Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

stever

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flightnurse

@Mr_Shiftright said:
That Benz was the 2014 model right? I didn't think the 2015 C class is in the showrooms for another month or so? I can't keep track of all the model numbers anymore!

Funny you should ask this, here are the prices for the 2015 CLA and C class cars...

blog.caranddriver.com/price-check-mercedes-prices-all-new-2015-c-class-sedan-gla-class-crossover/

graphicguy

FN...thanks for that. The C400 sounds tasty. Under $50K? Loaded? Twin turbo V6? Yeah, I'd like that.

flightnurse

@graphicguy said:
FN...thanks for that. The C400 sounds tasty. Under $50K? Loaded? Twin turbo V6? Yeah, I'd like that.

The issue is MB sport suspension is not very sporty. But time will tell once they hit the market and the cars get reviewed.

graphicguy

FN....no disagreement about the Benz. But, based on my sister's C350 sport, it's tuned to where the vast majority of drivers would like a sports sedan to be tuned.

In all frankness, BMW is moving towards the type of tuning BMW and Audi have been slowly going towards for the last few years. The IS 350 is now the "sport sedan King" according to the trade rags.....a Lexus. Go figure!

It will be interesting when the C400 finally hits the streets. For what looks to be $5K-$7K less than a comparable 335ix or an S4, you get a Mercedes sports sedan.

Mr_Shiftright

Are there any links to the Benz 2015 USA-based coupes?

graphicguy

@Mr_Shiftright said:
Are there any links to the Benz 2015 USA-based coupes?

Not seen anything about the coupe specifically. MB has a general '15 C Class page, though.

Mr_Shiftright

I'm going to help a friend shop for a Benz next month or so. He's undecided between a new C class or an off-lease older E class. I suppose there is wisdom in both choices. I have to be careful not to influence the decision, but rather just "inform" it.

flightnurse

@graphicguy said:

It will be interesting when the C400 finally hits the streets. For what looks to be $5K-$7K less than a comparable 335ix or an S4, you get a Mercedes sports sedan.

We have talked about this before, 5-7K wont make a difference between people in the 50+K price range. People who like MB will buy MB and those who like BMW will BMW, and those who shop on price a lone really don't care what they drive... One is right or wrong, just want is important to you at the time.

graphicguy

@flightnurse said:

FN.....gotta disagree. I think the price delta matters more to those who are shopping in that price range. I'm a case in point.

sweendogy

Price def matters - a 10% difference means a lot. Just like when people talk about cross shopping under 35k it gets a little mixed with mainstream loaded sedans verse barebones sudo lux.

flightnurse

@graphicguy said:
FN.....gotta disagree. I think the price delta matters more to those who are shopping in that price range. I'm a case in point.

Graphic and I stated, that, "there are people who shop price and really don't care if it is a BMW, Audi, MB or Lexus.... But look at Mr. 28 Audi's for the most part he will get an Audi doesn't matter if he could have gotten a MB for $30 less a month.

flightnurse

Graphic here you go, the drive and test of the new Acrua TLX..

caranddriver.com/news/2015-acura-tlx-24l-35l-35l-sh-awd-first-drive-review

m6user

Here's another:
http://www.autoblog.com/2014/08/04/2015-acura-tlx-first-drive-review/

graphicguy

Thanks FN and M6....looks like Acura has a winner on its hands.

They all make the point that plopping in a 328/335 similarly equipped with similar performance is going to run way up the price scale. And, as was pointed out, like Audi and BMW, Acura's style is evolutionary, not revolutionary.

As previously mentioned, I want to hold onto my TL SH AWD at least until the warranty is up....which won't be for another couple of years. As it stands, I've had two oil changes and two tire rotations in 17,000 miles. That's it. I think maintenance has cost me about $140 in the 1.5 years I've had it.

It will be at the top of my shopping list when the time comes, though.

graphicguy

Opprtune posting....my Acura sales guy got two TLXs in stock....one 4 cyl, one 6. Just test drove both. Will give impressiosns when I have more time.

stickguy

nice. I will trust your reports more than the magazines!

nyccarguy

@graphicguy‌

Great write up on the 435i & C350. There are a few things the current (outgoing) C has going for it. Good old hydraulic, belt driven, power steering. An adaptive suspension that reacts to road conditions & steering inputs (electronically). MB is a big company and can throw major incentives in the form of trunk money, cheap financing, & attractive lease rates.

I agree that price is a factor, even when you get north of $50K.

graphicguy

Stick....thanks.

