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Comments
Seriously, though I am not a battery expert, I highly doubt you can infer what the battery life of the rechargeables in a hybrid vehicle will be based on the lead acid batteries used to start conventional cars in cold vs hot climates. These are completely different animals. Likewise, though there may be some life dependance on how often they are discharged and recharged, unless you can point me to a technical article addressing the issue with current hybrid cars on the road, I take those statements with a big grain of salt also. Essentially, time will tell on battery life when these hybrids get on the road for more years and in greater quantities, and even then, it will be hard to predict life as I am sure the battery technology is evolving, so what you bought this year or last year may not be a good basis for what you buy in two or three years.
Actually all Hybrids are basically too new to have any valid statistical or empircal data to predict the hybrid battery life within 2 or 3 standard deviations. If a person drives a car hard in extreme heat or extreme cold, they will probably require a battery replacement under warranty. A person who drives very easy and has mostly highway miles may never need a battery repalcement. Both extremes skew the average and the midpoint of expected battery life. Also we don't know the standard deviation ; it could be very narrow , but more likely it will be very wide.
And speculation of battery replacement cost is not even close to correct. Currently Nickel-Metal Hydride batteries are being used in hybrid cars . They are a good secondary cell (rechargeable) technology. But more advance Lithium based technology is being used in PCs and other high end rechargeble electronic today. However, there are two main problems that need to be overcome: (1) reducing self-discharge and increasing storage density. The Lithum based offers the best solution espoecially in storage density. There are several Lithium battery types today; Cycular Lithium Ion, Prismatic Lithium Ion, and Polymer Lithium Ion. More than likely when rplacements are due in 7-10 years the replacements with be Polymer Lithium ION instead of Nickel-Metal Hydride. While increased production will reduce costs by absorbing initial tooling and research costs, we the general public, don't know how much of this cost is research and tooling as opposed to pure production costs. To speculate on the type of battery 7-8 years out is akin to predicting the PC in the 60's. We don't know if the cost will be reduced from $3,000 to $1,200 and we don't know what kind of replacment batteries will be offered.
YMMV,
MidCow
Just think if the 87 Billion $ that is being spent of Iraq rebuild this year were applied to mass transportation or to the development of alternate fuels.
Until then the manual transmission HCH and the manual transmission Insight are the only available manual transmisison alternatives that provide high mileage with very low emissions. And of those two the HCH is the most practical overall!
> You ever try to crank over your car in the winter?
Again, this is REDUCED CAPACITY, not death of the battery.
And since the battery-pack in a hybrid is grossly larger than what is needed to start the engine, it is a non-issue. In other words, it has over 100 times the power needed than a 12V that only has 1 or 2 times. So even if the capacity was reduced by 90%, you'd still have 10 times left... which is still far more than a traditional vehicle.
Sorry, but having driven a hybrid in MINESOTA through 4 WINTERS now, I am very well informed about real-world operation. And my friends here who also own hybrids concur.
JOHN
No. You are simply forgetting about the PZEV version of HCH in CA, as well as the PZEV Prius in CA. They both have those longer warranties.
> Actually all Hybrids are basically too new to have any valid statistical or empircal data
7 YEARS is still considered new, eh?
Prius first went on sale to consumers back in 1997. The prototypes are even older. And the original NiHM dates back even further.
JOHN
I'm in favor or coast to coast "bullet trains" with auxiliary trasport modes to dertain destinations (conventional trains? busses? monorails?.....??????). But, as you point out, something like that would take Federal and State mandates as well as a budget of trillions (plus some politicians that have more foresight than just their next re-election bid). We're also looking at a the scope of something like this that would take not years, but decades to complete.
In the meantime, I'm still going to the grocery store in my car tonight and then, next month, drive to my July 4th celebration, 200 miles away, in my Pontiac Vibe (and get 36 MPG with a wagon filled with people and luggage) all for less than $40 in fuel cost for the round trip.
John, with all due respect, you can TRY to justify your hybrid any way you want. I still can't see any business or environmntal case for them as things stand today. As mentioned, if you want to claim that you wanted some "whiz bang" technology to drive, I'll respect that. I can't see a case being made for any other reason, though.
Neither can I.
Remember, my goal is and always has been long-term.
So, I too am waiting for that critical-mass to be reached. It hasn't yet. In fact, I don't actually recommend buying a hybrid to anyone *TODAY* that isn't dead set on getting one. Waiting is perfectly fine.
