GM Engine Knock

gator36gator36 Member Posts: 294
edited March 2014 in GMC
Total of 4 samples on my oil. Each and every one of them have high copper content. All other materials appear to be fine, at or below averages. Time to take it to the dealer with the sample reports. Maybe now they can find why it has piston slap on startup?...
«13456

Comments

  • rayt2rayt2 Member Posts: 1,208
    We'll be "all ears" to hear what the dealer had to say about your oil anaylsis. Should I put on the hip waders now.....LOL

    Ray T.
  • tomh12tomh12 Member Posts: 240
    Does the high copper content lead you to any likely sources? I think Obyone and maybe a few others had similar high copper content in their oil tests also?? Maybe Ryan??
    Tom
  • gator36gator36 Member Posts: 294
    From what I have seen and heard, most of the oil samples show high copper. After speaking with the folks at Blackstone Labs they are at a loss as to where it is coming from. Could be bearing material or oil cooler? Who knows, I have an appointment with the service manager at a local dealership. He is friends with my brother and I can expect a straight answer.

    Walter (Gator)

    PS. Obyone was generous enbough to scan his oil sample report and e-mail it to me. His copper content was similar.
  • tomh12tomh12 Member Posts: 240
    Thanks for the feedback. I hope you get an answer that will help everyone who is having the problem.
    Tom
  • ryanbabryanbab Member Posts: 7,240
    I havent done an oil analysis.

    Ill probably do it next month when i am due for a change just for the heck of it.

    I have a come and go knock. Havent heard it since february. Truck runs fine.

    I will let you know after i get it done what the results are

    Ryan
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    It only took 7 notes in this reincarnation of this topic for someone to post an insulting name for a truck.


    We are NOT going to start this nonsense up again.


    This is certainly a valid topic for discussion. Stick to it.


    image


    Just a reminder that our Town Hall chat happens on Wednesday (5-7pm Pacific/8-10 pm Eastern).


    This week we have The Return of Car Trivia!


    Hope you can stop by to test your automotive trivia knowledge! (or at least sharpen your internet search skills...LOL)


    http://www.edmunds.com/townhall/chat/newsviews.html




    PF Flyer

    Host

    Pickups & News & Views Message Boards

  • whatsachevywhatsachevy Member Posts: 136
    for finally taking action to get control back of these threads. I apologize if I offended anyone with my comments. Perhaps, we can now get back to talking about "real" issues with our trucks. Thanks again!
  • gator36gator36 Member Posts: 294
    The offending comment was deleted?
  • gator36gator36 Member Posts: 294
    I have to laugh at part of my experience....

    First, The service manager looked at my reports and was visibly concerned and puzzeled. He is sending it to the regioal field engineer today and we will see what HE has to say about all of the metal.

    Second, I had two other concerns to be addressed.

    1. The intermediate steering shaft needed to be lubed. Done, fixed, no problem.

    2. On acceleration (particualrly one on-ramp to the freeway.) I will get "Pinging" (Spark Knock) from 3900 rpm through 4300 rpm at wide open throttle.
    Now get this answer the "technician" came back with...
    "Your fuel filter is plugged solid and you need to run higher octane gas. These 4x4 motors are High compression motors and they need higher octane gas."
    At this point I wasn't sure whether to laugh my [non-permissible content removed] off or tell this guy he was an idiot. So I asked him and the service writer(her), "Then why does the manual state use 87 octane gas?" Their response was that "Those manuals are written for all vehicles and these "higher comression 4x4 motors need higher octane gas."
    Okay?
    Now I didn't just fall off of the turnip truck and I enjoy putting something back "in your face" from time to time, I figure that I will do as they say and bring it back and ask "Now what Einstein?"
    Then take a nice walk back to the service manager and ask what kind of monkeys these two are.

    Side note, another service writer was there when I picked my truck up and he just laughed at the "diagnosis."

    Fuel filter has been replaced and 93 octane gas has been introduced, guess what, no change....
  • rayt2rayt2 Member Posts: 1,208
    The laughter's not over yet, you haven't heard the regional reps report on your oil analysis sheet. LOL
    I agree, where do the dealership's find some of these moron's. The service writers took a class in theatrics we know but what excuse does the ASA/GM Certified mechanic have to make such fool statements ?? I didn't know the 4x4 Silverado's had "high compression" engines I feel slighted by GM. Should we tell GM about these high compression engines their handing out to 4x4 owners??? they may be able to start tacking on another $1000 and call it an option pkg. ROFLMAO

    Keep us laugh'in.............

