Basically, like I said above, I really don't think they will make alot of changes. I bet it will be very evolutionary, like the differences between a '00 Civic and a '01 Civic. They aren't under any pressure to re-invent the wheel here. The car is consistently a best seller. They really don't "need" to bring out an enthusiast version of the car with a 6-speed manual, stiffer suspension, etc... Although, that said, I think the new 2-door will be more sporty to fill the void from the Prelude being dropped. But, I don't expect a "Type-R" version of the 4-door sedan.
Also, if I were a betting man, I'd say kiss the double wishbones goodbye. I know enthusiasts will scream, but I think the average person doesn't know the difference anyway. The average consumer would rather have the roomier interior and the lower cost (reflected in the sticker not going up much from '02 to '03).
Put it this way - have Civic sales drastically dropped since they dropped the wishbones?
Every Honda/Acura will have a brand new engine design. The company was planning to phase out its current design (SOHC/DOHC with or without VTEC) will be replaced by DOHC iVTEC in all models by 2004-2005. This started with RSX (2.0 liter) and CRV (2.4 litter) here in NA. All future designs will be similar in concept, smaller, lighter chain driven engines (compared to similar displacement Honda engines) that turn in the same direction as the rest of the world (F20C in S2000 was the first engine to break Honda's rule but it still uses the old VTEC, followed by RSX and CRV engines).
Accord will get a brand new 3.0 liter V6 DOHC iVTEC (let me guess the output, 220 HP @ 6000 rpm, 210 lb.-ft @ 4000 rpm). May be it will be a 3.2 liter V6. And about six months later, Honda will launch a Sport trim (finally in NA!) with the same engine pumped up to produce 240-260 HP.
I doubt Honda will move the displacement up in Accord. There is a limit up to which one can appreciate and use additional torque from the engine in a FWD car the rest is only for bragging rights. If you have got the power, the car can be geared up to produce more torque if required.
I will be surprised if Honda didn't put five speed automatic in Accord. It does not matter Camry, Altima, Maxima etc. not offering it. They started with TL, CL, MDX, and followed up with Odyssey and RSX (base). Pilot will have 5-speed auto too. The downside of the 5-speed auto is that it seems to add about 20 lb. more than conventional 4-speed automatic. BTW, Honda has been selling American Accord's current engine (3.0 liter V6 SOHC VTEC, 215 HP) in Avancier for couple of years with 5-speed Sport Shift automatic in Japan and it is dash mounted. BTW, the dash picture is that of Avancier equipped with 2.3 liter engine which was offered with 4-speed auto only.
As for styling, I have always noticed that Honda look better as you get closer. This version will be no different. I hope it doesn't look bulkier than it really is (as is the case with many cars), one of the reasons I like Passat's styling. It is a reasonably large car on the inside with deceiving exterior dimensions, which IMO is a good example of intelligent engineering.
The current U.S. Accord V6 has 200 hp. Do you mean they are selling a "version" of the American V6 in the Avancier, since that one has 215 hp? That could probably be said for every engine Honda makes. There usually is a different version somewhere.
Perhaps I am mistaken but didn't the extra room in the Civic come from the flat floor in the rear seating area? If this is the extra room Honda hopes to add to the Accord by going with a strut front suspension, I think they are making a mistake. The flat floor does absolutely nothing for me as the driver or my front seat passenger. The rear seat middle passenger can rest their feet on the floor, big whoop.
I'm sure I read that all of the extra room in the Civic came from the flat rear floor. Perhaps a little came from some stretching in the front.
You're right about the engine compartment though, my CR-V reminds me of a full size van or whatever those vehicles were with the small engine compartments.
Well, we'll all find out for sure in a few months, but I wouldn't be shocked to see the same strut suspension as the Civic, RSX, and new CR-V in the 2003 Accord. It hasn't seemed to hurt the sales of those cars. Purists don't like it, but I don't think the general car-buying public even notices.
When I bought my '89 Accord I remember thinking "what the heck is a double wishbone?". All I cared about was that it wasn't a Chevrolet. Over the years I've learned a little about it, but nowhere near what most people here know. And I bought an '02 CR-V so obviously I've accepted the change.
Yes. Honda sells two 'other' versions of the 3.0 liter V6. One of them is in Avancier (215 HP) and the other is in Odyssey(210 HP). We got only 200 HP.
