff that he refused. In the pitch the guy pointed out 3 times the point by point inspection they did. Well apperantley the inspection did not include making sure the "Tech" put the drain plug back on the pan. He made it less then 5 miles when the engine seized.
I have heard similar stories such as this... how in the world can a person drive a car and not notice a check engine light, low oil light, or some other indicator of a problem and run the car until the engine seizes?
Have been shopping for a couple of months now. Wanted to share my impressions so far.
There are so many alternatives that will theoretically work for us, we could literally spend months looking at all of them. Yay for the wide variety. No so yay for the time it takes to muddle through them all. We are not in a big hurry to buy, but we are ready to buy when the right car and deal come together. We have very few hard and fast requirements. Available seating for more than five, available generous cargo capacity, MPG that should reasonably expect to exceed low 20's in combined driving, top notch safety and predicted reliability. Yeah, our crystal ball is broken too. :P Bells and whistles and gadgets just don't get our attention so much.
Online shopping and research is a great benefit for looking around. Manufacturer websites do a very good job of presenting info about available models and specs and possible configurations. There is tons of info available regarding safety, MPG estimates, and reliability outlooks. Sites such as Edmunds are really helpful with expert reviews, info regarding prices paid, and typical problems folks have experienced, the later taken with a grain of salt (people with problems tend to shout louder than folks who are happily experiencing bliss).
Dealer websites have been very disappointing. They tend to be flashy, showy, and very busy. Lots of animations and tons of functionality that displays the website designer's prowess. Problem is they don't usually tell you very much that is helpful, reliable, or up to date about the cars the dealer has available (for instance, one dealer website showed nearly 50 in stock for a model we were interested in, but came to find out they only had three and none like what we wanted). That is if there is any information about their inventory at all. Generally there is only the same info about the model in general that is already available from the manufacturers website. Usually only stock photos from the manufacturer are displayed, showing the top trim levels with the most expensive options. All the while they do let you know what a great dealer they are and how happy they would be to help you find your next car and how confident they are that you will be satisfied. If I would like, I could even watch a special video of their cute, usually blond spokesmodel, that is if the thirty minute infomercial last night wasn't enough.
All in all they amount to little more than fancy electronic brochures whose purpose is to get you onto the lot, talking with a salesperson, and test driving a new car. I am willing to travel a considerable distance to look at a car, but I want to know exactly what is available before I make that drive.
What I would like to see is the same info I could get from the window sticker. Show me that exact car. I would like to know the exact options that are on that specific car. Show me any options and accessories the dealer has added. Show me how the price breaks down, including any dealer prep fees and add-ons. (I will note that used car dealers tend to do a marginally better job with this on their websites.)
I understand the dealer wants to turn a car shopper into a car buyer. They trust that the most effective way to do this is to get the customer into the showroom, then on a test drive with a skilled salesperson asking pre-closing questions to deepen commitment. I don't really fault them for this, but I would like a little less flash and a little more helpful content on their websites.
Online contact with a dealer is hit or miss and also has been disappointing. Usually an email request for info is met with an automated, scripted response. Some dealers I have contacted recently have done better. But the last few days have been typical. I sent emails to five dealers asking if they had a particular 2007 model in stock. I was pretty detailed as to colors and options desired and what alternatives we would consider. So far four have responded. Three were automated "Thanks for contacting us, we're great, we'll be in touch shortly" types, and one immediately wanted to know when it would be convenient for me to come in for a test drive, please call to set up an appointment (that one is four hours away from me). None answered the simple "Do you have one like this in stock" question. Like I said, some fare better here. One recently sent info on models they had in stock that were at least similar to what I asked about and included detailed pricing all the way to an OTD price. Unfortunately nothing they had was close enough to what we were looking for. My email chat with the real person was very pleasant though.
Oh well, I have ranted enough. The search continues.
And so goes the future of internet shopping. Unfortunately, it's not very fine tuned.
It sounds like you don't know which vehicle you want yet. That's part of the problem. Once you know the specific vehicle, then you can start getting things done a lot quicker and more efficiently.