Get this out of the way up front, The TLX looks much better in person than the pics I've seen.

Dealer had two cars....one black with a sweet dark saddle interior. i really like that combo. The other one was white with black interior.

The interiors are a big upgrade over mine, and pretty much turns it into a leader in the segment. All controls move with precision and smoothness that lead the pack.

The 4 has an 8 speed, dual clutch trans. Fun drive. The DCT performs extremely well. Steering is light, and precise. It tightens up well as you gain speed....very linear.

Gun it, and it leaps. Quick, firm shifts with "blip" matching revs. It's as roomy inside as my TL. They say it has shorter front and rear overhangs. Maybe. Not sure. Plenty of rear seat room.

Seat of pants tells me 0-60 around 6-6.5 secs.

Leather is good...better than the fake stuff other brands tout. Better than most premium leathers in other premium brands.

Dual screens...top one for NAV. Bottom one for audio and HVAC. This car will compete well with 4 cyl A4s, 320/8i, C300 4 cyl.

The V6 was a FWD Advance. It was as loaded as any car I've ever driven. 9 speed push button trans. It's always in the right gear and will run to redline in every gear. It will snap to any gear firmly....right now!

Great seats, very high quality materials. Super quiet. Again...steering was light but tightened up at speed.

Suspension is really refined and sophisticated...comparable to a much more expensive car. Nothing seems to upset it....and I tried.

I expect 0-60 to be in the low to mid 5s. Like the 4, it loves to run and sounds/feels smooth, typical Acura motors. These just seem to want run hard.

P-AWS is slick....you point.....it goes...no drama, understeer well controlled....as fast as you dare to go.

I saw the MSRP of the V6 Advance.....~$42K. Not sure about the 4 cyl. That includes the ELS surround system (best I've heard in a car), lane keeping, intelligent cruise, sunroof, really nice leather, remote start...everything. A BMW 3 or 4, A/S4, C class would easily cost an extra $10K to $15K for something similar. Dealer said Acura is giving $1,500 discount and $500 in "add-ons" for anyone trading an '08 on up.

They had two demos (which I drove). But had sold the 4 they got in stock Last weekend.

This car is going to be a hit. Plus, the headlights are really cool.

stickguy

Makes me want one. The 4 would be plenty for me. 2 weeks back when I was in for service the salesman said the were giving a preorder discount, plus the $500 in ad dons if you put a deposit down to get on the list.

Does sound like it could be a hit.

graphicguy

stick....I can see the 4 cyl being the volume leader. That's a whole lot of car for mid-high $30s. Plus, it was fun to drive...built as good as anything I've ever driven...that includes some pretty nice cars.

My sales man, given his job is to sell cars, tried to get me to trade. He can't. The car is "too hot" right now for a skinny deal.

Anyone in the market in this segment owes it to themselves to put the TL at the top of their shopping list, though.

benjaminh

Accord EXL Navi vs. Acura TLX Tech

Since I love having built-in navi, this will be a comparison of the Accord EXL Navi ($30,835) with the Acura TLX with Tech Package ($35,025), and so we're looking at a difference of $5k. We all know that to get a good discount on a TLX anything close to what you can get on the Accord you'd need to wait c. 4-6 months for production to ramp up. But I can wait. My 2008 Accord EXL navi 5MT is working quite well, and is still under the HondaCare warranty all the way until Jan. of 2016.

Here's my very subjective evaluation of what each feature of the TLX might be "worth" to me personally, compared to an Accord EXL navi. I admit, I haven't yet been in the car, but I do trust Honda/Acura to create a good quality product, since I've owned 3 Accords and had good experiences with all of them....

8-speed dual-clutch transmission compared to CVT: $1000

206 hp engine compared to 185 for the Accord: $600

PAWS precision all-wheel steering: $600

larger performance tires/better alloy wheels: $600

Upgraded brakes (320mm vs. 292mm): $400

440-watt ELS Studio surround 10-speaker: $800

JewelEye LED headlights $300

60/40 split fold down seats: $300

Premium interior including Milano leather: $800

Very nice exterior+structural upgrades: $800

longer warranty: $400

tilt down mirrors: $200

paddle shifters: $300

Real Time Traffic: $200

Rain sensing wipers: $200

Blind Spot Info system: $300

Lane Keeping Assist: $300

Rear Cross Traffic Monitor: $300

Driver's side Knee airbag: $300

Integrated Dynamic System (Econ, Normal, Sport, Sport +): $400

-$600 for LaneWatch which comes with the Accord but not on the Acura.