Nonetheless, that has absolutely nothing to do with the technology. It is all a matter of logistics. Training salespeople, training & tooling mechanics, getting third-party suppliers up to speed, and properly informing consumers (ending the misconceptions) are all independent of the design itself.
It works and is very realistic from an operational point-of-view. So the ownership part will fall right into place as production increases and prices decrease.
JOHN
Consumer AA NiMH batteries last 500-1,000 cycles. Lead acid battery life is much shorter.
Don't forget about Vancouver Prius taxi driver who drove his classic Prius 160,000 miles before trading in with a new one.
Dennis
I think you meant "Interior Security System" in stead of "Inferior Security System". If not, LOL
The HCH is a solid quiet car. One person reported in the Edmunds Consumer reviews that is was noisey; On a test drive I found it very quiet.
My only problem was that they are selling at MSRP and during the test drive I only got 37 mpg. Garnated I acclerated to get on the highway and probably wasn't driving the most frugal, but still I expected more.
YMMV,
MidCow
I see, at best, limited desire for such things as 2 individual trip meters, or "unique hybrid styling" (very subjective)...your list goes on and on, but there's very little there that would cause me to want a hybrid over the "plain" LX based on the feature set. I certainly don't have the need for "instantaneous" MPG (had that in my BMWs and found them next to worthless), nor do I care whether my guages are just "plain" backlit...I want them to light up at night...that's all.
Like all car companies, some "features" they describe on their models amount to little more than a "hill of beans", but boy do they make them sound attractive. Does it start, drive, stop, keep me warm in the winter, keep me cool in the summer...is it convenient to use...does it perform like I expected? Those are the things I look for. Not whether it has "heat rejecting" glass as opposed to "tinted glass" (does it really make that much of a difference as long as the A/C is effective?).
I want A/C. Power windows and door locks are nice. Cruise is helpful. Past that, does it start, go and stop when I want it to, how I expect it to, in all types of weather? Yes? Then I'm happy.
I'm not "anti-hybrid". I just can't make the case for them.
There's just too little known about the batteries in real environments over the long haul one way or the other to make any blanket statements (including mine) regarding their lengevity or future costs.
That said, people are buying hybrids for many different reasons. Financial or environmental ones aren't cases that can be reasoably made, however. I don't have an issue with those who like the "whiz-bang" technology and can accept their reasoning for doing so.
___These are the things you missed out with your LX. According to http://www.hondacars.com:
$16,410 Base LX AT w/side airbags
(You say 15K but don't provide a link as I do..only hearsay until then)
I mentioned the site, but didn’t give a specific link to the site. This is a site that will actually QUOTE you a price on the car, which you CAN buy it for. You can check the site yourself at www.carsdirect.com
$876 Spoke alloy wheels
(Where did you get $419? More here-say EX is the same)
The wheels are available from any dealer at a LIST price of $714.52 (these are the EX wheels, NOT the optional $876 wheels) They can also be had from Handa Accessories site for $545.12 (here’s the link: http://www.handa-accessories.com/civext01.html )
$59 Door edge guard
Available from handa accessories for $42 – link above
$89 Splash guards
Available from handa accessories for $58 – link above. My dealer threw these in for free, along with the wheel locks for the wheels.
$499 rear spoiler
The price you quote is NOT for the deck lid spoiler that the Hybrid comes with, but the FULL spoiler. The deck lid spoiler as on the Hybrid is available from handa accessories for $186
$89 Fender well trim
Available from handa accessories for $66
$129 Carbon fiber interior trim
Available from handa accessories for $92.40
$59 Rear floor mats
These are included with the base LX
$49 Front floor mats
These are included with the base LX
$169 Inferior security system
Available from handa accessories for $120
$129 Metal-look trim (HCH is real metal)
Do you have the carbon fiber kit, or the metal kit? I can’t imagine that you have both. Sounds like your double listing options to justify extra expense again.
