Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans

oneandonly1

I purchased a 2002 C320 in December 2003, and also got a great deal. Paid about $28k, and this one was fully loaded with the CD changer, phone cradle, heated seats, etc. Best things was it only had 10k miles on it, couldn't believe it.

1. Service with Mercedes Benz has been great. The car is still under warranty, and coverage has never been an issue even though I am not the original owner. I have 20k miles on it now, and still have till 2006 or 34k more miles to go to the warranty. And regular maintenance/oil changes/tire rotation are all free!!

2. I have taken the car in for a a few things and they have gone above and beyond: the cupolder has chrome button marked "push" that was chipping, so they replaced it; instrument had a smudle so they replaced it; spare tire cover plastic handle was broke so they replaced it. Only problem I have had is there was a whining noise when I would make a turn, and turns out it was the power steering. They replaced the power steering pump. Best thing is they also give you a free rental car while your car is being serviced.

3. I have the phone cradle for a Motorola V60. I was thrilled when I got the car because I already had a V60. But then I found out that it has to be a Mercedes Benz V60. You know, its a contract between MB and Motorola so they have to get you somehow. I found the phone on ebay for about $200 and its been worth every penny. I have service through Verizon, and live in CA. Love being able to answer the phone handsfree through the radio speakers, and dial through the number pad on the radio.

4. Bottom line, I love the car. Had it for 7 months now and don't regret buying it. What I can recommend is that while its under warranty, take advantage of fixing any problem no matter how small. I've always driven Hondas or Nissans, but this car is a lot of luxury in a compact affordable package.

Weazell

Thanks for all the great feedback! I just keep getting more and more excited about the prospect of owning this car. I hope to nail things down this weekend.

I've already had a great experience with MB customer service. I called our local dealership to ask a couple of questions - including whether or not they might be able to provide me with information about the service record. Not only were they willing to do that (even though I wouldn't be buying the car from them) but they faxed it over to me! Although there have been about a dozen things done to the car over the last year, all were done under warranty and all but one were more cosmetic than anything else. The one thing that looked kinda major was something labeled "Rubber Mount, Torsion Bar." I'm going to give them a call to find out a bit more but I suspect it won't keep me from moving ahead with the purchase. (Assuming I can bring the price down just a bit more.)

Thanks again!

jmess

The more systems a things has the more potential for problems/issues. So Benz, BMW, and etc tend to have a lot of features and gadgets that could have issues over time. Some makers like Lexus seem to be able to get more things right the first time but is far from perfect.

My uncle had to special order his corolla to get one without electric windows. He figured he would have the car for a long time and it was one less thing that could break.

chalkpie

Was really interested in a TL (did the test drive, etc) until by chance I visited the local Saab dealer. They were offering a leftover 2003 9-5 Aero with every option imaginable for $32+. Color is metallic green with gray interior. Had 100 miles on it, with plastic still on the seats, etc.

To make a long story short, and after a LOT of haggling, I ended up buying this car for $27,500 + tax. I test drove this car the same day as the TL, and I honestly loved both cars equally. Apples and oranges. I couldn't justify spending the extra $2,500 (minimum) to get the TL. In other words, the TL didn't blow me away to the point where I was saying "This is the car I MUST own..." I am on a tight budget, so this figure was ideally the amount that I wanted to spend on a car. Yes it is an '03, not an '04, but at that price I couldn't turn it down.

Will pick up the car this Monday (August 6) and I hope this will be the beginning of a new long and fruitful relationship with Saab.

I know I would have loved the TL as well, but for this time around I am going Swedish, not Japanese. I am trading in my '98 Eclipse GS-T with 136k miles. I will miss my little Eclipse.

riez

jmess... You wrote, "Some makers like Lexus seem to be able to get more things right the first time but is far from perfect."

Wife and I have now put on about 30,000 miles in our IS300s. Not a single problem. Nothing. Nada. Zip. [In the first 40,000 miles my wife's former 323ia had various issues like with sunroof, seats, and CD player.]

Hoping they are like our former 1996 G20ts. Over 80,000 miles and never a single problem.

fedlawman

My wife and I just got back back this enjoyable event.

I drove a Lexus GS430, M-B S430, Infiniti G35, Lexus IS300, BMW 330i, Lexus LS430, Acura TL, Lexus ES330.

Impressions?

