Subaru Crew Cafe

oregonboy

Bravo for low-line, entry level models! Some people PREFER simpler, less expensive vehicles. Properly configured does not have to include power: mirrors, locks, and seats, leather, moon roof, fog lights, alloy wheels, power folding rear seats.... where does it stop?

Ok, I admit that I DO like some of the conveniences, but do you all remember the advertising line: simple, and "build to stay that way"?

By the way, great that Toyota has gone to std rear disks on the Rav. Perhaps the Forester X will follow suit.

james

jfl

Touche. Valid point.

Jim

rsholland

Discounting the Impreza-based Outback Sport, 5 of the 8 Outbacks offered here have the H-6 engine: 2.5 Outback wagon, 2.5 Outback Limited Wagon, 2.5 Outback Limited sedan, 3.0 Outback sedan, 3.0 Outback VDC sedan, 3.0 35th Anniversary Outback wagon, 3.0 LL Bean Outback wagon, and the 3.0 VDC Outback wagon. Even if you discount the slow selling Outback sedans, 3 out of 5 Outback wagons offered are H-6s.

So maybe the H-6 isn't the sales failure as claimed by some. If it were, they wouldn't offer so many models, I would think.

Bob

dcm61

would be a break down of sales by trim line. I bet the H4's outsell the H6 models by a wiiiide margin.

I would guess the pecking order would be Base wagon, Limited wagon, L.L. Bean, Base H6 wagon.

DaveM

rsholland

Stopped by a dealer today and picked an '04 Legacy brochure; still no '04 Outback or '04 Baja brochures...

I noticed there was no mention anywhere inside the brochure about a base Legacy L. No pictures. No text. No specs. However, the single page color/upholstery sheet did indicate the base L model (?). Must have been a typo that slipped though. Even the SOA website, under "What's New" didn't list the base Legacy L.

Bob

ateixeira

CR-V also has rear discs (but oddly no ABS std), I think Sante Fe or at least one other competitor also has them standard. At this point Subaru should phase out drums completely, IMO. How can you even pretend to be upscale and still offer drum brakes?

A year after the H6 intro, total combined sales were down. I very seriously doubt the H4 sales fell more than 50%. Think about it. They probably make up 30% of sales, maybe 40%. I guess we could ask Patti.

-juice

paisan

You do realize that a "stripped" down model that you have to order will cost more than buying a higher-line model off the lot right? Dealers will always order one for you but you'll pay more $ or wait like 9 million years to get it.

-mike

p0926

Not necessarily Mike. I ordered my Forester exactly the way I wanted it and actually got a slight price break. It arrived 7 weeks later right when it was suppose to. Of course most dealers aren't that accomdating and for sure, you're not going to find a stripped model on the lot.

-Frank P.

paisan

There are exceptions, like i ordered my '00 Trooper w/o any options it was as stripped as the LS model came and I had to wait 7-8 weeks also.
but in general if you want a stripped model, you can probably negotiate a better one from "the lot" than ordering a stripped down one.

-mike

ateixeira

Depends - I think the dealer actually gets more of a holdback is a car has spent less time on the lot. They basically pay interesting on unsold cars, something like that. It's really convoluted.

The catch? You have it time it right to get incentives on a new model you order. For instance, you can't get a 2003 Forester and it's big incentives because they are making 2004s already.

-juice

lark6

Well the missus and I went out on Saturday to test drive cars. We only got through the Volvo dealership before everyone got tired and had other work to be done. We ended up driving a base model S60, an S60 2.5T (not AWD), and an XC90 2.5T.

The base S60 is woefully underpowered; the 2.5T is slightly better than adequate and has good passing punch but noticeable torque steer. Steering is pretty heavy by my standards; the 2.5T apparently is available with speed-sensitive power steering which would help it a bit. Our biggest issue was with interior space; it's pretty cramped, especially laterally in the front footwells. There's less space up there than in her Accord and my Forester. The XC90 was plenty roomy but we had outward visibility problems. Power with the 2.5T was adequate (ironically the same powerplant as in the S60; I guess the 5-speed AT helps) but it could still use some help. Seats in all three extremely comfortable, a Volvo hallmark.

They were fine enough but a bit lacking in some places. I guess it's good for Volvo they've brought out the R-series cars because these weren't anything for the enthusiast.

Next week: The Toyota Highlander, Honda Pilot, and the H6 Outbacks (which my wife has somewhat reluctantly agreed to test) - that is, if we're not washed out by the hurricane.

