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Comments
"The best guess is that they may be announced in April or thereabouts. Keep track of the auto shows -- New York for example."
Does anyone have any recent and reliable information? I would not expect Infiniti sales and marketing representatives to provide a potential customer with justification to delay a purchase.
Your replies will be appreciated.
"In fact, if it bothers you that much, I'd recommend forgetting about the car and go get an Audi or Lexus. This car is cheap relative to its performance for those who want its performance.
There are many nice cars on the market for those who prefer luxury features and are willing to give up the performance.
If you want both luxury and performance, come up with another several thousand dollars: again, there are several really nice cars available, but not at this price."
[END OF QUOTE]
Could anyone suggest a reliable GT 2+2 Coupe with manual transmission and RWD or AWD that combines luxury and performance yet is still under $45k?
So far, I have investigated the BWM 330ci and speculated about a possible Audi A4 3.0 Coupe. What else should I consider? Perhaps a low mileage Lexus SC400 or SC300?
Your replies will be appreciated.
the TT coupe is a "2+2" though the +2 would have to be legless.
the Acura CL-S counts by your description though fwd wouldn't be my choice.
What of the M-B? Would you consider the Crossfire?
Not a lot of choice. Sorry.
JW
Like Jwilson said, the MB CLK320 isn't on your list. It would have a more traditionaly luxury interior than the G35C.
Here's a long shot for you: The MB C320 (or C230 Kompressor) coupe (misnamed, because it's actually a Hatchback). This is the C320 sedan with the trunk chopped off. MB can't give them away, so you can get a huge discount. I test drove the C320 and it is a whole lot of car. If I could have dealt with the "hatchback" image, I could have been very, very happy with that car. From the C pillar forward, it's basically a C320 sedan, which is a GOOD thing. Outstanding back seat, full-roof panorama sunroof, terrific balance of ride and handling, lots of cargo room and flexibility, the superb 320 six-cylinder with a sportmatic 5-speed automatic engine, rear-wheel drive, long-wheel base, and 4 years of maintenance and warranty. All for under $30k.
But in the end, I think my heart belongs to the G35C. Sigh. It's ironic that I'm passing on all these great discounts to go after a car that's so in demand that I can't even get a test drive!
I've also driven the now-discontinued Lexus SC300/SC400, and they are fantastic cars. But the 10-year old body style now leaves me cold. If it looks good to you, they're a terrific value, IMHO.
Happy hunting!
You are not alone. I passed up some heavily discounted cars(Acura CL typeS) myself until I decided to go with the G35coupe. The vehicle MSRP was 34,995, I can't think of any 2+2 coupe out there(for the same money) that offers such a great combination of luxury and power. The 330ci gives an excellent combination of luxury and power but when you add up all the options you are no where near 35k and the insurance is much higher on the BMW than the coupe(in NJ)
Subaru wagons with a boxer engine, are equipped with strut suspensions in the front and the rear. Struts are not an ideal setup for handling on the road, even though the engine itself, would lower the CG significantly. The competing wagons have dramatically better suspension setups.
The NSX with the V6, equipped with the double wishbone suspension in the front and the rear, handles fabulously. If it were equipped with a boxer engine, with even lower CG, it would have handled even better. Similarly, if the NSX V6 were to be fitted onto a Subaru, it would handle worse than it does now, since the V6 would raise the CG much higher than with the current boxer engine layout, thus degrading stability.
Engine alone does not ensure handling, even though some engines lower the CG much more than others, thus increasing the stability of the car, which in turn could improve handling, if the suspension is setup right.
Later...AH
The Acura CL-S had been my choice before I became fascinated with the G35C. At that time, I assumed I could only buy a FWD vehicle with AT, such as the Toyota Camry Solara or Honda Accord Coupe EX-V6. These models offer desirable cargo space. Too bad the CL will be discontinued. Wonder if the Acura TSX will ever be available as a coupe? Not sure if the NSX has RWD, but it would not be affordable in any case.
With an 8 cylinder engine, the 4 door Audi S4 Quattro offers great performance. I will wait until the Audi A4 3.0 Coupe is available before I decide.
As I recall, the MB CLK models I examined either were 4 door sedans or had AT.
I feel the Audi TT (159.1”) and Chrysler Crossfire (159.8”) would be too small and not practical for my regular use.
The MB C230 Kompressor (171.0”) offers more luxury than the FWD Acura RSX (172.2”). My reservation was with C230 exterior styling.
Supposedly, there is a distinction between a notchback and a hatchback. I would actually prefer another vehicle as my dependable 1983 Toyota Celica GT liftback (176.6”). This car has RWD, 5 speed stick and a sleek, wedge design. The luggage space is 16.9 cf, or 25.7 cf with the rear seats folded down. (Cargo space on the G35C is 7.8 cf)
So it looks like I will defer my purchase of a G35C for another year. Meanwhile, I can check out the new Toyota Supra to see if that might appeal to me.
