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Comments
-Frank P.
The conference I'm attending is at the Marriott Wardman Park Hotel near the zoo. I think there's a Metro station (Red Line) right there so getting to Farragut West should be relatively easy.
-Frank P.
Glad you're OK, you'll laugh about this later.
Frank: 11:30 sounds good to me, Bob? Mike?
-juice
Bob
I'm 27 now and this was my first real taste of "woods" riding and my initial impression is that it isn't a ton safer than motorcross!
-Colin
I never owned one, but they were a blast.
-Dennis
No engine braking either (since there is no compression stroke), and that takes getting used to!
-juice
-Colin
Can we really trust you? ;-)
-juice
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/usatoday/20021017/bs_usatoday/4542318
News from Sydney Car Show
Sti
http://www.autoweb.com.au/start_/showall_/id_SUB/doc_sub0210181/cms/news/newsarticle.html
Entry-level H-6 Outback, sans leather & moonroof
http://www.autoweb.com.au/start_/showall_/id_SUB/doc_sub0210182/cms/news/newsarticle.html
I bet we get this as an '04 model. Even though this is a "base" model, so to speak, it comes with the self-levelling rear suspension as standard.
Bob
Ed
-juice
Otherwise, we'll just have to stick with shops like RalliSpec. :-)
-Dennis
STICKER PRICE DOES NOT DICTATE RIGHT OF WAY.
Reading that "WRX v M3" thread is a good example. I wonder if that blue & white quartered circle is just shorthand for a certain part of the driver's anatomy. (Edit: Of course you could interpret the Subaru stars as six smaller versions of same.)
Ed [/rant]
Still I return to the "WRX v M3" forum this morning and I read what I will charitably term questionable behavior on the part of a forum host. We try (sometimes not hard enough) to restrain biases here; the hosts should be held to that standard as well.
Ed
I just went to the Catskills and got two completely different directions from the internet (I already had directions, I was just comparing time). MapBlast listed the trip at 3 hours. MapQuest listed it at almost 4 hours. The Mapblast directions were spot on with what I got from the folks we were visiting.
Will a device like the Garmin give different possibilities?
On the way back, we took a slightly different route. More scenic, and the time was slightly less. I used an atlas and made a couple of wrong turns, but ended up doing ok.
Just wondering how flexible GPS is with choosing different routes.
*For those that might know the area*
I went to Andes over the weekend. On the way there, we took the NY Thruway to Kingston, then 28 West for 50 miles. On the way back we took 30 to 17 East, to the Thruway.
-Dennis
Me? I'm not sure if I could own a Bimmer simply because all my family would be hitting me up for loans! :-)
-juice
-mike
As for BMWs, I've driven a handful (most recent: 540i Touring) and yes, they're to be experienced. My favorite was the 2002. However, I find maintenance and repair costs are prohibitive especially given how long I keep cars and how many miles I put on them. I'd rather put that money to use elsewhere.
Ed
For the price, I prefer the G35, lightly equipped.
-juice
I'll let you know in a year or two how that pans out. In the first six months, I have put about $500 worth of P&L into my '95 M3. AC recharge (not avoidable, IMO... it's 7 years old), alternator bearing, idle control motor, labor.
It's not Porsche-expensive though. It is well built and with just over 70k miles on the clock, I'm not worried about much.
-Colin
I have toyed with the idea of buying a hobby 2002 in the past, however.
Ed
I had thought about getting a stripped 325 for the wife, since I'm a G4 and can get a diplomatic UN passport. That would exempt me from certain taxes, so I could buy one for a grand or two less than the market price.
The main reason I didn't was space - they are too small for a family of four, like ours. The 325 wagon isn't much bigger. I'd get a WRX wagon cheaper if we thought a compact would do.
But it was tempting. I had a friend who did this twice. He got a 318 for cheap, drove it for about 2 years, then sold it for what he paid. It cost him next to nothing, because even the service was free. Then he got a 325 sedan, and again kept it for just 2 years. He repeats the cycle and always has a new Bimmer, some how paying almost nothing for it.
Even so, it's a lot of money to tie up, and doesn't really meet our needs. Plus, options are tempting. I'd want the moonroof and the sport package at the very least, and a wagon with just those retails for $32,595, and that's not even the AWD model ($34,045, ouch).
The roomier and very sweet 5 series is more like $40 and up with a moonroof and sport package.
