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Comments
Subaru is trying to get away with one car for both markets. JDM taxes force them to use a small platform. If you look at the Mazda6, Acura TSX, and a Legacy, they're all nearly identical in size. I'm sure they're all just under those limits.
Honda, Toyota, and Nissan build a car for the USA primarily. Nissan did the best job with rear seat room, so my guess is we're both right (it's a wheelbase AND a greenhouse issue).
I have to admit, I'm becoming very picky. Nit-picky, even. Mazda has a great package and only missed on some minor items, yet I'm not compelled by it.
juice,
That could finally explain Hadji's confusion!!!
25 NX 450h+ / 24 Sienna Plat AWD / 23 Civic Type-R / 21 Boxster GTS 4.0
Mark
Check out the "Talk to the Press" threads. They always ask for very, very specific people. Such as, "people that bought hybrids after owning large trucks that got less than 12mpg".
You can usually find a slant like that, i.e. a strong bias towards the angle in the article (in this case people that favor fuel economy).
If they just asked for "people that traded in a large truck", they'd get a lot of new truck owners, because many still need the capabilities it offers.
I just had to share this description of Bhutan, a lovely little Himalayan kingdom with the lowest car ownership in the world.
"Here, every building is built in a handsome, 16th-century style; whitewashed and adorned with intricately carved wooden windows and door frames. Many are decorated with images of phalluses — a legacy of Bhutan's maverick saint, Lama Drupka Kinley, who, legend has it, hit errant demons over the head with his penis to turn them into protective deities."
Bhutan has recently joined the motor sport calendar - well okay - sort of hosted a motor sport event by co-hosting the Indo-Bhutan Friendship Car Rally. I'd love to go and see it!
Cheers
Graham
Bob
John Waters:
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000691/
John Holmes:
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001360/
~Colin
Bob
Anyone know why gasoline prices would go up dramatically and diesel stay stagnant?
Around here, diesel still costs more than regular, but driving up to CT I observed diesel prices slightly below regular.
Keep in mind diesel powertrains cost more than gas ones, for instance the BMW diesel costs $1800 more than the 335i, which itself costs more than the 330i.
-Frank
It's amazing how the future prices move around based on weather and hurricane season.
-mike
Now it's only 6-20 cents more here. And like I said, it actually cost less in CT.
Problem is, it varies so much that you have to make assumptions to even guess at a break-even point.
Get a diesel for the torque and the extra range, those are things you can bank on.
-mike
Seems to me that this is the most public example of private equity getting into a big global business....I'm sure there are better examples, but it's the first that has really gotten my attention. This will be a very interesting transition.
http://blogs.edmunds.com/Straightline/2756
Bob
Will DCX go back to being called Daimler-Benz?
I see they kept 20%, probably to keep the successful Sprinter deal going.
Turning Chysler around will entail getting major concessions from the UAW. That group unfortunately has a history of shooting itself in the foot before they will give an inch.
Cheers Pat.
Jeep is probably worth the most. They'll sell that division, watch.
It's already in the plans - IIRC, they're going to to be just Daimler.
I see they kept 20%, probably to keep the successful Sprinter deal going.
They also share quite a few components, suppliers and key resources. Each company will continue to rely on each other for years to come just like Ford continued to buy BMW engines after they bought Land Rover.
Most likely. Cerberus is in this to make money - not to make cars. As an investment firm, they don't go into a deal unless they see a potential reward. They go in looking for the unlocked profit/potential in the deal.
It's gonna be ugly.
http://blogs.edmunds.com/Straightline/2782
Bob
It's someone here at work. He was the first one to test drive it, and pretty much wanted it on the spot. Spoke to his wife and got the OK, and paid me already.
Wow! I wasn't even ready to be car-less. The Tribecas are not here yet! :surprise:
No more double-foresterness for me, back to owning just one Forester.
Well, the coworker is lucky to be getting such a well-maintained car. Is your plan still to snag the first 08 'Beca you can get your hands on?
(Sorry if this has been discussed elsewhere and I've missed it.)
I didn't expect it to sell so quickly. I thought it would take 2-3 weeks for sure. Not so.
Tomorrow I will go to a regional dealership event in Arlington, VA, to introduce the 08 Tribeca to the public in the DC area. Bob is going too. I actually convinced the wife that we should take the whole family, for a "test fit".
We did take the time to drive the two minivan segment leaders. Reviews to follow shortly. For now I'll just say that it is VERY frustrating trying to get what you want, without paying for stuff you don't want, and both of them make several compromises. They also left me with some pleasant surprises.
Hersons Honda had a tent event outside and was passing out free hot dogs, so we were glad the kids were along and had a quick lunch there. Then we met a surprisingly low-pressure salesman who was very helpful in answering my specific questions and showing us some of the detailed features on the loaded EX-L model we test drove.