Some of this stuff I have no idea if I'd like. Lane Keeping Assist? I hope I pay attention and drive for myself (wish everyone would hang-up and drive), but maybe useful....? Rain sensing wipers? Surely I'm not so lazy or blind that I can't turn the wipers on?? So I didn't put much down for those. I imagine an Acura engineer looking at how much time and $ it cost for them to put that in would be annoyed at me.

But a great sound system like the award-winning ELS set-up is worth a lot to me.

Quite possibly I'm still missing some things.

But anyway, admitting that this is very subjective and a total guess (since I haven't yet driven a TLX), but based on the strong reviews, as well as my strong trust in Honda/Acura this upgrade to the TLX seems to be "worth it" to me. In fact, it seems to add up to:

c. $8500 or so imaginary dollars of "worth it" to me for a c. 5k price.

Seems like Acura is trying to get back in the game by making the TLX a lot of car and a lot of tech for the money.

Sorry this is so long....

---

graphicguy

Benjamin....those of us who remember how Acura got into the U.S. luxury car market was by doing the exact same thing they're doing now. They're putting a very feature and tech rich car, that competes with drivetrain and suspension that rivals (sometimes exceeds) their much more expensive German counterparts.

Looks like they're getting back to that winning formula.

benjaminh

Yes. I remember admiring the original Legend in 1986 when I was in college for those very reasons. This one's about the size of the Legend too. And so maybe I'll get to own a TLX with a little ghost of a "Legend" in it after all.

It does seem to represent a great value for the money. And made in Ohio is a plus!+++ All three of my Accords were made at Marysville, and they have all been great cars.

nyccarguy

@graphicguy‌

I'm checking out the standard features on the "base" model for $30,995 and am digging it. All Wheel Steering, Bluetooth, Backup Camera, Dual Clutch Gearbox. Although I do like the 18" Wheels on the V6 model better.

Once these TLXs hit the streets, there are going to be some very nice used 2013 - 2014 TL SH AWDs getting traded in & leases ending for the mid-high $20s.

graphicguy

@nyccarguy said:
graphicguy‌

I'm checking out the standard features on the "base" model for $30,995 and am digging it. All Wheel Steering, Bluetooth, Backup Camera, Dual Clutch Gearbox. Although I do like the 18" Wheels on the V6 model better.

Once these TLXs hit the streets, there are going to be some very nice used 2013 - 2014 TL SH AWDs getting traded in & leases ending for the mid-high $20s.

Are you trying to push me, Bradd?

benjaminh

As nyccarguy says, the entry-level Acura TLX is quite lavishly equipped for $31k.

Out of curiosity, I just priced-out a BMW 320i with most (but far from all) of the equipment on the TLX Tech Pkg. The BMW 320i came to $42.5k, and yet was still missing several things found on the Acura.

sweendogy

I love the enthusiasm for acura- yeah- they are getting back to what they were as someone noted- so much for so cheap another wrote- and the best quote was from someone who said looks like some good deals coming. On 13-14 TL sh cars , cars that didn't sell to begin with. Hello - acura needs to show the enthusiast something. Infact they need to show the general buying public something- that something is a car that not only is cheaper - but performs (including mpg) and also looks good- now I have not seen or tested one- as another acura lover did here but reading this article says all -

http://www.nydailynews.com/autos/latest-reviews/beauty-queen-valedictorian-2015-acura-tlx-earns-high-marks-luxury-sedan-segment-article-1.1891166

Car forgot some stuff- 1) Looks - 2) performance - 3) mpg in "volume leader"

The last TL got lapped by every car in sales- performance and looks- even thou some like to believe the car actually looked good -(after compliments, really?)

The last tsx was no better then current accord that "all about the benjimens" is looking at.

I respect the review from past TL owneder but I will wait for the professionals in comparo test, also the eye test is huge (like the [non-permissible content removed] and grill on the last TL)-will it actually look ok, or do you have to get it in certain colors in order to escape the elephant man car a select few leased?

nyccarguy

Maybe if you can hold off for another year & a half we can do business;).

flightnurse

@benjaminh said:
As nyccarguy says, the entry-level Acura TLX is quite lavishly equipped for $31k.

Out of curiosity, I just priced-out a BMW 320i with most (but far from all) of the equipment on the TLX Tech Pkg. The BMW 320i came to $42.5k, and yet was still missing several things found on the Acura.