My previous car, a 2002 BMW 530i, was recently stolen, stripped, and subsequently totalled by the insurance company. I was/am a big BMW fan, but I simply felt the G35 offered the most bang for the buck, compared to the 3-series coupe. Admittedly, the G35--while certainly excellent--isn't as ultra-refined as the 3/5-series. The interior materials aren't of the same caliber, the engine isn't as smooth, the brakes aren't as linear. Then again, the nav system is better than BMW's, the engine is more powerful, and the beefy brakes yank the car to a stop with tremendous authority when summoned.
And, of course, the car is tremendously fun to drive. I'm still acclimating to the very short-throw stick, but I'm liking it more and more. I can't wait until the break-in period subsides, allowing me to dig deeper into the engine's power band.
I also look forward to learning from (and contributing to) the knowledge base about this car.
Cheers.
However, a new color has been added for orders starting this week. It is the Twilight Blue color that was originally on the sedan, cancelled, and brought back to the sedan in either March or April. It is on the coupe for the first time. If you do a search on the G35 forum at freshalloy.com you can probably find a link to someone's TB sedan - they are rare. Or check imagestation.com as well
What camera?
I don't agree with the previous posters who said the VQ would not be at home in an NSX or Boxster style "sports car."
thank you
Host
At any rate, I'm bitterly jealous of you and your gorgeous ride. Congrats!
Twilight Blue: latest word (dfw_infiniti on freshalloy) is that Infiniti has changed their mind, and the Twilight Blue won't be available on the G35C until the 2004 MY. MAJOR BUMMER for me; that would have been my first choice color.
Near as I can glean from freshalloy posts, the Brembos ARE included in the Performance Tire/Wheel Package. Which means that your $650 gets you the 18" tires & wheels, Brembo brakes, a torsen limited slip differential, and the titanium interior trim. This seems too good to be true. Any coupe owners that can confirm?
Is that what you were going to get?
Tires on the performance package cannot be rotated without removing and remounting each tire on the rim .. that is also another little bit of an expense. about $100 a rotation.
NOTE:
I am shocked how cheap the ins is on this car. I thought it would be far more expensive than the ES300 which is a 4 door with the same MSRP
- Mark
What do you all think?
I wouldn't rule out performance modifications (e.g. AWD or supercharged engines) on Infiniti products, but the company as a whole doesn't seem to warrant a single-minded pursuit of higher performance by forming a high-strung tuning division.
JW
Infiniti has finally managed to come up with their first car (G35 coupe) that is - in the eyes of some, but not all - competitive with the basic BMW 3-series. They should now work on cleaning up the rest of their basic line-up before trying to compete in the rarified air of BMW Motorsports or AMG.
That would be like me saying I'm ready to take on Tiger because I happened to birdie the 18th hole of my last round (for a score of 80).
On the other hand, while they're doing the nitty gritty of developing the '05 M45 (its own design, not a rebadge), and doing 'something' about the Q45, and working on the next FX series redesign for, oh, '06 or '07, they are in a hot and extremely fluid environment for performance cars; they need to keep something going for the enthusiasts who will support them if they provide the product.
They're on a tightrope, imo. R-Spec would be sort of an answer, letting a tuning shop keep the halo around the entry models so corporate can develop one model at a time, about all a small company can reasonably do, imo.
JW
Case in point. I recently received a post purchase survey from BMW that was being conducted by the same research firm that does market research for our company. I called the director to find out what the results were. Interestingly, he could not reveal who sponsored the research, but implied that it was a Japanese premium brand company. According to him, the median (not mean)income of a BMW M5 buyer is approximately $500,000 and the median net worth is approximately $4 million. Same goes for the AMG E55. The M3 results were very intesting: the "lower half" of buyers had a mean income of $150k and net worth of around $600k, but the "upper half" of buyers had a median income of $350k and net worth of $2.5 million.
I have a business associate who spends 4-5 months living in Tokyo, the rest in Europe/USA. He drives a Skyline in Japan, but would be the first to say it offers none of the refinement of an M5.
Rightly or wrongly, most buyers of M5's AMG's are not likely to buy a Skyline or upgraded Infiniti just on the basis of performance. The refinement level and heritage are just not comparable.
I agree with the suggestion that Infiniti would be bette off taking their relative success in the G35 coupe and applying a higher level of effort to the M45 and Q45 lines. The M45 in particular was a loser coming out of the box. I know of several people - my niece included - who thought the G35 coupe was a competitive alternative to the 3-series. I know of no one who would take an M45 over a 540i.
294 (4.1%)
2,769 (31.4%)
2,122 (26.2%)
2,269 (29.5%)
1,429 (18.0%)
2,328 (21.8%)
1,756 (19.8%)
In addition, Infiniti in North America sold 29,590 of the G35 Sedan during 2002 and 11,039 since the beginning of this year. The following are the reported monthly sales figures from October 2002 through April 2003, respectively, along with its percentage of total Infiniti sales for that month:
2,696 (37.7%)
2,613 (29.6%)
2,815 (34.8%)
2,474 (32.2%)
2,411 (30.4%)
3,325 (31.1%)
2,830 (31.9%)
By comparison, the Nissan in North America sold 13,253 of the 350Z during 2002 and 13,215 through April of this year, including 3,479 last month.