Ed

ateixeira

Better yet, drive them in the heavy downpours. See which one gives her the most confidence.

VTM4 shuts off above 19mph. VTD doesn't.

Volvo's wagons are so much better than their sedans, they are much roomier.

-juice

joybell

How did you get a stripped down Forester? I wanted one with no cruise control, no fog lights, no A/C, no electric mirrors or electric windows, no cd/weatherband, and with vinyl floors... Not possible, I was told.

rsholland

I guess it depends on one's description of "stripped down." To many the current (base) Forester X is a stripped down car. No, it's not as stripped down as an Ford F-150 XL with rubber floor covering and roll-up windows, but it's still stripped down in comparison to other Foresters.

Bob

rsholland

The '04 Highlander now has the 3.3 engine from the Sienna, and a Pilot-like 3rd-row rear seat.

Bob

lark6

Third-row seating isn't on the want list, neither is the towing package. I noticed in the 'Forester v. Highlander' thread that you commented on Toyota's inclination to force the buyer into a number of options they don't necessarily want. That could be a deterrent.

Ed

rsholland

I agree. I really don't like the way Toyota packages their vehicles. You often have to buy a much higher trim level to get something simple like heated seats.

Bob

p0926

Monica- You don't (other than the X model as Bob pointed out). My reference to a stripped down model was directed towards other manufacturer's offerings. Sorry to get your hopes up :-)

-Frank P.

kens

Ed: Let us know how the Highlander test drive goes. My wife likes that vehicle and is saying she wants it after her Jetta.

When the Forester first came out there was a base model below the "L" trim. I don't know if anyone was able to order it, though.

Ken

paisan

I'll gladly come up and remove the parts you don't like from your forester for free

-mike

lark6

He's been after me to do the same thing for his L racer. ;-)

Ed

paisan

jlemole

Juice, Bob: I'll be in your neck of the woods this weekend (sort of...). We've got a christening to attend in Salisbury, Maryland. My wife and I will be the proud god-parents! We actually get down that way quite a bit since my wife's brother lives there. I think we'll take the Outback since I'm trying to keep down the miles on our leased Quest. Taking the Cape May Ferry this time too in order to avoid the huge crowds around Dover, Delaware this weekend (NASCAR). Now, as long as Isabel doesn't throw a wrench into the whole plan....

Jon

ateixeira

Bob - saw that in C&D. Both the Highlander and the 4Runner now offer a 3rd row. I bet the 4Runner has them on the floor like the GX470, but with even less headroom. I'm curious to see the ones on the HL though.

Ed: you gotta donate something to Franken L. ;-)

That's on the Eastern Shore, you'll get the tail end of rain from that storm coming up the coast.

-juice

rsholland

is a 2-hour drive from my place. Hope Isabel doesn't screw up your plans. It could well affect ferry schedules. Salisbury is a 1/2 hour from the ocean, and likely will take a big hit.

Bob

ateixeira

Keep an eye on the weather channel. We're going to Tucson, AZ, on Thurday afternoon, but might leave early to avoid the storm.

Which reminds me, any suggestions for things to do in Tucson? We'll be there from 9/18 until 9/23 for a wedding, and should have at least 1-2 days free.

-juice

damish003

Hey Juice, you'll find that Tucson is just a BEAUTIFUL place, but it's going to be pretty warm this time of year. If you're into hiking, you'll find many places for that. Either early morning, or late afternoon, not in mid-day. Rule #1 in a desert climate...keep water with you at all times. And I mean, all times. Don't wait till you're thirsty, even if you're not exerting yourself. Trust me on this one...my wife got seriously dehydrated the first time out there, and has learned the lesson well. If you're into stargazing, you'll find the skies are extremely clear for it. Go horseback riding. There are several places north of the city for that, up Oracle Rd. If forget the name of it, but ask about the Mission for some terrific sightseeing. Something "Bac" mission. Bring a camera, lots of film. If you go into the hills, I hope you can find a Subie for a rental. With the twists and turns, that would be a blast! Also, the Titan Missile Museum is a must see. One of the only, if not the only, museums with an actual Titan missile still in the silo. You can sit in the command chair and be behind the controls of a relic of the Cold War era. Kind of spooky, if you really think about it. Remember, always have water with you. Where are you going to be staying?

