Subaru Crew Cafe

robr2

Well, it has become an appliance.

You can't say that until you drive it.

Although, I will say the interior looks like a lovely place to spend some time compared to the Camry, Legacy and Accord.

xwesx

Doh! I didn't check it. :mad:

They did clean the windshield as I had requested, though. The fumes had created an impressive film on the inside of it, make it somewhat difficult to see through!

volkov

Well, I expect the Passat and Jetta to do much better in Canada given their new pricing. The previous V6 wagon 4Motion was $50k and didn't come close to being worth it next to a OB Limited.

ateixeira

Well, at least it didn't cheapen out with torsion beams like base Jettas.

robr2

Like I said - the typical buyer they are targeting with the Jetta (sorority girls and accountants) doesn't car about torsion beams or dash stroking.

tsy

Well, I think the only thing VW had going for them was the 'fun to drive' since reliability was not anywhere near the 'japanese appiancemobiles'- there is something to be said for good reliable transportation and I don't think there's anything wrong with the millions of people who don't really care that driving is not fun (in fact, some people actually don't like driving! :surprise: )

But I think VW has lost their niche and I don't think they can compete with the Japanese or Korean reliability.

If they are trying to compete in making boring looking cars, though, they're doing pretty well with the new Jetta and Passat.

tom

tsy

Hey Rob, any relief from the snow there yet???

It's funny, we get 3" here in Seattle and the whole city shuts down!!!

tom

robr2

Well, I think the only thing VW had going for them was the 'fun to drive'
since reliability was not anywhere near the 'japanese appiancemobiles

That is true - VW's had soul. My 05 Passat is a hoot to drive even though it' a wagon with a torsion beam rear suspension. As for reliability, I have to say that so far this Passat has been exceptionally reliable in the 80K miles I've had it. I know it's a survey of one...

there is something to be said for good reliable transportation and I don't think there's anything wrong with the millions of people who don't really care that driving is not fun (in fact, some people actually don't like driving!

Fully agree.

But I think VW has lost their niche and I don't think they can compete with the Japanese or Korean reliability.

We'll they've made a decision to go volume and to do so they will have to compete against that reliability. Some people may disagree but one can't continue to lose billions every year in the second largest market and stay relevant.

As for the snow - yeah we're dug out. I got about 22" at my house.

ateixeira

I agree, but VW risks losing their identity. They were *the* non-luxury brand for dash strokers. Owner tolerated less-than-ideal reliability for the soft-touch plastics and upscale materials.

Let's just say the new one had better be reliable!

robr2

And I agree with you although I expect the new Passat and anything else coming out of Chattanooga to be Non Lux Dash Stroker approved.

Remember, the Jetta was already made in Mexico. The only way to get cost down was to de-content it. The Passat will be shifting from Made in Germany to Made in America in the new plant. Right there, costs dropped 30%+ based on exchange rate. No need to de-content.

ateixeira

Good points.

Why such anonymous styling, though?

Yeah, yeah, I know.

hammerhead

Yeah, Tom, that is pretty funny to us over here on the east side!! :P

We got about 5 inches yesterday - it's almost all gone already!

tsy

Hey Paul

Yeah, I know, Seattle-ites can't even drive in the rain, let alone the snow!

Our snow mostly disappeared before morning- the rain washed it all away!

Kids were so disappointed to go to school!

tom

volkov

It has basically been snowing non-stop since last weekend. Only 1-2 inches per day but some days more than others and it just won't stop.
link title
Scroll down for the longer term forecast. Which is basically non stop too.
Biggest problem is that it is too cold to enjoy it. We will probably go out for an hour ski x-country tomorrow,but too cold to be sitting on a lift.

colin_l

That's pretty damn cold! We got 6-8 inches early this week, but nothing since Monday night or so. Today was the first day in the 30s, though, so all the snow stuck around. It was in the single digits the other morning.

