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Comments
Show me a FULL Size SUV that is reasonably priced and available. There are none. Zippo. Nada. Can you order em with vinyl and no AC? Nope, Can you get em with no radio? Nope. Can you get em even modestly equipped? rarely.
I used to also disagree with the cell phone while driving law, but then I realized that just because I can drive with a cell phone and not smack into people doesn't mean the average driver can.
Yep I like my Trooper, but if I could have bought a new full-size Ramcharger-like SUV for ~$20-22K I would have jumped on that in a heartbeat. The cheapest full-sized SUVs are in the Mid-high $30K range.
-mike
If I didn't offroad, I'd have an AWD Van cause it's capabilities are more in line with what I use it for. I'm all for practical rather than the "I have an SUV I'm macho/richer/elite" which is what most people buy SUVs for.
-mike
Hey times change, and so does the marketplace. If you you want a back-to-basics SUV, move to South Africa or Australia, or buy a Jeep Wrangler.
Bob
Yeah Yeah free economy... I hate when my own ideas bite me in the butt!
On a side note I loved the Previa AWD SC.
-mike
Why don't you post that over in some of the Jeep forums, and see what kind of response you get.
As to a FULL-SIZE bare-bones SUV, if the carmakers thought there was money to be made making one, you can bet they would be doing so.
Bob
I know for a fact that you could with the first-generation Expedition (not sure about the current one), because I sat in one at a Ford dealer a couple of years ago. I will say, they were hard to find—because nobody (except maybe you) wants one.
Bob
According to Edmunds there are only 4 option packages for the LE (adding up to almost $4,000), none of which I personally would want. So for me, the MSRP would be $28,385 and invoice $25,596 for an AWD LE Sienna. It will be interesting to see how many LE's are produced with AWD. I have a bad feeling Toyota will build mostly high margin XLE AWD's and stick the LE's with FWD.
-Eric
(staying out of the SUV debate)
The dealer I was at said pretty much the same thing. He indicated That LEs with AWD may be hard to find.
Bob
http://141.157.157.99/DodgeTruck/DodgeRamchargers.html
Too bad they're not sold here - would make better sense than the Durango. Something about safety and emissions standards maybe?
Ed
-juice
http://www.crosslander4x4.com/toc/
Starting under $20k with 4WD, and it looks big enough to me.
You can also expect circa 1960s quality control and refinement, of course. Not too many soccer moms will buy these! LOL
-juice
I needed and wanted the large vehicle, but couldn't find it on any lot without all the bells and whistles and in THOSE days lots of them were being customized ...
and I might have to agree with both sides of the discussion ... the 'free market' .. but also those 'soccer moms' want all the 'comforts of home' .. and that's the way they hit the sales lots .. tough to find the space/capabilities of the large vehicle without all the 'frills' ...
And my niece complains that her truck cannot make turns when in 4WD (not understanding the concept of full and part time AWD/4WD). The salesman sold her a bill of goods, and like most uninformed Americans, went for the image of 'go anywhere' without a clue as to what she was buying.
Yesterday, one of my co-workers (with a Jeep Gnd Cherokee) ask me 100 questions about both the OBW and the vans. Said the wife was tired of the truck ride. I see many converts coming...
Steve
Bob
Bob- You’re comparing apples and oranges. Back in the 80s when the SUV market consisted mainly of Cherokees and Broncos, both were reasonably priced and were no-frills models ideally suited for off-road use. The way I see it, the manufacturers are capitalizing on the economies of scale by maximizing their profits rather than passing on the cost savings. I'm sure you'll agree that the light truck market is the cash cow of the auto industry. Which is the main reason they ferociously fight any attempt to repeal or modify any of the numerous emission and safety regulation exemptions that were enacted for these supposed "work" vehicles.
-Frank P.
Bob
Hey, Mike...whoda thunkit? You're practically a convert ;-)
Interesting conversation...
btw, it's "Don't Like SUVs", no hate in there ;-)
Shouldn't the lemmings be able to read the roll-over warnings on the door?
How many of us have pressed on the brakes harder when you lose traction in snow, ice, wet or curves?
Instinct. It'll take a bit of time and mental adjustments.
Off-road the Wrangler is great, but try to take one on a 2000 mile trip, I bet the 3 other people riding with you would rather ride in a yugo! hee hee
-mike
If you are like my sister-in-law and live in a warm, crowded southern city, a minvan or crossover will give you plenty of utility and even better safety for your family of 4 than any full sized SUV will.
