Subaru Crew Cafe

robr2

they will always look what they are, frumpy, bland and boring

and realized that many people probably think that way about the Forester ;-)

Yup - I doubt anybody can use the words awe inspiring design and Forester in relation to each other.

ateixeira

True, Forester hasn't had to change its looks much. In fact sales have remained fairly steady since 1998, pretty remarkable.

Then looks at the Celica, I bet sales dropped 90% by its final year.

For Toyota to get more "daring" is risky, IMO. Camry is the #1 seller in the country, so maybe people like it boring.

-juice

p0926

doubt anybody can use the words awe inspiring design and Forester in relation to each other.

Most definitely not. But adjectives like conservative and timeless apply to the Forester.

Avant garde designs like the Murano or FX35/45, while popular and considered more attractive, are much more likely to be dated in a few years.

-Frank

rsholland

that has aged well. Not a one... They all look old and dated.

Bob

rsholland

their future will remain bleak, at least here in the USA. It's a classic case of: "Been there. Done that."

http://www.theautochannel.com/F/news/2004/11/24/288112.html

Bob

locke2c

how about the supra?

~c

tsy

I like some of the old landcruisers too.

tom

rsholland

there's always a couple of exception to the rule, right?

I do think when the word "Toyota" and "styling' are mentioned in the same sentence, "BORING" is the first thing that comes to mind for most people.

Also, while I greatly admire the old Land Cruiser and some Supras, styling is not what comes to me first in terms of fond memories.

Bob

robr2

Isuzu should just pack it up in the US wrt to SUV and light trucks. Concentrate on the middle truck segment and sell diesel engines to everyone who needs them.

hondafriek

Last Supra was pretty daring for Toyota, I actually liked it. the generation Supra before that was Frumpy,and heavy and hardly inspiring as a supposed sporty car.

  Cheers Pat.

locke2c

the last Supra's longevity among enthusiasts and subsequent value is unreal. clean cars, regardless of mileage, still easily fetch $20,000-30,000 and low mileage creampuffs or heavily customized beasts can hit $40k.

it's wild. I wouldn't buy one!

~Colin
would rather put the money into a Z06 C5

hondafriek

Yeah it amazes me too what people are willing to pay for them. They were a pretty nice car, and unlike the 3 previous generations of Supra that were merely posers the last generation was a fast,reasonably good handling car albeit still too heavy.

 I think the fact that they were discontinued in north America adds to the mystique and desirability.

  Cheers Pat.

rsholland

Sound familiar?

http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=101288

Bob

tsy

I think it's the whole "Fast and Furious" thing. All these young guys keep telling me they want a Supra or an RX-7 and that after being 'tuned' to 600hp they could beat anything on the street.

It's hard to explain to them that because of displacement you could tune a Vette or Viper to much more than 600hp. They just don't want to hear that an American made car can be better.

Oh well, let them live illusions while they're young!

tom
would rather put my money in a 993 911 ;-)

locke2c

the supra can hit 600 honest horsepower rather easily, and it is an extremely fast car on the highway in such condition. it's not really that fast in a quartermile without significant additional modification, though.

I'm not into highway racing. I do admit to having gone a touch beyond the speed limit my fair share of times, but to me a race on public roads that starts at 60-70 mph is just insanity.

~c

fibber2

I still see copies of my '90 Camry LE-V6 wagon around, and smile. It has crisp lines that still don't look bad compared to it's contemporaries.

Steve

rsholland

Porsche and Toyota possibly sharing hybrid technology. Seems like Porsche is very interested in this, especially for their Cayenne.

http://www.aiada.org/article.asp?id=28435&cat=Industry

Bob

ateixeira

When The Fast and the Furious came out a lot of those types of cars shot up in value. Supras especially.

Bob - I might as well have written that Audi/VW article.

I still don't see how Porsche can easily update a FWD powertrain into a Cayenne. I'll believe it when I see it.

-juice

rsholland

rsholland "Town Hall Test Drive Team" Nov 27, 2004 7:41pm

ateixeira

Saw that. $31k is a scary price tag. I'd expect to pay less for an STi.

-juice

rsholland

is looking to Toyota, because Toyota is a leader in hybrid technology. I really don't think (or expect) to see the hybrid unit from the Highlander hybrid to be lifted out and placed verbatim into a Cayenne.

Nor would I expect Porsche to want that. I'm sure if anything comes from this, it will be a unit custom tailored to fit a Porsche.

Bob

ateixeira

I wonder if the media is just reading into this a bit too much. Perhaps Porsche will license some technology from 3rd parties that helped Toyota, that I'd believe.

But some of the articles would have you think they're dropping an RX400H powertrain right into the Cayenne, and that's absurd.

The RX sends no engine power to the rear wheels, zero. Even the AWD model. It's purely electric on the rear axle.

Porsche will not do that.

Then again I previously said they'd never build a truck! LOL

-juice

lucien2

Have yet to see one on the road, even here in the Saab-heavy eastern seaboard.

rsholland

I haven't either Loosh. Reports I've read say it's not selling well.

The dealer I went to was FitzMall in Frederick, MD, which is sort of an odd place for a Saab dealer, since it's much more of a rural market out there.

Bob

robr2

I've seen 3 here in the greater Boston area.

rsholland

and check out 9-2x prices against Legacy GT Limited prices, you will find the 9-2x has a slightly higher MSRP, but is discounted more heavily than the Legacy GT Limited.

