Honda Civic Hybrid

hybriddriver

Consumer Reports probably drove the hybrid hard in performance testing and at high highway speeds. I wonder what Consumer Reports got for the Civic VP? Probably a lot lower than the 34-36 MPG that you have been getting. In my experience I have been getting 42-46 MPG with my 2004 CVT HCH.

rperry3

We've had a civic hybrid since May. My wife's commute is almost sixty miles each way so better mileage (upper 40's), even though some consider it a marginal improvement, is appreciated. The main reason we bought the hybrid over the gas only model we were originally shopping for is that the state of Maryland waives its 5% sales tax on alternate fuel vehicles. That meant we drove it off the lot for about $18,300. That price may be a bit more than an LX but it is definitely less than an EX. We like it enough that we are considering replacing our 1996 Civic with a hybrid Accord. That is, if we are still getting the tax break.

hondahovman

I have not seen one post in regards to Virgina's HOV rules for hybrids and that's ashame!
I live 62 miles from work (WASH DC) and I have saved hundreds of dollars in gas versus my now traded in Subaru Impreza 2.5RS (God bless that car and its snowplow mentality).
I won't bother going into detail about this being my first Honda and how impressed I am in build quality, etc. Let's cut straight to the chase:
HOV use by a one passengered vehicle in the Washington D.C. metro area is priceless. I make it to work in about 80 minutes and that is an impossible pipedream without the time traveling HOV lane.
Now, throw in the great gas milage (45-48 typically), the money saved in gas, the FEDERAL TAX CREDIT, and I am very, very pleased with my $17,000 Hybrid (remember that tax credit knocks off two grand come April).
The HOV rule is the sole reason I opted for the hybrid over the Volkswagon TDI.
Here in D.C. (I live just south and west of Manassas) the choice is clear:hybrid.

redbaron42

This is for hondahovman #586

You wrote the following: "Now, throw in the great gas milage (45-48 typically), the money saved in gas, the FEDERAL TAX CREDIT, and I am very, very pleased with my $17,000 Hybrid (remember that tax credit knocks off two grand come April)."

Have you done your 2003 Tax Returns and can you certify that you are going to get this tax credit? I have read IRS Publication # 535 and it says: "You must complete and attach Form 8834 to your tax return to claim the electric vehicle credit."
An electric vehicle is defined as follows: "It is a motor vehicle powered primarily by an electric motor drawing current from rechargeable batteries, fuel cells, or other sources of electrical current."
Knowing that the Honda Hybrid is powered primarily by a gasolene engine with an electrical assist, how is this Tax Credit even allowable?
I would welcome anyone's experience with this IRS tax credit.

john1701a

There is not a CREDIT available for hybrids.

It is actually just a DEDUCTIBLE.

So the $2000 really only translates to a few hundred dollars that you get back.

JOHN

john1701a

> but please put a sign on your car that warns people that
> you run your tires at extreme pressure.

If the tires are rated for 44 PSI, so what's extreme about actually using that?

And remember that's the max is a cold rating, designed to take much higher PSI as the tires heat up.

JOHN

john1701a

A word of warning about using tire pressure.

For every 10F degree drop, PSI decreases by 1.

That catches quite a few people off guard with the arrival of winter. They have no idea their PSI dropped below the safety threshold. Too soft is actually more dangerous than too hard.

Another benefit of running higher PSI is the fact that tires naturally leak. So without even a temperature change, the tires will soften anyway.

So running a little above the standard pressure does have its benefits.

JOHN

pat

It's always a good idea to back up our posts stating what the "experts" or "pros" say with links ...

That said, we need to not stray too far into a tires debate as that is not the subject of our discussion. We have a terrific Tires, Tires, Tires discussion over on our Aftermarket & Accessories board.

lngtonge18

Hmm...I surely hope that you aren't referring to tire shops as the "pros". These people are absolute morons. I'd be very interested to see what "data" you have to back yourself up. I'd also like to hear what Toyota and Honda says when questioned if there are any cons (besides ride harshness) to running 44 or 51 psi on their cars. Here's a link backing myself up:

http://www.tiresafety.com/service/serv_nav1b.htm#recip

And I quote, "Proper inflation pressure is essential for achieving maximum performance and mileage. Improper tire inflation pressure can cause severe internal tire damage, which can lead to sudden tire failure and resulting in serious personal injury or death."

