Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

stickguy

drive a TLX if you haven't already. Even the FWD handles very nicely, and does not feel overly FWDish. I have not driven a TLX AWD, but I have driven SH-AWD on other models, and it is very nice.

tjc78

I'm going to. It will be easy since my buddy here at work has one. One day when we go to lunch, I'll ask him to flip me the keys.

benjaminh

Since I was a teenager one of my dream cars has been the BMW 3-series. The new generation of this car seems like it's really good, but prices have climbed steadily over the years and the least expensive 2019 BMW 3-series at BMW of Louisville has an msrp of about $47,000....

https://www.louisvillebmw.com/new-Jefferson+County-2019-BMW-3+Series-Base-WBA5R7C57KFH22142

That's a lot of money.

stickguy

I am in the same boat. I almost bought a 5 series in 2001 but backed out due to cost ($38K purchase price even back then). though a 3 series now is about as big, better equipped, and if you get a loaner, about the same price!

maybe someday, but the ship probably sailed. Plus we are likely looking at an X3 at this point, so even more cha-ching.

benjaminh

stickguy said:

I am in the same boat. I almost bought a 5 series in 2001 but backed out due to cost ($38K purchase price even back then). though a 3 series now is about as big, better equipped, and if you get a loaner, about the same price!

maybe someday, but the ship probably sailed. Plus we are likely looking at an X3 at this point, so even more cha-ching.

I realize you're right that the 3-series of today is as big as the 5-series of a couple of decades ago, making it seem like a better deal. An entry-level 3-series on the BMW website without any options and in white or black starts at $42k or so, but in the real world I don't think you'd ever find any like that. They no longer make the de-powered 320i, which I feel mixed about, and so even an entry level 330i is now about the same in performance as V-6 TLX. But since I don't need that much power....

kyfdx

2001 5-Series: 184/225 HP
2019 3-Series: 248 HP

stickguy

Everything has more HP now.

Size wise, they are about the same was my point.

benjaminh

The 5-series from 1995 to 2003 had a length of c. 188 inches, while the 2019 3-series is 185.7 inches long. Close!

The current Acura TLX is 190.7.

The current 5-series is 194.6.

stickguy

I think cars also got a lot wider in recent years. While my garage door opening didn’t.

benjaminh

Edmunds seems to like driving the Tesla Model 3 a little bit more than a BMW 3-series....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpFe8k1vjcg&t=303s

benjaminh

This review of 26,000 miles of ownership in a Tesla Model 3 says that compared to a similar gas car he's saved about $2000 by using electricity instead of gasoline. But the Telsa Model 3 with a few options is, as he says, a $50,000 car on which you can't get any discounts. Because of big discounts and lease incentives I paid close to $30,000 for my more luxurious TLX. With that $20,000 difference there's no way even at 2k in fuel savings a year that you'll come out ahead. And I don't drive 26k miles a year, but more like 14k. And so the fuel savings would maybe be more like $1200. Plus my guess is that by the time he gets to 100,000 miles, if he keeps the Model 3 that long, he might need to replace the batteries, which might be a c. $10,000 repair, while with maintenance and good luck the engine and transmission on a TLX might go past 200k without major repairs. The TLX has environmental costs, but so does getting rid of or trying to recycle a huge number of Tesla batteries. The bottom line is that the costs for long-term ownership still favors the TLX big a big margin as far as I can see. I see the appeal, but the math just doesn't seem to add up unless you are so well off that costs aren't really a significant factor....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6r5SRM2H3A

PS Finally, the expensive extended range version of the Model 3 will go about 300 miles before it needs a recharge, while the TLX 2.4 can go twice that on the highway.

carnaught

I just can’t get past range anxiety. That and the practicality factor for my purposes make it not work for me. IMHO, the styling is meh.

benjaminh

carnaught said:

I just can’t get past range anxiety. That and the practicality factor for my purposes make it not work for me. IMHO, the styling is meh.

The extended range Model 3 can go c.300 miles, which is sort-of ok. But once it's empty even at a Supercharger it takes over an hour to get close to a full recharge—compared to a fill-up of an ICE car at a gas station that takes at most ten minutes. For most road trips I just don't think that I want to stop that long at a Supercharger station in a strip mall or whatever.

But I actually really like the styling of all Tesla vehicles.

benjaminh

According to this new study, the 5-year total cost of ownership for a base Tesla Model 3 is less than that for a Toyota Camry LE....

https://loupventures.com/tesla-model-3-cost-of-ownership-slightly-cheaper-than-a-camry/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gztjB5LeCJg

benjaminh

According to this video, the Tesla Model 3 might be the safest passenger car in America....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkayYiwrjyQ

roadburner

As I posted in another discussion...
The Club Sport is at the dealer for its annual service, and my service advisor gave me an M340i xDrive for a
loaner.




First impressions:
It’s maybe a tick faster than my 2 Series, but the xDrive filters the fun too much for my tastes. I scared a friend quite a bit accelerating through a corner flat out when he thought I was going to lift and brake.
I like the interior a lot- including the glass cockpit.
I like the latest generation of iDrive, but it’s considerably different from what I’m used to.
The voice recognition works quickly and accurately.
The base sound system is surprisingly good. I’d still want to audition the H-K upgrade, but the standard system is no slouch.
It’s still too big for my tastes, but the car masks its bulk to an impressive degree.
An M240i with the M340i cockpit, 382 hp motor, and M Sport diff would be just about perfect for me.

benjaminh

It looks like annual sales of the Tesla Model 3 for 2019 might exceed 200,000, outselling all other ELL cars by a huge margin.

https://cleantechnica.com/2019/08/10/tesla-model-3-outsold-bmw-mercedes-audi-lexus-competitors-in-2nd-quarter-in-usa-by-a-landslide/

carnaught

@benjaminh, sounds like your next car?

benjaminh

carnaught said:

@benjaminh, sounds like your next car?

I still have 2 years left on the lease for my Acura TLX. But maybe after that? Probably not. I'm more likely to buy the TLX for 18.5k at that point.

But the Tesla Model 3 does seem like it's a really good car. After watching all these videos my doubts about it are slowly falling away. The big thing I wonder about is what happens with the batteries after ten years....

benjaminh

The battery warranty for the Tesla seems pretty good....

"Model 3 - 8 years or 100,000 miles, whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity over the warranty period."

https://www.tesla.com/support/vehicle-warranty

And....

"Model 3 with Long-Range Battery - 8 years or 120,000 miles, whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity over the warranty period."

But that still seems like it means that at somewhere around ten years Tesla expects the batteries to wear out. At that point the car is out of warranty and loses most of its resale value. A ten year old Acura in good shape, on the other hand, might still have ten more years of life without major repairs.

dino001

benjaminh said:

It looks like annual sales of the Tesla Model 3 for 2019 might exceed 200,000, outselling all other ELL cars by a huge margin.

https://cleantechnica.com/2019/08/10/tesla-model-3-outsold-bmw-mercedes-audi-lexus-competitors-in-2nd-quarter-in-usa-by-a-landslide/

I don't think so. It's much more likely US sales will revert closer to Q1 numbers than maintain Q2 numbers. Anybody, who read what Tesla actually had to do to get to those Q2 numbers would know there was a lot of one-time moves, just like Q4 of last year. I think a much more likely number is missing 200k target by a small margin. Much more interesting to me is how many new EV buyers are left in the current market. Those who wanted one, got it (most of them anyway) and they can pray to it, if that's their fancy. Now it's about people like myself - I have the money, I COULD buy it even at current prices, if I wanted to. There are aspects about those vehicles that I like and respect, but I'm not even considering it at this point. One reason is I'm not completely convinced Tesla will be around in five years, or to be more precise, I think the probability of complete failure of the company is significantly higher than zero (in mathematical terms "non-trivial"). I can't ignore this in my calculus. That's on top of the lack of energy portability that's offered in gasoline engine. It could do well as a second vehicle in the house, but simply I have no space for two vehicles.

benjaminh

Tesla seemingly is on the edge financially. My guess is that they are going to pull through and be a major player in the growing electric car market for years to come. But we'll see....

benjaminh

https://loupventures.com/tesla-model-3-cost-of-ownership-slightly-cheaper-than-a-camry/

"Average all-in cost per mile for a Model 3 is $0.46, compared to the Camry LE at $0.49, and Audi A5 at $0.80."

This study claims to show that a Tesla Model 3 costs less over 5 years than a Toyota Camry, which is shocking.

But I don't agree with some of the numbers that were used. For instance, it says that maintenance and repairs for a Camry over 5 years will be about $4000, but my guess is that it would be about half of that (10 oil changes x $50 each =$500 + 4 tires for c.$1000 + 500 additional would be my estimate). The Tesla model was c. $39k on which no discounts are possible, but with a Camry for c.$25k you might get $4000 off of msrp, which they didn't indicate. So I feel like the study is about $6000 off in favor of the Tesla. Finally, although the Tesla battery has a 8 years/100,000 mile warranty, I'm wondering if you own the Tesla for 10 years and 150,000 or more miles if a new $8000 or so battery is likely to be needed.

Still, the bottom line is that the economics may possibly be shifting toward electrics, and specifically Tesla. There's no doubt that a Tesla is cheaper over 5 years than their other comparison, which was an Audi A5. And now Elon Musk says that starting next year the design life of the battery for the Model 3 will more than double:

https://electrek.co/2019/04/23/tesla-battery-million-miles-elon-musk/

If this pans out, this means that in a year or two the batteries of a Teslas Model 3 will be able to last maybe as much as 500,000 miles. The electric motors for a Tesla are already likely to last at least 500,000 miles, because well-designed electric motors are inherently longer lasting than most internal combustion engines.

Plus there are no oil changes etc. For high-mileage drivers the Tesla might become a top choice, because the cost per mile driven would almost certainly be quite low.

I've gone from being a Tesla skeptic to someone who thinks there might be something to this.

benjaminh

According to Elon Musk....

"Model 3 drive unit & body is designed like a commercial truck for a million mile life. Current battery modules should last 300k to 500k miles (1500 cycles). Replacing modules (not pack) will only cost $5k to $7k."

https://electrek.co/2019/04/13/tesla-model-3-longevity-claims-elon-musk/

stickguy

there are still limits to a full electric that would prevent me from getting one. Unless it was really cheap (as opposed to really expensive, which they are), and I truly just needed a 2nd car for pure local duty.

the problem is, they are expensive, and we can only afford one car in that high price range, and it will be the one we take on trips. So, the train ain't meeting on this one! No way I am taking one on say Christmas eve trip at 10 PM across the boondocks of NYS, in usually crappy weather, and have to be trying to find a charging station in an area I would really prefer not to stop in! Or get out to charge then sit there for 2 hours while it does.

even worse if you can't afford more than say a leaf or Bolt. Not a suitable family truckster travel car anyway.

benjaminh

With discounts the two of us got our TLXs for c. $30k, and these cars have a c.450 mile range per tank in mixed driving. The "long-range" Tesla Model 3 has a range of c.300 miles, and it costs about $48k and has no discounts. If we keep them, our TLXs should be able to last with good maintenance and a bit of luck well over 200,000 miles. The interior luxury of a TLX looks to me like it's beyond a Model 3.

The long-range $48k Tesla seems out of my price range. But over 10 years and 150,000 miles it might be less per mile driven than even a TLX 2.4. But over the three years of our lease I think we are way ahead. And my guess is that over 5 years we will be ahead too.

In terms of range anxiety, there's a video that makes some sense that says that gas engines produce just as much range anxiety as a Tesla. His argument is basically that because you each day charge your Tesla at home and/or at work up to maybe 250 miles or so of charge, and never have to stop even at a Supercharge station, you never have range anxiety in normal driving of commuting and shopping around town. With a gas engine, however, you do have to think about filling up so that you don't run out of gas.

On a trip with a Tesla there is some range anxiety, but that's minimized by the Tesla Supercharger network. The included Tesla trip software calculates out your trip and guides you exactly to each recommended Supercharger based on your car's range. A long trip in a Tesla is slower because of the c. 45 minute or so charging times, but since often we need to stop for a meal and a little sight-seeing every 250 miles or so anyway, it's not as much of a slowdown as we might expect....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zvb7gV0GRNE&t=544s

I still love my Acura. But I'm beginning to hope that by the time I get my next car that Acura will just buy some of Tesla's tech and also buy access to the Supercharger network. Elon Musk apparently said quite a while ago that he'd be ok with selling to another car maker access to the Supercharger network, but that so far no one has taken him up on it.

stickguy

well, I am not buying that logic! driving around local means gassing up once a week or 2. and there are stations everywhere, so if you are getting low you just swing into one, and 5 minutes later gassed up and on your way.

but in the same usage, an EV would not concern me. It really is travelling that does it. and we don't normally stop much. gas if going 400+ miles (well, in my car, 300 in the RDX!), otherwise just a quick pit stop for bathroom and stretch, and if eating it will be a quick food place. and driving in rural areas at weird times, which we do, is really not going to be comfortable in an EV.

Kind of a moot point anyway for us, because we can't afford the EV equivalent of the car we would like to have as our one nice set of wheels!

benjaminh

I think I agree with all of your points for now.

But if Elon's predictions pan out, in 2 more years (when my lease is up) I might be able to get a Model 3 that has a 400 mile range, charges in half the time of current models (in other words, takes about 20 minutes to go from 20% charge to 80%), and lasts the rest of my life—even if I drive all over the country multiple times—with minimal maintenance and no gas.

But since I'm already 54, I think my Acura TLX could well last till I'm 70—if I make it to that age.

benjaminh

Preview of the next-generation Acura TLX Type S by Kelley Blue Book. Guesses are that the next-gen TLX will arrive as a 2021 model sometime next summer. I think it looks good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAfjIt33ilI

sda

As some of you know I was forced to find another job as the firm I worked for 2.5 years closed its location Charlotte and moved those positions to the home office in MA. My new job requires me to work downtown, about 6 blocks from my wife. As she is already paying $$$ to park we have been commuting in together. So far so good but certainly a change from me driving separately and listening to my radio stations, etc. At this rate I don’t see replacing the Accord anytime soon as it is only driven on weekends and the occasional day when I need to drive in separately.

tjc78

I just did the opposite. After nearly 10 years of commuting together wife and I are now separate. It feels weird, but now I can rock out to 80s on 8 or Hair Nation while she listens to her Pitbull radio lol

ab348

tjc78 said:

I just did the opposite. After nearly 10 years of commuting together wife and I are now separate. It feels weird, but now I can rock out to 80s on 8 or Hair Nation while she listens to her Pitbull radio lol

She obviously must have many other good qualities because that one tendency might be grounds for divorce!!

When I had XM, 80s on 8 was my main choice, though the repetition got tiresome after a while.

tjc78

Ha Ha...
All the stations get a little repetitive, I bounce around a lot to try and avoid that.

stickguy

That’s the problem with any oldies genre station. They aren’t making any new songs and the catalogue of old ones isn’t that big.

So branch out, and listen to new music!

ab348

stickguy said:

That’s the problem with any oldies genre station. They aren’t making any new songs and the catalogue of old ones isn’t that big.

So branch out, and listen to new music!

There is no shortage of music from any era. The problem is that stations both OTA and satellite maintain limited playlists based on criteria they believe will keep the majority of their listeners happy. I have several thousand tunes from my preferred era to choose from and keep hundreds of them on USB for use in the car. Mix them up every so often, dropping ones I get tired of and adding others, and create new playlists when I do. Don't ever listen to radio now.

I have no desire to seek out new music because most of it leaves me cold. An affliction of my age.

benjaminh

I sometimes listen to Sirius XMU ch. 35, and this was a 21st century song I heard recently that I liked. The band is Broken Bells, and the song is called The High Road....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewYujUMqDQI

Back on topic, here's Acura's new video for the new 2021 TLX Type S concept:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wmyw7oxIIJc

benjaminh

I know Scotty Kilmer is controversial, but from his pov he thinks that newer BMW's have some long-term reliability issues. He says that an increased used of plastics for some engine parts is one of the problems....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eS9duddPqUI

benjaminh

Scotty Kilmer likes Lexus....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RI6r22ctge8

stickguy

Not just bmw, but he has a good point about plastic parts in the engine.

benjaminh

My Acura lease will be up in 23 months and at that point I can buy the car for about $18,500. Would it make economic sense for me to try to get a $40k Tesla Model 3 instead? Doesn't seem like it, unless I'm missing something. Although the TLX will cost c. $1500 more each year in gas and maintenance compared to a Model 3, even over ten years that doesn't come close to erasing the nearly $22k difference.

If, however, by July of 2021 Acura has an electric car that has an msrp of maybe $38k it might make sense. First, my guess is that unlike a Tesla that goes for full msrp you might get a discount on an electric Acura. And then you'd get the federal tax credit of $7500 that has already almost expired for Tesla. Between the two of those things it might make sense for me to go electric—if it's Acura or Honda.

But if I end up keeping the TLX that would be fine with me, because so far I love driving it.

benjaminh

Scotty Kilmer dislikes working on Minis and says that they are junk. (In fact, he dislikes them so much that his language becomes somewhat insensitive.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lp0LdnreYmE

qbrozen

We need a special “thumbs down Scotty” button. ;b

tjc78

+1

ab348

Once TPTB figure out why the software sometimes goes on strike against images then maybe they can get started on the muting functions. I would support a "Mute Scotty" button.

roadburner

He is a complete moron.

benjaminh

A positive review of the MB A220, but...."That stubby trunk lid betrays a tiny cargo space, sadly – only 8.6 narrow cubic feet of space back there...."

https://forums.edmunds.com/discussion/2864/general/x/entry-level-luxury-performance-sedans#latest

benjaminh

Luxury VW Arteon hatchback sedan....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-LJGn24VP8

benjaminh

Telsa Model 3 features....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHqlSQplIVk

jpp75

My cousin and his family just returned to the US after living abroad for a few years which meant they had to purchase cars. His wife got a Model 3, Dual Motor and she absolutely loves it. I've had the opportunity to drive it a couple of times and definitely enjoy it. I've told @Michaell and @breld, if you want an electric car this is a no brainer. However, if you're looking to spend $40 - $50k on a vehicle you'll definitely find something you like better.

ab348

benjaminh said:

Telsa Model 3 features....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHqlSQplIVk

Nash seats! There's nothing new under the sun...