Why don't you call up the dealerships and talk to a salesman? (After you've picked the vehicle you want.)
I KNOW you'll find this to be a much quicker/easier thing than just e-mailing. Dealers are used to e-mail leads having only about a 6% closing ratio. Yup, that means that 6 out of 100 leads will turn into deals. No wonder they don't care too much. Now we could get into a chicken and egg discussion, but that's the way it is.
Call up and I think you'll find some salesman to be a bit more helpful.
One of the reasons that you wanted to e-mail may be because your time is important and you don't want a bunch of phone calls. Make this apparent to the salesman and let him know when you're looking to purchase.
As you noted, a dealers website is there to drive traffic to the store.
I doubt that you will find a dealer website that will give you all the info you want. Not because the dealer doesn't want to give it to you, but because it is virtually impossbile to do so. Most dealers inventories fluctuate too much for the on-line inventory to be accurate. most dealers have a 3rd party that is repsonsible for website maintenance, and they simply can't keep up w/ inventory changes.
We struggle with our site to keep the inventory striaght. Sometimes the maintenance co makes egregious errors on pricing or content on our cars. Next, no one can take the time to take pictures of the entire inventory. It is time consuming and chances are, the car would be sold before the picture would make the website. Not to mention the bandwidth issues. The only time a dealer will usually photo their cars is if the car is a used car.
The best thing to do is to contact the Internet Dept directly and go from there. Sounds like you have done that already. Now, I don't want to tell you how to buy a car,but to look for an 07 whatever at this time of year,and to be specific about color and content probably isn't going to work for you. What you are dealing with at this point is leftovers. Dealers want to move what they have. Depending on what you want, you may have to move to an 08, or even order the car if the color or equipment is unusual for your market. Good Luck!
Most dealers inventories fluctuate too much for the on-line inventory to be accurate
What... you sell 25-50 vehicles a day, you get 25-50 in. Shouldn't be difficult at all to keep track of inventory. We're talking about large $20k automobiles, not pints of ice cream sold on the 4th of July. When I worked at a grocery store, during college, took me about an hour to inventory 800 items. Cut and Paste, bing bang boom you're done. Seems like more of a sales gimmick to me. "ya we got the Bratmobile XRL... come on in", knowing full well it's been 2 months since the inventory was updated.
Yes, that feature on the Ford site is closer to the level of info I would like to see. Much better, but unfortunately even it is not entirely accurate. I just used it to search for a 2008 Taurus X. I happen to know a local dealer only has 2 on their lot. They have had those 2 and only those 2 for the last three weeks. Drove by this afternoon and still just those 2. The Ford site showed the dealer having 4 available. Still, the representative window sticker was pretty good. BTW - I also know this dealer charges a $600 dealer fee and routinely has little add-ons on a supplemental sticker. This info is not available from the Ford site.
You're right. I have no doubt that if I knew that I wanted a Zingo MX with 2.7 V6, Ultra package, NAV, and upgraded sound system in White Lightning Pearlcoat. that any salesman lucky enough to get the call would be thrilled to write it up and the whole thing would be done in about an hour or two. But I am not there yet. Another part of the "problem" I suppose is that I am not enamored with any particular make or model, and I am not particularly loyal to any make. There are tons of vehicles on the market right now that would work for me.
Thing is the email I sent 2 days ago asked a question similar to "Do you have a 2007 Zingo MX with 2.7 V6, Ultra package, NAV, and upgraded sound system in White Lightening Pearlcoat in stock? If not, I'm willing to consider one in any other color." A simple question I thought. The only response that I think came from a real person was "When would be a good time to come in for a test drive?"
Some questions that come to mind for me.
Why should I expect a more forthcoming and relevant response if I call instead of email?
Just out of curiosity, what would you guess the typical closing ratio is for all customers who contact a dealer whether by phone, email, or in person? Certainly I would expect in person to be the highest, but how much higher is it?