Steve
Witness the popularity of the Nissan Xterra, and the recent debut of the Honda Element, both of which are being marketed as "no-frills" vehicles. Granted, these may not be everybody's idea of what a bare-bones SUV should be, but it does indicate that at least two carmakers are paying attention. Also, there are strong rumors that Toyota will also offer something shortly to go head-to-head with the Xterra.
Does this mean there will be a ground-swell movement towards these types of vehicles? I doubt it, but it does indicate there is some interest. However, I don't think you will ever see, here in North America, a return to 1980-type of SUVs. Ain't gonna happen...
Bob
I agree there will likely not be a return to the 80s style UTILITY vehicles like the Bronco/Blazer/Ramcharger, oh well what you gonna do? I guess I'll have to comfort myself by installing my ARB bumper this weekend hee hee
-mike
Bob
-Dennis
-mike
Bob
-mike
Bob
The 80s style SUVs were mostly 2 doors, remember. When the 4 doors came out, families starting the huge wave of SUV popularity.
In my decidedly unscientific study, I saw mostly full-size GM and Ford trucks on the beach, although the Trooper was definitely in the top 5. I think I've seen one XTerra, that's about it.
Unlike Bob, I don't see a wave of back-to-basics SUVs becoming popular. The reason for the XTerra's and Element's sales success is very simple - price. The XTerra costs less than a Pathfinder (finally being updated, and getting a lot bigger) and the Element costs less than a CR-V.
-juice
Almost zero Pathys, X-terras, Libertys out there.
-mike
-mike
-Colin
Sorry if I missed something, but...how is that the "right" direction? I understand the notion that the SUV's popularity as a gussied up family vehicle has made it harder to find a "basic" SUV, and if you mean "right direction for those looking for a basic SUV", then I would agree. But the market is going the other way, towards car-based SUVs. Truck based SUVs still outsell car based, but that's because the Explorer and Trailblazer (together owning about 14% of the SUV market) still use ladder frames.
And I agree that, compared to most SUVs selling today, the Xterra is very basic...and sells "well" because of its price. Still...CR-Vs, Libertys and Escapes are each outselling the Xterra 2:1 or more.
Keep the rear coils, ABS, Auto-4wd. Ditch the msg center, hanging overhead bin, leather, rear A/C, rear radio, and sell it for say $25K?
-mike
Ignore those, and it's far better than the old Bronco II ever was, at least for most people.
-juice
But it still sells for about 35K...it's hard to imagine getting it down another $10K by getting rid of the rest of that stuff.
In that price range, sounds like you really want a Blazer. Or maybe an Aztek ;-)
Ken
They aren't full size. No 7500lb+ towing, no Frame, no real 4wd, no V8 power. Etc. etc.
Yukon isn't a built up Tahoe, the base Yukon and Tahoe are the same IIRC. They all have gagetry and electronic crappola!
Heck even take out the Auto-4wd and leave a PT system.
And none come in 2-door SWB models.
-mike
-mike
Yes, that's what I mean, and there will always be a market for a back-to-basics SUV, despite the popularity of the crossovers.
Bob
No low range in sight. I'm not sure it's an SUV at all, maybe a crossover microvan.
The XTerra maybe, but price out a high-end model.
I do think there is a market for a low priced SUV, sure.
-juice
Bob
The Element is an unconventional as they come, not what I would call no-frills or back-to-basics.
When you say that I think Vitara, Sportage, Tracker, XTerra, etc. Basically vehicles similar to what was available a decade ago.
Maybe you're thinking in terms of a base DX, no A/C, hose-out interior. But I bet 80% are EX models.
-juice
Bob
-juice
The only thing more basic might be an ATV or a John Deere.
Bob
No bumpers. No carpets. Vinyl seats. No real interior trim. Steelies. Rear drums. No bed liner. Non-opening rear window. Manual windows and locks.
We are talking the legal bare minimum to qualify as a bare-bones truck.
That kind of stuff. I believe even the Element DX has all the power stuff, doesn't it?
-juice
It was such a letdown, because I still really like the XTerra, just not for the money. Out of consideration for fuel economy I shopped Subaru and was quite surprised with what $23K bought compared to Nissan. Sure, I can't get very far offroad in my Outback, but that's why I mountain bike. I don't need to drive to see offroad.
If the XTerra were priced in the low-$20K range (excluding the useless 4cyl/2wd combo) I'd be more impressed with the package.
Brian