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Comments
Why did I know paisan would be around whenever there is controversy? ;-)
Go drive a 325i. They're not all that, especially for the price and size. The 330i is a different story, but it's also not in the same price range as most competitors, and most competitors are also roomier.
-juice
-mike
It's kind of like that gun-loving cop in Police Academy that missed that shoot out. :-)
Sorry, stupid 80s movie flashback.
-juice
Thank, Karen. I just had to get it off my chest and couldn't find the outlet you speak about in the heat of the "moment" and so I shared w/my Soobie brothers and sisters in the ole "Cafe".
Stephen :-)
More volts is sort of like having a bigger hard drive.
You used to be able to fit an entire Word Processor program on a single floppy disk, now it would take several dozen, and most people never even use the newest features.
-juice
From what I understand, it will be available around January or February. It's basically a facelift of the current model, but I expect the new 3.7 V6 from the Liberty to replace the old 4.0 I-6.
Bob
http://forums.i-club.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=263741
Stephen
Liberty is selling well, right? Grand Cherokee isn't, compared to the last generation. It was 2nd in sales for a long time, but Tahoe surpassed it.
But I wonder if it was more an issue of quality control vs. that 3rd seat. I read about a lot of problems with those in Automotive News.
Man, that 4l I6 is old! It's been used since, what, the mid 80s?
OK, I am officially jealous of her getting to rally competitively. But kids are more fun in the long term, right guys? guys? GUYS?
-juice
Ed (loves those independents)
*Yes I know AMC technically exists, having been absorbed into DC. Does this mean that I could get a Hudson serviced at a Mercedes dealer?
Sadly, that engine is no longer made at the Chrysler plant next door. Only v6's, including the engine for the Pacifica.
-Brian
-Colin
AMC sux ;-)
We have the 4.0 in my wife's Jeep.
On the particularly touchy subject of liking a car I didn't think I would - we test drove an Expedition yesterday. This was an XLT 4x4 with leather.
Yeah, it's a behemoth, but it doesn't feel that way from behind the wheel. It actually rides as nicely as a Honda Pilot, and feels no bigger until you try to park. "Handling" is a relative term on these, there's no point even discussing that.
My wife loved it. Much more than any of the vans we tried, including drives of an MPV and Sedona and ride-alongs in my cousin's Odyssey. She says she feels like a geek in the vans, but cool in the big, high-up SUV.
Likes:
Ride - impressive, I expected much worse.
Space - amazing, 3rd row better than vans, more leg room than the 2nd row in my Forester.
Comfort - lazy-boy chairs, huge armrests wide enough to rest a laptop on, wide body.
Interior layout - Ford has this all over GM, not at all trucky
Commanding View - like sitting on the roof of the Forester
Torque - the 5.4l had plenty to spare
Styling - handsome, IMO, better than Explorer, maybe best looking full-sizer
Rims - 17" blingies standard
Power pedals - wife liked these
Dislikes:
Center Seating positions - cramped, really a 2+2+2 for best comfort
3rd seat folding - the non-power ones have no strap to grab, major omission
Size - you don't park, you "dock" this Titanic
Price - $42 grand, *GASP*, and it's not an Eddie Bauer
Plastics - some felt cheap, others were better
Cloth fabric - lint magnet, get the leather
Roof rack - too high, way too high, to actually use
Moonroof - wide, but not nearly long enough, could be twice the size, 3 times even
They had neat vent rings a-la-TT, a nice touch, and no bogus painted metal surfaces, a relief.
We did not try the Eddie Bauer, but the power 3rd seat would be a big plus due to the rather dumb omission of a pull strap on other models. It was quite a reach to raise them up again. That model also has the turn signals in the side mirrors, which are cool.
Though I have to admit - it was my wife's favorite 7 seater by a wide, wide margin. Without question that would have been her choice over any of those vans.
In my case, I would pick the MPV. Just as useful, but half the price and much smaller package.
Bob - you've driven one, right? What do you think of my observations?
-juice
Ed
Your above post is almost a carbon-copy of what I said. It's a very surprising (in a positive way) vehicle.
If you recall, the one I drove was an entry-level 9-passenger XLT, with the front bench seat. I drove it at a 1-price dealer, and their priced was around $33.5K, and it was nicely equipped. The middle of the middle-row seat, can move forward, for easy access to a baby car seat, which is a nice feature.
