Internet vs. Traditional Car Buying

jeffyscott

On the other hand, if I was the dealer, I wouldn't hold the car in the hope that someone might show up.

Yes, anytime I've sold a used car maybe 1 of 5 or 1 of 10 people who say they are coming to see the car actually show up. However, the dealership should not have made any promises about "being first in line".

lrguy44

That is exactly why we take non-refundable deposits

jipster

they were just doing as they were told.

I beleive it.

You should have gone in and firmly spoken to the evil puppetmaster... the salesmanager. I certainly would have wanted more than $40 for compensation. I think $200 would have been more appropriate. Otherwise, I'd be taking the matter to Judge Judy.

mazda6iguy

You should have caught the Auto Show while it was in Dallas last month. You could have seen them all under one roof.

You can't drive them all under one roof!

Some manufacturers (GM comes to mind) have test drive events around the country. They had one here in NE ohio last year where they set up a road course and let you test drive different GM cars.

mazda6iguy

Internet sales of "Fleet" managers you request are just salespeople plain and simple so no specail deals or pricing there

I disagree. I went to the fleet manager of a Ford dealer once and got a great deal. I didn't have to spend hours negotiating with a greenpea. (It also helped that this fleet manager used to work for my Dad).

mazda6iguy

4 Hours in a dealership? Ive never spent that much time in a dealership I can see an hour or hour and a half to go over paperwork but thats it. you may as well pack your lunch or dinner and bring it to the dealership with you

I will never forget when my Mom and Dad went into a dealership (I was 10 at the time), and they spent over three hours from walking in the door to finally leaving the dealership (with no deal made) dealing on a new 72 Buick Estate Wagon. My Dad was a grinder back then... I remember the sales manager yelling at my dad to wrap up the negotiations, as it was an hour past closing and they could not agree to the numbers. He ended up going to another dealer in town and buying from them. That time it only took an hour and everything was done. I liked that car, it had a big 455 V8 engine and I drove it to school every now and then.

longhornsfan

Has anyone tried the car services that let you buy straight from auction? It seems like a good idea, but I haven't read anyone actually doing it. Here are a few I found:

http://www.evenlevel.com

http://www.motobidia.com

http://www.autoauctionexpress.com

Thanks for the help!

Kirstie_H

IMO, it seems like a quite bad idea.

Notice that none of those sites list their fees, or even hint at them? The first one does on one of the site's pages, way down at the bottom in little print. Of course it doesn't say what the fees are - they just say what they cover.

longhornsfan

Oh, all you have to do is click on the link that says, "Explain The price" or something like that and it breaks out the car price. The fee is $999 across the board, from what I could tell - on Evenlevel.

Motobidia just takes their fee out of whatever you bid. So I guess if you bid $60k for a car, and the auction ends at $55k, they take the $5k.

Autoauctionexpress seems to only be for souterhn california.

Kirstie_H

My personal opinion only - I would not pay ~1K to a service to buy a car I couldn't drive first. Add that to the auction price, and you could probably negotiate a reasonably close deal on most models yourself.

This coming from a person who's willing to buy just about anything over the internet - major purchases like a car, no thanks.

longhornsfan

Hey Kristie,

Thanks for the replies! I've bought cars from eBay motors, so I'm comfortable with not doing a test drive. I was comparing their prices to ebay motors, and evenlevel looks cheaper, on average.

Guess Ill just have to take the plunge and let you know how it goes!

lrguy44

Only a house is a bigger dollar ticket than a vehicle. I also can't imagine buying it sight unseen. By the way, our prices are the same internet or walk-in. We consider an internet price to be an advertised price just like a print ad. I think legally we are correct in that philosophy.

longhornsfan

Kristie,

I didn't quite get that part about the price, what did you mean by that?

I heard that 70% of ebay motor's sales are out-of-state, so Im guessing pretty much sight unseen.

Thanks!

Kirstie_H

OK, for example, I just did a search for 2006 Toyota Corolla on evenlevel.com. They have one with 30K miles listed for $13,500, which includes the service fee but not the transportation. The current owner is listed as Hertz. The cheapest '06 Hyundai Sonata they list is $11,799. The

I did an Autotrader & craigslist search for the same vehicle, and came up with loads of Corollas, all with fewer miles, and many at the same price or $500 more. The cheapest '06 Sonata, with more options & fewer miles, was $11,999. And, none of them were ex-rental cars.

I just really don't see the huge bargains on these sites.

longhornsfan

I realized that I actually misattributed a post that someone else wrote as one that you wrote, which is why I was confused about the internet pricing versus lot pricing, but it all makes sense now.