Total cost with ALL of the options that you mention, using ACTUAL (not pie in the sky sticker pricing) pricing available to EVERYONE, the LX similarly equipped actually breaks down like this:
$15,011 base LX Auto – anyone can get this price through www.carsdirect.com
$228 full dealer list on the side airbags
$186 deck lid spoiler from Handa accessories – anyone can get this price
$545 alloy EX wheels from Handa accessories – anyone can get this price
$42 door edge guard from Handa accessories – anyone can get this price
$58 splash guards from Handa accessories – anyone can get this price (many dealers include these for free, however)
$66 fender trim from Handa accessories – anyone can get this price
$93 carbon fiber OR metal trim kit from Handa accessories – anyone can get this price
$16,229 (or about $2,300 less than the price you are quoting based on list prices, and $3515 less than the Hybrid price)
18,557 total LX cost
Sure, if you're going to pay FULL list price for EVERYTHING.
"That leaves anti-lock brakes, automatic climate control, trip computer, and variable intermittent wipers making up the $3,511 difference"
You missed a few things:
IMA System which includes but not only"
*Motor/generator
*Additional gauges & indicators
*Battery, computer controller etc
CVT
These are all part of the Hybrid drivetrain, NOT “options”. This would be equivalent of comparing the 93 HP engine of the Hybrid to the 115 HP engine of the LX.
Electric assisted power steering
Do you think that the LX does not have power steering?
No ABS-you also mentioned this VERY important feature
This is true .and I gave $1,000 allowance for this option
Low rolling resistance tires
Meaningless marketing term
Variable wipers-you mentioned this also
The LX has intermittent wipers, just not “variable” intermittent. How much is this option worth? More than the loss of the fold down rear seats???
Heat-rejecting glass-not just tinted
Where did you find this? I’d like to see somewhere that shows that the glass in the Hybrid is significantly different than the LX. I’m not saying it isn’t, just would like to know where that is defined.
Auto Climate control-Not just A/C as the LX
I can reach in front of me and adjust the heat or ac controls just fine – it’s an option but I think that most would agree not a significant one. I did mention this in my comparison, though.
Adjustable steering column
As on the base LX.
Dx,LX,EX only have a plain "backlit" instrument panel
Digital odometer
2 individual trip meters
2 individual resetable Average MPG meters
Instantaneous MPG meter
Coolant temperature gauge
Base LX has digital odometer, 2 trip meters, and coolant temperature gauges as well. I LOVE the blue backlighting on the LX gauges and know how to do simple division to calculate gas mileage; thanks.
EBD-Another important braking feature
And also one that could only apply to a Hybrid vehicle – NOT an option, but a feature of the Hybrid technology.
Significantly better MPG
Is there a site that you can direct me to that has real-world gas mileage figures for the Hybrid? I’m curious to see the numbers. I’ve heard varying results, and have read several articles where owners have complained about mileage nowhere near the EPA estimates. On the other hand, my LX has been consistently above the EPA estimates for the vehicle.
Unique Hybrid styling
This is a personal preference, and could hardly be considered an advantage of the Hybrid.
Another note:
Look at the regular Civic specs chart at:
http://www.hondacars.com/models/specifications.asp?ModelName=Civi- - - - - - - c+Sedan
Notice that LX has almost the same options as the more expensive EX.
How on Earth can Honda sell an EX with the same options? EX is a nicer car!
I don’t know. The same way they sell the Hybrid I guess.
It is styled differently...generally nicer...you get what you pay for.
Umm .what part of the styling is different on the EX versus the LX?
Let's see EX MSRP is 18,310.
Only fools are paying MSRP unless they want a Hybrid.
This upgraded Civic is more comparable with HCH.
With the same options listed for LX comes to $20,457. Still missing items on HCH listed above.
See above comment about MSRP.
"The lowest mileage that I've gotten out of my first 3 tanks of gas was 35 mpg; the highest was 40 mpg"
__My first 3 tanks 49-54MPG, highest was 59.2.
Yesterday I averaged 66.2MPG to work, 62.4 back home, 65.1MPG to work today.
Driving style has everything to do with the mileage you get. I would like to hear from a group of Hybrid owners to get an “average” mileage picture.
Price they wanted for the Hybrid? Over $21K....no negotiations....take it, or leave it.
So, in my previous comparisons, I was being generous to the hybrid prices.
For about $18,700 I could have bought an Accord LX automatic and still average 32 MPG (vs the Civic's 35 MPG average).
"$16,229 (or about $2,300 less than the price you are quoting based on list prices, and $3515 less than the Hybrid price)"
____That's nice but after all that you still only have an an LX with aftermarket parts attached.
Nope, it would be an LX with the SAME FACTORY options that your Hybrid has attached to it. (besides the ones that aren't available, which we've discussed and beaten those to death already I think)
"18,557 total LX cost "
This is about what I paid for my HCH last January.