Sure, there are things you could quibble about (gas mileage!), but all-in-all, a very nice package. I think(?) next year it may get some engine upgrades, and possibly a 5-speed automatic. In '05, it's rumored to get a V6-Powerstroke diesel as an option.
Boy, that's a surprise! What made you go and test one? That's the last vehicle I would think that you would test, as you've never liked "trucks."
Bob
Wife found out about a $75 debit card offer just for going in to drive one. We aren't shopping for a vehicle at all, but I'm curious, and she likes freebies.
But yeah, you busted me!
Bob - I didn't even see a bench seat there. Most were Eddie Bauers. Two XLTs, one cloth, one leather (which we drove). I prefer captain's chairs anyway, in fact they'd be cool in the 2nd row since the center isn't comfy.
Yours may not have been a 4x4 for that price, was it? That's not bad.
The tranny seemed fine, I think it matters much less with a big V8 vs. a boxer 4.
This is the first truck I ever liked (the Pilot isn't a real truck). Shocker, I know.
-juice
Question: is there a center console on the back of the middle seat when you fold it, like the Taurus has?
Go ahead and laugh, guys, but face the sad fact that Ford probably spends more on R&D for their center console that Subaru's entire R&D budget. :-(
-juice
rsholland "Ford Expedition" Jun 17, 2002 9:04pm
As I recall, when you fold the middle section of the 2-row seat down, it folds flush with the outside seat cushions. The neat feature, however, is the ability to move that center section forward, so that you can reach the car seat.
I could be wrong, but I don't think so. And yes, the 3-across front seating uses the same outside seats as the caption's chair models. It's very comfortable and gives you 9-passenger capability. The 4x4 tows over 8000 pounds—standard!
Bob
If only we could get foreign car build quality with american R&D.
-mike
Could you fold the middle front seat forward? I'm curious because for us a center console would be better. That setup in the Taurus is versatile - you can choose between an extra seat or the storage space.
Caveat: it's not the type of car I would even consider driving to work in DC, it's so huge and would feel downright clumsy in city streets. For the suburbs and long trips, though, is a different story.
I didn't even read the MPG because I know it would blow my "20 mpg or better on the city EPA scale" rule out of the water.
Another thought - 4WD seems less important. It's way too huge to really enjoy off road. And the 2WD isn't FWD. Having a Subie to drive in snow, I'm not sure I'd even get 4WD.
Another statement I never thought I'd make. I guess the lesson is, don't knock it 'til you try it.
I guess know at least I have a better understanding of the appeal of these things. Not for me, but for the people that buy them.
-juice
PS hey paisan - I bet if my wife had driven a Trooper after all, that she might have wanted it!
Only the Sequioa would "pass" that stringent test, and it has much less useful interior space and is expensive for its size, IMO.
Realistically, $42 grand? Get out of town. The cloth, like I said, was a lint magnet, so the street price would be $35 grand at least.
That makes a used one almost mandatory. Resale value plunges, they had a '99 for $19 grand before even dealing. A used one with an extended warranty, maybe, but I'd definitely get a 2003 in a couple of years, not the previous generation.
Not that we'll get one. The wife said "if we had a 3rd kid...", but that's not gonna happen either. I'm just not willing to make all those sacrifices.
-juice
-mike
I'm not sure. Isn't there a picture in the brochure?
<< For the suburbs and long trips, though, is a different story. >>
Yep, that's where it shines.
<< I didn't even read the MPG because I know it would blow my "20 mpg or better on the city EPA scale" rule out of the water. >>
Well, at least you'd be still in double digits, but barely...
<< Another thought - 4WD seems less important. It's way too huge to really enjoy off road. And the 2WD isn't FWD. Having a Subie to drive in snow, I'm not sure I'd even get 4WD. >>
In close quarters off-road, I would agree with you. I'd definitely get 4WD, if only for the resale value. If you didn't get it, I'm sure you would kick yourself sometime down the road (or off-road).
<< Another statement I never thought I'd make. I guess the lesson is, don't knock it 'til you try it. >>
I couldn't have said it better.
<< I guess know at least I have a better understanding of the appeal of these things. Not for me, but for the people that buy them. >>
Yeah, but Lana like it...
What prompted you to test drive one?
Bob
Bob
Lana didn't like it, she loved it. For a while there the salesman tried to corner me, even had the manager come out and blah-blah-blah about how he could work out a great deal for us.