We got everything we wanted for $19k, moonroof, 6CD, and alloys included. That's about half.
But a stripped 325 sedan for $25 grand with discounts wouldn't be bad if I just wanted entry into the luxury class.
-juice
(So, is it politically incorrect for a Hispanic to tell me this? .. or only politically incorrect for me to repeat it???)
This was a direct quote from Mr Shiftright in the WRX vs M3 topic in Coupes, convertibles, etc.
It was interesting because almost all who participated in the discussion liked BMWs on one level or another. The snob car comment came up as an observation much like that of SUV poseurs that Paisan points out. It was no way an attack on owners. Sure, it could have been worded better but it certainly wasn't borderline racist such as "R_cers". Because of the quote above Mr. Shiftright took it upon himself to archive the discussion. While it is within his right as a host, I believe he was totally out of line and at best it just furthered is unfettered, biased support of BMWs. This prevented any disussion to go forward when he included himself in the various responses. In fact, if you go and read the discussion thread from the point where he made this post, you will see that the general consensus was disbelief that he'd reacted in such a way. I guess he decided to take his marbles and go home. I think it was a sad and immature reaction to lock a thread based on nothing more than personal prejudice (much like that in which he was against in the first place). I'm sorry for the rant. I was going to save it for the "Crew" discussion on Thursday. I have a real problem w/authority when it's overreactive.
Oh yeah, and for the record, I love BMWs and I love my WRX. :-)
Stephen
Ed
Ever seen "Freak" with Jon Leguizamo? Now *that* might offend some people, but personally I find him hysterical.
-juice
Perhaps I'd need to see it in context of the original discussion. Or perhaps you (and others) were overreacting.
On just the surface though, I think he has a point. Edmunds' moderators have definitely been instructed to not permit comments along the "ricer" vein, so I can see where he may have been establishing a parallel with the "snob car" bit.
Reading the 3 series topic and others, I have no doubt there are some who buy luxury marques to "wear" their cars as much (or in some cases, more) than they drive them. That's not my cup of tea, but I don't go out of my way to scorn these people... there's nothing to gain and everything to loose by acting that way.
I bought an M3 because no one else made a total package quite like it in 95-97 or so (cars I can afford). I didn't buy it for the propeller on the hood, or for people to go... "Wow, an M3." Today I'd buy a C32 AMG instead of an M3 if I had $50-55k to throw at a sport sedan.
-Colin
I don't have a problen w/differing opinions. Heck, I thrive on them, LOL. What I do have a problem with is Shiftright's response less than a handful of responses afterwards, disagreeing w/his opinion, and then him locking the thread. None of the disagreements were a personal attack of any sort. I'm sorry, his thread locking is pure rubbish in my book and furthermore, worthy of a timeout for the him as a moderator. He went well beyond the call of duty in my opinion. In fact, I would like nothing more than to log a personal complaint.
Stephen
what good would it do to log a personal complaint? I'd be surprised if the hosts are paid, and if so much of anything worthwhile. I've seen value in Shifty in the past, and disagreed with him in the past (I used to hang in Sportscars a lot before the SC came into being). He is definitely human, and definitely better here than not.
Live and let live.
-Colin
The Moderators have a lot to sift through, so I cut them some slack on stuff like that. Like I said, we weren't really discussing anything meaningful, so perhaps the topic already had its full run.
-juice
Yeah, I could open a new thread just to have it shut down. I mean, if I saw nothing wrong with the snob comment as a means of discussion then it doesn't bode very well for me to start a thread now does it?
Yes, yes, I know about the moderators and the difficult job they have. I agree totally with that. It doesn't mean that I let things go by that have the power to set bad precedents. Sorry, won't stay mum when I feel strongly. Not in my heritage anyway, LOL!!!
Anyhow, just by sharing, I can let go and move on.
Stephen
Ross
-mike
Stephen (I know...I said I was moving on...)
-juice
I guess it has to do with brand perceptions in different countries to an extent, but I can't really get excited about BMW. They are passably acceptable to drive although I get more excitement out of the Holden Commodore.
