Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

jmess

The coupe is a pretty noisy car though. For a stock sport/lux 75dBA at 70 MPH is pretty boy racer by today's standards. Cars like the IS300, 3 series, and CTS are under 70 dBA at the same speed.

chrisboth

Not sure about you but last time I heard the VQ roar in the coupe it made me want to drive hard and fast...why else did I pay 35k for a car! That sound is awesome. You want quiet get an avalon. These sounds are meant to be heard. Theres a reason the IS is muffled - it's sounds like &^$*&

speedracer3

The G35 coupe should be noisy because it is a sports (a wolf in sheep's clothing). Call it what you will, but the G35 mechanically, is a 350Z with better styling.

designman

I agree with both of you. Engines are sweet music... no engine, no sport. I like the 350Z styling with reservations on the rear lights. Altima also has buttoned-up styling and I believe it was the first to show the asymmetrical slanted crease running below the beltline that many have hitchhiked onto and most have botched. The rest of the Nissan/Infiniti lineup needs serious help with styling. At least they have three, BMW has 1/2.

blueguydotcom

Love the styling of the G35 coupe, but didn't like the cramped interior, poor visibility, lack of a trunk, cheap interior materials, balky shifter and numb steering. I felt like I was sitting in a cheap, dark, small hole when driving the coupe.

I like the sedan way more. A far better, though far less sexy looking car, IMHO.

Now a drop top G35 coupe - that would at least remove the closed-in, tight, dank hole feeling. And supposedly Infiniti is making the interior decent on the next batch of Gs.

Why are they not doing that yet? come on, BMW is the only luxury coupe maker with an entry level convertible. No, the A4 is not a consideration, that porky pig VW-mobile.

chrisboth

Love the sedan but find the coupe to be a sexy beaa^!$. I may never own a coupe at my height. 911 is never gonna happen until I shrink. My crx had moe legroom than my G tho - no back seat. You were sitting on a beach chair in that car with my 38 inch legs upto my cheeks. sorry off topic

designman

3-series convertibles. Cool. Always were. Pray that they have come to their senses.

sweetc230

Wow, I have never read a review like that about a coupe. Cramped interior??? it's a coupe, what did you expect?? And for a coupe, it has a VERY spacious interior. What coupe, in your opinion, has a spacious interior? Lack of a trunk?? Again, its a coupe, and I can get my golf bag and two suitcases in there. And if that's not enough, I could drop the backseat (although I haven't had to do that yet). Cheap interior. . .well, that seems to be a universal thought, but I happen to like the interior. And I love the nav system and it's location. But you are right, some of the interior materials could be scratched very easily. . .I tread lightly in mine with any sharp objects. Balky shifter? well, maybe a notchy shift action, but ok. And lastly, numb steering. . . .NUMB STEERING!!??? This is my biggest beef. . .no way, the steering is excellent, almost perfectly weighted and neutral. To draw a comparison, I would compare it closely with the 3 series steering of old. Not the new "active steering" that they have now. My father in law has a '99 328 and I have always loved the handling/steering feel is his car and the G's steering feels the same.

But, hey at least we agree that the styling is second to none!!:)

And BTW, according to my Infiniti dealer, the G35 convertible should hit the showrooms by '06.

blueguydotcom

What coupe, in your opinion, has a spacious interior?

3 series coupe is spacious. I wouldn't own one but it's pretty darn roomy.

Not enough space in the trunk. The rear suspension is so high that the trunk is essentially unusable.

Balky shifter? well, maybe a notchy shift action, but ok.

Not too much of a knock. I think BMW has worse trannies and I still bought a 330i. I at least trust the nissan tranny will last.

And lastly, numb steering. . . .NUMB STEERING!!??? This is my biggest beef. . .no way, the steering is excellent, almost perfectly weighted and neutral. To draw a comparison, I would compare it closely with the 3 series steering of old.