With all due respect, I do take some exception. I design and maintain websites for a living (and train others to do so as well). It really should not be any more of a time consuming deal to keep a retail website up to date with accurate and complete information if it is set up properly. Yes, initial set up for a medium to large dealer would take some time. Once set up, it should be an automated no-brainer. I would guess that inventory is tracked and maintained by computer already. Correct me if I am wrong on that. At the very least, those window stickers sure look like they are generated by a computer. All those forms at the closing sure spit out of a printer. All the vehicles are assigned stock numbers for some reason. Point being there is a lot of data about those cars that exists in databases or some other electronic form. Tapping into that and posting on a website is not a very difficult thing to do. If all this data really is not kept on computers, then that is another issue altogether.
The photos might be a little more difficult to keep up with for a busy dealer. Stocks would work, but just wish they were more complete as well, not just the top trim and expensive options. I know, I know... Even on this it could be pretty automated.
My guess is that most dealerships just don't have many personnel that are interested in doing it. Frankly, website maintenance is mundane, boring tedium at its finest. Closing ratio appears low for internet leads, so there doesn't seem to be much incentive. So, get a site set up properly and train an administrative person to maintain it. Set up right and this person really shouldn't have to do much. Provide timely, accurate, and complete info on that site and I would bet that closing ratio just might go up a little.
Yes, I know that looking for anything '07 now is an iffy proposition. Ran into a particular model that one local dealer had plenty. Decided to check others in the area just to see if anyone might have a color I liked a little more.
Bingo on your answer! Though you could have made it simple just by saying, "the jipster is right." We know salespeople have all kinds of down time. Pay one of the saleguys $40 a day to keep it updated. Then advertise your online inventory is updated daily... Double Bingo!
Why should I expect a more forthcoming and relevant response if I call instead of email?
I think I touched on that in my other response. The closing percentage on e-mail is very low. Phone calls, however, are one of the best lead sources. I love phone calls. They are better than walk-ins.
Anyone remember the Joe Verde stats? Something like 78% of people who call on the phone are buyers.
At any rate, the first order of business is to find which car you want. Everything else should fall into place after that.
They have had those 2 and only those 2 for the last three weeks. Drove by this afternoon and still just those 2. The Ford site showed the dealer having 4 available.
It is possible the other two are on their way. Some dealers have told me that the manufacturer will update based on what they have shipped. Of course, it is also possible that the other two were sold...certainly that is the case for any 2007 models.
There are obviously some skilled web designers that have put together the sites, at least technically. Seems the thinking is let's make these things into online commercials to generate leads. I would think the quality of the lead would go up if a little more attention was given to the information on the site rather than the show.
Comments
I googled them and didn't see it but went back after your input...
I see that Autonation is #1....
I should have know who they were since I work for the #4 spot
Never actualy thought of looking that stuff up. Good stuff to know.
GP
You can email me and I'll deliver a car to you. How about that.
You can reach me at GP@DIRECTSTROKERS.COM
:P
GP
-Moo
-moo
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
I work as an internet manager at a Nissan dealership. I try to avoid giving prices right away and instead give the customer information on the vehicle and try to get them in for a test drive. Most have never seen the vehicle up close and I like them to decide that they like the car instead of just a payment. If they do insist on a price I will usually give them invoice or just above invoice right away. My commission is a flat no matter what they pay for the vehicle. I could really care less if my manager decides to sell the car for $2. Obviously this isn't going to happen. We'll do almost anything to sell a car except lose money. The reasoning from the big wigs up stairs is that they will spend a lot of money in the service department over the life of the car. I really love the fact that I can reduce the price of the vehicle so much to save people money and it doesn't affect my pay.
The real tight customers will use your service department as long as the car is under warranty. After that, they will clip coupons and head for the chain stores and other places.
It's too bad you have to cheap sell a good product.
Why don't people use dealerships for repairs (outside of warranty)? Probably because they don't want to write a blank check to the dealership.
For example, I head to my local independent mechanic who does a great job on domestic vehicles. He will say, "On this brake job, I will need to replace the pads, grind the rotors, and you'll need an oil change. With materials and labor, it will be $200."
