Honda Civic Hybrid

john1701a

> Those hybrid numbers aren't too far off what I was able to get with my regular Civic.

So... are you going to tell people how much smaller a 6 year old vehicle was than a new one is now?

The fact alone that vehicle size has increased indicates that MPG would have dropped.

JOHN

bamacar

Yes, it grew .2 inches from 98 to 04. Engines continue to get more efficient, and the Civic EX Auto Sedan has gone from 35/28 in 98 to 38/30 in 2004. He should be able to do better with a non-Hybrid Civic today than with is slightly smaller old model. MPG is up..up..up.

isellhondas

Sorry, but carpeted (nice) floot mats are STANDARD on Civic EX's.

I don't know how you accomplish that kind of mileage but I think I would hate to be behind you on an onramp!

lngtonge18

ROFL!! My god, I can just imagine the angry Atlanta drivers whipping around him. Driving around that city is flat out dangerous if you do the speed limit let alone under it. Hopefully he is curteous to other drivers and keeps out of the way whenever possible.

gagrice

Are you a Honda dealer in Canada? If so how are the hybrid sales doing up there? Do you get any of the Civic CNG vehicles and at what premium?

graphicguy

I'd be interested to hear what the "average" MPG is/was after a couple of years of ownership of a hybrid. For me, the "game" of trying to squeeze more MPGs out of one of those would grow very tiresome, pretty quickly.

gagrice...not trying to speak for "isellhondas", but he's been a great Edmunds contributor for quite some time based in Washington state.

graphicguy

OK...good luck with the game!

I do expect your average MPG over time to hit what the professional reviewers and the averages most people are experiencing, though.

That is....about 40 MPG - 45 MPG...or about 10%-15% more than with a regular Civic.

isellhondas

Thank you! Not all would agree with you but thanks anyway!

isellhondas

Yep, I agree with you. To each his own. I know I would quickly tire of the game. You do have to realize that hybrids tend to attract people who are far different than I am.

I see people who keep detailed log books where they mark down every drop of gas bought, MPG, what they paid etc, etc....

Not me! Hey, whatever makes you happy, I suppose!

blueiedgod

Why not compare HCH to Civic HX? They both feature lean burning VTEC-E, and HX with CVT is rated at 45 mpg.
I enjoy reaidng these battles of the keystrokes, but hybrid technology is not there to save money, it is there to save the environment, and it is in its infancy. Originally all cars were electric, then ran on alcohol, then on gasoline. People did not think much of internal combustion in the late 1800's early 1900's. Electric was the way to go. Electric motors are more efficient that the most efficient Internal combustion engine, which produces parasitic heat in huge amounts.

graphicguy

You forgot steam engines.

With LEV, ULEV, PEZ, etc cars, even V8 SUVs, the amount of polutants have become nearly a non-issue with any of them. The issue has always been the amount of polutants that are emitted by either older cars on the road, or ones that haven't had proper maintenance.

gagrice

You are absolutely correct. I have a friend that runs a smog test station here in CA. He told me that a 1985 that is properly maintained does not put out a significant amount more pollution than a 2000 comparable vehicle. The catalytic convertor does the bulk of the work and a well tuned engine is also important. He said there is a lot of fraud in the testing business. Especially in the dealerships.

blueiedgod

Steam engines are still more efficient than Internal combustion.

I highly doubt that a carbeurated 1985 engine even well tuned, can control the air/fuel mixture as well as the modern OBDII compliant fuel injected engines. A carbeurated engine has no feedback from the exhaust side as to how much fuel has been burnt, while OBDII FI engine has an oxygen sensor to tell the computer how much fuel to add or remove from the next cycle. While too lean of a mixture is not good either. Knock sensor will prevent the FI system from destroying your engine internals from premature combustion (knock, ping). I highly doubt that a 1985 FI system can do all the fine tuning on the fly that a modern FI engine system does. The goal here is to have such a control burn that a catalytic converter is not needed. A 1972 Honda CVCC engine did not need a cat because it was burning so lean, but it was installed anyway to comply with the regulations. A 2004 Civic produces less pollutants in 200 miles than a 1985 Chevy sitting in a parking lot with the engine off. The most pollution your Civic does is when you fill it up at a station that has no vaccum vapor recovery system. As far as I know only metro NY and CA have them. You can tell a Vaccum vapor recovery fueling station by the double hose or a very thick filler hose with a rubber boot going over the nossle.