Sorry, the steering reminded me of the IS300 - dead, no feedback and very slow to respond to inputs. To each his own.

But, hey at least we agree that the styling is second to none!!:)

Gorgeous styling. I'd like a character line in the middle of the door but other than that...wow.

And BTW, according to my Infiniti dealer, the G35 convertible should hit the showrooms by '06.

Oh yummy, one more choice when the bimmer goes back to the dealer. A g35 convertible could be the hottest thing on the road in a long time. Of course if there's an BMW M2 coming and MazdaSpeed3 hatchback out i'll have so many fun choices.

Looking forward to 2006!

chrisboth

"3 series coupe is spacious."

ha thats cuz it's not really a sports coupe now is it - it's a sedan door with 2 doors missing. Infiniti got it right when they made the two very distinct yet they are really the same inside..just like all of us...(ok no more beer at lunch)

AS far as steering goes there is only one question: were you on pain killers or driving a bogus wrecked demo?

blueguydotcom

I find the steering to be "off" on all G's to be honest but it was worse in the coupe. Very dead center feel to it, no feedback and slow to react. not a criticism, just how it felt to me. I found the steering of the 3 and the TSX far more engaging. Heck, recently the steering setup on my protege feels more responsive and better than that of even my 3 series ZHP (but that's more related to those wretched, slick, pathetic Potenza S-03s).

Also the substantial weight of the cars plays a role. The most engaging car on the road that I've driven is still without a doubt the Miata. Point and shoot. Flick it left, right, sideways - you move that wheel and the car reacts without pause or shifting of weight or lumbering along (like the G35 and 330i do).

jmess

Were not talking about acceleration or WOT noise, were talking about a steady 70 MPH cruise. Say what you want but 75 dBA is loud and tiring after many hours in the car. Any continuous sound over 64-66 dBA causes hearing loss over time. If you are smart you will wear ear plugs on longer trips.

fedlawman

If it looks anything like the 350Z, I'd pass. I hate all these convertable "sports cars" that have a cowl line even with your ear lobes and the top of the windshield covering half your head.

And then, every time I see someone driving one with the top-down, they have all the windows rolled up.

Why bother?

I think a convertable should actually be OPEN, like a Miata or Alfa Romeo Spider.

dhanley

I noticed that in my buddy's g35--he has the sport package, and the road noise was really amazingly loud. I love WOT engine noise, but i often take 4+ hour highway drives and i know how tiresome the droning can be--my old car did it, and 5 hours was draining. Of course, if you're having fun, it's not a problem.

merc1

"Altima also has buttoned-up styling and I believe it was the first to show the asymmetrical slanted crease running below the beltline that many have hitchhiked onto and most have botched."

Bingo!

I made this same point about everyone adopting this crease a little while back. Mercedes' 2005 SLK, Toyota's Sienna, Honda's Accord, Cadillac's new STS, and CTS all have it, and upcoming Mercedes and VWs will have it too, and just like you stated with varying degress of success.

I personally don't care for this styling element on Mercedes where is pure fluffery, but it does work on some of the Japanese cars probably because they had nowhere but up to go in terms of styling. It works on the Altima.

M

chrisboth

This must be a Coupe thing as the wheel wells are in the interior rear deck area. My sedan is a joy at 100 - even quiet music is audible and conversations are quiet at that speed.

dhanley

Do you have the sport package?

That's the one thing i really remmeber from driving the CTS with the 3.6L. *REALLY* quiet. Too much so in fact, for me. Also slightly uncommunicative, but the one i drove didn't have the sport package. That might cancel out my two main objections.

chrisboth

yes - wind noise is pretty great and so is cruising engine speed. It's loud when you put your foot in it and thats it. PS I have the 350-z intake tube so I have a louder sound than most sedans do. The coupe has diff exhasust and that may be more dramatic than an intake from the passenger and driver perspective.

m4d_cow

there are only 3 things that really turn me off from getting a g35 ever:
material quality is crappy
seats are really hard and uncomfy, particularly on longer trips
ride is harsh for a sedan at this level
btw im talking about the sedan, never tried the coupe but i like it more that its brother 350Z

dhanley: how does the CTS handle, compared to others like BMW and G35?

dhanley

I had a hard time gauging how it handled. It "felt" very like a german car. It felt a lot like a c-class, a bit better steering, but more isolated. But the c-class i drove that day had a sport package and the CTS didn't.