I head up to the local dealership and I get this, " On this brake job, I will need to replace the pads, grind the rotors, and you'll need an oil change. The parts will be $150 and labor is $75/hr." The car is finished in 90 minutes, and I have been charged for 2.5 hours of labor.
I do NOT understand why a dealership cannot quote a FIXED PRICE on a garden variety repair on one of its own vehicle.
As for couponing, I get as many coupons from dealers as i do from the chain shops.
A good mechanic with the right tools can often beat that time but you will still pay the book rate. On the other hand, he can run into a tough problem and you won't pay MORE than the book rate.
Sometimes, the independents are less money, other times not.
The only point I was trying to make, is not to assume a person buying a car intends to use that store for service work.
Where do I send my check?
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
I have often thought of this also... probably because it is in the best intrest to the dealer.
Lets say the dealer says a flat rate $75 for one hour to change the brakes and no more.... well what if the tech completes the job in 30 min? some customers would then wonder why they paid the $75 hour flat rate for a 30 min job.
I've seen my car parked outside 20 minutes before they called me over intercom for payment. The cashier certainly wasn't busy. Maybe, they wanted me to think they were really working hard to fix my car so I wouldnt whine over their hourly rate.
Isell, stop telling us that sometimes techs take longer than the book. Very infrequently that could be true, however, on average they charge at least double the hours they work. So, stop playing us. There is a reason why people squeeze the last dollar out of dealers, because they HATE you.
Most of the mechanics in MY family who have worked at dealerships are "earning" 10-11 hours per eight hour shift. That is why my brother always insists for quotes in dollars, not hours.
Personally, I use two or three excellent independents based upon the service needed. The only PROBLEM with these guys is that they generally have a 3-4 day backlog in their shops this time of year.
The hosts don't object to people expressing their opinions as long as they abide by the terms of use so I don't see why you would object to Isell expressing his. You've expressed your opinion though I think you should refrain from presuming to speak on behalf of others.
With regard to hours charged versus hours worked, the shop will charge what it takes to keep them in business and make a reasonable profit. Perhaps you would be happier had they listed the job as $150 for 0.25 hours instead of $150 for 1.5 hours? That $150 is what it takes to cover wages, benefits, insurance, (very substantial) overhead, (very substantial) capital costs, rent, electricity and so on with some profit thrown in.
The other side of the proverbial coin is that you can always go elsewhere for service and if the shop cannot make enough to remain in business then they won't.
tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper
" Stop playing us"
Have YOU ever run a shop and paid the bills it takes to keep the doors open?
" On average, they charge at least double the hours they work"
Oh, really? Where is Opatience or some of the other guys who work on cars on a daily basis?
I do have an idea for you. Go to a Vo-Tech school and spend years learning how to work on today's complicated cars. Then spend 40,000 for the tools you will need.
See how much fun THAT is!
Good point. Most people don't have a clue what a tech spends on his tools and tool box. A couple of our guys (who have been around a long time) have $5k tool boxes. And the tech gets a percentage of the bill. Also, warranty work pays the dealer less than customer pay and warranties get longer and extended warranties are more prevalent than before.
They can spend 5000.00 and more JUST on the toolbox itself!
They can spend 300.00 on a tool that will enable then to shave 15 minutes off a two hour job.
People don't realize, yes, some jobs are what they call "gravy jobs". With a lot of experience and the right tools, they can beat the flat rate time on these jobs. Certainly not by HALF as someone suggested but they can doo allright.
Then there are the vexatious jobs that are impossible to even hit book time on. Rattles, intermittent problems, water leaks etc. They hate these jobs and for good reason.
A friend of mine is a Ford Tech and he said one of the warranty companies they use has really tightened up the times. No mechanic likes doing warranty work but some manufactures are better than others.
It isn't easy and it takes a toll on the body too. You won't see many older guys behind the wrench.
I my experience they do. They do add on taxes and "shop supplies" fee.
I for one, love auto techs and auto service facilities. I am thankful that I can give them a little bit of my money to do things I don't want to do and/or do not know how to do. Yes some things may cost more than I think they should, on the other hand I can usually get an oil change for about $20...I would pay double or triple that, if I had to, in order to not do it myself.