PF_Flyer

Be sure to check out our Town Hall chat lineup for Tuesday evenings... First up, talk the latest in new automotive technology during the Hybrid Vehicles Chat from 5-6pmPT/8-9pm ET

Hybrid Vehicles Chat Room

Immediately following at 6-7pm PT/9-10pm ET, we keep the chat party going with the Mazda Mania chat.

Mazda Mania Chat Room

The Town Hall chats are a great place to take these message board topics LIVE. Hope to see you there this week!

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djasonw

I just started reading these posts and I find them quite interesting/entertaining. I happen to own a loaded '04 Prius. Never ever considered the HCH. If the Prius did NOT exist, I'd probably own a loaded Accord Coupe. It gets great mileage and a really nice ride. If I am really good I can get an average of between 45-50 on a tank. Lately, I don't even look anymore (except when I fill up) and I am consistently getting 48-49. No tricks and not riding with tires that are so hard you need to wear a kidney belt. I can not see ANY reason to by an HCH over a standard Civic. I really like the Civic hatch and you can't even get that in a Civic Hybrid. Heck.. I read you can't even put down the rear seats for cargo!! Is that true? Everyone here is right.. you will NOT make up the price premium. Civics are HEAVILY discounted and HCH are NOT. I would NEVER expect to get the type of mileage these hyper folks get, nor would I want to drive the way they do (like old farts).

djasonw

Isn't that a hatch? Have I upset you missme? Or is it misterme? Perhaps the only way to explain the enthusiasm for the Prius is the fact that it IS a better hybrid. My review of this thread reveals that VERY few people (including a Honda dealer) could condone the HCH over a standard CIVIC. Enjoy your ubiquitous HCH. LOL!!!

bamacar

Funny this thread sounds exactly like the Prius one. Not a chance you can defend either the HCH or Prius for the acceleration, MPG, or cost versus a regular Civic, Corolla, Camry, or Accord. The HCH would take 10-15 years for break even; the Prius probably 10-20+ given its higher price not to mention the wait time.

djasonw

Gee... I wonder why the Prius list is so long. Perhaps a great many people wish to part with their hard earned dollars. We've been down that road before. People are NOT buying these gems for mileage. Just look at Ebay and you'll see the lunacy.

bamacar

Kinda like the PT Cruiser, Miata, New Beetle etc. When something is hot, there is no logic to peoples' purchases. The HCH, since the gas price increased, is also hard to find. Buying either is justifiable for other reasons but not for economic or acceleration reasons. Just wait a couple of years, and they will be much cheaper (same performance) or better (see Prius I vs Prius II) - maybe even justifiable economic and performance wise.

graphicguy

Now this is a breath of fresh air. One hybrid owner (prius) who is honest and realistic with stating their MPG and inability to justify the price premiums that are paid over the more "normal" auto counterparts. And "bamacar" who hit the nail on the head on the logic of it all.

djasonw

You have to be quite foolish to SOLELY justify buying a hybrid for the fuel savings alone. You have to look at the entire package. I was looking for a hatch with NAV which would get mid 40's average. I easily achieve that and actually it's a fun car to drive. I also love:

No engine running at standstill/coasting/trafic
Smart Entry/Exit
Electric AC
Traction Control
CVT (much better than a conventional auto)
Vehicle Skid Control
Roomy rear seat
Bluetooth
Side curtains
Excellent crash ratings
Redundant buttons on steering wheel for climate/radio

The car suits me fine. If/When I get bored, I'll buy something else to park next to it. For now, I'm cool. Also LAUGHING at the morons bidding 30-31k on a UNLOADED Prius on eBay.

robertsmx

actually it's a fun car to drive.