Yes, underinflation is worse due to heat buildup, but overinflation can be bad as well. As I said before, there is no issue with increasing the pressure a little (handling does improve with a few extra psi), but 10 psi or more is asking for trouble. Here is a quote from AAA: "Overinflation shortens tire life and can make vehicle handling seem "light" or "skittish," particularly on wet roads". Hmm..is this not EXACTLY what I mentioned as experiences I encountered in my cars? Per Tire Rack, "If your tires are overinflated by 6 psi, they could be damaged more easily when running over potholes or debris in the road." This was something I hadn't brought up yet, but wheels can be bent more easily and internal tire damage occurs easier due to causing the tires to "work harder" (in your own words) when going over bumps and other road debris.

I found numerous websites all saying the same thing. They ALL said to follow the car manufacturers rating for maximum tire performance UNLESS you switched to different size tires. But, hey, if you want to risk having an issue, then that's your decision. I'm simply letting those more concerned with safety know the dangers involved.

john1701a

> I surely hope that you aren't referring to tire shops as
> the "pros".

No, actually I know of someone that took a performance driving class (which is why I couldn't provide a link).

 
> I'd also like to hear what Toyota and Honda says

They say "no comment". Which is normal. Automakers almost always follow the path of least liability.

JOHN

lngtonge18

Please follow the link that misterme provided. I think you'll find quite a few people saying exactly what I have. I have yet to see anyone supporting your point of view. By the way, I did visit a website that mentioned performance driving. It stated that increased pressure will help handling on dry pavement up to a point. In other words, handling doesn't continue to get better the more air you put in the tires. The increase slows down and then turns into a negative after a certain point. And this does not pertain to wet roads. You want as much tread on the ground as possible when driving on slick roads. But I don't suppose your friend informed you of these things.

Anywho, maybe someone learned something out of all this. I personally will not risk my safety or others just to achieve amazing fuel economy.

john1701a

> You want as much tread on the ground as possible
> when driving on slick roads.

And as I already stated, for my particular tests with my particular tires on my particular car there is clear proof that maximum coverage is achieved.

I was hoping it would be obvious that not all types of tires & vehicles are the same.

JOHN

lngtonge18

Um..ok, continue to believe your specific car and specific tires somehow manage to defy the laws of physics and traction. Yes, some tires are better then others as far as traction is concerned, but no matter how good the tires are or how well balanced the car is they can't work properly if underinflated or overinflated. Are you ignoring all the info I dug up for you? I mean, you haven't said a word about all the very interesting tidbits I found. It's as if you think, "well, I've never run into problems so all this stuff must just be overexaggeration or made up". The fact remains, light small cars were not designed to run on tires inflated real high. There simply isn't enough weight to push the tire down enough so there is the proper amount of contact patch. That's why some cars recommend a higher number when carrying a full load.

I ask you to do a few simple tests. Take your Prius up to 60 mph and drive through a large puddle of standing water, once with your pressure at the correct level and then a second time at 44 psi. Next, take your Prius to an empty parking lot after a heavy downpour. Now, accelerate up to about 30 or so and then make a sudden sharp sweeping turn, first at the recommended level and then at 44. In both instances, I'm willing to bet anything that you will notice the skittish unsafe handling characateristics more at the higher psi. Yes, these aren't things you normally encounter and are a bit extreme. But the whole point is, you have no control over unforeseen events and its in these instances that you will run into problems with tire pressures significantly higher then recommended.

Ok, Pathost, I swear thats the end of it. If he doesn't want to acknowledge the good points made here, then there's no point trying to convince him.

john1701a

> The fact remains, light small cars were not designed
> to run on tires inflated real high

EV1 used 60 PSI tires, and that was the recommended PSI.