If I had a mirror needing repair or replacement, however, I would go to a body shop. They have much lower labor rates.
You would think the dealership would buy a bunch of tools with all the money they make, and everyone would share them. They must be afraid people will walk off with them.
-moo
A few years ago, my crappy Toyota truck blew a head gasket. I took it to a local guy who charged me $150 less than the dealer wanted. When I got it back the engine made funny noises and the gasket blew out again 3000 miles later. Took it to the Toyota dealer who fixed it the same day and the gasket never was a problem again.
Moral of the story, you get what you pay for--unless you can wait 4 days for an appointment.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Made the appointment a week in advance for 12/6 and dropped it off the evening of 12/5. After they didn't call to say it was ready, I called them after 6 PM on 12/6 and was told it wasn't ready, they were working short that day, but I could pick it up on Sat., 12/8, between 8 and 4. They did offer a free rental which was declined.
Again, they didn't call to say it was ready so I called them again on the morning of 12/8 and was told, sorry, the service department was closed for inventory.
Called early Mon., 12/10, to learn they'd just "invoiced" it. Picked it up that night. They held to their quote but failed to address one tiny (but PIA) problem - missing fasteners on the bug shield ("we should have some laying around") and the old timing belt and water pump were nowhere to be found.
The experience made me appreciate how well Hugh White has handled the service work on our Hondas.
He has done a couple of them now and can do it faster but he still can't hit 12 hours. I think the best he can do is 18 hours.
Not always, however. Labor rates aren't going to differ by much.
Depends on the meaning of "much". I see a range of about $60-100 per hour in my area.
Around here, most of the dealers are around 100.00/hr. and the independents aren't far behind. We shop them to stay competitive.
Other areas are even higher. I've heard that in San Francisco some of the shops that work on the exotics are upwards of 150.00/hr.
Dealer 1 – Acura
Took the car in for a warranty item. Not only could they not find the issue, they talked me into a 30K service. In a weak moment I said yes. $700 later and a call to try to upsell me more “service” I look into it more and find out that I paid several hundred for “inspections”. Complained to the SM and when he was looking at my file I saw notes in there to call and upsell. That ticked me off even more. There was another exasperated owner paying a $765 for a 30K service on a TL. This one was my fault. These guys taught me lesson. The service area was a huge profit center for the dealer.
Dealer 2 – Infiniti
Sent me a coupon for complete complementary inspection. I know they hope to get future work from these, but I took advantage of it with a $20 oil change special. Service area and lounge was first rate. After an hour and a complete comprehensive list of inspections, only recommended transmission fluid change, which I knew needed to be done. I let them do it and knowingly paid more. I would continue to use them, but they are not in the most convenient location. This is one dealer that I would gladly pay the going rate.
Independent
A couple months after the dealer inspection I take it to the garage close to the office for an oil change and state inspection. They call two times to try to get me to power flush the engine and change the drive belts because they are cracked and will fail. I decline and when I get home and look at the belts, I don’t see any hairline cracks in the belts. Also find out later, they way overfilled the oil. Had to take it back to be drained and refilled. Won’t be going back there again.
The worst offense was actually Jiffy Lube. Out of desperation due to tight time schedule, I took a new car with a few thousand miles in for an oil change. While reading a magazine, I was interrupted and told that they needed to show me something on the car. What? They proceeded to show me all of the recommended things they should inspect and change. I said WTF, do you realize this car has a couple thousand miles on it, is brand new and covered under warranty? You got me out of the waiting room for this? Never been back.
I think the best thing is to find a shop, whether it be a dealer or independent that will discuss things with you and that you feel you can develop a relationship with and trust. It takes time and some work and a few mistakes.
LOL, yep, they are the worst. Long ago when I was young and foolish, I took my vehicle to one after just changing the air filter. I was just looking for an oil & filter change and they came back with a long list of recommendations, which included a new air filter.