Who knows, those GM card points may yet come in handy.

daver

chrisboth

The sports sedan with the hard ride - DUH - try out the avaolon or the stratus then...

dhanley

What are you responding to?

One of the nice features of some cars is good handling plus not being bone shakers. Typically you pay extra for that.

blueguydotcom

While I didn't find the G35 sedan with sports to be rough, many people complain about it. People also return 330i's with the performance package as they say the ride is too rough. People are weird...

chrisboth

there is an inverse relationship between handling and ride..this is an axiom of sports sedan performance. Oddly enough the sports package with the harder firmer ride is better to live with than the non sports which rolls and bobs. The G35 has a more planted feel than any car with 4 doors that I have driven - that's what makes the car feel luxurious to me. IF you want cush - this car is not for you...it's going to tranfer some road and uneven pavement vibration to the passenger. The enthusiast prefers it this way. Hell BMW invented it! Many people dont like the 540 sport package ride either. They have town cars for them folks...

designman

"Many people dont like the 540 sport package ride either. They have town cars for them folks..."

Chris, it's a matter of degree. BMW has the spectrum covered from non-sport automatic setups up to the Ms. Most people appreciate the basic tight BMW sedan ride without wanting blue-plate performance. It's a midway point between the luxury ride and the sport ride.

Blueguy… You think the Miata is cool? Now you're talkin' real sport driving. Ever drive an S2000?

billyperks

which Avalon are you talking about-couldn't be Toyota's, because I have rented that car on numerous occassions and it drives like a LS 400.

There is absolutely no HARSHNESS to that car.

m4d_cow

330i w/ std sport suspension is nice, perf package would be a nice stuff to have, but not for me as i drive long distance quite often.
g35s overly firm seats arent doing any good for me, cant say much about the mediocre comfort on long trips as i drove long distance w/ this car only twice.
honestly its actually funny as im not that old yet but i find german cars comfortable seats more relaxing and its becoming a must for me...somehow...
maybe daily stress from work is catching up on me

fjm1

I’ve owned both a 3’er sedan with sport suspension and now own a G sedan with sport suspension. I try to autocross at least once per year, finnally getting the G on the track. When I was in Germany the BMW went to Hockenheim and Nurburgring. I will say right now that the BMW has a better balance of firmness and compliance in everyday driving. But these are my on track observations.

The BMW will hit precisely on the marks lap after lap. The BMW understeers. Slow speed corners can be a challenge because the chassis must be “flicked” into the corner. By this I mean as you come into a slow (sub 30 mph) tight corner the balance of the BMW must be purposely upset to allow for better rotation of the nose. Normally this can be done with the throttle on most rear drivers but the BMW tucks it’s tail and digs during WOT corner exit. The suspension in the BMW is better at soaking up track irregularities. Mid corner bumps don’t usually cause you to run wide or have to lift for fear of rotation. BMW sport suspension handles multiple corners like S-curves very well. Threshold braking is linear with zero fade. The BMW is surgical, precise, capable and unflappable.

Having said all that about the BMW the G is ultimately more capable mostly because of more power. It takes a better driver than me to wring out everything the G has to offer. The G takes a few more course corrections. The G is easier to modulate with the throttle. The G can be coaxed to drift easier and superior torque can make for terrifying exit speeds. I can run out of track and talent with the G’s go pedal. Tight corners can be dispatched easily with a touch of throttle-on oversteer. Track irregularities can upset the G’s chassis during threshold braking and the rear can definitely step out on fast sweepers. The G does not transition very well during multi-corner maneuvers. There is more bobbing as the dampers fight to control pitch and roll. Once the G is set though it’s time to dial in the throttle and ROCKET. The G is powerful, visceral, involved, and ultimately more rewarding to drive fast.