The real-world price on the LX with the options today would be $16,229 and the real world price on the Hybrid today would be $19,744 What happened in the past is the past. What would the LX have sold for when you bought your Hybrid? I'm comparing prices from today's market.
"These are all part of the Hybrid drivetrain, NOT “options”.
___You are correct and are available only on HCH and Insight and add to the cost of the car. HCH comes all options standard equip.
(IE your complaint "What do you get for your money?)
I thought we were comparing options on the cars, not technology. Okay...have it your way....even with the electric motors the Hybrid makes less power than the LX. Aren't lower powered vehicles usually a step DOWN in a manufacterer's line of automobiles? My point is that you are not making a reasonable comparison in this respect. I'm starting to believe that you don't WANT to make a reasonable comparison between the two vehicles.
"Do you think that the LX does not have power steering?"
___Electronic PS doesn't waste energy in tuning pulleys and belts. That's why it's on Hybrid cars
Okay...then this fits into your "gas mileage" argument again, right? Where are the statistics that show how much energy this saves?
"Low rolling resistance tires: Meaningless marketing term"
___What? Did you just make that up?
Is Leanburn also a marketing ploy?
I said Marketing "term", but "ploy" is probably equally suitable. What if they called them "harder-riding, lower-traction" tires? I would bet that these are also qualities that those tires have as well. It seems to me that with all of these "advantages" (the electronic steering and special tires mentioned so far) that the Hybrid would be getting MUCH better mileage than the regular civic. I wonder what the all-gas Civic would do with these great energy savers? Where are the statistics that show how much energy these tires save? What about their ride-quality?
"Heat-rejecting glass-not just tinted Where did you find this?
http://www.hondacars.com
___Look in the HCH and Civic Sedan specifications.
Okay...I won't argue about the heat-rejecting glass. Do they show anywhere how much cooler they keep the interior of the car?
"I can reach in front of me and adjust the heat or ac controls just fine"
___That's my point. Set the temp and the car does the rest. Cycles the compressor only as needed while cooling saving fuel.
So, put this one in the "gas mileage" group then as well?
"EBD-Another important braking feature
And also one that could only apply to a Hybrid vehicle – NOT an option, but a feature of the Hybrid technology"
ELectronic Braking Distribution:
Are you saying that this braking feature shouldn't be included the cost of the car?
No, I'm saying that it shouldn't be included in a comparison between a car that uses different technology and doesn't NEED this technology in order to recharge batteries. I guess what it boils down to is what I'm saying is that the technology is not cost-effective.
"Is there a site that you can direct me to that has real-world gas mileage figures for the Hybrid? I would like to hear from a group of Hybrid owners to get an “average” mileage picture."
___greenhybrid dot com has a real mileage database from real life hybrid car owners.
Thanks for the link. I see based on the larger group of Civic Hybrid owners, the average mileage achieved by the group was under 47 MPG. That is a much more believable number. So they are getting anywhere between 7 and 12 MPG better than I am in my all gas Civic. I wonder how much of that I would make up if I had those great tires, electronic power steering, and the air conditioning that shuts itself off automatically?
"Unique Hybrid styling
This is a personal preference, and could hardly be considered an advantage of the Hybrid."
___Yes, for somone shopping for a lesser styled car
Wow, so you think that EVERYONE should like the Hybrid styling better than the other Civic models because:
A - YOU like it better?
B - The car is more expensive so it MUST be better?
"How on Earth can Honda sell an EX with the same options? EX is a nicer car!
I don’t know. The same way they sell the Hybrid I guess."
___Upgraded nicer cars are sold every minute of every day.
There is another saying like that....how does it go....one is born every minute?
___If one's budget allows a $15K car then that's all they should get.
It is curious that someone who buys one of these cheaper cars will go to complain about the more expensive nicer 1st and 2nd classes up model and say they're all about equal.
DX....LX.....EX.....HCH...That's the way it is.
Practically every model made has these classes.
If one can't tell the differences I can't help that.
