Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

ab348

My point is that with a naturally aspirated engine you need to do lots of mechanical work to make more power - heads, pistons, intake, fuel system, etc. As it comes from the factory there is usually lots of margin or capacity left. A modern D.I. turbo engine removes much of that margin to get more power from a smaller engine. It is much more highly stressed, not only structurally on things like pistons and rings and bearings but also much more sensitive to oil life, adequate cooling, etc. Adding a tune exacerbates that.

Mr_Shiftright

Hopefully the turbo motor has been adequately strengthened, with mods for cooling and oiling. Turbos got a bad reputation in the early days because not much was done to the stock motors.

The "problem" with any turbo or SC option is that the forced induction will exploit any weakness that develops in the engine.

I have an aftermarket boost gauge on my car and I would hope all new turbo cars have them, too. Tells you what's going on in there.

circlew

Let's not even talk about what nitrous systems do to race engines.

Mr_Shiftright

A race engine has a whole different role (and life span) than a luxury car, of course. If a race engine gets you 1 foot over the finish line and then blows up, it's done its job.

qbrozen

I'd bet on a "highly-stressed" turbo built in recent years to be far far more reliable than my 1967 big block NA. Its all relative.

cdnpinhead

Mr_Shiftright said:

I have an aftermarket boost gauge on my car and I would hope all new turbo cars have them, too.

On what planet will this happen? Certainly not Earth. Cars today don't have water temperature or oil pressure gauges, or if they do they're often displaying artificial stuff.

Dream on.

qbrozen

Marketing: "The focus group has confirmed that consumers would like to have a boost gauge. 5% because they actually care, and 60% because they want to feel 'racier.'"

Finance: "Only if you can add it to the car at no additional cost."

Engineering: "Done! It consists of 4 LEDs that mark 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, and full boost. It estimates based on how quick the RPMs build and not any actual data or new sensors because cost and, let's face it, consumers are stupid and only need idiot lights. And the lawyers said we couldn't let everyone feel that 'racy' so we buried it in the 5th level of the nav menu."

henryn

I remember a few years back, in the Ford diesel truck forums, there was a debate about the oil pressure gauge. Most everyone had noticed that those gauges never showed anything but 5/8 of full pressure. An engineer (you know how engineers are) performed some tests and reported back that there were only two possible readings from that gauge. -- "0" (no reading) or "5/8 scale". As you varied the resistance to ground, the needle would jump from 0 to 5/8. No other readings were possible.

cdnpinhead

Thank you -- I rest my case. My baseline is my MG's Smith instruments that displayed oil pressure, coolant temperature and (head for the fainting couch) an ammeter, which involved heavy wiring in and out of the instrument panel, plus the obligatory fuel level. Anyway, they all read real stuff, and were quite helpful in monitoring the health (or lack thereof) of my little '65 MGB as I drove it through 44 states and six provinces in the late '60s and early'70s. I even added an oil temperature gauge, which was connected via a hollow tube to a bulb that inserted into a fitting that I had brazed into the oil pan during one of the several times I had the engine down. This is how I learned that it takes most of an hour or two for the oil to reach a stable temperature when the ambient temperature is below zero, for those of you who wonder why your fuel mileage sucks in the winter.

Good times.

0.05% of the people who drive BMWs (the ostensible "driver's car) understand a word of what I just said, let alone the rest of the driving public, who drive cheaper appliances. Yes, I'm a pi$$ed-off old man, but my TSX has well over 150K miles on it and is still fun to drive, even though it only displays fuel level, RPM and speed (along with about 17 lighted symbols that come on during startup, and hopefully go back off). At least I still have to drive (and shift) it.

ab348

At least into the '70s most Chrysler products had an ammeter in their instrument cluster. Unusual even for the times. They are now a source of fires and other problems in original cars where connections have corroded due to heat buildup resulting from increased resistance. It is surprising to me that it took so long for them to switch to voltmeters. At least they still provided a gauge of some sort..

qbrozen

Yup. My Coronet has that. Absolutely mind blowing to me that anyone ever thought routing the vehicles full electrical output through one wire through one gauge was a good idea. 

cdnpinhead

It was a different time, as they say. One I prefer, actually.

stickguy

my 74 duster had all kinds of gauges. No tach though.

sda

qbrozen said:

Yup. My Coronet has that. Absolutely mind blowing to me that anyone ever thought routing the vehicles full electrical output through one wire through one gauge was a good idea. 