When I lived in the UK, one of my favourite entertainments was counting the BMWs per ten miles buried backwards in snow drifts when the weather turned nasty. There is actually a logical reason in that a BMW is the aspirational car you buy after you have made it beyond a front drive hatch (usually in that era, a MkII Golf GTi). The drivers are often highly driven, aspirational types who are conscious of their image. That hard driven aspect translates into risk taking behaviour such as driving fast and not necessarilly asessing the risks correctly, Experience with front drive hatches educates such drivers that you can press on regardless even in slush/ice on a motorway. If in doubt, accelerate. When the same strategy is tried in a rear wheel drive vehicle, the driven wheels attempt to overtake the undriven, with logical consequences. There is always pleasure in schadenfreude!
Whilst BMW make lovely cars, the motivations of many of the drivers did not relate to the capabilities of the vehicles. It was a function of how they felt the should be percieved. Much of the motivation for purchasing a car is built around how it makes us feel. For most drivers of large 4WDs, the motivation has little, or nothing, to do with actually needing the functionality. It has more to do with projecting an image of "outdoors, tough, recreation". Most have never been off bitumen and for many, there is uncertainty over what low ratio means. However, there are exceptions. My sister and brother in law are seriously into back woods travel and he uses his Landcruiser as a radio base for his Ham Radio activities. It is used seriously every week. In line with this, the vehicle is well set up, based around a plain white low spec diesel but with considerable modification (locking diffs, external wheel carrier, steel bumbers etc.).
By extension, drivers of Subarus have a perception of themselves as factual analytical types who recognize the benefits of the Subaru for them. I am however amused to discovee that in Australia Subarus are "aspirational" being desired by much of the population who percieve them as a discrete status symbol, implying that "I've made it".
Returning to BMWs. They are certainly competent vehicles, well designed, and in the higher spec performance models, pretty exciting to drive (yes, I have driven M3 and M5). Here in Australia, they (three series in particular) are very popular with the middle class mums who drop their children at school in the flasher suburbs. Also very popular with hairdressers and manicurists. Somehow, I can't see me driving one. I'd have to dye my hair blonde!
Cheers
Graham
Interesting to find that Subarus are considered status cars in Australia. Your analysis of them would seem to fit for US drivers. I suspect there could be a form of reverse snobbery with Subaru owners as well. (I'm engaging in self-analysis here as I recall that the last non-Subaru I looked at before buying the Forester was an Audi A4 Avant.) With the advent of the WRX here we now have a demographic that seeks to indulge its WRC racer fantasies. I admit freely that I have become more attracted to Subarus as performance cars rather than the utilitarian, all-round-all-weather car I was originally seeking. (Having both is a bonus!)
BTW, my wife drove a Commodore on a trip to Australia a few years back. She's not a car enthusiast but enjoyed the drive.
Ed
how would you react if a BMW owner opined that he liked a WRX but couldn't get over the low-budget plastic interior and boy-racer appeal?
sitting on the outside, that type of comment might technically have some merit, as does your "snob appeal" bit. they might be statements you could back up with real data, surveys perhaps.
nevertheless it's inflammatory and I again affirm that while Shifty's response was heavy handed I don't feel it was misplaced.
-Colin
Sorry, but I totally think Shiftright was out of line with the thread locking and that is my beef pure and simple! Once again Ross put my experiences of Shiftright's moderating in perfect description: "I find his BEHAVIOUR extremely authoritarian and arbitrary"
Stephen
Could not respond @ work; IT put up another set of firewalls blocking anything that has java scripts.
Anyway, I did read somewhere in the manual that routes could be plotted in the computer and then uploaded to the StreetPilot III. As of todate, I've not attempted it. Maybe one day when I have the time and am not lazy.
-Dave
Of course, there was little meaningful discourse going on when the plug was pulled.
Steve
That's all I'm going to say and I respectfully request that discussion of other hosts activity be dropped.
If you wish to express your concerns about a host or the way the Town Hall is managed, please do so by sending an email to myself (karen@edmunds.com) and Sylvia, Town Hall Advisor/Interim Community Manager (sylvia@edmunds.com).
Thanks for your cooperation.
:-)
I didn't actually read the BMW thread, although I know a few elitists myself.
One is a former boss that I see on my commuter bus to work.
She drives a 3-series wagon and told me the new Baja looked nice. She said it lists for US$25K, and optioned out is close to $30K. I said, "But that's sticker." She replied, "Yeah, but I could never pay that for a ... "(stopped herself as if she didn't want to offend me). :-)
Oops, I shouldn't throw more fuel onto the fire.
-Dennis
-mike