Did some sledding with my nearly four year-old. His first time because we didn't get any good snow at all last year. He loved it! Fortunately, he was done in about a half hour.

ateixeira

If he's anything like my kids, you dragged him on the sled the whole time, and YOU were done in about half hour!

xwesx

Yep - that's getting to about the limit of being able to not be active and tolerate the cold. I will play boot hockey down to about -15F (-26C) - maybe -20F, but after that it just stops being fun after the first twenty or thirty minutes! Sledding, about zero (-18C) is it for me having fun. That wind chill just gets to be too much in very short order!

I bet it looks amazing there right now, though! I love getting a bit of fresh snowfall to turn all the grey back into white. :shades:

colin_l

There's a hill in my (soon to be) in-laws' neighborhood that was just about right for him... faster or higher/longer, and he might have too scared to enjoy it!

However, I was pretty knackered just climbing the hill. I have severe bronchitis and couldn't catch my breath. Two days before, I was tramping through much tougher terrain for 3 hours and that was fine!

volkov

This might be a Paisan centred question, but maybe others know. For my boys's (hopefully not lousy like that snow tire video) science fair experiment, we are looking at whether cars stop better in snow/ice during city driving with or without ABS. This is a simple issue with the XL which uses a single fuse, but new WRX like my 2009 have it all integrated into the VDC system. Is it possible to disable independantly? We wanted to try different vehicles as one of the variables. Much conflicting and seeming uninformed opinions out there on it.

colin_l

I would be very surprised if stability management for *any* vehicle functioned when ABS was disabled via the fuse.

For your science experiment, no problem. But I wouldn't suggest driving around with ABS disabled for any reason.

crkyolfrt

Interesting test. And i doubt I would be surprised by the results in capable hands.

But keep in mind that if a crash were to occur and even if it wasn't your fault, if the insurance company finds out you pulled the fuse, they will use anything to get out of paying these days.

paisan

I agree, the insurance company probably would weasel out of it.

On that note, I think on the newer cars with VDC the disabling of the ABS also disables the VDC.

There was a discussion on the LGT boards about trying to disable them independently and it hasn't been resolved yet.

-mike

volkov

I wouldn't suggest driving around with ABS disabled for any reason.

The rally crowd do it all the time. It is well known that ABS on rough gravel roads can seriously impair braking effectiveness. I do quite a bit of gravel road driving and have experienced loss of braking in the WRX - it gets ones' attention. Easiest way around it is downshift and engine braking, then brake when speed comes down, but that's not always easy in sudden stop situations and doesn't work in the truck with AT.
There is also ++ research out that there which has failed to show any real world safety outcome improvement for ABS. Earliest research in fact showed increased mortality. Look it up.

volkov

thanks Mike. I don't mind if the VDC goes down at the same time, but I think that affects you track guys from standpoint of Stock class doesn't it?
My concern was the VDC sneaking in and being a back door to activate the ABS.
This will be done at moderate speed in very large empty parking lot. I have no conerns re. accidents. My kids will be out there too, so no risks will be taken whatsoever. Plan is for low speed - only 40 and possibly 50 km/hr. I've already done dry runs at that speed and there was plenty of safety margin.

paisan

Actually a lot of track guys falsly think that disabling the ABS/Traction Control is good. I always leave mine engaged as it makes me a significantly faster driver because I can't react as fast as ABS/VDC can. I think the only time folks benefit is in low traction conditions such as gravel or snow.

Looking forward to the results. I won a lot of science projects in Jr. HS and HS myself.

-mike

colin_l

Count me as a person included in the 'well known'.

There's no reason for any person *driving on-road* to disable ABS. You could out-break it in the late 80s / early 90s, but you definitely cannot outperform it now.

volkov

Yes, agreed there. We drive on snow covered streets for about 5 months a year. Many folks here do disable their ABS in winter, and the guys who do lots of forestry road driving do the same. Question is whether this helps, or are we better letting it do it's job in low traction. Or are we just fooling ourselves like some track guys who are sure they drive better even though there are ++ examples in the automotive media where despite the cries against the electronic nanny, that the cars had much better lap times with VDC on than off.

xwesx

Question is whether this helps, or are we better letting it do it's job in low traction.