 
> overinflated

The real problem is the definition for that term has been lost... hence the misunderstanding.

 
> I ask you to do a few simple tests.

I already have. That's why I'm standing strong about my findings.

After driving almost 60,000 miles while experimenting with PSI on the same commute over and over and over again, I have observed the handling differences.

What it really boils down to is tire differences. Obviously, not all rubber formulas are the same, yet many tires all state a similar maximum PSI. They do that to fit them into certain categories. Some really do perform better than others.

The definition of "overflating" is unique for each specific tire.

JOHN

pat

Ahem....

Tires, Tires, Tires

:-)

(and this is not the place to talk about Prius' either...)

(or is it Priuses? Oops, wrong discussion for that question. But I bet Priuses is correct! )

lok888

Hi folks,

I am doing a research on hybrid cars for my friend. I haven't contacted any Honda dealer yet. But I spoke with my sales rep in a Toyota dealer about the Toyota Prius. It is not only that they are selling at MSRP (I heard some dealers are selling over sticker). There is also a 7 to 12 months wait. When I was doing some research on Edmunds, the true cost to own of Civic hybrid is actually more than the non-hybrid Civic, plus the initial cost to buy like $4K more than non-hybrid. So is this all we are paying for clean air. Some may say what about the gas mileage. But Edmunds showed only $1000+ different in 5 years period between hybrid and gasoline powered Civic. Any help or comments on this?

bd21

It sounds like you made a well thought out decision that was right for you. Congratulations and I think if you take care of your Civic,
 you will be able to get over 200K miles or 13 to 15 years of cost effective driving out of it. Good luck and enjoy.

braindeadjon1

Check out this link:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4265482/

The article basically says that this guy's hybrid civic was stolen BUT "There was no sign of a break-in and no sign anyone had tampered with the ignition cylinder. But the gas tank was empty.." How is an undriveable car (without the right keys due to the anti-theft system) taken on what appears to be a joy ride?

Anyone have any ideas?

hch2004

Needed a 2nd car. Wanted something that could get me to and from work. Wanted good gas mileage. Wanted to be able to access HOV lanes (a must in DC/VA). Wanted something that looked nice (didn't like the prius at all). Wanted something that drove nice (my CVT is real quiet and smooth). Wanted something "reasonably" priced (can get it out the door for about or under $20K). Wanted something "green." Even if it gets only a little better gas mileage, pollutes a little less, and reduces America's dependence on foreign oil just a little bit, that's good enough for me.

Sylvia

A California reporter is looking to interview any California resident who has owned a Honda Civic Hybrid, Honda Insight or Toyota Prius.
Please respond to jfallon@edmunds.com by Tuesday, Feb 24, 2004 with your daytime contact info if you care to share your story.
Thanks,
Jeannine Fallon
PR Director
Edmunds.com

hibrien

Hi, I am brand new to Edmunds.com. I just purchased
a 2004 civic hybrid cvt under invoice price- total
of 20k out the door including 300 in misc fees, 460
in destination charges, and Calif sales tax of 8% included. I just emailed about a dozen Honda dealers
and asked about inventory and prices. It was easier to get a good price and faster response from the dealers directly rather than a third party. I did not get anywhere with Edumunds, Autonation, Autobyetel, and others. Each of the Honda dealers had inventory sitting on the lot, and it was really easy to find and get a car.
I really wanted a Prius, but all dealers were sold out. The civic has been fine. I have driven the car for one thousand miles, and have averaged 40 mpg. The stock Bridgestone tires have to go though. Does anyone have any recommendations for after market anti thieft and car alarms? Thanks.

pat

Consumers' Most Wanted Vehicles for 2004 Survey is posted and ready for your input!

pupmar

I have a 2003 hybrid (blue) that has badly chipping paint on the fascia, hood, and fenders--I have seen this on other hybrids but not really on "regular" civics. Anyone else seem to have excessive stone chipping?