We actually sat in an LX model first, outside, under the tent. The whole family really liked the plush, velvetty fabric on the seats. The model doesn't offer the 8th seat, or the power sliding doors, and a few other things high on our priority list, but the seats were great.
They pulled up the EX-L NAV RES and we immediately fell in love with the power sliding doors. Touch two buttons and both kids piled in just like that. Plus you can close them from the driver's seat. I think all day long, this simple feature was what we liked most.
I went to program the NAV, and it wasn't quite as intuitive as I expected. I'd heard great things about Honda's GPS systems, but this required use of buttons and touchscreen controls, and I'm used to touchscreen only. The voice was soothing and it re-calculated directions when I intentionally drove a different path effortlessly.
The screen also serves as a backup cam. I thought I would love it. Nope. Found that visibility was pretty good already, and I looked back to back up anyway. In fact I did not use the backup screen at all. That was a surprise. It would help to line up a trailer, sure, but it's not at all essential for basic parking and backing up.
The leather seats were a bit hard, 3 out of 4 of us found them *less* comfortable than the LX' cloth. That was a bummer. The driver's seat also had a lump in the lumbar support, even at the lowest setting. I was simply not comfortable in that seat, so right there I decided that would not be the model I got even if we did choose an Odyssey.
It drove well, riding far better than the Pilot, as I recall it, and handling decently for all its size and mass. I did sense some torque steer, but I wouldn't be driving a minivan in that manner, so I think here it's acceptable.
The engine was fine, and VCM was unnoticeable, doing its job quietly. Steering is Honda standard, i.e. way overboosted and a bit numb compared to what I'm used to. To be fair, I'm used to smaller, sportier vehicles.
The kids saw the DVD movie player, and that deal was sealed. We will get one, regardless, even if we have to go aftermarket. They loved it.
The middle of the 2nd row is not very comfy. It's a seat for use in a pinch, not for a long trip. The armrests become the backrest, and it's just not wide enough for an adult. OK only in a pinch.
I really wanted better seats, though, so we then asked to check out a regular EX model, with cloth seats. I was disappointed to find cheap looking mouse-fur style cloth. I have no idea why they put plush velvet in the LX, and recycled peach fuzz in the EX. At least the seats were better than the leather in the EX-L, and the lumbar support did not bother me with the cloth. Odd, but the cheaper the van, the more I liked the seats.
Still, even though the fabric was a bit cheesy, we still left the dealership thinking the EX model was the best compromise for us. I say compromise because you can't get NAV or the RES with that model - you have to get the hard leather.
Internet price quotes run in the mid $26k range. Not too bad, but I'd need to add the DVD movie player and a portable NAV system, so with tax and those two things we're getting close to $30k.
It was informative and useful to drive it, because we established a benchmark for Toyota to beat.
We decided to drive the closest to the Honda van that we liked, so that meant an LE model with package 3. That package adds stability control (shamelessly still not standard), rear disc brakes, and the much-desired 2nd power sliding door. It matches up pretty closely to the Odyssey EX, each model offering a couple of very minor items the other doesn't have. Close enough.
In terms of comfort, the Sienna wins. The cloth is very plush, equal to the Odyssey LX, and all four of us liked it. That plus the 8th seat is a REAL seat. Wide enough that I was able to sit in it for a quick ride to the gas station (the salesman drove). The kids made it clear they preferred the Toyota, probably with taking a friend along in mind.
I then took over and liked the driver's seat, too. No issue with lumpy lumbar support, though the seat could be juuust a bit firmer and/or offer more side support.
The ride is a bit smoother and noticeably more quiet than the Ody, except when you step in to the new 3.5l engine, which is seriously impressive. It's a hot rod engine in a tame car, and easily outguns the Honda. Fuel economy is also better at this equipment level, because the Honda doesn't offer VCM at this price.
Handling is not as tight as the Honda, a bit more body roll, and it just doesn't encourage you to drive quickly. Acceptable, harmless, sure, but a bit of a compromise. Noone will be asking for the keys to drive, put it that way.
Price was better than the Honda, too, by several hundred dollars. Lower price, better gas mileage (at this content level), better seating, all it needs is a better suspension and this would be a complete no-brainer.
The catch is it fails to instill any passion at all. I would drive it, sure, but because I had to, not because I wanted to. So for me, it's time to sit back and think about this compromise.
And that's not the only one, back to those packages...you can add a movie player for the back seat, but you either give up the 2nd power sliding door (why?) or the stability control option (WHY?).
I'm sorry but that is just OBTUSE.