The 2.3 liter I-4 is sold as is (150 HP) in Avancier, Accord Wagon and JDM Odyssey. However, Honda also makes a DOHC version of the 2.3 liter I-4 that delivers 200 HP (I believe 190 HP with auto). It is used in Accord Wagon SiR (FWD & AWD models).
The 3.5 liter V6 (240 HP) from American Odyssey is sold as is in Japan (they call it La Great). The 3.2 liter V6 (TL) is sold with the same output (225 and 260 HP) in Inspire/Saber (notice CA plates). However, there is another variation of the Accord V6, displacing 2.5 liters. It is tuned to produce 200 HP and is available as base engine in Inspire/Saber (what would had been 2.5TL in USA).
Would they still be able to have a flat rear floor (like in the Civic) with a double wishbone suspension? If the answer is yes, I say go for it. That is the only dimensional change that I want to see. IMO, the current Accord has sufficient interior space for its size (sit in a Mitsubishi Galant and you'll feel the difference right away).
Definitely going to purchase a new car later in the year. My choice now would be between the new Altima and an Accord. However, I'm going to wait for the new redesigned Accord before making a final decision. Here's what I'd like to see in the new Accord: (1) four-wheel disc brakes; (2)16-inch wheels standard; (3) 5-speed auto; (4) beefier engines - 160-170HP in the I4; 215-220HP in the V6; (5) slightly larger interior and a trunk in the 16 cubic foot range. I'm pushing 60 and have only purchased two new cars in my entire life - a '71 VW Squareback ($2750) and an '80 Accord ($5725). Needless to say, my purchasing a new '03 will be a huge event!
Honda seems to be designating Acura as the performance division. They will probably eventually expand the Type S variant to most of their offerings. Honda seems to be the family division. First they made the Civic less sporty, did away with the Si-R coupe, then canned the Prelude. The lone exception is the S2000, but I think that was just as a showcase of their technical know-how.
Yes, I agree with canadiancl above. I think anyone expecting a really sporty Accord or a "Type R" version will be disappointed. Maybe for the 2 door coupe since they dropped the Prelude, but I think they'll stay conservative with the Accord. Don't mess with success. Also, they don't want to crowd into Acura TL territory either
Here's what the editors at Consumer Guide are saying:
"Details remain sketchy, but spies say Honda should find a little more interior room without increasing exterior size. V6 models exchange a 3.0-liter engine for a 3.2-liter, as used in the Acura CL coupe and TL sedan at Honda's luxury division. Horsepower is unknown, but should be at or a bit below the Acuras' 225. Accord's 4-cyl remains at 2.4 liters, but adoption of Honda's new "iVTEC" valve-control system should provide 160 hp, up 10"
I guess they don't know that the current accord has only a 2.3l 4-cyl engine. lets don't forget that some upcoming saturn model will be furnished with honda's 3.0l v6. it would be a nice marketing ploy for honda to have the new accord with the 3.2l v6 while its competition has the "old" accord v6.
Type-R, no chance. Sport Package, good chance. Another sketch (from a German magazine) of '03 Accord that floated around over a month ago is back at www.vtec.net. This could be the next Euro Accord.
side curtain air bags and side air bags standard on all models; ABS not linked to a hole in the roof; traction control available with the 4 cylinder, and dual power seats in the EX-L regardless of engine size?
I would put my money on the airbags as mpgman suggests. The V6 would likely be at 220hp, because that would give the TL/CL a 5hp marketing advantage, and because Honda typically increase power by about 10% with each model changeover.
mpgman: abs is available in lx 4dr sedans and is standard in lx v6 sedans and coupes. you're right, abs should be more available but these models do not come with a sun roof.
I have a feeling that side curtain airbags will be available. Honda may add EBD as a standard feature on EX trim. Canandian Accord gets heated seats with leather (I believe outside mirrors are heated too), and that may be another feature added to Accord in USA this time around. I was at Dallas Auto Show yesterday, and noticed that Odyssey w/leather has it.
Maybe someone can show me why we need to care so much about double wishbone suspension. I know some people would claim it provides sporty ride and handling. But I am sorry I have to disagree.