The Honda Civic was purchased by me as a 3rd car. My budget isn't what prevented me from getting a Hybrid or any other vehicle. I think it was common sense that I applied when making the choice. If you LIKE the Hybrid and feel good about paying more for it for the differences it has from the other Civics or any other car, then that's great. I was just one of the people who didn't feel the extra cost was justifiable. If I could find anything concrete to support the price difference I would have bought the Hybrid. It's your money and you can certainly do what you want with it.....it just seemed like I could waste a few thousand dollars on something else and get more out of it. I'm not "attacking" the Hybrid and certainly didn't intend to make you or anyone else defensive about their choice of cars - as you say that's why there are so many different models and trim levels on the cars; people have different tastes and different things that are important to them. I was just sharing my opinion.
Those who can't make the case (like me), view hybrids as something of an anomalie. That's coming from my midwest home, though. Maybe in the western states, the differences are more pronounced. Thusly, we don't see the value of some of the things you guys point out as major differences. Gotta say, the "heat rejecting windows" still sounds like some great marketing "speak" for tinted widows.
But, to each his/her own.
All that said, I ended up not buying the Civic I had originally gone shopping for.
Since my brother-in-law is a GM employee, I enjoy his discount. I ended up with a new '04 Vibe all loaded up with automatic, cruise, power everything, A/C, Corolla dependability (and a "cool" looking dash that lights up only when you turn the car on, like the hybrid Civic), solar ray windows (I think the sticker says they reject heat or perhaps it's just a fancy name for "tinted" windows?). I'll get mid 30s MPG with it, even with all that room.
Here are some of the things the brochure and sticker says it has (but I can't really say they are of value)...
--Daytime running lamps with "twilight sentinel" (they turn themselves on and off depending whether it's day or night)
--110 volt and 12 volt outlets
--adjustable rear headrests
--concealed under floor rear storage
--battery rundown protection
--chrome accented guages and armrests
--roof rack with adjustable cross bars
--VVTi engine
--bumper protectors
--seatback storage
--"moons & tunes" (basically a higher powered stereo with more speakers with temporary "XM" service which will cost me if I decide to continue the service and a glass power sunroof)
--middle armrest with CD and cellphone storeage
--anti-lock brakes (I want those)
--flat folding rear and passenger seats (I put some lawn furniture in it last night, so that's kind of nice)
There's a ton more, but the point is, most of this is "fluff" that I could easily live without and not miss it one bit.
Oh yeah, I paid a little over $12K with the GM employee discount plus all the rebates. That's roughly an $8K difference between either a Prius or Civic Hybrid, plus it's quicker (no speed demon by any stretch, though), bigger and, for me anyway, much more practical than either of those. Plus, it's every bit as nice as them, too (maybe moreso).
It would take me at least 9 additional years of driving a Civic Hybrid or Prius (over and above the 7 years/100,000 miles I'll keep it for) to make up the difference in the additional MPG the hybrids enjoy over this Vibe. In other words, I'd have to drive one of the hybrids 16 years (or ~240,000 miles) to just "break even" financially compared to the Vibe. That doesn't include any battery replacement of the hybrids (if they do, indeed need replacement during those 16 years).
By that time, we should be seeing some real break throughs....like fuel cell vehicles.
But, hybrid buyers are a different breed. Even when I point out the many years and miles it would take to break even they usually still want a hybrid for a number of other reasons that make little sense to me.
But...that's O.K. Like you said, we are all different.
Upgrades over the HCH:
Multi-Link rear suspension.
Adjustable Rear headrests.
Free carpeted floormats.
Folding Rear seat/Rear seat passthrough.
Dual illuminated vanity mirrors.
6 stereo speakers.
Retained accessory power.
Telescoping steering wheel.
Power trunk release.
Auto down and up drivers window.
Sunglasses holder.
4 cubic feet more of trunk space.
12 cubic feet more interior space.
For the items you spoke of for me:
Edge guards: $45 online
Splash guards: $58 online
Alloy wheels: 16" EX-V6 wheels $500 brand new with 4 new Michelin tires- EBAY
Rear spoiler: Do not like on either Civic or Accord Worth: $0
Honda Floormats: Free on Accord
Security System : Don't need $0
67-75 additional horsepower
Accord 5 speed manual 0-60 7.9-8.5 seconds HCH 11-12.5
2.5 -4.6 seconds difference - Priceless!
All for 1700 less than a 5 speed HCH. Here the HCH sells for sticker to sticker-plus. The Accord is about 500 under invoice.
