My point is that with a naturally aspirated engine you need to do lots of mechanical work to make more power - heads, pistons, intake, fuel system, etc. As it comes from the factory there is usually lots of margin or capacity left. A modern D.I. turbo engine removes much of that margin to get more power from a smaller engine. It is much more highly stressed, not only structurally on things like pistons and rings and bearings but also much more sensitive to oil life, adequate cooling, etc. Adding a tune exacerbates that.
Hopefully the turbo motor has been adequately strengthened, with mods for cooling and oiling. Turbos got a bad reputation in the early days because not much was done to the stock motors.
The "problem" with any turbo or SC option is that the forced induction will exploit any weakness that develops in the engine.
I have an aftermarket boost gauge on my car and I would hope all new turbo cars have them, too. Tells you what's going on in there.
A race engine has a whole different role (and life span) than a luxury car, of course. If a race engine gets you 1 foot over the finish line and then blows up, it's done its job.
I have an aftermarket boost gauge on my car and I would hope all new turbo cars have them, too.
On what planet will this happen? Certainly not Earth. Cars today don't have water temperature or oil pressure gauges, or if they do they're often displaying artificial stuff.
Marketing: "The focus group has confirmed that consumers would like to have a boost gauge. 5% because they actually care, and 60% because they want to feel 'racier.'"
Finance: "Only if you can add it to the car at no additional cost."
Engineering: "Done! It consists of 4 LEDs that mark 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, and full boost. It estimates based on how quick the RPMs build and not any actual data or new sensors because cost and, let's face it, consumers are stupid and only need idiot lights. And the lawyers said we couldn't let everyone feel that 'racy' so we buried it in the 5th level of the nav menu."
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I remember a few years back, in the Ford diesel truck forums, there was a debate about the oil pressure gauge. Most everyone had noticed that those gauges never showed anything but 5/8 of full pressure. An engineer (you know how engineers are) performed some tests and reported back that there were only two possible readings from that gauge. -- "0" (no reading) or "5/8 scale". As you varied the resistance to ground, the needle would jump from 0 to 5/8. No other readings were possible.
Thank you -- I rest my case. My baseline is my MG's Smith instruments that displayed oil pressure, coolant temperature and (head for the fainting couch) an ammeter, which involved heavy wiring in and out of the instrument panel, plus the obligatory fuel level. Anyway, they all read real stuff, and were quite helpful in monitoring the health (or lack thereof) of my little '65 MGB as I drove it through 44 states and six provinces in the late '60s and early'70s. I even added an oil temperature gauge, which was connected via a hollow tube to a bulb that inserted into a fitting that I had brazed into the oil pan during one of the several times I had the engine down. This is how I learned that it takes most of an hour or two for the oil to reach a stable temperature when the ambient temperature is below zero, for those of you who wonder why your fuel mileage sucks in the winter.
Good times.
0.05% of the people who drive BMWs (the ostensible "driver's car) understand a word of what I just said, let alone the rest of the driving public, who drive cheaper appliances. Yes, I'm a pi$$ed-off old man, but my TSX has well over 150K miles on it and is still fun to drive, even though it only displays fuel level, RPM and speed (along with about 17 lighted symbols that come on during startup, and hopefully go back off). At least I still have to drive (and shift) it.
At least into the '70s most Chrysler products had an ammeter in their instrument cluster. Unusual even for the times. They are now a source of fires and other problems in original cars where connections have corroded due to heat buildup resulting from increased resistance. It is surprising to me that it took so long for them to switch to voltmeters. At least they still provided a gauge of some sort..
Yup. My Coronet has that. Absolutely mind blowing to me that anyone ever thought routing the vehicles full electrical output through one wire through one gauge was a good idea.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Yup. My Coronet has that. Absolutely mind blowing to me that anyone ever thought routing the vehicles full electrical output through one wire through one gauge was a good idea.
How is the Coronet coming? Ready to drive soon. Pics?