I am driving a 2001 Civic LX. I bad a 96 Accord LX before. Both have I4 engines. Accord has 15" wheel and double wishbone front and rear. Civic has 14" wheel and it has double wishbone only at the back. I frequently make sharp turns and I know Civic beats my Accord by a fairly large margin in this department. Usually, if I can make x mph at a turn with my Civic, I can only make x-5 mph with my Accord. Accord also has a very heavy understeer.
I also drove my uncle's 2000 Lexus LS which has double wishbone at both ends. There's no sporty feel about it whatsoever. The ride is comfortable but I felt I was driving a boat.
On the other end, I also drove my sister's 2001 Boxster S featuring McPherson strut suspension front and rear. I don't think there is anyone who would say Accord has a better handling than Porsche.
So I don't think double wishbone itself determines a car's handling capability or its sportiness. But maybe I miss some important points.
IMHO, the 2 weakest points for Honda cars are weak brake and excess road noise. I have read many comparison tests and Honda cars quite often have one of the worst 70mph-0 or 60mph-0 readings.
They used to have jerky automatic transmission and weak AC. But with my current Civic, I would say Honda has mainly solved these 2 problems.
I want the Civic's flat floor, the Camry's hidden gooseneck hinge trunk, and power that's near that of the Altima's. Other than that, the car can remain the same.
Don't look for any dramatic changes to the overall appearance. I've talked with several reps from Honda, and they all say it will still look like an Accord. Yes they may increase to 225hp by going to a 3.2L V-6. I hope they improve the interior noise at highway speeds.
Honda need not make too much of the redesigned Altima from a competition stand point IMO. Outside the Altima has a more striking look. But inside, it still looks like your typical rental car. The Accord beats it easily. No contest!! Plus the Honda reputation for reliability and durability. It's an easy choice, Honda all the way!
i agree that road noise is definitely a problem in most hondas. its like they forgot to add insulation. but i have to say the 2nd weakest point is the sheet metal. hondas have the weakest sheet metal ive ever seen. i can blow on it and it will dent. even on Acura's the sheet metal is thin/weak.
1. Make it the first Honda without noticeable road noise. 2. Keep the dash as low or lower than the current Accord(to give the car a more airy feel) 3. Don't increase the length or width. Smaller European and Japanese vehicles feel roomier, example: Passat. 4. Offer more colors in addition to the Honda Boring Collection. 5. Retain foldaway mirrors.
I'm assuming that it's going to look like the MagX pictures, and will come with the expected refinements in crash protection and emissions.
Is definitely the European model. No way will they bring something that good-looking here to upstage Acura TL (unless they make the TL even better looking!).
I believe that Honda is moving to just one Accord model worldwide (like the Camry), since the primary Accord market is in the US. The Japanese and European Accord versions don't sell in high enough volume, that's why it no longer makes sense to invest in different body styles. Engines will be different in those markets, of course.
"No way will they bring something that good-looking here to upstage Acura TL"
sure they will. remember the cl that's was out when the 98 accord coupe debut. talk about getting upstaged. the tl is going to take a hit when the new accord debuts. a lot of people are going to pleasantly surprised when the 03 accord debuts.
...and the CL sales are suffering too. Sales are down since last year and American Honda is debating if they'll pull the plug on the CL in favor of the upcoming X Suv.....
Have any of the accord owners experience a vibration when breaking at high speed I am talking about doing 100mph and breaking not hard but steady it feel like it is coming from the front tires. it only happens at high speed. well I do not have the car any more I did trade the car in for a 2002 crv for my wife She do not really care for too many thing so when we went to the Miami auto show and she liked the car I knew that was her next car. we both love the crv I a thinking may be about getting one for myself.
TL is due for its redesign next year. IMO, it will be launched next Spring as a 2004 model, so it will be about six months when new Accord and old TL battle it out. If TL redesign does stretch out to Fall 2003, my guess is that even the base TL would get the 260 HP engine from Type-S instead of the 225 HP base engine that it does (similar to Saber/Inspire in Japan, they do not get 225 HP engine any more).