    Ray T.
  • kg13kg13 Member Posts: 2
    Hello Everyone;

    My 2001 GMC 2500hd 6.0 4x4 has a engine knock! the noise is gradually getting worse! The BBB has set up a date to arbitrate my case next week.

    My Question is! Can anyone help? Let me know if you have gone thruogh the process and if you were successful in having GMC buy back your vehicle?

    Our what can I expect? Since the dealer won't even touch the problem I am wondering if they even know what the real problem is!

    Thank you in advance for any help!

    You can reach us at a012887@dellepro.com
  • ryanbabryanbab Member Posts: 7,240
    I am curious as to what you mean by getting worse.

    Louder, performance losses? Could you please clarify thanks

    Ryan
  • kg11kg11 Member Posts: 530
    How long does it last? How many miles on the truck?
    My 8.1 started knocking at about 3k or 4k miles and lasted about 20 sec.At 20k mi it was louder and lasted 45-55 sec.Now with warmer weather an22k mi it lasts about 30 sec.
    I did the BBB thing and they seemed anxious for me to settle with GM by accepting the extended warrenty(I did,reluctantly) BBBs position seemed to be that as long as it runs and drives OK the knock is just a nuisence and if GM is willing to stand behind it with a warrenty I should be satisfied.
    My position,on the other hand; it already has a problem they're not willing to fix.

    kip
  • kg13kg13 Member Posts: 2
    The noise started about 6000 miles as a cold start knock and would go away after the engine warmed up. Now the noise last longer and seems the knock is their the majority of the time starting!. The noise is not as loud since it has warmed up outside.

    At times it would hesitate on start up as if something has to let loose in order to start.

    GMC has no problem with fixing the annoying problems else where on the truck! So why are they so against fixing the engine in a timely manner!

    Thanks for your Qustions!
  • bamatundrabamatundra Member Posts: 1,583
    Well - my relative's truck sounds like a hammer pounding on the block when he starts it.

    I sure am glad that GM will fix his truck under its original warranty. WHAT!!! GM will not fix knocking engines!!!! ???/

    What are GM owners supposed to do? Buy a new GM knocker to replace their original knocker? GM has already said that they will not fix knocking engines. - because for GM engines this is normal!!!.
  • kg11kg11 Member Posts: 530
    Any evidence that the engine is being dammaged by the knock? BBB seems to agree with GM "It's a nuisence,not a defect" was the echo I heard from BBB.
    If the BBB is buying it,surely it must be true.

    kip
  • bamatundrabamatundra Member Posts: 1,583
    When did it become "normal" for engines to knock? Even if says that they will knock for the next 100,000 miles - why should unfortunate GM owners have to put up with this?

    I'm curious - when did it become "normal" for engines to knock? Has GM produced knockers long enough and often enough that this is their new standard - knocking engines?

    Wow!
  • bamatundrabamatundra Member Posts: 1,583
    There is NOTHING wrong. GM is just setting a new (LOWER) standard - NEW ENGINES MAY KNOCK. If you have a knocker - GM will not worry about it.

    This simple fact should not surprise new Chev owners.
  • h0udinih0udini Member Posts: 118
    with this one, now, about the lowering of GM's standards. Recently, they lowered their excessive oil consumption rating for the blatant purpose of having their knockers qualify for being "normal." How convenient!

    Will the knock damage the engine? It certainly cannot be good for it, and it probably adversely affects its performance. But the clincher is only SOME of the pistons knock. If knocking was normal, wouldn't they ALL knock? Shouldn't all eight pistons operate in the same manner? Why the "rogue" piston?

    I think it's a dark day in America when people plunk $30K for a new truck and are told that knocking is normal and that it's a nuisance. What does that say? It's normal to be annoyed? Sure, for a $3K used beater, but not a $30K new truck.
  • kg11kg11 Member Posts: 530
    I'm not as gulible as you guys like to claim.I'm just saying that THE public watchdog that's supposed to be helping consumers is siding with GM.NOBODY thinks it's normal for a new engine to knock,and yes they WOULD all knock if it was normal.Not just 1 or 2 pistons in just a few engines.I know 6-8 people with late model GMs and mine is the only one that knocks.I told BBB that if mine is normal I'd like to trade it for one of the majority of abnormal ones.They encouraged me to settle with GM without arbitration.I've got a 100k warrenty and I think it'll make it.Most importantly it'll pull my 7700lb boat while carrying a 1200lb camper,but hey,how 'bout them Tundras!

    kip
  • h0udinih0udini Member Posts: 118
    I actually feel you're one of the more level-headed GM owners on this board - most of the time:

    "it'll pull my 7700lb boat while carrying a 1200lb camper,but hey,how 'bout them Tundras!"