For me no comparison. If it had been about $1000 or so less for the HCH, I would have strongly considered the Civic. As stated above, for me, the numbers are not there.
According to the dealer here in San Diego the first Prius was a 2001 model.
As far as NiMH batteries are concerned. I have a lot of experience with them in extreme cold weather. We are the cellular provider in Prudhoe Bay Alaska. If you leave your cell phone out at 40-50 below you are lucky if it continues to work. We sell hundreds of replacement batteries destroyed by sub-zero temperatures. Are you saying your car sits out all night in MN -20 degree weather and you can go out and take off without any appreciable loss of performance? How long does it take the heater to warm up the interior at 20-30 below?
PS
Matsushita developed the NiMH battery in 1992 for EV (Electric Vehicles)
It figures that a US dealer would only have US information.
Prius was available in Japan back in 1997.
> We sell hundreds of replacement batteries destroyed by sub-zero temperatures.
Since cell-phone batteries are allowed to be routinely drained completely and hybrid batteries are *NEVER* allowed, the age quite differently and consequently have different tolerances.
It doesn't surprise me at all the the cell-phone batteries croak.
I'd be shocked (bad pun) if that ever happened to a hybrid battery, because they have proved quite resistant to the cold of Minnesota. The engine fires up without any trouble, and you get heat within about ten minutes or so while driving. There's no need to let the car warm up before driving away, but you should drive conservatively until you get the heat.
JOHN
This whole discussion started because some people are beginning to realize that the higher mileage of hybrids currently cannot offset their higher price. There is nothing to disect here. The perceived "luxury" of the hybrid version is just that. What drives people to look at the hybrid is for reasons of fuel economy or emmissions. Those who put fuel economy at the top of their list have realized that they can get a comparable fuel efficient vehicle that will cost them less money up front and at least for the first 10 years of service, at which point it might be time to move on to a new car. Therefore, the fuel economy savings of the hybrid don't make sense to them. They see the hybrid as offering less versatility, less power, and higher uncertainty in the long run for a higher price. So after looking at the hybrid that way, what is left to make them want the car? Luxury? When I see a hybrid, I don't say, wow, there's the most luxurious Civic they make! I look at it and say, he must be happy with the high mileage with the high gas prices. Otherwise, it looks like a run of the mill Civic. Arguing over the perception of "luxury" that you have for the hybrid is silly because the vast majority of people don't buy these cars cause they are more luxurious, they buy them for the techno wow factor and how fuel efficient it is. If you love the car and have found a reason to justify the higher price, that's great. There is no reason for you to have to defend the car to others who have shared a conflicting opinion.
Warner
Bamacar is not quoting prices on hondacars.com. He is posting the price he paid for his Accord LX. The price he paid for his car is less then the Civic Hybrid (by $2450 if you want to be anal) and thus he didn't see a reason to buy the hybrid. Why are you arguing about that point?
This whole discussion started because some people are beginning to realize that the higher mileage of hybrids currently cannot offset their higher price. There is nothing to disect here. The perceived "luxury" of the hybrid version is just that. What drives people to look at the hybrid is for reasons of fuel economy or emmissions. Those who put fuel economy at the top of their list have realized that they can get a comparable fuel efficient vehicle that will cost them less money up front and at least for the first 10 years of service, at which point it might be time to move on to a new car. Therefore, the fuel economy savings of the hybrid don't make sense to them. They see the hybrid as offering less versatility, less power, and higher uncertainty in the long run for a higher price. So after looking at the hybrid that way, what is left to make them want the car? Luxury? When I see a hybrid, I don't say, wow, there's the most luxurious Civic they make! I look at it and say, he must be happy with the high mileage with the high gas prices. Otherwise, it looks like a run of the mill Civic. Arguing over the perception of "luxury" that you have for the hybrid is silly because the vast majority of people don't buy these cars cause they are more luxurious, they buy them for the techno wow factor and how fuel efficient it is. If you love the car and have found a reason to justify the higher price, that's great. There is no reason for you to have to defend the car to others who have shared a conflicting opinion.
I looked under www.hondacars.com for Accord specifications and guess what, floormats are standard just as I said. Thanks for the link. HCH trunk release is not powered and on the remote. I believe those rear headrests are fixed on the HCH. Is there really illumination on those vanity mirrors? Does it have the automatic off headlights?