Guy goes into JL and gets hard sold allot of stuff that he refused. In the pitch the guy pointed out 3 times the point by point inspection they did. Well apperantley the inspection did not include making sure the "Tech" put the drain plug back on the pan. He made it less then 5 miles when the engine seized.
There are so many alternatives that will theoretically work for us, we could literally spend months looking at all of them. Yay for the wide variety. No so yay for the time it takes to muddle through them all. We are not in a big hurry to buy, but we are ready to buy when the right car and deal come together. We have very few hard and fast requirements. Available seating for more than five, available generous cargo capacity, MPG that should reasonably expect to exceed low 20's in combined driving, top notch safety and predicted reliability. Yeah, our crystal ball is broken too. :P Bells and whistles and gadgets just don't get our attention so much.
Online shopping and research is a great benefit for looking around. Manufacturer websites do a very good job of presenting info about available models and specs and possible configurations. There is tons of info available regarding safety, MPG estimates, and reliability outlooks. Sites such as Edmunds are really helpful with expert reviews, info regarding prices paid, and typical problems folks have experienced, the later taken with a grain of salt (people with problems tend to shout louder than folks who are happily experiencing bliss).
Dealer websites have been very disappointing. They tend to be flashy, showy, and very busy. Lots of animations and tons of functionality that displays the website designer's prowess. Problem is they don't usually tell you very much that is helpful, reliable, or up to date about the cars the dealer has available (for instance, one dealer website showed nearly 50 in stock for a model we were interested in, but came to find out they only had three and none like what we wanted). That is if there is any information about their inventory at all. Generally there is only the same info about the model in general that is already available from the manufacturers website. Usually only stock photos from the manufacturer are displayed, showing the top trim levels with the most expensive options. All the while they do let you know what a great dealer they are and how happy they would be to help you find your next car and how confident they are that you will be satisfied. If I would like, I could even watch a special video of their cute, usually blond spokesmodel, that is if the thirty minute infomercial last night wasn't enough.
All in all they amount to little more than fancy electronic brochures whose purpose is to get you onto the lot, talking with a salesperson, and test driving a new car. I am willing to travel a considerable distance to look at a car, but I want to know exactly what is available before I make that drive.
What I would like to see is the same info I could get from the window sticker. Show me that exact car. I would like to know the exact options that are on that specific car. Show me any options and accessories the dealer has added. Show me how the price breaks down, including any dealer prep fees and add-ons. (I will note that used car dealers tend to do a marginally better job with this on their websites.)
I understand the dealer wants to turn a car shopper into a car buyer. They trust that the most effective way to do this is to get the customer into the showroom, then on a test drive with a skilled salesperson asking pre-closing questions to deepen commitment. I don't really fault them for this, but I would like a little less flash and a little more helpful content on their websites.
Online contact with a dealer is hit or miss and also has been disappointing. Usually an email request for info is met with an automated, scripted response. Some dealers I have contacted recently have done better. But the last few days have been typical. I sent emails to five dealers asking if they had a particular 2007 model in stock. I was pretty detailed as to colors and options desired and what alternatives we would consider. So far four have responded. Three were automated "Thanks for contacting us, we're great, we'll be in touch shortly" types, and one immediately wanted to know when it would be convenient for me to come in for a test drive, please call to set up an appointment (that one is four hours away from me). None answered the simple "Do you have one like this in stock" question. Like I said, some fare better here. One recently sent info on models they had in stock that were at least similar to what I asked about and included detailed pricing all the way to an OTD price. Unfortunately nothing they had was close enough to what we were looking for. My email chat with the real person was very pleasant though.
Oh well, I have ranted enough. The search continues.
It sounds like you don't know which vehicle you want yet. That's part of the problem. Once you know the specific vehicle, then you can start getting things done a lot quicker and more efficiently.
Why don't you call up the dealerships and talk to a salesman? (After you've picked the vehicle you want.)
I KNOW you'll find this to be a much quicker/easier thing than just e-mailing. Dealers are used to e-mail leads having only about a 6% closing ratio. Yup, that means that 6 out of 100 leads will turn into deals. No wonder they don't care too much. Now we could get into a chicken and egg discussion, but that's the way it is.