Prius?

djasonw

Yup.. FYI.. here is a brief list of my past few cars:

Mercedes C320
Jeep Liberty
Subaru WRX
Audi Allroad
Audi A4
VW Cabrio
Ford Exploder Sport
Lexus RX300

I like the Prius the best out of the above. Go figure...

Next car/SUV.... Porsche Cayenne (sp) Turbo

Sylvia

If you want to talk about why you drive a hybrid or motivations for buying one in general What's your reason fory buying a hybrid?

Otherwise - anyone have any questions or comments on the HCH?

robertsmx

For driving fun? I'm trying to picture that.

Civic hybrid is much better in that regard.

joec

Good little car. We bought it used and have been driving it for almost a year in Portland Metro area. The car does fine in rainy/wet weather. Mileage drops about 3-4 gallons as soon as temps go under 50F. Tire pressure is critical to mpg above 40. I run 40psi and it is the best all around compromise. No change in handling or ride. The tires on the HCH are very noisy are any irregular or grooved surface. They outright growl. When the car shuts off at stoplights while the autos around you are running is when the "green" message comes through. I don't see why this shutdown technology could not be applied to all vehicles. The fan runs for a long time when you turn this car off after stop and go driving. It is normal I guess a little unnerving when it happens the first couple of times. From my experience you drive the car normally with the exception of leaning into it a little when taking off to get 40-45 mpg out of it. There is no discernible lack of power until about 80mph it is actually froggy with the CVT auto from a standing stop to 65mph. The car is comfortable and surprizingly roomy for 4 adults. Maintenance costs are $45-$50 every 10,000 miles which is just the oil change. They have a "package" that is an oil change and a bunch of bs inspections for $135 you only need the oil change until the 30,000 interval when you must add $95-110 for CVT fluid changeout.

joec

Using any gas other than regular with an octane rating of 87 is a waste for this car. No change in mileage with higher grades and car does not ping on regular under heavy load or high ambient temps. The car is good to go out the door with the exception of the factory cargo net which to me is a mandatory accessory if you put anything in the trunk and don't want it to slide around. The factory trunk mat is not an option on the hybrids. The sound system is mediocre but auto temp system works well. If passengers in the rear seat roll crack their window on the highway your ears will pop from the vacuum effect it creates, cracking a window in the front at the same time alleviates this. Windshield tends to fog up easily which forces you to leave ac enabled as soon as you put the auto temp in defrost mode. Gas cap says to turn until you hear 3 clicks but one is sufficent. Turning for three just feels like cap is going to wear out quick to me. Wiper system controls are a little ackward to me, lights work great. Dealers tend to crank dash illumination in showroom, you will need to turn it down in real world night driving. This cars front end is low, no problems with dragging on speed bumps or turning into parking lots but watch out when you park or you will be buying touchup paint. You need to unscrew the antenna if you run the car through an auto car wash. Radio reception is weak unless you have antenna raised at least halfway from parallel to cars roof.

Sylvia

As they are NOT about the HCH, but about cars holding resale value.

Sorry gang - stay on topic or create a new discussion where the posts belong. Otherwise I may not be so kind to move your posting but simply delete them.

jamesm

I've had my Honda Civic Hybrid a grand total of 2 days, so bear that in mind when reading my comments. I bought it primarily as a commuter car. I got a pretty good deal on a used 2003 ($15,200 before tax and title, including 3-year bumper-to-bumper warranty):

What I like:

* Well-appointed interior
* Good rear-seat legroom
* Reasonable acceleration
* Good gas mileage the first 48 hours (44 mpg)
* Comfortable seating
* Good price (probably not usual for these cars right now)

What I don't like:

* Not as seamless use of electric as the Prius
  (Might be because this car is stick, Prius I tested was automatic)
* A/C turns off at stop lights (just annoying, that's all)
* Minor mpg advantage over normal Civic
* No fold-down rear seat
* No exclusive use of electric power, like Insight or Civic
* Battery drains quickly (short 1.5-mile hill nearly drained it as it assisted the engine)

Since this is mainly a commuter car, most of my objections really don't swing me either way on the car. I like the car, but don't love it. The Prius I looked at was a sexier implementation of the technology, but the ridiculously inflated prices made me turn away.