How much worth does all the stuff on the Accord have and the Civic does not? I estimate about $5k. Thus with the appropriate mods on the HCH the total would be $24650. So I was being much to generous to you, looks like illogical estimations can work for both of us. Now it is only 7k more than I paid for my Accord. Actual prices paid matter not what somebody printed on a sticker somewhere. My Accord price is about par for the course at large city dealerships. If someone paid your Accord MSRP quote, they were taken. If they were willing to pay that much, then money spent is not important to them anyway. Keep trying, but for those who look at features, fuel economy, and dollars, I am becoming less and less convinced.
Which OPTIONS did I leave out? There are some technology DIFFERENCES that the Hybrid has than the other Civics. These can not be considered "Options". I did mention every DIFFERENCE as well, and then gave a concrete dollar amount that one would pay for those differences, and followed up by stating that *I* didn't find them cost effective. And I know EXACTLY why the EX is more expensive than the LX - I just don't feel that it's $1,900 to get alloy wheels, sunroof, anti-lock brakes, 12 extra horsepower, and variable intermittent wipers - but that's just MY opinion. Every one does what they want with their money. I DID like the EX alloy wheels a LOT better than the covers that come on the base LX, and worked out with my dealer to get them for $419. If I had to pay full list price for them, I would not have gotten them. The ONLY feature that is really nice is the anti-lock brakes; I wish those had been available on the LX. I believe that in my comparison between the LX and the Hybrid that I included every possible OPTION that could be included, of course I could not include technology differences between the cars though, as I noted.
Warner
Probably those great "low rolling resistance" tires.
Warner
I have read several references to special tires on these high mpg cars including the VW TDI. Are they significantly more expensive than other tires? I remember talking to a guy that was ordering tires for his Prius at Firestone about a year ago. He indicated they were quite expensive. He also said they did not get very good mileage out of them. Would changing to high mileage tires hurt the fuel economy?
See my posts at "The Great Battery Debate" board for more info. Panasonic/Matsushita HV batteries can go below 30 deg celsius.
usbseawolf2000 "The Great Battery Debate" Jun 10, 2004 9:24pm
Dennis
The "LRR" label on tires isn't actually a precise measurement like it would seem to imply.
When the LRR tires needed replacement on my 2001 Prius, I switched to just standard Goodyears. MPG didn't change.
The 2004 Prius doesn't come with LRR tires. They are just standard Goodyears too.
JOHN
http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/ly/jamesbay.htm
Dennis
You're on the west coast and you see hybrid buyers day in-day out. What's motivating them to buy?
They either want to support the technology or do their part in conserving fuel or whatever.
And, yeah, you are right about the Vibe resale value but if you like it, that's what matters.
What you said is more or less what I suspected of the hybrid buyer. That is, it's more of a "knee jerk" reaction that drives their sales.
My contention has always been that if a potential buyer looks at anything more than the "gee whiz" factor or that hollywood people are driving them, then they would see there isn't much in the way of financial or environmental benefits over the long haul....even less over the short term.
That said, I don't have an issue with someone saying they are intrigued by the technology and that's the reason they bought one.
Personally, I'd rather buy the better "value". That would be the Civic VP, LX or EX. They are better performers and can't be beat, regardless of the comparison used, reagrding value, price, etc.
With fuel prices dropping the last week, have you seen a drop in hybrid sales? Or, are you still seeing interest outpacing supply?
BTW...while test driving, I was able to get some seat time in an Accord LX 4 cyl automatic. Gotta say, that's the most impressive value in the whole Honda lineup. It doesn't do anything wrong and is priced right (just more than I wanted to spend).
And, the Accord is a lot more car, all the way around, than a Civic (hybrid or not). Plus, in real world everyday pricing, it's still substantially less expensive than a Civic Hybrid.
I'm happy for you in your choice of cars, as you should be, too. In all honesty, it's still a Civic and not some sort of luxury vehicle as has been purported. As many here have shown, the payback for your out-of-pocket in purchasing a hybrid over a "regular" Civic (or a Corolla) would take 12-15+ years to hit just the "break even" point.
So, if anyone really does their homework, then the purchase of a hybrid does indeed look like a "knee jerk" reaction to the temporary gas price gouging from the refineries as opposed to someone who made the purchase based on any sort of real world monetary considerations.
BTW, fuel around my 'burg has just dropped to $1.60/gal.