On a road course I believe a novice driver could drive a BMW and post better times than in a G. A skilled driver in a G would post better times than in a BMW. For me, it would probably be a wash depending on the length of the straightaway. Ultimately, I enjoy both cars greatly and am fortunate to have owned both and gotten to test each cars limits within a safe, controlled environment.

blueguydotcom

Blueguy… You think the Miata is cool? Now you're talkin' real sport driving. Ever drive an S2000?

I love the feel of Miatas. Like a go-kart! My family has owned at least one since 1991 so i'm pretty darn familiar with how them. Even the original with the tiny 113 hp engine was a blast.

No, I haven't driven an S2000 yet. I will do so in April-March of 2006 when I begin the quest for the Bimmer's replacement.

Someone mentioned driving long distances and the perf package as rough...actually on long freeway drives it's pretty much like a normal 330i. It's on surface streets that it feels more jittery.

speedracer3

Want a go-cart?....behold the Lotus Elise

chrisboth

Have you considered Hotchkis Sway bars for the G? 250 shipped and as a trakkie you may enjoy them as much as i hear others are. I may get them even tho I don't track her on road courses. People say the rigididty over bumps is improved and the sway is nill - they are adjustable so you could also tweak the balance to oversteer from under which is stock even if the tail fliks easily.

You do give up some independence of the suspension but - what's a slightly harsher ride going to mean at this point anyway...apparently it's already like driving a non-sprung shoppping cart!

blueguydotcom

That's a killer car. Too bad it's 40k+. That's a little steep for a car that's not even all-weather capable. not that it rains here...

jazevedo

Well I finally test drove the 330i with performance package today in 6-speed. I had driven the G35 a few months ago, but it was an automatic so I can't compare exactly. My initial reaction was that it wasn't as fast as I'd hoped. I'm used to a V8 mustang and while the BMW is quicker to 60 and 1/4 mile, I think it has more to do with the higher revving engine and more consistent engine output, whereas the V8 screams at 3500 RPM's but gives up in the higher rmps.

Anybody else think the G35's higher torque numbers make the car "feel" quicker? I'm wondering if I'll get bored with the bmw after a year....I must admit I wasn't used to the clutch so my shifts weren't completely smooth...maybe once I get used to the car it will feel faster? I'm not saying it felt slow, it just didn't make my hair stand up!

The handling definitely was great and I like the interior much better than the G35. And I love the looks even though BMW's are everywhere. Just curious what others think of the acceleration feel in these cars.

Thanks!

blueguydotcom

I must admit I wasn't used to the clutch so my shifts weren't completely smooth...maybe once I get used to the car it will feel faster? I'm not saying it felt slow, it just didn't make my hair stand up!

It never will really feel faster. some BMW lovers will claim the engine loosens up and gets freer-revving after xxxxx miles. Yeah, whatever.

The handling definitely was great and I like the interior much better than the G35. And I love the looks even though BMW's are everywhere. Just curious what others think of the acceleration feel in these cars.

I still love driving mine but it's doesn't feel fast to me any longer. Familiarity breeds contempt. The ubiquity of the car grows tiresome too.

rsr152

Hi,
I will be moving to Portland, OR and purchasing a new car in about 1.5-2 months. I had a few questions and would appreciate any pointers or suggestions. Currently I am a resident of Pennsylvania (Philadelphia).

My choice is between the TL & G35 leather w/ premium pkg.(An '04 I35 w/ Nav. and cold weather pkg. for < $28k would be a third choice).

Questions:

(i) What are typical "additional" fees dealers charge in Oregon, or to Oregon residents (buying in WA, or CA, for instance)?