-Dan-

ladywclass

it's truly deceptive in a "dry" climate just how fast you can become dehydrated ...
when daughter and i moved from humid, tropical Houston to high and dry Dallas ... we had to watch our water intake ... in Houston you sweat and it just clings to you so that you REALIZE you are losing fluids ... in Dallas it evaporates so fast it's easy to FORGET how fast you are losing them ...
even more so in the desert ..

paisan

Does this mean you will be around on the 27th!!!!

The Subaru Challenge is being held on the 27th in Richmond and Team IAC is heading down friday the 26th for the free SOA dinner and auto-x on saturday! You have to come out man!!!!

http://subaruchallenge.com

-mike

PS: I thought the wedding was that weekend

kens

juice,

Just keep driving west until you hit California!

Ken

ladywclass

driving through indiana ???? lol

lark6

I designed a simple paint scheme for Franken L which paisan liked and may use. Two Subaru factory colors, one of which is already on the car, and judicious use of colored vinyl appliques will give the car a distinctive look.

Ed

paisan

Once she is all finished mechanically, one of team members is an artist and her dad actually has a paint gun, so we'll be having a paint the Franken-L day/weekend

-mike

lark6

Maybe I can come up and help lay some decals or vinyl for you - unless you have someone like Lee doing it (or if it's in December in which case I'm on dad watch).

I'll have to do a bigger drawing than the one I gave you originally. We still have to work out how the edges of the vinyl will look (smooth or jagged edges, etc.) If anyone knows where I can find a 2D line drawing of an old-school Impreza 2-door (like an L, 2.5RS or WRC car) please let me know.

Ed

paisan

Probably will be actually painting it sometime in the spring, so no rush on it.

We are gonna do the intial paint job, and then add lots of little items, like a picture of the IAC Thong drapped from the gas-cover

-mike

ateixeira

They actually offer Outback rentals, but we really need a mininvan - 5 passengers and lots of luggage. The nanny is coming with us. My wife thinks "Pack Light" is a backpack made by LL Bean. :-)

I'm reading about that military air plane grave yard, sounds spooky/cool. Mount Lemmon sounds neat. There's a children's museum too, anyone familiar with those spots?

Can't really do much hiking with a baby, but we'll do some sightseeing. I notice everything there is outdoor focused.

paisan: turns out it's on the 20th, so yeah, we'll be back. Can I keep a 4 year old entertained there?

-juice

c_hunter

I was thinking about stopping by the Richmond Challenge, assuming I can get time off for good behavior from the wife. So, maybe I will get to watch you guys run. Sounds like it will be a cool day. If I had more auto-X experience and my WRX wasn't so new, I would enter. I think I will be better off as a spectator this time!

Craig

paisan

C'mon down. Just look for the primer Impreza, bluer 00 RS and silver WRX. We'll have my trooper with my trailer and a few tents and an Astro with a trailer

-mike

rsholland

gets a 3.8L engine. One would assume that will be coming Stateside for '04 or '05.

http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mellor.nsf/story2/613BD98E0CA7FB7- ACA256DA20010F76F

Bob

rsholland

http://www.autonews.com/news.cms?newsId=6445

rsholland

according to NY Times article. For complete writeup go to the Times or that "other site."

Here's the car and company:

http://www.acpropulsion.com/

Bob

ateixeira

Bob - doesn't it already have the 3.8l here? Wait, my 2002 buyer's guide says 3.5l, so it is upgraded.

The Solara coupe is certainly a lot more daring than the last one. They look better in person than in photos.

Saw one when I went to test drive an MR2. Nothing else to do with no power, so why not?

MR2 was fun, but I felt like I was sitting in a bath tub. Cowl is way too high, doors too. Can't rest my arms on the door tops, you can barely see out and I'm 6 feet tall!

I drove the Sequential Manual Gearbox, a 6 speed with an automatic clutch. It starts in 1st and reverse very smoothly, but shifts feel very unnatural. It drops off the throttle abruptly and you feel engine braking, even in full throttle acceleration. Feels like the car is stalling, it's awful.

Beyond that, it's tight and more quiet than I expected. Cargo space it nil, you can fit your wife's purse and that may be it. I could forgive that, because I have the Subie.

But still, with the sitting-in-a-bathtub feel, it is much less open than my Miata. There is less wind, sure, but less fun too. It's quick enough and 25/33 mpg is excellent for the performance, but I'm still not giving up my Miata for one of those. I'd prefer another Miata, actually.

Also drove a RAV4, this to drive to the remote parking lot to get to the MR2. That engine feels buzzy, with auto it's also a little slow. 5 speed ought to be decent, but the 2.4l is long overdue, I say.