GS430 - good power and good handling, nice but outdated interior layout/design (CD changer in glovebox, poorly designed center console/storage, etc.). This car needs to be re-styled, inside and out.

S430 - nice power and surprisingly good handling for such a large car(this car really attacked the corners!). Interior was high class, but somewhat cold/uninviting with some quirky ergonomics.

G35 - best drive of the bunch! Brakes very grabby (took some finesse), but wonderful power, exhaust note, and cornering. Interior layout/quality is this cars Achilles heel (it was a 2004).

IS300 - not as hard edged as I remember. Light and nimble handling, decent power, yet at a disadvantage vs. competition. Interior looked and felt cramped, uninviting, and low-rent (well, my wife liked the speedometer).

330i - More powerful than IS300, but softer around the edges handling and drivetrain wise (slightly more "mush" in the steering, suspension, and throttle response. Interior a step or two up from IS300 and G35, but still looked and felt dated and a little cheap.

LS430 - The car I'd choose if I had to commute in traffic or took a lot of trips. Plush, warm and inviting interior (suede headliner, big comfy seats, everything soft-touch). Nice straight-line power, but a pig in the twisties.

TL - The car I'd choose if I had to commute in traffic or took a lot of trips, but only had $30K to spend. Basically felt like a lower-rent LS430...nice power and plush modern interior, but soft driving dynamics.

ES330 - My wife drove this one. She liked it, I didn't. A Camry dressed in Lexus clothing.

Conclusions? If someone could build a $30K ish car that drives/sounds like the G35, and has the interior of the TL, they'd get my money.

P.S. The longest line was for the Cadillac XLR. It's kinda ugly, but it goes like heck, sounds awesome, and corners on rails!

kdshapiro

Nice writeup. If I could be driving an LS430, I would be driving a 745. If my budget was an absolute $30K, it would be a loaded Honda. I would rather drive a loaded Honda than a stripper 325. If I had 40K, the 3 series performance package.

ponytrekker

You should seriously consider Lexus if long-term reliability is a concern.

jrock65

Official photos of the next 3 have been released. Less controversial looking than the 5 or the 7, and has a little more pizzaz than the current 3. Not what evokes "wow, beautiful" or "handsome", but not bad either.

But I'm not a big fan of the new interior. Seems pretty bland. There seems to be both a idrive version and a non-idrive version, at least for euro models.

Of course, I'll have to reserve final judgment until I actually see the car and sit in it.

kdshapiro

"Not what evokes "wow, beautiful" or "handsome", but not bad either."

It's a much more modern, handsome/athletic design than the now date 6 year old 3 series. I think they'll be gorgeous in person.

blueguydotcom

Because the color of the car in the pics makes it look downright bland.

lexusjunkie

Jrock,

do you have any links to the pictures of the new 3-series?

kdshapiro

Look on the 2006 BMW 3 series board for links to pics.

exalteddragon1

Did you have a chance to drive a Cadillac CTS, or the new STS?

I think the CTS with the new 3.6 is a better choice than the G35 if they were equal in price, but a similarly equipped (to the teeth) G35 is like 5K less than the CTS, which runs into the 40's.

It would be intersting to see how the STS does against the 430, aswell...

m4d_cow

did you check the rear end? looking like a cheap nissan or honda's rear end design...:(

fedlawman

The XLR was the only Cadillac there. I would have liked to have seen/driven the new STS.

As for the CTS, they could put a fusion power unit in it, and it would still be ugly to me.

kasperghost

I have been lurking in vain for the answer to my questions. I would appreciate some feedback if possible. I live in Colorado and need to know if there are any other Coloradans or people that have driven I-70 over Eisenhower tunnel in a 325i loaded with people (10,000 ft up). I used to have a Honda Prelude w/ a power to weight ratio of 1hp to 19.3 lbs. and the 325i has a 16.3 power to weight. I would be luggin' extra weight due to 4 people. The Honda did just fine if you dipped into the power band a little bit. The Honda was geared a little on the high side like the 325i (relative to their respective competitors). I'd like to buy new and the 325i is the most I can afford. (Mention a new 330 and just break out the drool cup...:) I'm looking at this being a 100k car; that's why I am not looking at a used 330i.