>times my MPG guage showed I was
>getting 50, 60 even 70 MPG.
LOL, Only when you let off the gas and coast in 5th gear :{
HCH Manual - 20144
EX Manual - 16064
Difference 4080
Assuming 15000 miles per year, Gas as paid today $1.75.
Years to recoup difference when comparing 48 MPG for HCH and 35 for EX - 20 years
Years to recoup difference when comparing your 56 MPG on HCH versus 35 for EX - 14.5 years
Graphicguy with the 12-15 years was generous as of today with real data looks as though 14-20 years would be more accurate. That is a tough pill to swallow from an economic standpoint especially if you throw in new batteries to purchase for the HCH during that time period.
Go ahead if you'd like, but according to any reasonable person an EX and HCH Manual transmission cars are roughly equally equipped feature-wise. Not exact, but advantages on HCH or EX for certain features on either car. 15k miles a year is considered normal for an average driver. If you like forget the years just go with miles. The breakeven point would fall between 217,500 and 300,000 miles. For you, that may come at "only" 10 to 15 years.
Thanks, yes the years to overcome the difference are once again 14-20, and economically not competitive. Enjoy your vehicle, but economically you lost out, no doubt about it. Even the most hardcore hybrid owners admit that there is no economic justification to hybrids at this time. In the future, it may be different.
Lets try your computation again with the 25% inflated MPG numbers for the EX:
Your HCH: 150K/58MPG= 2,586gallonsx x $2.05= $5,301
EX: 150K/44MPG= 4,054gallons x $2.05= $6,989
$8,310-$6,989=
$1321 gas savings for the HCH.
Based on only a 2700 difference in prices much less than on Carsdirect.com -(could get you $1500 in accessories for the EX) , that takes the recoup mileage about 300,000 miles. Forget it, the magic math won't help you.
--if you insist that regualar 'ole Civics are selling at or near MSRP (which they certainly are not)
--if you insist that, aside from the drivetrain, a hybrid Civic is something more akin to a Lexus or Caddy (which it isn't)...it's still a Civic.
--if you insist that your MPG is somehow more on average than just about every other professional test report
Enjoy your hybrid. It's a fine car. Please don't try to use some convoluted magic math (as bamacar points out) to try to make a financial case for it. The logic just can't be made.
Don't know how many more ways to point it out.
BTW...I filled up last night for a $1.60/gal.
I also find it interesting that he is boasting about having to make fewer stops for gas and yet he is comparing his current ride to a former clunker Dodge Spirit that was far from fuel efficient. A regular Civic would have decreased his gas stops by almost as much.
What part of the country are they selling gas for $1.60?
#784 of 786 Re: exercise in futility [gagrice #783] by graphicguy Jun 19, 2004 (2:16 pm)
Costco.....soutwest OH is selling gas for $1.60/gal.
The latest AAA Numbers give OH an average for Unleaded of $1.80.
I expect the lowest prices in OH to be well below 1.70. 1.60 at COSTCO does not seem impossible.
I usually fill my tank at a big Fuel mart off I-80 near TOledo when i drive across OH. They are always more than 10c less than any other station on I-80.
Floor mats are also standard.
And, how, for the life of me you can advertise over 60 MPG is beyond me.
I know I would never tell one of my prospective customers..." I know a guy who gets..."
There has been a "hullabaloo" surrounding the Prius "only" averaging low to mid 40s MPG. I suspect that a Civic hybrid would get similar numbers on average (not a brief 15-50 mile run).
Those hybrid numbers aren't too far off what I was able to get with my regular Civic. I would imagine any hybrid would, on average, get between 10%-15% better MPG over time. Remember, the MSRP sticker MPG numbers have rarely been a reliable guage of real world MPG.
Still, not nearly enough to offset the extra cost of purchasing a hybrid.
First fill-up on my Vibe (matrix) netted 34 MPG in mixed driving.
My RX8, on the other hand, struggles to break 20 MPG in mixed driving. Best I've done with it was 25 MPG in all highway.
Regarding gas prices...I travel to CA quite a bit for business. In the area around my neighborhood (southwest OH), gas prices have always been about 30 cents to 40 cents, sometimes 50 cents cheaper per gallon that what I noticed in the Bay Area. I'vew found that Costcos around here always at least match, most of the time beat, the best gas prices available from "regular" gas stations.