As someone who drives so much of the time on winter roads, I am surprised that you're even asking this question. The whole point of ABS is for low-traction conditions. Granted, many people don't know how to use it properly, but, used correctly, it dramatically improves the vehicle's ability to stop while allowing the driver, at the same time, the ability to steer.

I drive both types of vehicles all the time in six months (usually) of snow and ice, and there is no question that the ABS-equipped cars are easier to control. Now, whether one stops faster than the other in identical conditions, that is not so clear (and, as I read it, the point of your experiment?).

VDC, on the other hand, annoys me and is nothing more than an electronic nanny. Every once in a while it can be useful, but most of the time it hinders. I imagine that people who have very little knowledge of how to drive might say it saves their butts, but I am very glad that the Forester includes an off switch for that feature.

volkov

don't think we are going into Nobel calibre work here, it's just a science fair experiment. The boys (all 4 of us) love Mythbusters, and are always talking about potential myths for them to test. This seemed like a good option that would let 2 of the boys do a Mythbuster like experiment so therefore create geniune interest for them in the project. They are disappointed however that we couldn't come up with anything that would involve the use of C4!!

paisan

I suppose that the fuel cut portion of the VDC can be annoying. Luckily for me on my caddy and my sti there is a "sport" mode on their ETC systems that allows VDC to work (the brake portion) while not cutting engine fuel.

To be honest though, I never take either of my 3 vehicles out of ETC when on-road. I put the CTS-V and the STi in "sport" mode for on-track activities though and that brake assisted ETC is pretty darn helpful.

-mike
Subaru Guru and Track Instructor

xwesx

They are disappointed however that we couldn't come up with anything that would involve the use of C4!!

Hah! Well, I have to suspect that their father, deep down, probably feels the same way. You just have to remind them that this is just a science fair experiment, and you will all just have to swallow your disappointment stoically.

Perhaps a trip to a local ice cream shop to celebrate the completion of the experiment will ease the suffering?

ateixeira

you definitely cannot outperform it now

The real advantage of modern ABS is it manages the 4 channels independently.

Even the best F1 drivers will occasionally lock one wheel - they would have to lift off the brakes and affect all 4 wheels to prevent just that one from skidding. You go to 0% braking to recover from the skid.

ABS can relieve pressure just on that spinning wheel. The other 75% of traction is put to full use the whole time.

So ABS > the best F1 drivers.

You would need 4 brake pedals and be an arachnid to match ABS. :shades:

volkov

Need to remember though that not all vehicles use 4 channel, and almost certainly because most consumers think ABS is ABS so they don't spend the extra $$. I can't remember which, but at least one of CR-V and Rav4 didn't offer 4 channel when I was shopping in 04. I am trying to find an absolute reference, but I am pretty sure the Yukon is 3 channel at best.
Many say "4 wheel ABS" in their specs, but that doesn't necessarily mean 4 channel. Subie on the other hand.....

once_for_all

With the 10.5 compression ratio (vs 10.0 on the previous engine), I would expect it must be DI...otherwise, the problem of detonation would be much more serious on 87 octane. If careless with the clutch, I can easily get knocking from my 2003 manual tranny Forester when I start away from a stop.

But, why so mum about such a big step forward?

John

ateixeira

That's true.

tsy

Actually Juice, you'd only need 4 legs for the 4 brake pedals, so being a spider would be overkill. A cockroach would do.

It's stupid how people read in magazines that all these cars perform better on a racetrack with ESC off- so they think they too will be faster with it off!

I have a friend who 'had' a brand new Evo X, he and some friends rented a mountain road in OR and while driving too fast lost control and went sideways into a tree totaling the car. I asked him why he turned the ESC off- "because it's faster". Umm, no, he didn't finish his run so it was a lot slower!