pepmeister

I am interesting in buying the civic hybrid, but I am worried the car might not have much power to clumb hills. Can any civic hybrid owners out there tell me their experience taking the civic up hills? Powerful enough, or does the car seem weak? I live in LA and would take the car over the Sepulveda pass or over the grapevine along Hwy 5. That climb is about 4000 ft elevation gain in maybe 30-40 miles. Anybody have experience with even steeper or longer climbs than that? I'm thinking of driving in the Sierras, Colorado, areas like that. Thanks

hvy

just test drove hybrid cvt. impressed so far. i commute around 25-30 thousand miles a yr. can anyone tell if there are advantages to the manual,other than the mileage as far as dependability of both. has anyone had to replace the batteries and if so what is replacement cost

automite

have 2004 hybrid manual with 400 miles and just wanted to mention [especially to honda engineers]it would have been nice if honda made the drain plug and filter more accessible to owners who like to change their own oil. you have to remove an underbody cover attached with 9 plastic fasteners to get at the drain plug. not much ground clearance to do this without using ramps[which i have never used]. also leaves more to screw up if you take it to dealer for oil change and they fail to reattach all fasteners properly. fyi- hybrid uses 0w-20w weight. also, i noticed town hall discussions on toyota prius where there was no problem axcessing drain plug and filter.

hybriddriver

Did the dealer fix that rattle under the right side of the dashboard? If so, do you know what was making the noise? Was it fixed under warranty? My car has the same rattle.
Thanks.

automite

check out the latest issue of motor trend magazine where they compare all current hybrid models. they talk about vibration from roof pillar plastic rubbing against dashboard plastic. i have same noise. there solution was to try remounting pillar plastic cover and adding some felt where parts rub together when driving on rough roads.

breatheasy

I live in the Dallas TX area and perched a Civic Hybrid about 4 weeks ago. This was a real adjustment for me since I have driven a 3/4 ton truck for the past 12 years. I was always under the assumption that hybrids would not have enough power to get out of their own way. I was wrong. I am a limit plus 5 driver and find that my Hybrid preforms great with my normal habits. Before I perched I read thru most of this site and noted a conversation about tire pressure. The sidewalls say 51 psi, dealership usually sets around 35 psi. At first I was getting around 39/42 mpg. When I took my car back for window tinting I had them raise to 45 psi, mpg jumped to 47/51. The ride is a little rougher but I'm use to that coming from a truck. This week I raised psi to 50 the ride is the same as at 45 but mpg is up to 53. All of the above is in Dallas stop and go traffic with the Air Conditioning on.

blueiedgod

the tire pressure on the sidewall, i think, is the maximum allowable tire pressure for the particular tire. By setting your cold tire pressure to 50 psi, you are setting your self for a nasty blow out once the tires have fully warmed up. increase in temp will increase the pressure by up to 50%. I would strongly suggest you go by what the door jamb sticker says. if you want the hardest tire ever, get ones with stiffer sidewalls, like runflats, but that will increase your rotational inertia and will slwo you down. or solid rubber tires, i am sure the pickup would be terrible but the gas savings will be immense. the ride will be like that of a car being driven on rail road pleats.

meyervilla

I hear that toyota dealers are selling Priuses to the highest bidder on their list. Good luck in getting one!

meyervilla

During the '70s I owned a diesel Corolla that got 42 MPG without all of the hybrid complication. The worst it ever got was 38 MPG. Why not try diesel? 40% of the cars sold in Europe are diesel-powered. They use a low-sulphur diesel fuel that is not available here. The answer may be to lease a hybrid.

blueiedgod

With a diesel engine one can fill up with used frying oil for free, or biodiesel made from renewable sources. Originally Diesel designed his engine to run on anything including a water/coal emulsion. The low sulphur fuels will be available here by 2005-6, but probably at a cost. Right now, a VW TDI gets about 50 mpg, and Honda Diesel/Toyota Diesel in europe is not far behind.