Call up and I think you'll find some salesman to be a bit more helpful.
One of the reasons that you wanted to e-mail may be because your time is important and you don't want a bunch of phone calls. Make this apparent to the salesman and let him know when you're looking to purchase.
Good luck out there!
I doubt that you will find a dealer website that will give you all the info you want.
Not because the dealer doesn't want to give it to you, but because it is virtually impossbile to do so.
Most dealers inventories fluctuate too much for the on-line inventory to be accurate.
most dealers have a 3rd party that is repsonsible for website maintenance, and they simply can't keep up w/ inventory changes.
We struggle with our site to keep the inventory striaght.
Sometimes the maintenance co makes egregious errors on pricing or content on our cars.
Next, no one can take the time to take pictures of the entire inventory. It is time consuming and chances are, the car would be sold before the picture would make the website. Not to mention the bandwidth issues.
The only time a dealer will usually photo their cars is if the car is a used car.
The best thing to do is to contact the Internet Dept directly and go from there.
Sounds like you have done that already.
Now, I don't want to tell you how to buy a car,but to look for an 07 whatever at this time of year,and to be specific about color and content probably isn't going to work for you. What you are dealing with at this point is leftovers.
Dealers want to move what they have.
Depending on what you want, you may have to move to an 08, or even order the car if the color or equipment is unusual for your market.
Good Luck!
What... you sell 25-50 vehicles a day, you get 25-50 in. Shouldn't be difficult at all to keep track of inventory. We're talking about large $20k automobiles, not pints of ice cream sold on the 4th of July. When I worked at a grocery store, during college, took me about an hour to inventory 800 items. Cut and Paste, bing bang boom you're done. Seems like more of a sales gimmick to me. "ya we got the Bratmobile XRL... come on in", knowing full well it's been 2 months since the inventory was updated.
Thing is the email I sent 2 days ago asked a question similar to "Do you have a 2007 Zingo MX with 2.7 V6, Ultra package, NAV, and upgraded sound system in White Lightening Pearlcoat in stock? If not, I'm willing to consider one in any other color." A simple question I thought. The only response that I think came from a real person was "When would be a good time to come in for a test drive?"
Some questions that come to mind for me.
Why should I expect a more forthcoming and relevant response if I call instead of email?
Just out of curiosity, what would you guess the typical closing ratio is for all customers who contact a dealer whether by phone, email, or in person? Certainly I would expect in person to be the highest, but how much higher is it?
The photos might be a little more difficult to keep up with for a busy dealer. Stocks would work, but just wish they were more complete as well, not just the top trim and expensive options. I know, I know... Even on this it could be pretty automated.
My guess is that most dealerships just don't have many personnel that are interested in doing it. Frankly, website maintenance is mundane, boring tedium at its finest. Closing ratio appears low for internet leads, so there doesn't seem to be much incentive. So, get a site set up properly and train an administrative person to maintain it. Set up right and this person really shouldn't have to do much. Provide timely, accurate, and complete info on that site and I would bet that closing ratio just might go up a little.
Yes, I know that looking for anything '07 now is an iffy proposition. Ran into a particular model that one local dealer had plenty. Decided to check others in the area just to see if anyone might have a color I liked a little more.
I think I touched on that in my other response. The closing percentage on e-mail is very low. Phone calls, however, are one of the best lead sources. I love phone calls. They are better than walk-ins.
Anyone remember the Joe Verde stats? Something like 78% of people who call on the phone are buyers.
At any rate, the first order of business is to find which car you want. Everything else should fall into place after that.
-moo
It is possible the other two are on their way. Some dealers have told me that the manufacturer will update based on what they have shipped. Of course, it is also possible that the other two were sold...certainly that is the case for any 2007 models.
There are obviously some skilled web designers that have put together the sites, at least technically. Seems the thinking is let's make these things into online commercials to generate leads. I would think the quality of the lead would go up if a little more attention was given to the information on the site rather than the show.