When I become a professional F1 driver, I'll consider turning it off. Until then, I'll gladly let ESC save my butt!

tom

ateixeira

4 for the brakes, 2 for the steering wheel, 2 for texting. LOL

xwesx

Hah; well, if that's the case, all those extra eyes should come in handy as well!

colin_l

I'll gladly let ESC save my butt!

Totally agreed... your friend was lucky to live through it. Did his insurance cover everything? The rented road and disabling ESC probably did not go over well...

I've actually never even autocrossed my Evo8. I took my M3 out twice but when I got the Evo I was scared of voiding the warranty and now many years later... autocross doesn't exist in Wichita proper. They do a few events at remote locations 40-60 minutes away, and I've just never had enough interest to consider spending a whole day dodging cones.

volkov

It's stupid how people read in magazines that all these cars perform better on a racetrack with ESC off- so they think they too will be faster with it off!

Actually, in my personal experience I'd say I've seen more articles saying the ESC made the car run faster laps, although in some cases the reporter said it felt less "fun". It was the case for one Evo or STi review I remember in particular. Where they ran the same course with it on and then disabled. I think forums are a more likely source of "you go faster with ESC off". Same as rants about speed limits just being there for the people who can't drive, but I'm a great driver so I shouldn't have to slow down.

tsy

Yup- insurance paid for everything. His Evo was his second Evo X which he had had for like, 2 months before totalling it. Guess what he bought with the insurance money? Another one!

I'm pretty sure in the hand of a professional driver, ESC will slightly slow them down- the problem is most men think they are better drivers than they really are!!!! :surprise:

tom

rsholland

Need Subies parts? Here's new outlet from SOA.

http://www.subaru.com/estore/index.html

http://parts.subaru.com/

Bob

xwesx

Hahah; that's for sure. I leave the VDC on in the Forester during general driving, but shut it off when I take to the trails because it invariably kills my momentum every time I try to take a steep hill or a hill w/ deep snow. For navigating obstacles that test the open differentials, though, it performs fantastically.

paisan

Just for the record, I drove to work on Friday in about 3"-4" of snow covered roads. 35 miles and I'm not exactly light on the gas. The ESC/VDC didn't engage 1x except for when I totally floored it to try to get the ESC/VDC to kick on...

-mike
Subaru Guru and Track Instructor

volkov

Single fuse for both VDC and ABS. Very unhappy instrumentation display once removed, but what shocked me was that the speedometer stopped working! I was still able to speed match for the stopping tests because the Tach was still functional and I took a rev reading for 3rd gear at 30 mph. BUT, I will have to get the shop boys to reset the error code which won't go away after replacing the fuse. This science fair just got more expensive.
Planning to use the truck for the next series. Preliminary results show stopping 10 feet shorter in heavily compacted snow without ABS.

ateixeira

FWIW, the stability control on the Forester doesn't bother me; it's just not that intrusive.

Toyota's VSC on my Sienna is, however. I have to turn it off. Of course "Off" is really just a higher treshold in that case, and that makes it acceptable.

In winter, though, the ultra-long wheelbase Sienna cannot even make it up my driveway without VSC turned off. The Forester laughs it off, you don't even notice the pavement is slippery in comparison.

paisan

And I've seen your driveway and it isn't exactly "steep".

-mike
Subaru Guru and Track Instructor

volkov

I love the level of VSC in the WRX and the fact it is very predictable. It lets me get a little aggressive when I want to have fun. Only turn it off in very deep snow situations when it bogs down off a standing start or when having donut fun in parking lots.

rsholland

An Outback crossing the Outback.

http://www.motortrend.com/features/travel/1103_subaru_outback_through_the_outbac- k/index.html

There's a 28 minute or so video of an Outback H6 driving across the Australian Outback. It did quite well.

Bob

ateixeira

Cool.

That dude needs a haircut.