How is the Coronet coming? Ready to drive soon. Pics?

qbrozen

sda said:

Yup. My Coronet has that. Absolutely mind blowing to me that anyone ever thought routing the vehicles full electrical output through one wire through one gauge was a good idea. 

How is the Coronet coming? Ready to drive soon. Pics?

Oh, very very slow, thanks for asking. Everything from the top end, including heads, is strewn about the garage floor. Most recently, I pulled the steering column and disassembled to replace the bearings. I found it has been pulled apart somewhere along the way and improper hardware used in reassembly. They actually taped nuts in place. So many fun times. 

sda

With older cars you never know what you’ll uncover. Certainly frustrating.

roadburner

stickguy said:

My son is going to get to take his genesis 3.3 out on the track at Watkins glen. 3 laps following the pace car. He’s looking forward to it. No clue how fast they will let him go though.

The Glen was the first track I ever drove; over the course of the day the weather went from cool and sunny to cold and raining. It was a bit intimidating at first, but it was fun. Your son needs to attend an HPDE there- not just a lead/follow cruise.

andres3

stickguy said:

My son is going to get to take his genesis 3.3 out on the track at Watkins glen. 3 laps following the pace car. He’s looking forward to it. No clue how fast they will let him go though.

When Audi did a travelling "Experience" drive with their own cars long ago (1st generation manual R8's and S5's), they told people to put in in 3rd gear, and keep it there, bouncing off the limiter, I think that limited speeds to the double digits maximum. This was lead-follow, but at pretty fast speeds for a beginner.

andres3

Mr_Shiftright said:

A race engine has a whole different role (and life span) than a luxury car, of course. If a race engine gets you 1 foot over the finish line and then blows up, it's done its job.

Not sure about that! Shouldn't you be able to do some donuts if you win the race?

andres3

circlew said:

10 year warranty on a twin turbo 365hp/376lb/ft. in 3.3 ltr package from Korea. No worries

Some members on Edmunds have reason to worry even when under warranty @jmonroe with the Korean automakers. He's not the only one with a muddy history on really cashing in on that 10-year only on paper warranty.

Mr_Shiftright

andres3 said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

A race engine has a whole different role (and life span) than a luxury car, of course. If a race engine gets you 1 foot over the finish line and then blows up, it's done its job.

Not sure about that! Shouldn't you be able to do some donuts if you win the race?

Can you even do donuts on an F1 car?

andres3

Mr_Shiftright said:

andres3 said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

A race engine has a whole different role (and life span) than a luxury car, of course. If a race engine gets you 1 foot over the finish line and then blows up, it's done its job.

Not sure about that! Shouldn't you be able to do some donuts if you win the race?

Can you even do donuts on an F1 car?

YES!

https://youtu.be/Tbnxs5QH5J4


FFW to 0:38 to speed along.

Mr_Shiftright

Well that's one way to warm up the tires!

dino001

andres3 said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

andres3 said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

A race engine has a whole different role (and life span) than a luxury car, of course. If a race engine gets you 1 foot over the finish line and then blows up, it's done its job.

Not sure about that! Shouldn't you be able to do some donuts if you win the race?

Can you even do donuts on an F1 car?

YES!

https://youtu.be/Tbnxs5QH5J4


FFW to 0:38 to speed along.

With this amount of torque, RWD and rear mounted engine, absolutely.

Mr_Shiftright

Do they really have much low end torque? I wouldn't think so, but I don't know the specs.

thebean

Those are just donuts - these are DONUTS.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PVcSCJZM8tU

ksoman

So much to learn here. But at the end of the day, nope. You may all be right, but you are all so wrong. The sweetness coming from decades of iteratively upgrading a good 6 cylinder cannot be replaced or displaced. At the end of the day, the very sound of a 4 banger with or without a turbo is awful, and if for no other reason, even that alone is one reason I don't want or like a 4 banger. But I'm running out of options to market forces. Also part of the reason I've started to lease and let the 99% shoulder the cost of my leases through tax writeoffs instead of buying these depreciating assets.