Basically, I think of the HCH as a car that gets a little boost from the electric motor for speed and economy, and a car that stalls/restarts itself at stoplights to save gas. Since idling engines have always bugged me, the self-stall feature is a nice one for me. I'd rather sit in a drive-up line or a traffic jam with no engine noise. I just wish that it used the electric motor for low-speed activity the way the Prius does. This is probably only an advantage in places like L.A. where it's not unusual to be travelling under 20 mph for a fair portion of your commute.

-- James

spdracr

i'm a high school student and just received my license, and my dad wanted to get me a hybrid car. we did our homework and chose the civic hybrid. after driving it around for a week, modestly, and trying to squeeze as many miles out of every gallon possible, i'm wondering if anybody is getting higher than 42.0 mpg .. because that's the kind of mileage i've been getting, even when driving very lightly and conservatively. its not very cold here in northern california because its summertime, so i dont think temperature has anything to do with it. will the mileage go up as time goes on, or will it only go down? anybody know, please answer..thanks so much!

spdracr

A/C turns off at stop lights

i drive a cvt civic hybrid, and don't have any problem with the air
conditioning shutting off when auto stop initiates. i think the problem only occurs with manual civic hybrids, cuz i remember reading that somewhere

minor mpg advantage over normal civic

i'm getting around 42.0 mpg while the car is still new, and my friend who has an automatic ex is seeing around 31.0 mpg (he ran the car empty and took note of the miles, he also lives near me and commutes the same roads as i do). thats over a 10 mpg boost, and if you think about it in the long run, thats not just saving money, but also time at the pump, and doing mother nature a little favor

i do agree with you that the car really needs to have seamless electric power at speeds lower than 25 mph. but this would then be emulating the toyota synergy drive, which is all copyrighted and protected...so i dont think honda wants to dabble with that. the civic is not a true hybrid - it is a weak but efficient gas car with an electric motor that assists it when needed.

the battery also does drain quickly, but it also charges just as fast. it really needs to have twice the capacity. and greater power.

misterme

I bought my 04CVT in January and have 15K miles.
I'm getting upper 50's calulated tanks, more than 700 miles for 13 gallons of gas.
This is my best commute average.
This is not a few select tanks or trips, and I have not had a tank average under 53MPG since I owned the car.
They have a real mileage database at greenhybrid dot com that shows people's averages of all hybrid types and some non-hybrid cars.
Out of 37 HCH's there are 12 averaging over 50mpg. Good driving tips if you are interested in improving your MPG perforamance.

oranu

Insurance Co. wants to complete buy-back of my crashed 2003 Civic Hybrid. Have yet to file 2003 tax return. If I sign over my "pink slip to the insurance Co, will this invalidate my $2000 tax credit application? Would it be valid to file the application immediately, then sign over the crasehd car to the Insurance Co.?

larsb

I'd talk to a tax expert or CPA to confirm, but my educated guess is that you WILL receive the credit because the credit is given for PURCHASING a hybrid in the tax year, NOT for OWNING it at the end of the tax year.

I would confirm with a tax pro, but I'll bet that's what they'll tell ya.....

My 2 cents..........:)

john1701a

First, there is no federal tax credit. It is only a DEDUCTION.

Second, the IRS rules clearly state you must retain ownership of the vehicle for a full 3 years.

Since your HCH is a 2003. $0 is the amount you can claim. Sorry. (Complain to the current administration for not having approved that bill for the hybrid incentives.)