(ii) There is no sales tax on cars, right, for OR residents?

(iii) What is a good time to buy a new car- August, September, October (due to '05 models and inventory reduction etc.)?

(iv) Would it be unreasonable to expect to get an '04 non- navi. TL or '04 G35 leather w/ prem. pkg. for $32k, all inclusive?

(v) How well does the argument of an '04 car being "a year old" (and so it should be offered for lesser) usually work in Aug/ Sept/ Oct, if the dealer has some '04 models on-site?

Thanks again.

pat

Hi rsr152 - welcome!

I see you're asking these questions in a few places, but you might have missed the best place for most of them. Check out our Smart Shopper board. That's the main place where the most of the issues you raise are best addressed.

Meanwhile, the G35 vs. TL discussion you found is a great place to learn what folks thinks about how the features of each compare.

Do take a look at the discussions on the SS board - I'm sure you can find answers to most of these questions that you've posted here and in the other two discussions.

Good luck - feel free to drop me an email if I can help you find anything else.

m4d_cow

i cant say anything about ur first question, but i can share some infos i have on the others.

yes, its true theres NO sales tax for OR residents. and depending on the area, '05 models usually hit the dealerships around early Sept here (im in WA)
im not sure about the G35's price but as far as i know getting a TL for $32k is reasonable, while imo you can actually go a little lower once the '05s are on the lot. i almost bought a TL myself, heck it was hard to negotiate back then since there were only a few units in the inventory and lots of buyers.
no i dont think you can really consider a new '04 as a 1 yr old used, but you can get some nice deals out of it, id say you can get bout $1000-2000 off the price.
note that some dealers just want to get the "older" cars off the inventory, thats where you can get some nice deals

m4d_cow

has anyone wondered which brand is going to he right direction in their products design, sales, etc...?
lately i found cadillac's bold and daring design growing on me, too bad the interior is still a mess in the CTS, and performance...well, its getting better
otoh bmws starting to turn me off with their lame i-drive and minimalist controls. active steering also a chore to drive with.
audi is getting nice, a little minus with their bassmouth grille, i say go easy with the chrome lid on the grille and it will look a whole lot better.

m4d_cow

does anyone here know if the zephyr is gonna be produced or not? cos im pretty sure i spotted one down the road few days ago. i didnt realize what it was until i browsed through edmunds
hell i thought its just a concept car ??? and isnt it supposed to be ford's concept?

dave2222

The Zephyr is being produced. I asked the same question to a few friends at Ford, it seems they're doing calibration testing currently to make sure that it can pass govt fuel emission standards. I believe theyre adding in a 35 Duratec once the development is done. It should be ready by mid 2005.Ford is getting the Ford Fusion which is based off the Mazda 6 but trust me it doesnt look like the 6 at all. Go look on yahoo for "ford futura concept pictures" and thats what itll look like. Ive seen the fusion in real life and its a head turner. As for Mercury they're getting the Mercury Milan which is a redone Fusion/Futura they're redoing the body for a more premium look. In other words the Milan is actually going to be a unique car to Mercury. Glad to help you out.

fedlawman

http://www.world-challenge.com/news/04press115.html

Weazell

I posted this elsewhere but I want to get some additional feedback . . .

I looked today at a 2002 MB C320 Sedan. It looks like I could get it for around $25K which seems to be a dang good price, based on what I got from NADA. (Based on the VIN, they had it booked at $29,625 - Retail - and $25,775 - Trade-In.) Before I do anything nuts, I thought I'd ask a few questions . . .

1. The car has 27,000 miles on it, so it still has a ways to go on the warranty. Anyone have any experience with MB dealerships on how willing they are are to honor warranty issues from second or third owners of the vehicle?

2. There seem to be lots of questions about quality on this board. I know it's annoying when a quality vehicle gives you grief but it also sounds like the vehicles under warranty are getting problems fixed without too much trouble. Am I right or am I missing something?