2021 VW Arteon SEL 4-motion, 2018 VW Passat SE w/tech, 2016 Audi Q5 Premium Plus w/tech
Yup. My Coronet has that. Absolutely mind blowing to me that anyone ever thought routing the vehicles full electrical output through one wire through one gauge was a good idea.
How is the Coronet coming? Ready to drive soon. Pics?
Oh, very very slow, thanks for asking. Everything from the top end, including heads, is strewn about the garage floor. Most recently, I pulled the steering column and disassembled to replace the bearings. I found it has been pulled apart somewhere along the way and improper hardware used in reassembly. They actually taped nuts in place. So many fun times.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
My son is going to get to take his genesis 3.3 out on the track at Watkins glen. 3 laps following the pace car. He’s looking forward to it. No clue how fast they will let him go though.
The Glen was the first track I ever drove; over the course of the day the weather went from cool and sunny to cold and raining. It was a bit intimidating at first, but it was fun. Your son needs to attend an HPDE there- not just a lead/follow cruise.
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
My son is going to get to take his genesis 3.3 out on the track at Watkins glen. 3 laps following the pace car. He’s looking forward to it. No clue how fast they will let him go though.
When Audi did a travelling "Experience" drive with their own cars long ago (1st generation manual R8's and S5's), they told people to put in in 3rd gear, and keep it there, bouncing off the limiter, I think that limited speeds to the double digits maximum. This was lead-follow, but at pretty fast speeds for a beginner.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
A race engine has a whole different role (and life span) than a luxury car, of course. If a race engine gets you 1 foot over the finish line and then blows up, it's done its job.
Not sure about that! Shouldn't you be able to do some donuts if you win the race?
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
10 year warranty on a twin turbo 365hp/376lb/ft. in 3.3 ltr package from Korea. No worries
Some members on Edmunds have reason to worry even when under warranty @jmonroe with the Korean automakers. He's not the only one with a muddy history on really cashing in on that 10-year only on paper warranty.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
A race engine has a whole different role (and life span) than a luxury car, of course. If a race engine gets you 1 foot over the finish line and then blows up, it's done its job.
Not sure about that! Shouldn't you be able to do some donuts if you win the race?
A race engine has a whole different role (and life span) than a luxury car, of course. If a race engine gets you 1 foot over the finish line and then blows up, it's done its job.
Not sure about that! Shouldn't you be able to do some donuts if you win the race?
A race engine has a whole different role (and life span) than a luxury car, of course. If a race engine gets you 1 foot over the finish line and then blows up, it's done its job.
Not sure about that! Shouldn't you be able to do some donuts if you win the race?
So much to learn here. But at the end of the day, nope. You may all be right, but you are all so wrong. The sweetness coming from decades of iteratively upgrading a good 6 cylinder cannot be replaced or displaced. At the end of the day, the very sound of a 4 banger with or without a turbo is awful, and if for no other reason, even that alone is one reason I don't want or like a 4 banger. But I'm running out of options to market forces. Also part of the reason I've started to lease and let the 99% shoulder the cost of my leases through tax writeoffs instead of buying these depreciating assets.
I appreciate a big burbly V8 just as much as the next macho guy, but no way in hell anyone could ever convince me this does NOT sound good! https://youtu.be/-5K_Nvquft8?t=1476
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I appreciate a big burbly V8 just as much as the next macho guy, but no way in hell anyone could ever convince me this does NOT sound good! https://youtu.be/-5K_Nvquft8?t=1476
I recently got into the Giulia world (leased of course). about cheating my own love for 6's.
Speaking of sales, have sales tanked two three floors below? What's with the explosion in calls I'm getting from dealers I may have contacted even a year ago?
And if you wrote a note in cursive script telling them how to drive it, they couldn't read it!
I brought the C30 to valet parking at an upscale restaurant last week and had the same issue. They looked at that 3rd pedal and when right to the handheld radios--like they were calling a casualty into headquarters.
They did find someone though. A keeper of the flame. Young kid. He started the car up and turned to me and said "Oh, a hot rod, hah?"