Some people want a FWD car and others want RWD,

stickguy

you live in the desert, right? Up in the north east (and north, and mid west) almost no one buys RWD. Would have to be AWD. Heck, in NJ, you basically can't find a new RWD in stock at most dealers. Everything they have is AWD.

sweendogy

@benjaminh you are right no excuse for 10k difference - RWD is very important for sure but again most are bot with auto and standard suspension set up and certainly in awd as I have not seen the cheapo 320 without it up east.

bmw you pay for badge for sure.

graphicguy

@nyccarguy said:
Maybe if you can hold off for another year & a half we can do business;).

Bradd....I'm not going anywhere.....

FN.....Until I was with my sister, test driving 320i/8i, I didn't see the appeal of the 320i. Driving one, if your priority is not stop light wars, but a well made, good handling car, the 320i offers all those attributes. Gotta say, you get a car that if you're careful with the options list, for mid-high $30s, that you don't have to worry about, at all, for anything, for 4 years, that's appealing.

Lots of reviews coming in for the TLS. Seems as if the press cars have some sort of glitch where there's some hesitation coming off the line when you first hit the gas. I didn't experience that. Both the 4 and 6 cvl pulled strongly at throttle tip in. I estimate 0-60 in the low 5 sec range, add a second to that for the 4 cyl.

Are they the fastest? No. But, they will be competitive to an ATS or CTS, A4, A6 (4 cyl), Infiniti Q (pick one), Lexus IS/ES. Unless you go to a blown V6 (like in the S4/A6) or turbo'd BMW motors (at much higher cost), you'll be right in line with the field. And, you'll have to climb the price ladder quite a bit to really get significantly better performance.

But, the suspension is where the car really shines. It feels as sophisticated as anything I've ever driven. It trumps BMW and BMW's own game. Ride/handling is superb.

Acuras are notorious for holding great resale. I can see this trend continuing. It is now back on top the tech heap, too. Good looking interior with high quality build and materials.

In short, it feels much more expensive than it is.

Can you tell I like the new TLS?

m6user

Usually when someone likes something very much they remember the name. LOL.

kyfdx

Data point: 30K mile service on the Infiniti G37X was quoted at $530.

flightnurse

@stickguy said:
you live in the desert, right? Up in the north east (and north, and mid west) almost no one buys RWD. Would have to be AWD. Heck, in NJ, you basically can't find a new RWD in stock at most dealers. Everything they have is AWD.

If you live in the NE and want a RWD car you can get them, might take you a little longer to do it. It's been interesting reading on BIMMERfest that people have bought RWD cars in the snow belt and have no issues getting around in the snow. So is it really necessary to have AWD cars?

sweendogy

@kyfdx - if you strip out a couple of items on the 30k service and do the must need items it's significantly cheaper - did the filters and wipers myself- car basically needs tires and oil- my experience of 39k was pretty good.

stickguy

might not be necessary, but most dealers feel it is. or at least have buyers brainwashed.

justg0

Acura's model is giving options standard that BMW and Audi charge for, and for a much lower price. I purchased the revamped MDX that came out in 2007 - think it was the 1st one Acura had introduced with sh-awd. Paid under50K for fully loaded. Similarly equipped BMW and Audi were north of 65K. There were quite a few car magazine reviews that had put that MDX best in terms of handling over X5 due to sh-awd. Not that was my priority, but it made the decision easier. I still have it and it is going strong with nothing more than regular scheduled maintenance.

That said, it still does not compare to driving a RWD BMW for me. I will have to drive a TLX to compare to the 320i that I just got.

Here's another review of TLX - http://www.digitaltrends.com/car-reviews/2015-acura-tlx-review/, recommending to get the four cylinder over v6. They say: if the V6 model is Tim Duncan, the four-cylinder is Chris Paul.

flightnurse

@graphicguy said:
But, the suspension is where the car really shines. It feels as sophisticated as anything I've ever driven. It trumps BMW and BMW's own game. Ride/handling is superb.

BMW has gotten a bad rap on the suspension/handling of the F30 and F10 cars but there is a easy fix to this, order the Dynamic Handling Package (DHP in BMW language) cost $1,400. BMW in the past had been criticized on how "harsh" it's ride was, so for the F30 they went a little softer (more on this) however, DHP allows BMW to have the best of both worlds, creating a softer ride and keeping the sporting handling. Graphic I'm surprised that the 4 series you drove did not have this. The only F30 not to get DHP is the 320, but this will change, the sales of 320i have exceeded BMW sale projection and for 2015 new options and color choices will be available to it.
My BMW dealer will be hosting their Ultimate Driving Experience here in the next week, I have reserved 3 cars, M235i, 428 Grand Coupe and 5 series Activehybrid.