IMO, Accord will likely retain two (Japanese-European and American) sizes and styling instead of three (Japanese, American and European). The American Accord will be larger as it is now, and Japanese/European will be the smaller version to use smaller engines. Styling may or may not be same for the two trims. Even if they are different, there may be a few similarities between the two styles.
yes there will be different versions because japanese roads cannot handle the bigger american accord. if u ever been there u know what i mean. this is why almost all the cars there got folding mirrors cuz they have to use it most of the time.
yes, in my civic too. that's why i don't drive 100 mph in my car. those cars just don't handle those speeds very well. the Audi A4 does a wonderful job at 100, but it has high-performance brakes, sport suspension, and Z-rated sport tires. kids, don't try this at home.
i was racing an accord v6 at 100 mph too, and he backed out at 100 since I'm sure he felt his brakes vibrating. was that you ???
I'm enjoying the various ideas posted. I'm in the camp that says the '03 model will keep double wishbone which it has had since 1986. Regardless of what anyone says here, Honda froze its basic redesign many months ago. So we're just betting on an already done deal. (I feel from reading a few of the posts that perhaps someone here has inside information but just can't openly come out with it.) Given that the Accord and Acura TL share - and will continue to share - the same basic platform, it just seems logical that the double wishbone will continue. It is part of what makes a Honda special in our eyes - even if Porsche doesn't use it. The fact that the upper level Lexus uses it, is testamony to its better/more expensive design. I think most all of us here are Honda fans. We are the purists who worry about the Accord sliding down to the wholly functional but no fun Camry like the new Civic seems to have slid. If Honda gives away the sportiness in their design, it will become just another car company rather than first on my list of cars to consider. It would likely still be reliable and have good mpg, but that's not enough. I would like to add one item to Strager's wish list - a thick steering wheel.
I would really like to know how this car performs without double wishbones upfront, or atleast how it compares in handling to this car. Anybody keeping up with Japanese reviews/comparisons? The new Civic Si has thick and small steering wheels that feels good. I doubt however that regular versions of Accord would use anything similar, may be if we get a sport variant this time around.
It is obvious that 2002 Design(with Struts) is going to outhandle the Double Wishbones of previous Integra(94 Design ?) The proper comparision would be 2002 platform with bones & check which handles better: Obviously the bones are going to deliver better handling *IF* tuned similar & applied to the same platform.
Having said that, the new Civic's problem is the REAR suspension which doesn't have two arms for increased trunk & gas tank! The front suspension on Civic is just fabuous (NOW do not raise eyebrows drive the civic to check yourself) Civic front suspension handles REAL well. The only problem is with the rear which bounces on the slightest undulation on the road surface. (2002 modifications improved & 50% of the testcase would be passed now but still it does bouce)
Would the 2003 Accord with struts handle better than 2002 ? MAYBE & prob'ly WILL but would 2003 Accord handle better with struts or bones ?? The answer is quite obvious! Struts how much you may want to glorify would not result in the geometry AS good as the Bones. Thats just the TRUTH!!
In short what I want to say is that if Honda does something like Civic for front suspension I would buy the Accord in a heartbit BUT NOT with the screw-up rear suspension. Honda misjudged when they thought of completely flat-floor. How many times a 2 door civic (or even 4 doors is going to have 3 passengers in the back???
Flat rear floor on 2 door civic is sort of a Oxymoron!! I hope we agree on that !!
I agree that Honda should retain Accord's unique 5-link rear suspension. Civic had been using 3-link rear suspension with the previous generation, and so it does even now, but it is probably spring rate that creates the bounce.
As for struts versus bones, given a choice, I would prefer bones, like it is in both of my cars. But if the next Accord handles just as well or better than the current Accord, I wouldn't have problem with the change.
how can you possibly know why that accord v6 backed off at 100 mph? an accord with the brakes working normally will not exhibit any vibrations at those speeds.
though I fear this may be reserved for Europe/Japan only? So, I guess I'll hold out all hope for the sporty coupe variant. I am looking to sell my '97 Prelude type SH,(...moment of silence of the passing of a great coupe please) but looking at the market right now just leaves me depressed, I see nothing this side of 30G that really inspires me. I briefly considered the RSX-s, ultimately determined that was a lateral move at best, with many tradeoffs, and I still can't get over thinking- shortened Alero with scallop head/tail lights.
I have also heard similar complaints which some of you have mentioned about the Civic's rear suspension being said about the RSX's- being somewhat hoppy, and not feeling as stable at higher speeds, something I have never felt in the Prelude. The lude feels solid and is confidence inspiring at high speed, steering is very linear and responsive,(even at 100+MPH) and that is something that I would not want to give up.