Mr_Shiftright

Or you could compromise like I did, and get a 5 cylinder!

ksoman

Haha. That's an option.

Mr_Shiftright

You get almost the torque of the 6, but alas, you don't get a very nice exhaust note on a 5 cylinder---it's....weird at best.

qbrozen

I appreciate a big burbly V8 just as much as the next macho guy, but no way in hell anyone could ever convince me this does NOT sound good!
https://youtu.be/-5K_Nvquft8?t=1476

stickguy

I’m very partial to a screaming 4 cyl.

Mr_Shiftright

Automatic? Really?

Whoa---22 lb of boost!

ksoman

qbrozen said:

I appreciate a big burbly V8 just as much as the next macho guy, but no way in hell anyone could ever convince me this does NOT sound good!
https://youtu.be/-5K_Nvquft8?t=1476

I recently got into the Giulia world (leased of course). about cheating my own love for 6's.

ksoman

Speaking of sales, have sales tanked two three floors below? What's with the explosion in calls I'm getting from dealers I may have contacted even a year ago?

qbrozen

Mr_Shiftright said:

Automatic? Really? 

Almost all of the supercars and exotics are doing it, so...

Mr_Shiftright

With just one clutch pedal, I can cripple an entire generation of drivers.

jpp75

This. It's always amusing to take the C30 to the car wash and watch them scramble to find someone who can drive it through.

Mr_Shiftright

And if you wrote a note in cursive script telling them how to drive it, they couldn't read it!

I brought the C30 to valet parking at an upscale restaurant last week and had the same issue. They looked at that 3rd pedal and when right to the handheld radios--like they were calling a casualty into headquarters.

They did find someone though. A keeper of the flame. Young kid. He started the car up and turned to me and said "Oh, a hot rod, hah?"

(there's a sport muffler on it).

stickguy

I won’t valet my AT cars. No chance in hades I was ever giving them the keys to one of my stickshift ones. And they weren’t even all that exotic.

stickguy

Speaking of colors (we are now) I left my car on the driveway his AM because it was covered with bugs and road grime, so was bathing it after walking the dog. Coming back up the block I could see quite a few houses, with many cars outside (I still am amazed that even with 2 car garages, so many people park outside).

Anyway, my car was mid-block, sticking out in all its red glory. Every other car I could see was black, white, silver or gray, with the lone exception a tan beetle that lives across the street (and practically disappears in front of a tan brick house!)

People need to get more color in their lives.

Mr_Shiftright

This place is so crowded they'll never get out of first gear.

Besides, you break me, you buy me.

ksoman

Some of the new autos are so so so so fast in shifting Mr. Shiftright....

Mr_Shiftright

They are faster than a human can operate a clutch---no argument from me there!

The point is--are you driving or are you steering?

ksoman

Paddles!

stickguy

Mr_Shiftright said:

They are faster than a human can operate a clutch---no argument from me there!

The point is--are you driving or are you steering?

might be relevant if you are driving flat out on a track. In normal driving, even the rare spirited back road type, I bet most people (including me) don't push the envelope to that extreme, so the fraction of a second difference is meaningless. But the tactile experience and sense of control isn't. ATs are IMO much more likely to spend time trying to hold a much too high gear, or hunting around for the right one, than they are to be snapping off powershifts at the redline.

They are more relaxing in stop and go traffic though. Not that lightning quick gear changes matter much in that use!

qbrozen

stickguy said:

ATs are IMO much more likely to spend time trying to hold a much too high gear, or hunting around for the right one, than they are to be snapping off powershifts at the redline.

That's what the flappy paddles are for.

stickguy

paddles in my experience are slower though. Usually a delay. Not that I use them much. If you want to shift, but a stick. if you get an automatic, let it do what it was designed to do.

Mr_Shiftright

My friend's Boxster has them. Even when driving on the twisties, this is NOT the same as shifting with a clutch pedal. It reminds me of driving a push-button Plymouth Valiant.

Sure, paddle shifting makes sense on a track, since that's where the whole idea originated!

qbrozen

Paddles are no longer slower. Well, not all. The ZF trannies are instantaneous, as are the PDK. And, yes, this is all about getting around faster. If I just want the feel of a car, then I’ll get an old 110hp miata with manual steering and manual brakes.