Somehow, I'd feel cheated if I spent all that money and couldn't get up the hill.

kyfdx

but, the BMW has plenty of torque and horsepower for any high-speed driving you need to do.. If your Prelude could handle it, you have nothing to worry about with 325i.

regards,
kyfdx

jmess

Check out the 05 Subi Legacy GT. You get AWD for the CO winters and a turbo to give you the high altitude performance you are looking for.

kasperghost

I agree that the Subaru would have the power especially with the turbo giving such outstanding high altitude performance- I read the first drive on the front page of Edmunds and wasn't impressed with the engine review. I drove the 325 the other day and be still my beating, no pounding heart. It drives like people say it does. I'm not too worried about the winters. We get the most sunshine out of any magor city in the US. All things being equal, I want the BMW. My only other contender is the TL, but 270 out of a fwd?

Thanks for any input

kdshapiro

kasperghost you could wait until the 333 hp twin turbo 3 series comes out. I'm sure jmess would agree it would have enough power.

Seriously though CR likes the new TL. For 33 grand you get a lot of car. However, if you want that feeling of connectedness to the road and be able to predict the cars' very next move, the Bimmer is for you.

A friend has the has the new TL, you know what he raves about, the bluetooth phone and the DVD-a. I didn't hear one word about the cars handling. To me that's the difference between people who buy Bimmers and people who don't. You will never confuse a Bimmer to an Acura on toys, and you will never confuse an Acura to a Bimmer on handling/precision/road feel.

kasperghost

I am a Honda man, but am looking for more excitement. I understand that the BMW will cost more to own and I can deal. Since I have given up motorcycles, I need to feel the need somehow.

Somehow I think I could deal with a 333hp turbo that BMW produced. Forget drool cup- Drool bucket.

I am just a little concerned that the 184 hp w/ 4 people won't cut it at 10,000 ft. Cars lose approx. 1 sec. of 0-60 time per mile of altitude. I am sure having fun agonizing though:) I saw two 3-series on a truck the other day and almost caused a wreck:(

dhanley

Well, I used to drive my 328i in the mountains in colorado/new mexico quite often, and i never felt low on power. The new 325i has almost the same horsepower, but less torque, though. My turbo saab had more mountain horsepower, same as sea level due to the turbo, but the lag was awful in the mountains.

If you don't mind using 3rd or 4th at times to climb hills, you'll be fine.

dave

jrock65

If you like a car to the point of drooling over it, you should definitely get it.

I don't live in Colorado, so obviously I don't know about the hill you're talking about, but I doubt the 325i will have too much trouble getting over it. No doubt, there are many less-powerful 4 cylinder vehicles that make it up and down that hill just fine.

Obviously, the 325i will have to work harder than a 330i, G35, or TL, but it can't be that bad.

igiban

"ES330 - My wife drove this one. She liked it, I didn't. A Camry dressed in Lexus clothing."

Does your wife agree with you on that and still like it? We used to drive both and I'd have to say ES is a lot more comfy and plush than Camry.

For 30K I'd like something between ES and TL, although I can see why you'd like one between G35 and TL.

gordonwd

>Since I have given up motorcycles,
>I need to feel the need somehow.

I also recently gave up my two-wheeled BMW for a four-wheeled one (325i) and so far have not missed the mo'cycle all that much. There's still many things about the m/c experience that no car can replace, but overall I am enjoying the "cage" experience now (cleaner, dryer, safer!).

  Doug G

chalkpie

I own a '03 9-5 Aero and would probably go for the Hirsch kit were it available in the US. Too bad.

As is, the 9-5 is probably the best kept secret within this category. You have to own one to truly understand. I drove all of 'em and the Saab does it all. The deals are also outrageous through the end of August.

fedlawman

Re: my wife. Yes, she basically agreed, though she has less time invested (and interest) in closely examining the finer details of a car. She warms to a car that is handsome, comfortable, and easy to drive.

This ES was a special edition and had a dark grey coloured trim in place of the usual wood. I like warm, natural colours in a luxury car (like the wood/taupe interior of the LS 430), and felt that the dark leather interior with dark trim made the interior feel drab and uninviting. She had no strong opinion on the interior, one way or the other.

We both agreed that the seats, like other Toyotas we have driven, were too short (no thigh support) and hard. They were reminiscent of the uncomfortable seats we disliked in the Highlander we test drove last January.