In short, I would rather go with a larger Accord with true sport competence, more torque, 6MT(PLEASE), and double wishbone naturally. Don't let me down Honda, I'm on the verge of despair!
Yeah, the Accord is a "family" sedan, so I'm sure the majority of buyers will appreciate a flat rear floor and a roomier interior much more than they care about wishbones vs. struts.
Comments
Put it this way - have Civic sales drastically dropped since they dropped the wishbones?
Accord will get a brand new 3.0 liter V6 DOHC iVTEC (let me guess the output, 220 HP @ 6000 rpm, 210 lb.-ft @ 4000 rpm). May be it will be a 3.2 liter V6. And about six months later, Honda will launch a Sport trim (finally in NA!) with the same engine pumped up to produce 240-260 HP.
I doubt Honda will move the displacement up in Accord. There is a limit up to which one can appreciate and use additional torque from the engine in a FWD car the rest is only for bragging rights. If you have got the power, the car can be geared up to produce more torque if required.
I will be surprised if Honda didn't put five speed automatic in Accord. It does not matter Camry, Altima, Maxima etc. not offering it. They started with TL, CL, MDX, and followed up with Odyssey and RSX (base). Pilot will have 5-speed auto too. The downside of the 5-speed auto is that it seems to add about 20 lb. more than conventional 4-speed automatic. BTW, Honda has been selling American Accord's current engine (3.0 liter V6 SOHC VTEC, 215 HP) in Avancier for couple of years with 5-speed Sport Shift automatic in Japan and it is dash mounted. BTW, the dash picture is that of Avancier equipped with 2.3 liter engine which was offered with 4-speed auto only.
As for styling, I have always noticed that Honda look better as you get closer. This version will be no different. I hope it doesn't look bulkier than it really is (as is the case with many cars), one of the reasons I like Passat's styling. It is a reasonably large car on the inside with deceiving exterior dimensions, which IMO is a good example of intelligent engineering.
You're right about the engine compartment though, my CR-V reminds me of a full size van or whatever those vehicles were with the small engine compartments.
The 2.3 liter I-4 is sold as is (150 HP) in Avancier, Accord Wagon and JDM Odyssey. However, Honda also makes a DOHC version of the 2.3 liter I-4 that delivers 200 HP (I believe 190 HP with auto). It is used in Accord Wagon SiR (FWD & AWD models).
The 3.5 liter V6 (240 HP) from American Odyssey is sold as is in Japan (they call it La Great). The 3.2 liter V6 (TL) is sold with the same output (225 and 260 HP) in Inspire/Saber (notice CA plates). However, there is another variation of the Accord V6, displacing 2.5 liters. It is tuned to produce 200 HP and is available as base engine in Inspire/Saber (what would had been 2.5TL in USA).
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Sedans Message Board
"Details remain sketchy, but spies say Honda should find a little more interior room without increasing exterior size. V6 models exchange a 3.0-liter engine for a 3.2-liter, as used in the Acura CL coupe and TL sedan at Honda's luxury division. Horsepower is unknown, but should be at or a bit below the Acuras' 225. Accord's 4-cyl remains at 2.4 liters, but adoption of Honda's new "iVTEC" valve-control system should provide 160 hp, up 10"
I guess they don't know that the current accord has only a 2.3l 4-cyl engine. lets don't forget that some upcoming saturn model will be furnished with honda's 3.0l v6. it would be a nice marketing ploy for honda to have the new accord with the 3.2l v6 while its competition has the "old" accord v6.
Another sketch (from a German magazine) of '03 Accord that floated around over a month ago is back at www.vtec.net. This could be the next Euro Accord.
mpgman: abs is available in lx 4dr sedans and is standard in lx v6 sedans and coupes. you're right, abs should be more available but these models do not come with a sun roof.
Canandian Accord gets heated seats with leather (I believe outside mirrors are heated too), and that may be another feature added to Accord in USA this time around. I was at Dallas Auto Show yesterday, and noticed that Odyssey w/leather has it.
I am driving a 2001 Civic LX. I bad a 96 Accord LX before. Both have I4 engines. Accord has 15" wheel and double wishbone front and rear. Civic has 14" wheel and it has double wishbone only at the back. I frequently make sharp turns and I know Civic beats my Accord by a fairly large margin in this department. Usually, if I can make x mph at a turn with my Civic, I can only make x-5 mph with my Accord. Accord also has a very heavy understeer.