JOHN

larsb

Actually, I'm not sure that part about the requirement of owning the car for three years is necessarily factual.

For example, for the people who took a $2000 deduction for the 2003 tax year, meaning they purchased a qualified vehicle before 12/31/2003, and then the car is totalled in January 2004 - are they then required to file an AMENDED return saying, "actually, I did not buy or use a qualified hybrid vehicle in 2003" ???

I'm looking on the IRS site to confirm, but I don't think "how long you have the car" is applicable. I may be wrong, but I doubt it....

Lars Bogart

larsb

OK I found the text in an IRS publication, Pub 535, "Business Expenses" chapter 12 page 47. Here it is verbatim:

"Sales or other dispositions. If you sell of otherwise dispose of the vehicle within 3 years after the date you placed it in service and know or have reason to know that it will be changed in any of the ways above, you are subject to recapture rules. In other dispositions (including a disposition by reason of an accident or other casualty), the recapture rules do not apply."

So, translated, that means that if you lose the car to an accident, you are not required to return the credit that you have taken in a previous year. So the three year rule applies for AFTER you have taken a deduction the first time.

What is DOES NOT SPECIFY is what is done if the car is lost to accident BEFORE you have taken a deduction at all.

That's where a tax expert could come in handy, because the still unanswered question is "do I get the first deduction in year one if I do not end the year with possession of the car?"

Lars

oranu

Wow! You folks are very helpful. Having not yet filed my 2003 return, it seems to me that the thing to do is to Xerox the title before turning ownership over to the insurance company, then file my 2003 return with the deduction claimed (as I owned and used the car from circa February, 2003 until the accident in May, 2004).

Comments?

larsb

That sounds like a legally sound strategy to me. Because in fact, you DID have ownership of the vehicle on 12/31/03, which is when the tax year ends. Good luck.........
Lars

gagrice

That bill is still in Congress it was sponsored by Rep. Dave Camp, R-Midland, in 2001. They have whittled the incentives down to save money. It has nothing to do with the Administration. The only tax credits I know of are on all electric cars. So you can buy a golf cart and use it to go get groceries. Maybe it will get passed yet this session. In time for the huge influx of hybrids and diesel cars.

http://www.detnews.com/2003/business/0311/18/c01-328385.htm

john1701a

Actually, there were several. There was a tax CREDIT that got dropped. And there was the renewal of the existing DEDUCTION that was allowed to sunset.

And yes, the current administration was involved with those.

JOHN

misterme

"And yes, the current administration was involved with those"

John, are you looking for a good political debate?
I would suggest that this forum is not the place for political topics or jabs, especially given the election year and firey potential.

Sylvia

it's a slippery slope...

Thanks

larsb

Has anyone replaced their own tranny fluid? If so or even if not,
does anyone know the capacity of the tranny case, i.e. how much fluid
I need to buy to refill it if I drain it myself?
Thanks...

stevecheme

This is a warning to all considering a hybrid car. If you are into hybrids purely for green reasons that's wonderful. But if you think you will save money, you may be deluding yourself. You must consider overall cost of ownership. The Honda Civic is a wonderful model to illustrate this because it comes from a conventional power-train family. So if we assume a first owner service life of 100,000 miles, then the 10 mpg boost in efficiency from 32mpg for standard to 42mpg from hybrid, you will save only 744 gallons of gas over this owners useful service. Gasoline prices are unpredictable, but baring a Middle-East war we are not going to see more than $3.00/gallon in next 5 years. So savings on fuel is about $2231 maximum. Since this trickles in over time, if you do a time value of money adjustment the future savings is probably only worth about $1800 in your pocket now (net present value). With the 2000 tax deduction (not credit) you will save 2000 times your tax rate (let us say 30% bracket) So we have a typical savings of 600 bucks at tax time and $1800 fuel savings for a total of $2400. Now lets be honest and compare the creature comfort/performance of the HCH with its siblings. You will be forced to admit it is fare less desirable than its top of the line Civic siblings. So what your get is typical of the low end of the Civic line which is valued at fare less than the HCH price less $2400 savings. Now add in the more expensive maintenance, maintenance only by HONDA, more fragile technology. And the highest risk of all, those high cycling batteries are not going to last the full 100,000 miles and they won't be cheap to replace! Enjoy the green on the trees because it ain't going to be in your wallet when your done. But I am glad someone is doing the field research.