The rear seat is so narrow. It's also more of a 4 seater since the rear seat is split, I can't imagine having to sit in the center for long.

It feels tall and tippy, too. But you sit so high that visibility is awesome, opposite of the MR2.

So, both are nice, but I wouldn't buy either one.

-juice

lark6

I spent the bulk of my weekend working in the yard, cleaning up downed limbs and branches, leaves and pine straw and what seemed like at least 1000 pinecones. Between it all I managed to clean myself up enough to go out with my wife on a test drive of an '04 Pilot EX with leather.

It was...not bad. Good visibility, very good layout of controls and switchgear. A nice big center console and plenty of storage space. Third-row seating is mandatory but at least it folds inobtrusively out of the way. Seats comfy enough but not on a par with the Volvo XC90 we drove last weekend. Good power for on-ramp and passing maneuvers. Handles about as I expected; not bad but ponderous compared to all the current cars in the household. After driving the Pilot, my Forester felt like a sports car.

Although it's a little bigger than she'd like, my wife felt the Pilot was a vehicle she "could live with." Combine that with her long-term success with her Accord and the Pilot is back on her radar. We did not get to the Highlander as none of the dealers in our area had any '04s in stock. Based on her research (and she HAS started looking at Edmund's, so maybe I'd better watch my posts!) she sees that the '04s will be improved over the '03s. Unfortunately, the Outback is off her list - too small, she says. That echoes the sentiments of many out here.

So it looks like whatever the outcome we will not be a two-Subie household. As for me, except for the fact that I have hobbies that involve hauling things, I'd consider biting the bullet, going on a strict diet, relearning to drive stick and buying myself a WRX STi next go 'round. The hauling part keeps me looking at the XT and thinking about the next Legacy wagon.

Ed

ateixeira

After driving the Pilot, my Forester felt like a sports car.

My sentiments exactly. I'm hoping the new Subaru doesn't feel as big.

Sounds like she'd take the Pilot if she had to, but that's not exactly a ringing endorsement. Try a Highlander and a few others. Maybe a Murano or an Endeavor. At that price she'd better love it.

-juice

lark6

She's not an enthusiast, juice; likes to think of herself as the more logical and practical of us two. I'm the nutty, raving iconoclast.

Friends have a Murano; it might be worth a look for her. I really do not like them (CVT, bad blind spots, 21st-century AMC Gremlin styling) but it's not my decision. Mitsubishi (a/k/a "Bitsaremissing" as I've heard them called recently) lacks the quality reputation of the Honda/Toyota/Subaru triumvirate so that's doubtful as well. Makes me wonder whether people who favor the Lancer Evo over the WRX STi even think about long-term reliability and build quality.

Ed

ateixeira

Hope you like the Highlander! ;-)

If we end up meeting up tomorrow, we could go test drive one, LOL.

-juice

rsholland

than the Pilot. I'm sure the Subie crossover will NOT be as sporty as a Forester.

Bob

ateixeira

Well, I'd be happy with Murano levels of sportiness. I just don't want to see a big boat, at least not in feel.

Of course my wife might be perfectly happy with that. Sound familiar Ed?

-juice

p0926

Ed- Could you tell me again what your wife's criteria are for the new vehicle?

-Frank P.

lark6

I wish I could, Frank, but it's very hard to pin down. A two-box vehicle with enough cargo capacity to mobilize a family of three, one of whom has yet to be born, without putting anything on the roof. Enough power for on-ramp and passing maneuvers. Lots o' airbags, front and side. It must have an automatic transmission. Good safety ratings, including rollover ratings, impress her. She also wants to buy a make that has good resale value.

After that it gets very subjective. She doesn't want a minivan or a station wagon. The vehicle has to be larger than anything in the current Subaru lineup. She doesn't want leather seats, but would like to have heated front seats (envies those in my Forester). She would prefer that at least the driver's seat has power adjustments. She wants to have an in-vehicle DVD entertainment system for our child, but doesn't need one from the factory; as she expects it will be a couple of years before he will have an interest, the system can be aftermarket. She does not want third-row seating unless it cannot be avoided (e.g., the Pilot).

I can't always tell where styling fits in her priorities. She doesn't seem to mind bland as long as it's not outright ugly or controversial.

I am trying to get her to sit down and put together a list of the need to have/want to have/nice to have/don't need or wants, but that's tough.

Ed