Why, oh why, Toyota, would a family with enough kids to want a movie player not want a key safety feature? :mad:
Either that, or give up our favorite feature, i.e. the power door on one of the sides. It simply makes no sense. :confuse:
So again, we would compromise, and get the model we drove, then add an aftermarket movie player and a portable NAV. This would come in a little more than a grand cheaper than the Honda, and call me unselfish, but I think it's enough to conclude, at this price, with this equipment level, Sienna > Odyssey.
I wonder, though, how many people buy a Honda just because they get upset at the way Toyota packages its options.
I'm still trying to convince my wife to at least TRY an Entourage. Hyundai offers heated cloth seats, a DVD player, and everything except NAV for less than either. So in terms of price and packaging it wins, hands down.
The verdict is still out. I have not yet found a choice that is compelling enough to make me buy one now. I'm hoping an Entourage or a Tribeca changes my mind.
Finally, the 3rd-row passenger gets a HUGE window to look out of; and it's got AWD. Maybe the AWD isn't as good as the Tribeca—but at least its there.
Bob
But you hint at my bigger issues with the Pilot - the AWD system is still FWD based, so you pay more and get less space with lower gas mileage on top of it all. Plus the design is old now, and really does nothing for me (neither to the vans, but SUVs should at least raise your pulse).
I think I'd get the van if it'll be a Honda. More space for less money, better gas mileage, and while it's not AWD it does have stability control and the Pilot feels like FWD anyway.
What surprised me was that the rear passenger has such a huge window to look out of—much better than the Tribeca, even the '08 model. That also aids in cutting down that over-the-shoulder blindspot.
I guess what I'm saying if the 3 rows are a big issue for you, and it sounds like it is, I think the Pilot would be a good compromise between a minivan and an AWD SUV. I suspect the Tribeca will be the most fun to drive, but the rear-most passengers—even with the sliding middle-row seat still have a rather small window (compared to the Pilot) to look out of. Lastly, the Pilot has 3 seatbelts in the 3rd row seats, like a minivan.
Bob
It has tons of room for an SUV and reasonably sized adults can actually sit in the back seat (not as much room as a minivan though!) but keep in mind it's a bit shorter than any of the "mini" vans, which makes it a lot more manueverable in tights spots (To give you an idea, these minivans are about the same dimensions as a Toyota Sequoia or Ford Expedition!)
As for FWD based AWD, it's quite a good system, able to shift 50% to the back wheels on demand, and you can lock the center diff. I drove it over a mountain pass at night in a snowstorm a month ago and it did great. I would have hated to have done that in a minivan!
Between the Odyssey and Sienna, I like the Sienna. Very comfortable and quiet, better mileage and reliability than the Odyssey (I have friends with both minivans) and knowing how long you keep cars Juice, I think the Toyota will be better in the long run.
As for fun to drive- are you kidding? These are minivans! You're asking a frog to be a princess! They do what they do well, but don't ask them to be more than they can be.
Good luck Juice
tom
For the Odyssey EX, very nearly equivalent (they each add a couple of very minor items), the best price is $26,883. And the EX level does not have VCM, so the Sienna gets better mileage at that price point.
The Pilot with AWD jumps up in price, $28,916. The 07 Tribeca 7 pass with cloth is similar, $27,538, but I have $1100 Subaru bucks so I could get it for $26,438. Even for the same price (the 08s will be close), I just prefer the way the Tribeca drives. And if I'm going to give that up, I may as well make the family happy and get the most space for less money.
That brings me to an AWD Sienna, but then you can't get the 8 passenger model (DOH!). Once again Toyota's strange packaging messes that up. You also have to get run-flat tires, with a harder ride, and remember this is a trip car for the beach, i.e. summer time.
I think I'd pay the price and the small penalty in gas mileage, but we really want that center seat. Even the Tribeca has it, so I don't want to compromise there.
There is no perfect choice, I'm realizing. We have to compromise somewhere.
-mike
Wifey would have been tempted to trade HER car in for a van, in that case.
We may get a van and swap cars until the 09 Forester arrives.
Plenty of options.
Funny thing is my best buddy had a work van, fleet car, and hated having to give it up. He was SINGLE!
Bob
That's the thing - I'm not stuck driving whatever it is I get daily. It's an evening/weekend car for when I have the kids.
The wife is already talking about how convenient the power sliding doors would be, so I have a feeling she's use the big car when she had to take the kids around, and the Legacy just to commute to VA alone (she works part-time).
How 'bout this for a fleet - a hybrid or diesel for the wife's commute, a big van for the family trips, and a AWD or even 4WD open top car for me to commute in and have fun. :shades:
That last one could be anything from a Forester with a huge moonroof, to the Jeep-like Subaru Bob has been dreaming up for years.
Bob
As for the leather seats on the Ody - they'll break it and soften up. IMHO, I prefer hard leather as they'll last longer.