Since she was driving, I had a chance to look around the cabin more. I said it was like a Camry because the headliner material, moonroof surround trim and sliding cover, and plastic trim pieces (map lights, visor mirrors, dashboard, etc) were made of typical Camry/Accord quality, no better.

I admit I would have liked it more if it had a natural wood trim, but overall, it just didn't look or feel like a $35,000 car.

Re: ES/TL tweener. Yes, take a TL give it the interior space and quiet ride of the ES, and you'd have a fine touring car.

igiban

Yeah I am sure one can always find some traces of their 'less-fortunate' cousins on one of these Lexus, Acura, Infinity, or Audi. But I've looked around all the 30K cars, and found that ES to have the nicest interior materials that provide the most comfort. TL is 2nd with A4 also decent enough. Others are really so so. If you think ES interior cheap already, I don't know which 30K can you find justified, interior wise. BTW, ES does come with more inviting interior color with real wood trim.

buddhabman

You ought to read more reviews on the new turbo Legacy/Outback. Better yet go test drive one. You don't have to but it will be your loss. The Legacy GT will handily out perform a 325XI. Period !!

kdshapiro

The the 325 is:
1. much better looking
2. probably has a better overall feel

buddhabman

You ought to read more reviews on the new turbo Legacy/Outback. Better yet go test drive one. You don't have to but it will be your loss. The Legacy GT will handily out perform a 325XI. Period !!

kyfdx

Do you mean faster? So what? And the 325xi? That is probably BMW's worst "performing" 3-series.

Can the Subie duplicate the road feel and balance of a 325i? If it can, it will be the first one.

buddhabman

http://motoring.iafrica.com/carsinaction/shootout/291844.htm

Ok let me throw in the 328 and 330. ;-). I have worked over 325's in the canyons of LA with an old style Legacy. I mean neutral handling feel, grip. The US Legacy has always been a chassis in search of a motor. The Japan and Euro spec Legacies have always been known for their driving experience.

kyfdx

Yeah.. and in the '80s, you could get an AMC Reliance GTA that had more grip than a Corvette, due to its tire/wheel set-up. Would I compare them? NO, but someone would... Would I want one over a Corvette? NO again.

Can Boris Said outdrive me even in a Geo Metro? Probably, but I still wouldn't buy one.

regards,
kyfdx
(who really likes Subarus)

kdshapiro

Seriously, when I get the impression the Legacy takes over the title of the best sports sedan, I'll get it. But first, it has to dethrone the TL.

I think it's great the a new Legacy can finally beat a 6 year old BMW design.

Honestly, I think the upcoming twin turbo three series should just about change the equation. But I can here it now...."what about the value"

buddhabman

I am still waiting for the comparos to come. I really like the TL, but it's match with the Legacy is coming .

What did BMW put out their "New" 5 series with a hidden 6 year old design. Bangle had some stuff in the can I guess?

Look I like the 3 series and the TL a bunch. The dude before owes it to himself to drive all the great choices out there of which the Legacy is one of the best. Hey, If you don't like Subie's, hey more power to you. %-)

kdshapiro

BMW as never about 0-60. Yes the offer rockets, but it's about a balance of luxury and sportiness and driver connection with the road.

Actually the "dude" can do what he wants. He may be like me and know his next car is either German or American. Lot's of great choices from both sides, but I'm skipping Japan this time around.

If you want to convince yourself the new Legacy is a "better" car than the 5 series, go for it.

I'll be more than happy to let you blow past me.

dhanley

While i think the comparison with the 9-5 AREO makes sense--i think the areo is a great car, comparing it and a 530to a subaru GT really doesn't work. If we're choosing "any" sedean based on grip and power, carsdirect can get me a 6-speed GTO for $31,190 . It even beats the legacy's combined 21mpg, too ( when both use stick ).

This is still "luxury performance" and there's more to that than 0-60 times.

dave

buddhabman

I agree, the point is not 0-60, it is driving feel, connection to the road and experience. The BMW has always excelled at the crosshairs of sportiness and luxury. You can keep on convincing yourself that no other car compares, but this new Legacy like the Acura TL and the G35 is finally doing the same.

Now comparing the Legacy to the 5 Series is a huge stretch, as admitted in the article referenced. But it just goes to point to the significance of the Legacy.

buddhabman

Yes the Aero is nice(2003 Aero Wagon owner) . It needs stiffer springs to be a true canyon carver, but overall it is pretty under appreciated.
 