Now regarding the F30 and it's soft ride, in our house we have a unique chance of driving two cars from two different mind sets. Ricks Genesis and my 320i. I think Rick has enough seat time in both cars to see first hand the difference between them. Latley, I would say the last 3 months Rick has been driving my car a little more and he is picking me up at the airport in it, he tells me the ride in my 320 had a better feel, a more "planted" feel on the road and the ride is more controlled then his Genesis also Rick says the steering has better feel.

flightnurse

@stickguy said:
might not be necessary, but most dealers feel it is. or at least have buyers brainwashed.

I'm thinking the brainwashing is it, but with all the new technology cars have other have stated they have no real issues once they have winter tires on the cars.

kyfdx

@sweendogy said:
kyfdx - if you strip out a couple of items on the 30k service and do the must need items it's significantly cheaper - did the filters and wipers myself- car basically needs tires and oil- my experience of 39k was pretty good.

Yeah.. if you don't do everything the manual calls for, then it's cheaper..

Mine goes back in October... with about 35K miles on it... I'll probably get hit for tires... I'm down to 5/32 now..

roadburner

@stickguy said:
might not be necessary, but most dealers feel it is. or at least have buyers brainwashed.

Heck, I've run into more than a few poor fools who say they can't buy a RWD car because they need something that they can drive in the rain. At first I thought they were joking, but they were serious. I suggested that what they really needed was public transit...

roadburner

@flightnurse said:
Rick says the steering has better feel.

Wow! The steering in the Genesis must be light-years beyond horrible...

stickguy

FN, I think that very few people have any interest in winter tires, outside of the "nuts" that live in Alaska or other huge snow areas. Even there, AWD and AS tires seems preferable.

I am in NJ. No one swaps here, unless they have dedicated hi po summer rubber, and half the time they don't either. That is fun to see in snow!

nyccarguy

@flightnurse‌

Yes RWD cars fitted with dedicated winter tires should do fine when the white stuff falls. @kyfdx and @roadburner both have RWD BMWs and have had ZERO problems getting around. I agree with @stickguy. For the most part, people don't want to be bothered. Me included. If you want a RWD BMW, MB, Lexus, Infiniti you'll have to special order it here in the North East. I'm also sure that you'll have to put down a hefty, non-refundable deposit too.

2 Winters (1 Mild, 1 Not So Mild) with AWD and All Season Tires and I'm impressed. BMW's X-Drive is so transparent and works so well that you'd be hard pressed to know when power is being sent up front.

My car passed its lease end inspection a few minutes ago. My time with an Inline 6 powered 328xi is almost up.

flightnurse

@roadburner said:
Wow! The steering in the Genesis must be light-years beyond horrible...

I wouldn't say that, it's really hard to explain, but the two car companies have different philosophy when it comes to how each of their cars perform. Now don't get me wrong, the Genesis is a great car, earlier this year I had to drive to San Diego weekly and on one drive took the Genesis it soaked up the miles... Just as a E class would, but not like how a F30 or F10 does. I feel people over state how the steering in the F30 really is, it's not the worse and it's not the best...

flightnurse

@stickguy said:
FN, I think that very few people have any interest in winter tires, outside of the "nuts" that live in Alaska or other huge snow areas. Even there, AWD and AS tires seems preferable.

I am in NJ. No one swaps here, unless they have dedicated hi po summer rubber, and half the time they don't either. That is fun to see in snow!

Big statement there stick... My time on Bimmerfest would say different, there are people who have pure performance tires and winter tires on winter rims and do swap them out. Like you, I wouldn't go that route to just much trouble, but there are people who do!

sweendogy

@flightnurse said:
Big statement there stick... My time on Bimmerfest would say different, there are people who have pure performance tires and winter tires on winter rims and do swap them out. Like you, I wouldn't go that route to just much trouble, but there are people who do!

Flight control to major tom-Big statement slick, really? It's true what he said - flight use other sources then Beamer fest to make points, you live in az. Most 320xis are leased along with the rest of the bmws in the country, those people who are leasing really going to throw down an extra 2k for tires/rims on a car they don't own? - I do the swap but I own the car and was given the extra rims. Never did it in the past- and now see then benefits of having both summer nd winters.

roadburner

@sweendogy said:
flight use other sources then Beamer fest to make points, you live in az.

So now we are discussing motorcycles?