I don't think people want to deal with the diesel because of the image it portrays. Even though new diesels are clean and relativeley vibration free, people still have their fears.

crv16

I think you're safe at 45psi, however you will see a couple problems. First, the return to center will not work as well at high tire pressure. Meaning when you take a turn, and let go of the wheel, it will not return back to center as quickly as it would under more normal pressures. Tracking down the highway will be affected -- meaning it will be more "skittish" -- lots of little corrections will be needed to keep going in a straight line.

Also, your tires will wear abnormally - the centers of the tires will wear out before the edges. I saw this happen on my old Accord - that was rated for 28 psi (I think), and I usually ran it around 32psi. After 35,000 miles, the centers were worn about 1/16th of an inch more than the edges.

I'm seeing the same with my Civic - I keep it about 33 psi, and the centers are definately starting to wear a little more than the edges (16k miles).

breatheasy

You are right about the tire pressure. After driving around for a week I noticed undesirable handling with quick stops and rain. I was also having to make the steering adjustments you mentioned. I lowered pressure back to 40 psi.

lucas

Bought one last week. Not much to report yet.

Sure would like the views of some who have had one for a while.

What mpg?

automite

have 800 miles on my manual trans. now that weather is warming up, i'm getting 50mpg city pretty regular. my car was on lot for about 6 months before i bought it. battery under hood needed charging. didn't show full charge till about 500 miles. i notice that rechargable battery pack didn't get to a fully charged state till about 750 miles of driving. love driving hybrids. like playing a video game, trying to squeez every bit of mpg from gallon of gas. had a 2002 toyota prius which i also liked. honda uses the electric mode quite differently from toyota. honda electric mode is there to assist the gas engine, where toyota will run on electric mode only on certain conditions.

Kirstie_H

New article at Edmunds.com
Hot Hybrids

sf_driver

Has anyone managed to get the Civic fog lights installed into their Civic Hybrid?
Thx!

isellhondas

How could that make a difference??

Of course, a leadfoot will get worse mileage than a gentle driver.

Hondas for some reason seem to get better MPG as the miles accumulate. Try checking it again after 5000 miles.

bd21

I find it very hard to believe you are getting 14 miles more per gallon than the car is rated for. You must be driving 30 MPH on the interstate. It may be possible to get 55 MPG, but even that would take a lot of effort. Are you sure you are calculating your gas mileage correctly? If you are going by the car's computer, you are not getting the most accurate measure of your cars gas mileage. Next time you what to know what your car's gas mileage really is try this. Go to a specific gas station and pump. Fill the car up until the pump clicks off on the first click. Zero out the trip meter and drive at least 300 miles or so and return to the exact same pump parking in the exact same place. Fill up on until the pump clicks off the first time and divide the miles driven by the exact amount of gas you added to the tank. I suspect you will discover you are actually getting around 51 MPG on the highway , if you are at least driving the speed limit.

crv16

The US Govt is testing four Honda Civic Hybrids.

The four Civics are still being tested in 2 fleets in Arizona. As of the end of November 2003, they have been driven 248,000 miles and the cumulative average fuel economy for the four Civics is 38.1 miles per gallon.



http://avt.inel.gov/hcfart.html



This study is both valid, and disappointing. My NON-HYBRID 2003 Honda Civic EX averages 37mpg in the winter, and 40mpg in the summer.

bhill2

I would be more than interested in how these Civics are being driven. This mileage is not even in the ballpark with what other drivers are reporting. Also, it is about 10 MPG less than I got in my '81 diesel Rabbit driving the snot out of it. Do hybrids require very special driving techniques to get high mileage?

stevedebi

My 2002 Civic EX is only getting 27 MPG in town, and maybe 33 highway, for an average of about 28.

budd

I just bought a Hybrid and it had 44 lbs in the tires when I got it home. I was told 30 lbs was the correct pressure and that is what I am using. I have 1050 miles on the car and am averaging 45 mpg. I just sold my 2002 Dodge Ram 4-door (8 mpg in town) and I am very happy with the Hybrid. My last fill-up I tried to get the best mileage I could and for 100 miles in town I averaged 70 mpg. I drive differently than I did with the big pickup, not as aggressive. May be why I only got 8 mpg with my Dodge. I tried the Toyota Scion which is not available in this area until June and found it gutless. I wanted to try the Toyota Hybrid but there is a 10 month waiting list. So since I sold my truck and I wanted the best mileage I could get I bought the Honda.