9-2x Aero 5-speed manual
Delivered Internet Price: $27,583
Delivered Value Price: $27,922
Factory Invoice: $30,583
MSRP: $31,890

Legacy GT Limited wagon 5-speed manual
Delivered Internet Price: $27,145
Delivered Value Price: $27,484
Factory Invoice: $28,423
MSRP: $30,764

This tells me (A) the 9-2x is overpriced, (B) it's not selling as well as the Legacy GT, and (C) the Legacy GT Limited wagon—and especially the WRX wagon, are real bargains.

Bob

rsholland

http://wardsauto.com/ar/auto_porsche_profits_rise/index.htm

beanboy

of Saabarus on the road in Boston. Even heavily discounted, rather go with a real Soobie, like a Legacy GT wagon instead.

-B

rsholland

http://www.detnews.com/2004/autosinsider/0411/29/business-18342.h- tm

ateixeira

Saab is only at 1/4 the pace it has forecast, I believe. 9-2x is definitely overpriced even with the discounts.

Let's see how profits look after they reimburse dealers for all the reliability problems Cayenne has had. ;-)

Saab had a clear identity, but not any more. 9-7 was a bad idea. 9-2x should have been more distinguished.

-juice

robr2

Let's see how profits look after they reimburse dealers for all the reliability problems Cayenne has had. ;-)

You have to presume any warranty costs are in those numbers.

The Boston Globe auto writer noted in his article yesterday that the Cayenne now represents 50% of Porsche sales. It's has done it's job of increasing volume and profit.

rsholland

but the sales success of the Cayenne has clearly shown that Porsche customers (and others) want this vehicle.

Bob

ateixeira

Well, perhaps not yet, is what I'm saying. ;-)

I never said it wouldn't sell. My criticism is that it waters down the Porsche name. They sold out for short-term profits.

-juice

rsholland

They sold out for short-term profits.

What makes you think this is a one-night-stand, and not a long term trend? There are rumors that Porsche will expand they model lineup even further. Maybe this is what Porsche has to do in this day and age to remain an independent carmaker?

Bob

bigelm

Is it just me or ever since Chrysler introduced the big grill in the 300, other car makes are trying to add it in the styles as well? I.e., Audi/VW...

rsholland

No you're correct Elm. There's definitely been a trend to making the center portion of the car grilles visually very dominant. Subaru certainly is doing it, and MB seems to also be doing it with the new SLK and SLR.

Bob

ateixeira

To be honest I'm not sure what Porsche's long-term plan is. They should get back to their core, however: racing.

-juice

c_hunter

I think grill styling is cyclic. We had some huge grills in the 50s and 60s, then grill size started getting smaller in the 80s and 90s. Some cars even did away with a traditional grill and made do with cooling intakes below the bumper. In fact, there have been a large number of "fake" grills in recent years, as car makers found better ways to get cooling flow and the grill became a styling token. Now, I agree, it seems like the trend is reversing. Maybe cars will have a Model-T style radiator and cowl in the not too distant future!

Craig

robr2

To be honest I'm not sure what Porsche's long-term plan is. They should get back to their core, however: racing.

And who'll be funding that endeavor? Racing doesn't pay the bills unless you're selling something.

The Cayenne allowed Porsche to remain independent. Otherwise, we might someday see the Porsche nose grafted onto a Bonneville.

ateixeira

Racing is necessary to create a halo, an image of a sports car builder.

Porsche can afford to take a couple of years off but then people expect to see them get back to business.

Would the WRX be as successful if Subaru didn't participate in WRC?

-juice

c_hunter

Would the WRX be as successful if Subaru didn't participate in WRC?

I think so. Most new Subaru buyers (including me) weren't aware of or cared about the WRC connection until after we bought a WRX! And now I have rally games for my PS2, rally gear, WRX shirts, etc...

The WRX is probably unique as it sparked off a revolution in cars available here in the US by being first of it's kind (ie, high HP, AWD, fast, and inexpensive) in recent years. If anything, it bolstered Subaru's rally image and WRC awareness, not the other way around!

Craig

ateixeira

But look at Subaru's image in the rest of the world. Without WRC they'd be virtually unknown.

-juice

hammerhead

I went to bed before the news came on last night, so it was a surprise!

One inch & counting... and more in them thar hills!

And (sigh) me without the snow tires on.. til tomorrow Got to work in one piece & I'm sure I can get home tomorrow, it's just these summer tires are so hard they don't stop so well.

Steve(host) - wax up them boards, man!

Cheers!
Paul

ateixeira

Ya see, there's the trade-off with snow tires. I guess getting the first snow forecast right takes a little magic. ;-)

-juice

hammerhead

The forecast was spot-on, I just didn't stay awake long enough to hear it!

Cheers!
Paul

ateixeira

Here it's awful. They forecast snow and then it never comes.

The Appalachian Mountains seem to kill any momentum that the approaching clouds have, so very often we have false alarms.

And mounting and unmounting of snow tires. :-)

-juice

subearu

I've got the snows (AA's) on our MPV already, even though it's only rained since I installed them Friday.

-Brian

robr2

juice - it's not the poor forecasting in DC that eliminates the need for snows. It's because everybody walks after the "Abandon Vehicle Now" light comes on!!

robr2

I'm north of Boston. They went on the Odyssey about 2 weeks ago - it was snowing while I was installing them. They'll come off in April.

hammerhead

Mine are mounted - just have to fire up the floor jack & compressor when I get home from work in the morning. I'm done, put away, and ready to roll in an hour or so (twice as long if the kids are helping) They're in school, so the original estimate holds.

Cheers!
Paul