I just did an Autotrader search and I think you're right, not all prices are cheaper. But, I looked on Autotrader for an '07 4Runner (i was thinking about buying a 4Runner), and the average was 33k. I found an '07 4Runner on evenlevel for $24,999.

I'm not too worried about shipping because I know how to get it pretty cheap. There is a site out there that has transport companies bid against each other, they are feedback rated, as well.

Thanks!

Anyway, thanks for the help!

nmax

The funny thing about making a big purchase online, as in the case of a car, is that sometimes the benefits outweigh the risks so much that even people who are extremely cautious jump headlong. I know I've done it. Up till four years ago I didn't dare spend $20 online not to get tricked or end up with something that only looks good on a picture. That was until I bought my Nissan Maxima SE '02 on eBay - sight unseen! I had researched that model for months, test-driven one at a local dealer (who told me that I couldn't afford one and suggested a Sentra :mad: ), I had followed the classifieds, bargained as much as I could and found that nobody would sell me one in a reasonably good shape for less than $22k at the time. Then I found it on eBay for about $15k and the choice became a no-brainer! With a price difference like that I figured I could easily re-sell it if I didn't like it. I probably snickered at the idea of trading it in at that local dealership that didn’t want to sell me one before, and still getting more than what I put in. So I quickly dispatched a local mechanic to check it out (I think that service costed me around $40) and after I got his fax that the car was as advertised, and had ordered a Carfax report I hit the "buy it now" button and arranged payment and delivery. I still drive this car and I don't have any regrets about my purchase. And yes, I'm still nervous when buying a $10 USB flash drive online (with $20 s&h?!) and I try to find out as much about the seller as possible before sending my money into the unknown, but just the fact that I can't see and touch the item I'm buying is not a decisive factor.

When it comes to cars, I think it makes more economic sense to buy a more expensive car online than one that costs, say, $10k or less. There is a lot more "wiggle room" in the margins of a $50k car so dealers with lower holding costs - such as the carless type of this discussion - can offer those for a lot less than traditional dealers. Saving $500 on a Corolla online may not be enough to make you buy it sight-unseen, but $7k on a Maxima (in my case) or even more on a high-end S-Class Benz may make it quite convincing. Of course, the price has to be within believable range or else I might consider it a scam.

I'm also wary of unprofessional-looking sites that look like they've been put together in a haste to make a quick buck and run. Autoauctionexpress.com looks sad, though the service sounds credible. Do they say why they wouldn't deal with customers outside CA?! They must have "enough" business locally and offline to care. Evenlevel.com was suspiciously down when I visited, so I can't comment other than it can't be good for business. Motobidia.com was zippy and looks like a lot of thought has been put in creating it. They don't cover as wide a range of cars and seem to be betting on the auction fever for hot-ticket cars to make better margins (as kirstie_h observed). A couple of BMW listings that I saw were started around the Nada trade-in benchmark posted there - even if that figure is an arbitrary average, it's still way better than retail to make it attractive. I wouldn't buy a $44k X5 for $39k online just because of the savings, but then again, I'm not interested in a car that expensive. I'd be curious to see if people with that kind of money care about the savings or would they rather pay a little extra at their friendly local dealer and not worry about the risks?

user777

wow, i won't buy a car if i can't drive it, brand-spanking new or used. period.

even if you are a really good mechanic or in the biz of shopping used vehicles, i think you can get burned.

and i doubt all carfax reports are gonna keep you out of danger w.r.t. purchasing a vehicle involved in an accident.

longhornsfan

Nmax,

I think you're right about the savings, I tend to view a car as a way to get from point A to point B, and if I can get a good deal without a lot of hassle, I'll take it.

I looked at motobidia, and granted I'm not in the market for a higher end car, but I couldn't see the car condition. I know there has to be more wrong than a scratch somewhere, I'd like to know what I'm getting before I buy it.

lrguy44

I agree that you might get a deal on a used private party car sight unseen (buyer beware), but on a car from a dealer you can get the same deal by walking in the door. Private party sales have an upside (price) and a downside (no warranty other than remaining factory and no certification). Personally, I would never buy a car that I had never seen or driven. At least you did do diligence in having the mechanic check it out. Glad you dodged a bullet.

gasman1

I have a friend that buys muscle cars for resale. He averages one a quarter and pockets from $5K to $10 on each one. However, he just got burned on an ebay car (early 70's Chevelle SS). He was really upset about the paint and how it wasn't properly represented by the seller. He gave up a sweet GTO convertable as part of the deal. Within a week of having the Chevelle, the tranny goes out! Now he was really ticked! He got the tranny fixed and yeserday I noticed the Cheville being loaded on a transport. I assume that it's on the way to it's new owner. I'll have to get with him to find out how much he lost. He thought it would be at least $2K.