    But hey, how 'bout them 4.6 F-150s, 4.8 Silverados or them 4.7 Dodges? I guess you feel the Tundra is the only truck here up for the task? Let's not let emotion get in the way of reason, here.
  • nerdnerd Member Posts: 203
    This will be my last post since I have solved the knocking problem with my 2000 GMC Sierra 5.3L.

    Since GM said there was no "business case" for giving me an extended warranty, I decided there was no "personal case" for continuing to own a GM vehicle. I traded my Sierra for a 2002 Mazda B4000. No knocks and no other problems.
  • rayt2rayt2 Member Posts: 1,208
    Keep it civil before we end up having this board shut down too! I actually like to gather the USEFUL info from here when it's posted.
    The fight with GM on these knockers is far from over! I now have 29k and still have the knock for 1 minute during cold start, in fact after camping last weekend and towing my camper the first start up after towing, the knock was LOUDER then the past, but I guess that's normal.................and I just won the Mega Millions Lottery! LOL

    Ray T.
  • kg11kg11 Member Posts: 530
    you can call me "kg"
  • kg11kg11 Member Posts: 530
    Ford 4.6 or chev 4.8? Fact is I would buy a Tundra rather than one of those IF it had a full sized cab,more available payload and towing capability...it's not that I don't like it.I don't like the lack of options.

    kip
  • catfishthemancatfishtheman Member Posts: 1
    The way I got rid of my 1999 Silverado 5.3L knock was to do something I swore I would never do. I traded it in on a F150 Supercrew 4x4 Lariat FX4. I have always driven Chevy but just got sick and embarrassed of the cold engine knock. Everybody I know that has one knocks also. My friend has a 6.0 in his Silverado and it knocks all the time. I miss my 18 mpg that I got from the 5.3, this 5.4 Ford gets 14 mpg but no engine rattles or knocks. Sure hope Chevy fixes the problem, then I may come back but only then. Good Luck all!
  • srutherford2srutherford2 Member Posts: 1
    Has anyone tried a pre-oiler for the cold start knock??
  • everharteverhart Member Posts: 59
    Not all knock as I have a 2000- Tahoe 5.3L 4x4 & a 2001- 2500HD Silverado 4x4 6.0L and neither one has the cold start knock or any knock or rattles. I only run 87 oct. gas, both were built at the Wisconsin plant if that matters.
  • rayt2rayt2 Member Posts: 1,208
    catfish, Sorry to hear the only resolve for you was to trade it in on a (gulp) Ford. What did Ford give you towards the trade? Did the knock play into that dollar figure or did you just not mention it to the Ford dealer (I would not have)??

    Everhart, Glad none of your GM products "knock" and that justifies my position to our GM Coroporate bozo's as well as my case to NY State Attorney General, if it's "normal" then why don't they all do it!

    Stay tuned for this one, it's not gonna go away for GM but rather bite them pretty damn hard when their smoke and mirrors show is exposed.

    Ray T.
  • everharteverhart Member Posts: 59
    I agree, not all GM engines knock so it can't be normal. I had engine ping ( not knock ) once when traveling out of state but once I got back home it went away. I gassed up 2 times in Virgina & that's when the ping started, when I filled up back in Ohio the ping when away. I know a guy who has a 5.3 & it does KNOCK I'm so glad mine don't.
  • nomoregmnomoregm Member Posts: 158
    You should only need to satisfy one. This is a quote from the California Lemon-Law and most states are similar. The BBB likely has to follow the same guidelines so if you have lost an arbitration or are heading for one, consider this:

    Quote: "The problems are covered by the warranty, substantially reduce the vehicle's use, value or safety to the consumer, and are not caused by abuse of the vehicle."

    So:

    1) Substantially reduce the vehicle's USE: Does not really, in this case, at least YET (Y-our E-ligible T-oo)--

    2) Substantially reduce the vehicle's SAFETY: Does not really, in this case--

    3) Substantially reduce the vehicle's VALUE: Bingo! That's the kicker.

    If you have taken the advice of BBM at gmpistonslap.com, then some of you have already purchased or have attempted to obtain several written vehicle appraisals on your knocker from ASE-certified mechanics/appraisers.