That's another thing I hated - I bought my Escort there back in '91 and there was lots of pressure, at least at this dealership (next to Montgomery Mall, is it Ourisman I think?).
I asked and she said she would rank it 2nd on the list of cars we test drove and seriously considered, so it would be:
1. Legacy (hers)
2. Expedition
3. CR-V
4. Camry
5. Highlander
Hated: all the vans
But, with 3 kids the Expedition would have taken the top spot.
I'd rank it differently:
1. Legacy
2. Highlander
3. Expedition
4. CR-V
5. Camry
Though I can't say I disliked any of them. With 3 kids I'd put the MPV first, then Odyssey, then Expedition (factoring price/mileage), then Pilot. Something like that.
-juice
On the Expedition, I'd get the 4wd also, having a system that can be used on dry is nice, especially in rain in an SUV.
-mike
Around here, though, diesel is expensive, mostly the customers are Mercedes Benz 300D owners.
-juice
In any event, that should make the Expedition a 20+ mpg vehicle, with excellent torque.
Bob
-mike
Bob
I was definitely surprised. I guess it's like her pregnancy - large and in charge!
paisan: yeah, but I use 87 octane on all my cars. Diesel actually does fluctuate less though, in terms of pricing. Gas goes up/down much more, at least here.
No Bob, I did not notice the two harnesses. That's odd, I thought they'd just provide an adaptor or something. I did notice the sturdy built-in hitch, though.
-juice
Kinda like I have no problem driving the SVX pumping premium into it since it gets 19mpg city and 27 on the highway which is way higher than the 12mpg on the trooper and 17max on the highway.
-mike
Kidding! I'd actually have to work double time to pay for gas! LOL
paisan: heck yeah, I'd be intested in a hyper efficient boxer diesel if Subaru offered one. In fact that's really what I think Isuzu should become - a diesel engineering shop for all of GM and their partners.
-juice
Bob
Actually it doesn't.
-juice
Hee hee hee. Do you miss desk jobs Loosh? (probably not).
Ken
http://motioncars.com/autobuzz/articles24/2003_subaru_impreza.html
Isuzu & GM
http://just-auto.com/news_detail.asp?art=39355&dm=yes
Isuzu to pull out of SIA! Will Subaru take over the whole plant?
http://www.autonews.com/news.cms?newsId=3759
http://www.autonews.com/news.cms?newsId=3552
Toyota plans ALL their vehicles will be gas-electric hybrids by 2012! This is BIG news! You can bet Honda and others won't be sitting still either...
http://www.auto.com/industry/iwird25_20021025.htm
No beating around the bush about what GM wanted all along: "complete ownership of Duramax".
So SIA will become just SA? But they say production of their SUVs will be outsourced to Subaru.
This makes we want to hurl, though, "procuring vehicles with 2.5-liter engines from its top shareholder, General Motors". What, the Isuzu pickup will use GM engines?` So we get an Ascendor and that? Why should they even continue to exist, then?
Dunno about that Toyota story, Bob. The Prius hasn't exactly lit up the charts, and Honda is cleaning their clock with the Civic Hybrid. Plus, those forecasts always get pushed back. I'll bet you a cold one that it won't happen. Loser buys the beer at the 2012 New York Auto Show.
-juice
-mike
-mike
As you know I'm a big fan of trucks and SUVs; not because they are fun to drive, but because they are so darn useful. I've always felt guilty about the fuel mileage, however. If Toyota can pull this off, I can see much of my "guilt" of owning such beasts as disappearing. I bet many others, who are on the fence deciding, will feel the same way too.
I bet 42 volt electrical systems will play a big part in this too.
BTW, this wasn't the only link I saw on this topic this morning, so there must be some credibility to it.
Bob
It's kind of like the Pilot LX, I've only seen one so far. Almost all are EXs.
I'm not disputing whether Toyota is making that claim, just whether or not they'll implement that plan.
I think some mpg estimates are very optimistic, though. Test drivers don't usually meet the EPA figures for fuel misers. Plus, you get a percentage increase in gas mileage. It may give 70% better mileage. But 70% better than 10 mpg is still just 17mpg.
The other thing is cost, a Prius is $20 grand. A Corolla costs $4 grand less. Unless the government offers bigger incentives to own one, I can't see paying that stiff penalty. $4 grand would buy a lifetime supply of gas.
-juice
Bob