Go test drive a Legacy GT Limited. You will be surprised at the interior. I have my disappoinments with it though. It doesn't have NAV or the OnStar that was removed. It also needs backup sensors and HID's, although the projector beams are bright enough.

People we are talking middle class everymans, percieved luxury. There is not a whole lot of differnce in the materials of all these cars including the Subaru now.

I know the Legacy was tossed out of this discussion a while back as I campaigned for it's inclusion. So I will bow out. I kind of feel like Stem Cell supporters at the Republican convention.

kdshapiro

Okay last comment of mine. Perceived luxury there is no such thing. Perceived luxury=perceived value of house. The WRX has been compared to a $100,000 Porsche in the mags. Does that make it so? I have never heard anybody say in real life - Porsche - $70K= WRX.

In order to be considered an entry level luxo, not a perceived entry level luxo, the i's have to be dotted and the t's have to be crossed. It's inside and well as outside.

While magazine reviews never enter into my buying decisions, they are good for trends and informational sources.

When the entry level luxo list list for sports sedans is:
* BMW, Acura, Infiniti, Caddy, Subaru, Saab etc, and the Subaru comes out on top, that's when I'll note them to be given their due.

cdnpinhead

some nerves have been touched.

Is it easier to make the cheap guys good or the good guys cheap?

Appears some of the cheap guys are working to get better. I'm not going to hold my breath for the other piece of it.

kdshapiro

The car market has substantially changed over the last 10-15 years. The expensive guys are going after the less expensive turf, the less expensive turf players are looking to get into the more expensive turf.

Saying either camp is/will be successful is a matter of time to understand if the effort is successful. Somehow just as many pot-shots have been taken on both sides as so far the product produced.

Seems like there are just as many nerves touched on one side as the other, as we all have our respective opinions. Only time will tell. As BMW completes it's product announcements over the next couple of years, it will be an interesting time for them.

I don't think all car manufacturers won't know until about 2007-2008 if their transformation has been on target.

dhanley

Don't know if you mean me, i just didn't want to rehash all the "what belongs in the topic" discussion. If you want to post a "is the 2005 legacy a luxury car?" topic, i'll read it; it ought to be interesting.

I look forward to both highline models becoming more affordable, and affordable models becoming more highline. I figure that, either way, we win.

There is a volvo dealer very close to me, and i admit the new s40 is growing on me. If there really is a 300hp AWD version in the works, that ought to be interesting.

kdshapiro

"300hp AWD"

300hp is nothing these days. All a manufacturer has to do is increase the redline. The hard part is getting 300 hp without making the car seem like a wind-up toy while keeping the overall gas mileage with hard acceleration in the mid-20s.

dhanley

I agree that you want tractable power ( my bmw salesman thinks the z3 3.0L was more fun than the z3M in most situations ), not just power, but to me 300hp is not "nothing." It's overkill to the point of frustration for 99% of driving. I find cars like the vette sort of fustrating because not only can you not use all the power, but you can hardly wind the engine up without getting arrested.

Basically the s40R would have the same drivetrain as the s60R : http://www.edmunds.com/new/2004/volvo/s60r/100278288/roadtestarti- cle.html?articleId=101293 but in a smaller more nimble car.

dave

buddhabman

Most of the new AWD cars with 300HP don't have high redlines. 6000-7000 max like a good majority of cars. The STi, the S60/V70R both have normal redlines, I believe the same is true for the S4 db.

Needless to say you probably don't need more than 200-250hp to have great fun in a sports sedan. But as the sports luxury cars get a bit heavier with all the luxury and safety for example the Audi S4 need the benefit of the additional HP.

But this power is tractable, you just need a track to get all tractable power usage. :-)

nbfc260

Has anybody driven or purchased the new C55 yet. I have went to a 3 local dealers and they all dont have any. When asked about how i can test drive one to see if the ride is what im looking for they told me they only way they would get one in if I ordered one. I cant see putting a deposit down,ordering,waiting 2 months(thats the dealers time line not mine) to find out if I either love it or hate it. If anybody had any ideas let me know. Thank you.

kyfdx

Drive a C430.. Figure the C55 will ride a little rougher, be a little louder and marginally faster, and the insurance rates will be much higher.