I also assume that a lot of these internet cars have problems and some could be flood cars. There's no way that I could EVER buy a car from the internet UNLESS it's straight from the factory or a new car listed by the manufacturer/dealer site. IMHO, those that go the ebay route may see the big pay off, but it's not worth the risk to me.

longhornsfan

People can get burned buying a used car anytime, regardless of its through the internet. AS for the flood cars, I always get a vehicle history report. Frankly, I bet 90% of buyers at retail lot don't know everything about their car, either.

irismg

What an extremely useful and detailed post! Thank you! It certainly gives me a new perspective on the ebay sales. eBay is obviously profitable or else they wouldn't continue to do the car auctions, or the real estate auctions, for that matter. One has to go into it with intelligence, like any large purchase. I'm not sure if I'll ever go this route, but at least thanks to you I have more information about the process.

And it must be said, if in my opinion dealerships and car salesmen didn't make the process so god-awful, people wouldn't even be considering these alternative routes like Carmax and eBay in the first place. Negotiating for HOURS?! This is a CAR, not a cantaloupe at a farmer's market in Abu Dhabi! Makes my stomach turn to even think of buying another car. I think a buyer's agent, like they have for real estate, is a another good idea. Then you could buy by proxy.

lrguy44

Don't judge all dealerships and sales people by your past experience. Particularly in high end, the professionalism can actually make it an informative and enjoyable process. Don't forget, brokers also make a profit.

irismg

Well, since I buy decidedly "low-end", after five cars past experience is all I've got and will ever have!

irismg

I've heard of MassBuyPower - I wish we had that here. Another very useful and informative post. $200 over invoice is doable!

british_rover

That is a post from five years ago. I have no idea if the information in it is still accurate.

oldfarmer50

"... People can get burned buying a used car anytime..."

True. But if you buy in person you always know where to go to complain.

"...I always get a vehicle history report..."

I bought my late father's car from my mother 4 years after he died. A year later I was looking at another used car and paid $20 to Carfax to get unlimited reports for 30 days. I ran the car I was thinking of buying and then, ran my father's car (which I had owned for a year) through Carfax just to see what came up.

Not only did Carfax still have my dead father listed as the owner but they missed the accident he had had with it in 1998 which caused $8000 in damage. Don't put too much faith in vehicle history reports.

joel0622

Carfax sucks. There has been more then one occasion where we have got a clean Carfax and had an accident or odometer discrepancy show up when we try to put it into certification.

IMHO Carfax is not worth the paper it is printed on. I attribute it to the fact that its name is so similar to Carmax.

geffen

This week i've noticed some dealerships are offering special internet pricing, would this be the same as no haggle pricing? whats really the difference? I know some Saturn dealerships have no haggle pricing.

madmanmoo

It IS guaranteed though, right? So that should be worth something.

-MOo

joel0622

This is true, I guess the guarantee is worth the price of admission, and it is better then what we used to have which was nothing other then the previous owner saying the car had never been wrecked and they have no idea why the vin sticker is missing from the door jam and why the underside of the drivers door is green and the the rest of the car is red.

lrguy44

To us, the internet price is the same as an advertised price, which is also in the paper, on TV, and hanging from the window of the car. Usually, it is the bottom price.

user777

possibly at your store? my experience over the years has been, you generally CAN'T buy the vehicle at the advertised price in the paper.

lrguy44

Legally, an advertised price must be a car that the dealer owns, has a stock number printed with the ad, and is available when the ad is placed. It may be sold after and gone when you get there.

tbaxxon

I placed no less then four requests for Internet quotes. because I do not like the whole grind. I had gone to look at cars when the dealership was closed. Found one. Drove back the two days later to test drive. The sales guy said he did not have the car I saw a couple days earlier (and was still on the lot in plain view). I told him he did indeed have one and it was 25 yards away, He then said Oh yeah we got a "shipment this morning" .......I thanked him for his time and left, deciding to use the Internet for quotes. I get a call from every single dealer.I let the machine pick it up. "They are having issues with their internet, please call them back at such and such a number". If I wanted to deal with salespeople I would not ask for Email quotes!!!!!

Now I have to grind with an Internet salesperson. Im probably going to buy a two year old car from a private seller and be done with it. They will be happy to get more then the dealer will offer and I will get a warrantied car.

user777

that happens all the time, but no, that isn't what i mean. i mean they post a model number... "x at this price". no, can't be done.

greanpea68

I have 300 - 400 cars on the lot at any given time. You would be able to tell if the car just came off the truck if the wrapping paper was still on. But it sounds like if he just broomed you off by saying it wasn't available. If you asked him if the add car was still available and he said no that was sold. Then their could be many reasons why he did that. Mainly no body wants to sell a add car. But if you asked about a specific vehicle then he might of recognised and maybe someone had a deposit on it and he just considered it sold.