larsb

I agree with you on most points, but on the "creature comfort/performance" issue, I think you missed the mark. The HCH compares VERY favorably with the top of the line EX model of standard gas-powered Civic. In fact, there's not much of anything you can get for an EX that is not available for the HCH:

Split folding seatback is one thing the HCH does not offer, but REALLY, how many times is that feature ever used? I have had two cars with that feature and cannot remember using it more than once or twice if that much. Stick your item out the side window like 90% of other car owners are required to do if it's too big for the trunk.

The engine is slightly less powerful on the HCH - but who buys a civic as a hot rod? The 16-24 age group "ricers" are the only ones who might.

Rear seat cupholders are not available on the 2004 HCH - so I put in a $10 plastic console for my kids to use back there.

Radio antenna on the HCH is mounted on the roof and not in the back glass - big whoop.

Moonroof not avail for the HCH - another big whoop. Moonroofs are notorious for leaking, breaking, letting in heat - who needs the hassles?

Other than those minor items, the HCH and the EX compare quite well.

And another item is that the "premium" price paid for the Hybrid WILL come back to you at resale time - the history of cars in America shows that if a model in a car line (DX, LX, EX) SELLS for more when new, it will thus similarly sell for a higher amount at resale and/or trade-in time. A 2000 LX will not bring as much as a 2000 EX, right? Thus it stands to logic that a 2004 EX will not bring as much at resale as a 2004 Hybrid.

And how does anyone know that Hybrid technology is "more fragile?" That's just a guess, not based on anything factual.

The "long run" money savings are not that enticing in terms of quantity of dollars, but Popular Mechanics did a cross country trip with a gas Civic and an HCH and put a Hybrid at 1 cent per mile cheaper gas wise. That's not much, but a penny saved is a penny earned, is it not?

And who can put a price on the feeling one gets at every red light when YOUR car shuts off the gas engine and does not sit there and pollute while idling like 99% of the rest of the cars on the road?

So I would advise someone NOT to buy a Hybrid if their SOLE GOAL is to save MONEY - but some things are more important than money, like thousands of cars polluting less PER MILE, which the Hybrid does over every non-hybrid out there.

mytwocents.....

gagrice

Those are both good arguments. My gripe is when I went pricing the HCH the dealer had tacked on a $1000 premium because he could. To me that is like Starbucks charging $5 for water in NY on 9/11. If someone is willing to go the extra mile to do their part to save our air. And the Auto dealers are cashing in on those special cars some one should be screaming. And it is worse with the 2004 Toyota Prius. I have heard of markups as high as $5000 over MSRP. In my mind that is criminal.

stevedebi

Actually, if you find a dealer charging over MSRP, report them to Toyota corporate. I saw an article that said the Toyota dealers are not allowed to charge over MSRP. (it was in an article describing Prius increased production).

So go get them in trouble!

larsb

OH that is ABSOLUTELY correct - we have a dealer here in Phoenix, LARRY MILLER TOYOTA, who was and may still be (I know this for a fact because my former roommate bought one with the markup) to be charging $3000-$5000 over sticker as a premium on the 2004 Pruis, JUST to line their fat-cat pockets. I *DO* think that is criminal and should be prosecuted as theft. Bullcrap on that "the market supports the price so we can charge it" argument. Another dealer, BIG TWO TOYOTA, was selling them AT STICKER, no mark up. Bravo for them !!!

gagrice

That is good to know and I will. I'll give a Hoorah to Toyota on that one.