I also drove my uncle's 2000 Lexus LS which has double wishbone at both ends. There's no sporty feel about it whatsoever. The ride is comfortable but I felt I was driving a boat.
On the other end, I also drove my sister's 2001
Boxster S featuring McPherson strut suspension front and rear. I don't think there is anyone who would say Accord has a better handling than Porsche.
So I don't think double wishbone itself determines a car's handling capability or its sportiness. But maybe I miss some important points.
They used to have jerky automatic transmission and weak AC. But with my current Civic, I would say Honda has mainly solved these 2 problems.
Honda need not make too much of the redesigned Altima from a competition stand point IMO. Outside the Altima has a more striking look. But inside, it still looks like your typical rental car. The Accord beats it easily. No contest!! Plus the Honda reputation for reliability and durability. It's an easy choice, Honda all the way!
1. Make it the first Honda without noticeable road noise.
2. Keep the dash as low or lower than the current Accord(to give the car a more airy feel)
3. Don't increase the length or width. Smaller European and Japanese vehicles feel roomier, example: Passat.
4. Offer more colors in addition to the Honda Boring Collection.
5. Retain foldaway mirrors.
I'm assuming that it's going to look like the MagX pictures, and will come with the expected refinements in crash protection and emissions.
sure they will. remember the cl that's was out when the 98 accord coupe debut. talk about getting upstaged. the tl is going to take a hit when the new accord debuts. a lot of people are going to pleasantly surprised when the 03 accord debuts.
www.autoextremist.com
IMO, Accord will likely retain two (Japanese-European and American) sizes and styling instead of three (Japanese, American and European). The American Accord will be larger as it is now, and Japanese/European will be the smaller version to use smaller engines. Styling may or may not be same for the two trims. Even if they are different, there may be a few similarities between the two styles.
i was racing an accord v6 at 100 mph too, and he backed out at 100 since I'm sure he felt his brakes vibrating. was that you ???
Having said that, the new Civic's problem is the REAR suspension which doesn't have two arms for increased trunk & gas tank! The front suspension on Civic is just fabuous (NOW do not raise eyebrows drive the civic to check yourself) Civic front suspension handles REAL well. The only problem is with the rear which bounces on the slightest undulation on the road surface. (2002 modifications improved & 50% of the testcase would be passed now but still it does bouce)
Would the 2003 Accord with struts handle better than 2002 ? MAYBE & prob'ly WILL but would 2003 Accord handle better with struts or bones ?? The answer is quite obvious! Struts how much you may want to glorify would not result in the geometry AS good as the Bones. Thats just the TRUTH!!
In short what I want to say is that if Honda does something like Civic for front suspension I would buy the Accord in a heartbit BUT NOT with the screw-up rear suspension. Honda misjudged when they thought of completely flat-floor. How many times a 2 door civic (or even 4 doors is going to have 3 passengers in the back???
Flat rear floor on 2 door civic is sort of a Oxymoron!! I hope we agree on that !!
As for struts versus bones, given a choice, I would prefer bones, like it is in both of my cars. But if the next Accord handles just as well or better than the current Accord, I wouldn't have problem with the change.
though I fear this may be reserved for Europe/Japan only? So, I guess I'll hold out all hope for the sporty coupe variant. I am looking to sell my '97 Prelude type SH,(...moment of silence of the passing of a great coupe please) but looking at the market right now just leaves me depressed, I see nothing this side of 30G that really inspires me. I briefly considered the RSX-s, ultimately determined that was a lateral move at best, with many tradeoffs, and I still can't get over thinking- shortened Alero with scallop head/tail lights.
I have also heard similar complaints which some of you have mentioned about the Civic's rear suspension being said about the RSX's- being somewhat hoppy, and not feeling as stable at higher speeds, something I have never felt in the Prelude. The lude feels solid and is confidence inspiring at high speed, steering is very linear and responsive,(even at 100+MPH) and that is something that I would not want to give up.
In short, I would rather go with a larger Accord with true sport competence, more torque, 6MT(PLEASE), and double wishbone naturally. Don't let me down Honda, I'm on the verge of despair!