3. I gotta know more about the cell phone thing. My guess is that it will only work with a specific MB approved, cell phone provider, right? There's no way to get my US Cellular number to work with this thing is there?

4. Any other advice from those of you who have bought a used MB C-Class vehicle?

Thanks for your help!

Peter

cdnpinhead

I'll be interested in hearing the answers to your questions.

Rumour has it that MB will be bringing the E320 over with the turbodiesel, and having driven a number of recent rental diesel vehicles in Europe, I'm intrigued.

dhanley

"Rumour has it that MB will be bringing the E320 over with the turbodiesel,"

It's not a rumour; i think they're already selling them in fact.

m4d_cow

"Rumour has it that MB will be bringing the E320 over with the turbodiesel,"

i dont think its a rumor, edmunds got one tested already if im not mistaken.

peter: i cant tell you much regarding the warranty issues on 2nd owners, but my parents always have at least one merc in their garage, and everytime it has problems they get fixed w/ barely any questions. just a reminder, mercedes are just like other german cars, expect some minor problems including electrical issues.

bmbmw

Greetings all... I have been following this board for over a year and have found the discussions both interesting and insightful. This fall I intend to purchase either a new ('05) 240 (elegance) or BMW 325i. I have only owned and driven Corolla's in the past, on average keeping them 12 years...they have only ever been great cars. In terms of reliability, they are my standard. But I'm ready to try something more upscale now and after a fair amount of research it has come down to the 2 fine cars mentioned above. I intend to keep my next car for 10 years, I will only put low(city) mileage on it, will get the extended warranty and expect to pay it off within 1 year.

 My first choice (or the choice of my heart) would be the 240, but I am concerned about the recent Consumer Reports ratings of the car. I know that the 01 and 02 years are of greater concern on this. How has the reliability been for those who bought '03 and '04 model years?

 I guess my close 2nd choice (or the choice of my head) would be the BMW... its a little more sports sedan (I'm more of a touring sedan type myself)and it has very high ratings from most automotive sources... at any rate I would appreciate your thoughts, thank you...

B

m4d_cow

most auto magazines make their reviews based on handling and performance, or at least more into the performance factor.
i've heard of quite a number of people complaining about the pre-'04 C-class' seats, being uncomfy on longer trips. but i heard they fixed it since the '04 model.
reliability isnt far from bmw's, which in this case, if you drive only [non-permissible content removed] cars so far, is gonna be a pain in the butt if you wanna keep it for 10 years.
but even if youre more into touring the bmw is still a fine choice just a bit less comfy than the mercedes in the ride department
in any case id say take a test drive before you decide

dhanley

I tend to think reliability is overblown--yes, a corolla may be more reliable than either of these two cars--but it also might not be. The reality of it is that the vast majority of cars out there, and probably all the ones in this topic, are within a statistical deviation of each other, so just buy what you like and gets you the most bang for your buck.

There's cars out there that are cool enough that i almost wish my 3-er would give me an excuse to trade it.

I really like the c-class overall; if the c230 had just a little bit more oomph...

dave

billyperks

Get the C32 AMG-my friend has one and it has some oomph to it.

kyfdx

From anecdotal evidence I would say the BMW will be cheaper to maintain than the Mercedes. If you keep it for ten years, resale isn't that important, but if you do happen to get rid of it earlier, the 3-series will hold its value better than the C-class.

Something that might sway you.. BMW will soon be offering manufacturer extended warranties that bump the coverage to 6yr/100K miles and you can also extend the "free" maintenance coverage to match that time period. The extended warranty is $2249 and the extended maintenance plan is $995.

Except for future price increases, you can buy that coverage for the same price at any time before your original warranty and maintenance plan run out.

I wouldn't discount the BMW, just because you are a "touring" type of person.. Just stay away from the sport package. One of the 3-series strengths is how well it combines handling with a good ride.

regards,
kyfdx