Speaking of colors (we are now) I left my car on the driveway his AM because it was covered with bugs and road grime, so was bathing it after walking the dog. Coming back up the block I could see quite a few houses, with many cars outside (I still am amazed that even with 2 car garages, so many people park outside).
Anyway, my car was mid-block, sticking out in all its red glory. Every other car I could see was black, white, silver or gray, with the lone exception a tan beetle that lives across the street (and practically disappears in front of a tan brick house!)
They are faster than a human can operate a clutch---no argument from me there!
The point is--are you driving or are you steering?
might be relevant if you are driving flat out on a track. In normal driving, even the rare spirited back road type, I bet most people (including me) don't push the envelope to that extreme, so the fraction of a second difference is meaningless. But the tactile experience and sense of control isn't. ATs are IMO much more likely to spend time trying to hold a much too high gear, or hunting around for the right one, than they are to be snapping off powershifts at the redline.
They are more relaxing in stop and go traffic though. Not that lightning quick gear changes matter much in that use!
ATs are IMO much more likely to spend time trying to hold a much too high gear, or hunting around for the right one, than they are to be snapping off powershifts at the redline.
That's what the flappy paddles are for.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
paddles in my experience are slower though. Usually a delay. Not that I use them much. If you want to shift, but a stick. if you get an automatic, let it do what it was designed to do.
My friend's Boxster has them. Even when driving on the twisties, this is NOT the same as shifting with a clutch pedal. It reminds me of driving a push-button Plymouth Valiant.
Sure, paddle shifting makes sense on a track, since that's where the whole idea originated!
Paddles are no longer slower. Well, not all. The ZF trannies are instantaneous, as are the PDK. And, yes, this is all about getting around faster. If I just want the feel of a car, then I’ll get an old 110hp miata with manual steering and manual brakes.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Comments
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
The "problem" with any turbo or SC option is that the forced induction will exploit any weakness that develops in the engine.
I have an aftermarket boost gauge on my car and I would hope all new turbo cars have them, too. Tells you what's going on in there.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Dream on.
Finance: "Only if you can add it to the car at no additional cost."
Engineering: "Done! It consists of 4 LEDs that mark 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, and full boost. It estimates based on how quick the RPMs build and not any actual data or new sensors because cost and, let's face it, consumers are stupid and only need idiot lights. And the lawyers said we couldn't let everyone feel that 'racy' so we buried it in the 5th level of the nav menu."
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Good times.
0.05% of the people who drive BMWs (the ostensible "driver's car) understand a word of what I just said, let alone the rest of the driving public, who drive cheaper appliances. Yes, I'm a pi$$ed-off old man, but my TSX has well over 150K miles on it and is still fun to drive, even though it only displays fuel level, RPM and speed (along with about 17 lighted symbols that come on during startup, and hopefully go back off). At least I still have to drive (and shift) it.
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
2021 VW Arteon SEL 4-motion, 2018 VW Passat SE w/tech, 2016 Audi Q5 Premium Plus w/tech
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
2021 VW Arteon SEL 4-motion, 2018 VW Passat SE w/tech, 2016 Audi Q5 Premium Plus w/tech
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
FFW to 0:38 to speed along.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Whoa---22 lb of boost!
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I brought the C30 to valet parking at an upscale restaurant last week and had the same issue. They looked at that 3rd pedal and when right to the handheld radios--like they were calling a casualty into headquarters.
They did find someone though. A keeper of the flame. Young kid. He started the car up and turned to me and said "Oh, a hot rod, hah?"
(there's a sport muffler on it).
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Anyway, my car was mid-block, sticking out in all its red glory. Every other car I could see was black, white, silver or gray, with the lone exception a tan beetle that lives across the street (and practically disappears in front of a tan brick house!)
People need to get more color in their lives.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Besides, you break me, you buy me.
The point is--are you driving or are you steering?
They are more relaxing in stop and go traffic though. Not that lightning quick gear changes matter much in that use!
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Sure, paddle shifting makes sense on a track, since that's where the whole idea originated!
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S