Here are my questions:
1. What were the predicted initial year sales figures for the G35 Coupe?
2. Will Infiniti expand production of the Coupe, or will Infiniti instead restrict its production to limit the supply and maintain dealer allocations?
3. Is Infiniti justified if it raised the price of the Coupe for 2004 because of increased demand, assuming stable energy prices and foreign exchange rates?
4. Is the size of the market for a $30k to $40k luxury coupe sufficient to allow competition from Audi (A4) or Lexus (IS), who are supposedly planning to introduce models within the next year, along with the current BMW choices?
Sorry for combining these related questions into a single post. Would anyone care to provide their economic analysis?
1. Initial sales projections for the coupe were 12K for the year, and for the sedan 30K. So they have both exceeded expectations (the sedan was on sale for 9.5 months in 2002)
2. Infiniti did announce they were increasing production of the coupe. Rumor has it there will be 16K, but I don't recall seeing an official figure.
3. There are also rumors of a significant (1K or more) increase in the G35 (both versions) coming for 04. Is it justified? Well, I would say it probably is, esp. for the coupe. But it depends on what Infiniti would like to do - continue to sell it for near MSRP, or raise the price some and offer a bit of a discount.
4. I think the IS would need to be bigger to be a serious threat. IMHO, many comments I've read comparing the G sedan to the IS start with "the IS is too small...." But that's just from memory....
Infiniti and Lexus were born out of a competitive desire to unseat the established European makes (primarily BMW and MB) as the de-facto premium car manufacturers. They couldn't (and still can't) compete on "heritage," but many of their products compete very well in the domains of features and performance, relative to price.
So, a hyper-tuned Neon (no matter how much power can be extracted from its 4-banger) is no real threat to M or AMG. But, if the Japanese manufacturers make a concerted effort at producing high-performance premium cars (as opposed to high-strung Civics), I think they could steal valuable market share away from the Europeans. Then again, with the outrageous horsepower wars going on in Europe (469hp in an E-class?), they're keeping themselves smartly ahead of the curve.
The STi and Evo have that market cornered for those who don't want luxury interiors. Think again if you think none of the people on the STi waiting list would have bought M3's if the STi wasn't available. The M3 was considered bargin performance a while ago.
www.blert.net/ai/4.html
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JW
As for the STi stealing a few sales from the M3, I guess it's possible. But I personally wouldn't trade my Honda S2000 for 2 STi's even up. I just can't get past the Subaru boy racer looks. I guess it's a function of being over 40, but I wouldn't have gone for it at 20, either. And given that all of these horsepower and performance wars are creating a bunch of cars that will never be able to be driven anywhere near their full potential on streets, I'd prefer to drive something that was a bit more refined in the aesthetics department. I suspect that most M3 buyers (at least the "upper half") feel the same way.
As for Infiniti competing with the "M's" and AMG's, I guess it's possible. But that market is pretty thin (2,000 M5's per year, I believe) and if they want to make money, they need to add a few more volume successes to the G35 coupe. Especially since Nissan appears to have created a problem with the 2004 Maxima redesign. They are already being discounted in the DC area.
As habitat says, there's no place to use STi, M5 speed. There is a waiting list of 6 folk at the local STi dealer and all of them are autoX drivers. But there are so many Porsches, M3s .... and so on, that just sit in traffic. What a waste.
JW
But seriously, I don't see a problem with any of these over the top toys like the STi or even the G35 Coupe (trying desperately to stay somewhat on topic). As long as they maintain a balance between their abilities to go fast, stop, and handle and do it in reasonable comfort. Style and, to a lesser degree, luxury have more to do with image then driving. Bottom line, it's no mystery to me that many car enthusiasts would want more performance first and foremost, and then temper that desire with the perhaps less exciting but no less compelling reasons like image, cash flow, reliability, a rear seat for the family, and whatever else... The owner of the STi will just be making fewer performance compromises is all. That's cool... why not?
Sure, we're all stuck in traffic sometimes. But, when that M5 driver finds some daylight... ohhhh yeeeesssss!
Not everyone wants the leather and luxury, and many are willing to save $15k and go with the STi vs the M3, (probably the lower half, as you pointed out). Of course, there are just as many that would rather keep much of the luxury and much of the performance, and go with the G35 coupe. There are many ways to balance the equation
Usually, however, it takes them about 20 paragraphs. Congratulations!
JW
G35 sedan: 8209
Caddy CTS: 10956
Acura TL: 12795
Lexus ES: 13924
325i/330i: 17203
G35 Coupe: 6000+
325ci/330ci: 4700+
You can see why advertising is still high on the G35 sedan. If the CTS outsells it, there is a problem!
I would raise the coupes prices by $500 for '04, no more than that.
A tuner division is a good idea, particularly for Infiniti, since they have 3 hot products (add FX) worthy of tuning and performing!
The M45 will be redesigned for 2005. The Q for '06.
I don't know why they still sell the I35, since it only siphons sales off the G...