Bottom line he should have checked! :sick:

madmanmoo

You know, a little patience never hurt anybody either. Everyone has bad days. You can choose to spend your time doing whatever you want, but give some folks the benefit of the doubt. I think we've all made mistakes before.

Pick a car out, work up the price and see if you can come to a reasonable negotiation. Don't make it any harder than it needs to be.

_moo v. 2.1

jeffyscott

I did not get the advertised car, which I did not want, but I did get the same discount applied to exactly I wanted. All done by email, never met the salesman I bought from until I went to get the car.

This was at a slow time, end of January. I wonder if buying then, rather then now when everyone expects the deals, maybe actually increased my odds of getting a good deal...maybe they wanted to sell a few cars and there were not too many choices of who to sell to???

tbaxxon

Nah this sales guy had no clue. I cannot spend thousands at a place where I don't trust the sales guy or he lies out right to cover his lack of product knowledge. There were no less then 5 cars out of the 30 or so in the front that were what I asked for.

I realize these are professional people and the turn over is weekly Thats the real issue. They'll hire anyone. Then the guy crosses out someones name on a card and writes his own there. Sorry not gonna be his education.

mako1a

Your rants are refreshing. Your frustrations sound like mine used to be. I have a 2 yr old Toyota (garaged under 16k mi) with factory warranty left. email me if interested. I have found a new buying method that all but eliminates salespeople and am anxious to try it out on a new Vette. that rag charge was hilarious, but unfortunately true. I made them give me the rag since I paid for it

madmanmoo

I still stick with my guns. A little patience never hurt anyone. If he's inexperienced, don't get angry. Everyone has to start up at some point. If he's lying to you. That's another story.

-Moo

lrguy44

Now I have to grind with an Internet salesperson

Going in with that attitude sets everything up for an unpleasant expirience.

madmanmoo

That's kind of where I'm going with this. Stupid is as stupid does. I'm not quite sure what that means, but I'm sure it applies to something.


-Moo

british_rover

Life is like a box of chocolates or something.

Who says you have to go in and grind to get a good deal? IMO that is the wrong way to do it.

Do your research figure out about what you want to pay then make a decision on what to offer based on your research. Make you offer and see what happens. If they try and bump you decide if it is a reasonable bump and if it is not walk out the door. If your price id doable they will call you are stop you from getting in the car.

If your price is not doable then they won't chase you down. As long as someone is still sitting in my office after making an offer I figure we still have somewhere to go. Either they will go up in price some or maybe I need to throw in some freebies or sell the value of the services we offer better.

blufz1

Good info,but When in doubt grind it out!

geffen

Freebies? I got a hat once, maybe i could try for a pen set or a sweatshirt or one of the model race cars in the display case :shades:

lrguy44

Grind with attitude and it is Goodbye Charlie" Next please

tbaxxon

I still stick with my guns. A little patience never hurt anyone. If he's inexperienced, don't get angry. Everyone has to start up at some point. If he's lying to you. That's another story.

He did lie! He had no clue I shopped the lot while they were closed. You want ME to spend thousands of dollars on a product and educate the new employee for free?

Really nice people cannot sell cars, Period. The business is not set up that way. They are picking your pockets in every department and every office.
>>>

Going in with that attitude sets everything up for an unpleasant experience.

If we don't go in defensive we will soon get there anyway......We are automatically at odds. You NEED to make a sale. I do not need to buy a car. You NEED to make as much as you can whatever it takes. I need to conserve cash and make sure I am not confused.....

Those in car sales personal value system are skewed toward the material and ostentatious. Thats seems to be all they care about. I am not about that. I saved my money so I could retire at 50 completely out of debt. Instead of putting $15,000 down on a BMW I paid cash for 2 year old cars or trucks and saved what would have been the payments. I never bought Extended Warranties on anything. I wear a Timex when I could easily afford a $6000+ watch.I paid off my first house when I was 35 instead of buying trinkets and fancy stuff. I can now afford all that "stuff" and don't want most of it. No one to impress. I still refuse to be someone's sucker though. Especially someone who has no clue and training to sell me a $20,000 ANYTHING!!!!

Then all the sites say get a quote by internet. Email quotes LOVE IT!!! Except they want to call. So the lady calls and gives me MSRP and says I may be able to save " a couple hundred" Are you serious. I told her I was expecting an Email quote not a call. She says her internet was "down" ...Ahh RIGHT...

tidester

I told her I was expecting an Email quote not a call.

Why on Earth would you invite them to call by providing them with your phone number in the first place?

tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper