Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

kyfdx

4-door: I'm not cool
Sport pkg: I'm cool
steptronic: I'm not cool
M68 wheels: I'm cool
Wife's car: I'm not cool

SShheewwww... I'm happy

speedracer3

Chris,

CVT is sooo smooth. No abrupt jerks as your tranny goes from one gear to the next...actually, no shifting sensation at all, just the pure rush of seemless accelaration. It takes a little to get used to it, but once you are, you think of other automatics as unrefined.

Blue,

The Nissan CVT (called Xtroid) can handle massive amounts of torque. Nissan has been using CVT in mosters as the Cedric and Gloria in Japan for years. For once, Audi is way behind on this one.

Billy,

True, the Millenia S is quite a barn stormer. The standard L (which is the one I have) is such a dog that I've been lapped by old ladies on walkers.

brightness04

Actually, the BMW is FAR better in traffic. Put it in second and you can take the car down to 2-3 mph without touching the clutch and take it all the way to 60 from there. As long as you don't come to a total stop it's not bad at all in a bimmer.

OTOH, a total stop makes a manual BMW, with its long pedal travel, no fun at all. In rush hour traffic, unfortunately, total stops are frequent and necessary in order to stay close to the car in front of you; 2-5mph slow drift would be asking for being cut off.

saugatak

And I drive 80-90 miles a day in rush hour, with a muscle disorder that limits my mobility and makes my limbs sore. So don't give me the tired leg garbage. A little pain is worth the reward...

No wonder you're so crabby on these forums sometimes.

kdshapiro

"unfortunately, total stops are frequent and necessary in order to stay close to the car in front of you; 2-5mph slow drift would be asking for being cut off."

Ahh yes, that's why I won't drive a shift...any shift, any make any manufacturer in traffic. Did it for 12 years and now car with a manual is for 12:00am Sunday to 5:00am Sunday when there is no one on the road and I can have fun.

chrisboth

That's the only reason I dont have one.. all else is good but for the 1-3 mph drip 50 miles in DC traffic on memorial day friday as the entire city evacuates into northern VA....you think blueguy is crabby..i need speed therapy after that.

speedracer3

need speed therapy after that.

Sorry Chris, my therapy sessions are booked solid through next year

chrisboth

It's ok once you get past richmond on 85 things get much better quickly. There is no less travelled I-highway I know of - especially on a bright weekend morning on the way back home. Just need the v-1 to catch the k band.

blueguydotcom

total stops are frequent and necessary in order to stay close to the car in front of you; 2-5mph slow drift would be asking for being cut off.

Let them cut me off...not as if I care. I still drift.

No wonder you're so crabby on these forums sometimes.

No, no, no. I'm naturally irascible. I come from a long line of pugnacious people - I'm mostly German!

dat2

any thoughts on the altima please. specifically '05 altima 3.5 se with manual trans. 250 hp/249 torque. 25 grand. how is the shifter? original reviews cited unfavorable shifter on the 02 or 03 altima. also, torque steer?? from what i've read it pulls 0-60 in under 6 seconds so we already know it is very fast!

designman

Haven't driven it but I can tell you that I don't think the shifter should be the deal-breaker unless it's extreme. IMO you get used to most insufficiencies in shifters. Aside from that I think the Altima styling is clean, tight, balanced. Altima, G35 coupe and 350Z are the best designs to come out of Nissan IMO. Furthermore, I think they are some of the best styles around period. This car has a real good torque-to-weight ratio. Nice choice if FWD with that power is not an issue. It would rule it out in my book but it's obvious that it doesn't bother everyone.

kdshapiro

With the Altima you may be getting more than you bargained for in terms of time at the shop. Know several people who had them and they just couldn't wait to get rid of them. The 0-60 numbers don't mean anything, if you can't control the car. The previous models drove like a boat. You can expect torque steer and without any traction control aids and torque steer, you can accelerate yourself into a tree like my friend did on a slippery road.

blueguydotcom

Nice looking car, newer models have an updated interior. But that engine has major torque steer. And Nissan trannies are bad - this comes from a long time nissan fan. Best car I ever owned was a 91 Nissan Stanza. That was a solid, nicely built car...far better than my 01 Jetta, 03 BMW or 03 Protege.

jrock65

"With the Altima you may be getting more than you bargained for in terms of time at the shop. Know several people who had them and they just couldn't wait to get rid of them."

And as we all know, your chances of taking a car to the shop depends on how many people kdshapiro knows who've had a problem with that car.

In any case, this is probably the wrong thread to talk about Altimas.

speedracer3

But that engine has major torque steer

Engines don't torque steer, FWD cars do.

And Nissan trannies are bad

Nissan autos are among the best in the business. Better than Honda anyday...not as good as Toyota. Honda has the best manuals, Nissan is not known for the manuals...yet I've heard their close-ratio six speed (in the 350Z) is a very good tranny.

kdshapiro

"In any case, this is probably the wrong thread to talk about Altimas."

So why are you talking about them?

blueguydotcom

Engines don't torque steer, FWD cars do.

I know exactly where the torque steer comes from and actually it is somewhat related to the engine. The tendency of FWD to exhibit torque can be tamed somewhat. What? Unequal...

It's not even worth it.

Nissan autos are among the best in the business.

I totally disagree. Nissan makes junk trannies that are clunky, slow and poorly engineered. not as bad as BMW and Ford trannies but still bad. The manuals on the G35, Altima and Max were just as bad as the one on my old Stanza. Rubbery, vague, truckline buckets of bolts.

Better than Honda anyday...not as good as Toyota. Honda has the best manuals, Nissan is not known for the manuals...yet I've heard their close-ratio six speed (in the 350Z) is a very good tranny.

Wait a second, at one moment you're saying they're better than Honda, then contradicting that by mentioning Honda's trannies are the best. What the blazes? When I mention trannies, I'm only talking about the kind of tranny that matters - manual. automatic? rather be dead.

jrock65

When was I talking about Altimas?

I was refuting your logic, which has been recounted many times in this thread, that your anecdotal evidence can somehow apply as a generalization about a particular car.

dat2

why altima? because what i really want is g35 6 speed, which is an awesome car, but don't really want the payments and the 32grand price tag. altima is fast, sporty and comfortable, but i understand it is not quite in this league. the reason i put it here is because no one in the altima thread has any info.

also, i am considering 6 speed maxima se, it is about 1500 more than altima, considering the markup and 1000 rebate. i can get a 6 spd max with sunroof, plus it has all safety and abs standard which altima doesn't, for about 25 grand right now at the local dealer. how is that shifter?? and torque steer??

thanks all for your thoughts.

dat2

actually, maxse 6 sp w/ roof is about 24.5 negotiated price and alt 5 spd w/ roof is about 22.8 grand.

other alternatives, are mazda 6 hatch, love it except not enough power, and maybe the new subie legacy 2.5 turbo. also, have not driven accord coupe 6 speed but its probably in a similar ballpark.

kdshapiro

corvette "The German Car Makers: Starting to make critical mistakes?" Jul 4, 2004 2:10am

Check out the paragraph, the only difference between my small sample observations, or anectdotal evidence as you say, and this poster, is the lack of "angelic reliability".

speedracer3

I know exactly where the torque steer comes from and actually it is somewhat related to the engine. The tendency of FWD to exhibit torque can be tamed somewhat. What? Unequal...

The Maxima and the G35 have the same engine one car torque steers the other one doesn't. The difference is one is FWD the other RWD. Torque steer also relates to the suspension setup and the layout of the driveshaft.

Wait a second, at one moment you're saying they're better than Honda, then contradicting that by mentioning Honda's trannies are the best

Please read what I wrote. I said Honda AUTOMATICS stink, yet their MANUALS are the best around.

victord1

I've owned '86 Celica GT, '87 Integra, '92 Maxima SE, and now both '03 TL-S and '03 Maxima SE. All of them have autotrannies, and I can say that the auto in the nissan's have much more quicker and smoother up- and down-shifts than those in the acura's. The interactions between the engine and the transimission are more subtle and instinctive in the nissan's.

But then again, I should already be dead for driving auto........at least according to you, Blue. :-)

kahunah

...is that I found the autotranny in my '00 TL was not responsive enough for my driving style. Even though I used seq. shifting often, I still wasn't getting the kind of control I was used to with my previous '92 Accord 4L 5-speed.

blueguydotcom

Automatics on sport sedans...

Nothing like dating halle berry and making her wear a tent and clogs.

victord1

I like driving fast but I'm neither reckless nor a drag racer. I like to start thing gradually and then push it to the limit that I deem reasonable and appropriate (for the circumstance). While I drive like a granny around town, I become a road devil on the highways. For long distance travel, I spend >90% of the time driving in the two left lanes. So for my driving style, a manual would be just a another nuisance.

Oh, and I'll take Halle Berry anytime......even if she doesn't wear anything!!!!!!!!! :-)))

jrock65

I think Infiniti can really increase sales by selling the G with a 3.0L engine (G30), which already exists in Japan, for about $2000 less than a G35. In an age of rising gas prices, this makes even more sense.

The 325i outsells the 330i by almost 5 to 1. What would the 3 series sales be without the 2.5L option? Apparently, the next C will have 2.5, 3.0, 3.5 engine choices as well (thanks merc1 for this info.)

Of course, selling a G30 could hurt Infiniti's "power image."

You might argue that it's not good to have a G30 while "lesser" Nissan sedans such as the Altima and the Maxima have larger 3.5L V6s. Then... have the 3.0L option in the Altima and Maxima as well.

BMW does the same thing. They make the 525i even though the 330i exists. And the 525i sells well--almost as well as the 530i.

Increase brand awareness by catering to a wider market of buyers (by offering a G30). These buyers may also trade up as they get older. Face it, Infiniti has made great progress in the past couple years, but it still has nowhere the brand recognition of BMW, MB, or Lexus. Of course, they should also go more "upscale" by concentrating on the M sedan and coupe, as well as the next Q.

All the press and buzz and comparisons that BMW makes is with the 330i, yet the reality is that the 325i is their bread and butter. The G35/G30 relationship could be the same.

A 230hp G30 w/ Premium Package at an MSRP of $32k ($29k street price) should get a lot of people in the door.

chrisboth

Blueguy I thnk anyone with a G35 tranny will argue that it is one of the best in the biz. The lost power for six speed to 5at is minimal as any car I've ever seen stats on. Take a look at the 3 series drop in times when going auto and then look at 5at. The vaugeness is handled by enthusiastic owners and thier easy remedies. Smooth shifting defined in a tranny built for a much higher power Q45 v-8.

riez

jrock65... You should look at the EPA fuel mileage estimates for the 325i and 330i. You might be surprised. (The 325i really doesn't get you anything in mileage. Some due to gearing; some due to small engine for the weight.)

I do wish Toyota/Lexus had marketed a bare-bones IS200 with 6-speed manual in USA. Toyota sells it in Japan and Europe.

kdshapiro

"Blueguy I thnk anyone with a G35 tranny will argue that it is one of the best in the biz."

That's the problem with "anyone" arguing, it's all personal opinion. The BMW steptronic has been lauded for being one of the best in class.

kdshapiro

It gets you more in mileage round town, not on the highway cruising at 65 foot lightly on the accelerator. I live in an area with total different traffic than you. Lot of heavy stop and for miles and miles. A 325 has better mileage in this type of traffic than a 330.

speedracer3

Having owned a Nissan equipped with the VQ30 and driven many VQ35's, my vote actually goes to the smaller engine. The VQ30 is a lot smoother especially in the higher RPM ranges. In terms of bringing a smaller engine size, wouldn't bother with a G30 (too close to the G35), but a G25 (Skyline 250GT) would actually be an great entry level Infiniti.

chrisboth

KD the steptronic is great at everything but keeping you from owning a dog when you wanted a cat. The auto makes an otherwise very strong motor seem less enthusiastic and frankly slow. The manual is a very nice compliment to the straight six. The auto saps power somehow so while nice and smooth it's less than desirable to many who dont want to sacrifice performance because they live in the northeast.

riez

kdshapiro... I'm talking about both city and highway EPA estimates. The 325i is not fuel efficient. Of course, both a 330i and a 325i will get 0 mpg when stuck in heavy traffic and waiting at stoplights. That is the downside to heavy urban traffic and roadway congestion.

325i uses a numerically higher final drive than the 330i. That impacts RPMs in all gears, lowering fuel economy.

gpwatfrd

BMW can market the 525 to people who want a bigger sedan with no concern for speed. Remember... Many Non-enthusiast will look at BMW for nothing more than status.

If the 525 was reduced in size and the 330 was increased than you would be looking at different sales figures for the 525

blueguydotcom

Blueguy I thnk anyone with a G35 tranny will argue that it is one of the best in the biz. The lost power for six speed to 5at is minimal as any car I've ever seen stats on. Take a look at the 3 series drop in times when going auto and then look at 5at. The vaugeness is handled by enthusiastic owners and thier easy remedies. Smooth shifting defined in a tranny built for a much higher power Q45 v-8.


Chris, take it anyway you want. I love Nissan. They build hearty, durable, long lasting cars with solid fit and finish (same can't be said of BMW) but I'm not real fond of the Nissan propensity for eating brakes or the truck-ish trannies they come with.

blueguydotcom

That's sell quite well. They should mod that nissan 2.5 a bit (maybe a low pressure turbo) to give it over 200 hp and 200 ft-lbs of torque. Price the G at 25k or so without all the fixings. top out at around 32k with moon, navi, etc. It'd sell like hotcakes. It'd be what the G20 never was to infiniti - an entry level car that'll attract droves.

tasdisr

I have been looking at the G35 AWD sedan and was wondering what kind of gas mileage you can expect
from the car.

Sylvia

A newspaper reporter is looking for someone who bought a luxury car with lots of high-end gadgets and ended up either not programming most of it or having lots of problems getting it to work. Please respond to jfallon@edmunds.com by Thursday, July 8, 2004 by 5 p.m. Eastern and be sure to include your daytime phone number and a few words about your vehicle and gadgets.

Thanks!
Jeannine Fallon
PR Director
Edmunds.com

kdshapiro

"They build hearty, durable, long lasting cars with solid fit and finish (same can't be said of BMW)"

If you insert the words: "kind of", after the word they, I'll agree with that statement.

fedlawman

The reason the 325i sells so well compared to the 330i is because the difference in performance is less dramatic than one might expect, and the 325i is almost $5000 cheaper.

That and the fact that many 325i buyers don't care about speed or performance, just the spinning propeller on the hood.

jrock65

I think it's mainly the price.

Performance-wise, I think there is a huge difference. The 325i might actually be more nimble than the 330i, but the power difference feels significant, especially with the auto transmission.

In a straight line, the 325i feels like a 4-cylinder Accord. The 330i can almost keep up with the G35's and TL's out there.

But apparently, most 3 series buyers would rather be in a relatively sluggish $35k vehicle, keep the $5k, and have the propeller on the hood.

blueguydotcom

The engine performance difference between the 3.0 and 2.5 is pretty extreme, IMHO. I flat out would not purchase a 325i...there wasn't a noticeable jump in power from my 1.8T. an extra 10k for RWD? No thanks. I'd rather have the cheaper but just as quick feeling TSX over the 325i - more entertaining engine, better tranny, more features and bulletproof. For 30k the 325 should have more going for it than handling.

saugatak

For 30k the 325 should have more going for it than handling.

It does . . . propeller on the hood.

kdshapiro

Ah, but the propeller on the hood signifies a common theme in BMWs lineup of vehicles. Quality performance oriented drivers automobiles. It's irrelevant whether you want to acknowledge that or not, people understand this about BMWs.

I laugh everytime some says the propellor on the hood, because it ignores the obvious. That people want what they want and it seems those comments are all about jealousy. It's not my place to comment because someone buys an $3,000 Armani suit for the name or a propeller on the hood for the emblem. Obviously the name Armani and the propeller on the hood means something to the buyer.

pg48477

I'm sorry but 325 is not performance oriented vehicle. Just bacouse BMW makes M5 and M3 it does not mean that 325 and 525(both account for more than 50% of Sedan sales) are performance oriented. Acura makes NSX( which is arguably better performance car than M5 and it's 15 years old) but it does not make TL or TSX more performance oriented.

jrock65

Nothing really to be jealous about. A $35,000 3 series Bimmer? Please...

I do agree with you that there is nothing wrong with buying a car just for its name. People buy things for different reasons.

That still doesn't change the observations of many on this board that many 3 series buyers' principal reason for getting one is for the badge. Again, there is nothing wrong with this.

Almost by default, the regular posters who own a 3 is not in the above category.

Anyways, it seems that the next generation 330i will have 258hp/221 torque 3.0L. Not sure what the 325i will have, but it'll probably have at least 210hp. That should make its performance a bit more lively.

saugatak

It's irrelevant whether you want to acknowledge that or not, people understand this about BMWs.

I don't think all the housewives driving 325s in Northern NJ understand this about BMWs. I do think they understand the meaning of the propeller on the hood.

pajack

Take a look of the Acura TL A-spec concept. 300HP and new exterior style.
Love it...

http://www.autoweek.nl/newsdisp.php?cache=no&ID=2101

http://www.vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=187028

chrisboth

Heres another example of wasting 6 grand