badgerfan

I don't own a HCH but I have to comment on your 100 mile mileage check. There is no way you are going to be accurate on determining your mileage in that short an interval. If you filled your tank, then drove 100 miles and put only 1.43 gallons into the tank to refill it to get your "70 mpg", your accuracy is going to be potentially way off, depending on how the tank was topped off. Don't believe any electronic dash mpg readout either, as these tend to be grossly in error.

You have to fill the tank, drive at least 3/4 tank, then refill, at least your top-off error will be lower. Better yet, do this for two or three refills and average that total miles/total gallons used.

midnightcowboy

___Driving for great MPG in a hybrid isn't much different than driving any car for great mileage. One big advantage is a clear, accurate, easy to read FCD to game with. I beleive if ALL cars had these we'd all save billions $$$ no matter what is driven.

I had one in my M3 and it didn' help. I also have one in my IS300 and it doesn't help either. I seem to drive to the cars abilitiy, which obviuosly varies depending on the car.

I really like the 5- speed Insight and have been trying to get one. I like the 5-speed HCH also. However, from a cost praticality standpoint I think the 5-speed Toyota Corolla CE is the best bang fro the buck.

I once had two 1985 CRXs The first was the HF and the second was the Si. I almost enjoyed the HF as much.

However, my current daily commute is about 25 miles: 10 miles at 80 mph, 10 miles at 60 mph and 5 miles stop-n-go 30-45.

I think it was Misterme that said it only adds 15 minutes to his 40 mile commute. That is an extra half-hour a day. And by your remarks of avoiding 70mph highways I assume you drive slow also.

My goal would be to continue to drive exactly as I currently do, but get much better mileage. Pure and simple. I do not want to add an additional 30 minutes to 1hour to my daily commute.

That being said I reall like the HCH, but the out the door price on the Corolla is about $8,000 less. $8,000 buys a whole lot of gas even at $2, $2.5 or $3.00 a gallon.

Thanks,
MidCow

midnightcowboy

You disproved yourself. Only being off +/- 2 mpg is still a 10% error on a 20 mpg average or a 6.7 % error on a 30 mpg average.

Average Mpg is usually pretty accurate, instantaneous is mostly worthless.

However, the funniest thread response ever was when a person wanted to calculate mileage based on the stored up energy of the battery and not divide the total gallons by the total miles travelled. Any even funnier, the person was actaully serious.

I like the story about the fellow who got a VW and his friends would add a gallon of gas to his tank each day and he was extremely elated and bragging about his mileage. Until the next month when they took away a gallon of gas each day.

YMMV,

MidCow

budd

Hybriddriver, you state that the Civic requires an oil change every 10,000 miles. I have the extended warranty and a booklet that requires oil changes every 5000 miles that has to be stamped at the Honda dealer to keep the warranty in effect. Also was warned about going to quick change lube places because of a special gasket on the oil filter that only the Honda dealer carries and could void the warranty if not changed each time. I know the readout on the dash is not accurate but it is fun to try to get the highest mpg reading for as long as you can. I had the readout on my Dodge truck in the overhead but it was so bad I quit looking at it and put up the temperature/direction instead. I manually check the mileage at each fill up and the readout has been plus/minus .02 mpg every time. I am now keeping 31.5 lbs in each tire. The sticker on the door post reads 30 psi in each but it had 44 psi in the front and 41 psi in the back when I took delivery.

chayes

There are two recommended maint. sched. depending on your driving conditions (specified in the book). If you are in constant stop-and-go, then 5k is when you need to bring the HCH for maintenance. Otherwise, it's 10k. So, for warranty purposes, 10k is the minimum. And you don't need to have your manual stamped, as long as you keep your receipts.

Do most folks do 5k or 10K?