    Have the appraiser diagnose the defect (piston slap) and he'll write it up using NADA's values minus the cost of an engine replacement-- specifically (this is important), because of severe piston slap on (whichever side or # cylinder) in the engine.

    Hope this helps. Good luck.
  • rayt2rayt2 Member Posts: 1,208
    Once again some useful info, thanks! Unfortunately I'm beyond NY Lemon Law but this might help the AG's office.

    Ray T.
  • losangelesemtlosangelesemt Member Posts: 279
    Thought maybe you'd found a nice cliff and taken a GM plunge there buddy. Nothing like having a GM engine knocking, while the car itself knocks on rocks all the way down. 2 knocks for the price of 1. You still hot on the GM trail or have you simmered down a little lol.

    Cheers
  • xyz71xyz71 Member Posts: 179
    If you know so much about how to handle a BBB case / buyback - why are you still stuck with a knocker? Were you able to get GM to buy your truck?
  • nomoregmnomoregm Member Posts: 158
    Missed you guys, man.

    I don't know anyone who has won an arbitration over knocking at BBB. I know several that have lost. Did they have the right evidence? I don't know. I'm simply saying that most people might be bringing knocking cars to arbitration which, although they make noise, the arbitrator has nothing but his own opinion to decide whether it reduces value.

    The arbitrators are not technicians. Some are not lawyers. GM has the right to preclude a BBB-appointed independent technician at the arbitration and have done so in my case. The technicians that they do appoint do not assess value, nor do they opine at the hearing as to any damage that knocking may, or may not cause.

    The onus is upon us to either bring an ASE certified guy in, or at least his statement. The arbitrator will accept statements as he can request verification. They are, however, not easy to obtain. The only statement that matters, according to law, is a value statement. It's only money.

    I do know that much. My arbitration is in the middle of June. It's been a long road and one which I would have hoped to avoid.
  • dch0300dch0300 Member Posts: 472
    I'm just a little curious, for those people that have the GM engine knock, what does your oil pressure gauge read when your engine is idling and knocking?
    I do not have the engine knock, and at idle when I first start my engine my oil pressure gauge reads about 60 psi.

    2001, 5.3L, Mobile 5W-30 and PF59 filter.
  • rayt2rayt2 Member Posts: 1,208
    Never seen any problems with the oil pressure since day one with this truck, but the knock continues during cold starts.

    My boss came in today and since I had mentioned this problem to him he said he had noticed the cold start knock. He has a NY State issued fleet vehicle, 2002 Suburban w/6.0L engine and only 5k miles. So as you can see GM has STILL NOT RESOLVED THIS DESIGN FLAW 3 years after it reared it's ugly head.

    To be continued............

    Ray T.
  • nomoregmnomoregm Member Posts: 158
    Mine is about 58-psi at idle--5.7 liter Camaro--2001 8k miles. Pure knocker.
  • minikinminikin Member Posts: 389
    The oil analysis for my Hondas also show high copper; it's not just the truck.
    -- Don
  • nomoregmnomoregm Member Posts: 158
    My car just recently started making two different-pitch knocks. So now I have a symphony. Got to look on the bright side. I like symphonys. Depending on the RPM, it has two distinct pitches. I'm so happy now. I am sure I'm the only one who can claim that. Maybe a second piston just kicked in. Who the hell knows? I know one thing. The people that sold me the car could care less.

    It's like driving a music box that I can control with the gas pedal. Maybe, if I own it long enough, I can get it to play some Led Zepplin.

    "It's been a long time since I've Knock and rolled."
  • losangelesemtlosangelesemt Member Posts: 279
    Lol man ... hey its good to see guys like Ray and yourself keeping a lighter attitiude with this issue. GM turned me away quite a few years ago now, it just seemed like whatever they produced as of late, was just riddled with too many problems. Yet I still wish the best to all you guys who are just trying to get a fair shake out of your new, or like new vehicles.

    Hey .... " they say the heart of knock and roll is the beat .. in " and from what I've heard I be ... lieve them. Well guys ... don't Knock your brains out on this one, good times are ahead.
  • nomoregmnomoregm Member Posts: 158
    Can't find my folder with a year's worth of receipts and dealer visits. I think I left it on top of a car at some lot where I brought my knocker in for a good laugh and an expert opinion. 'Bout ready to give up, man. I've had it.

    After all this time, it makes me realize what a useless bunch of no-good LXXX's and ThXXXX'S that GM realy is, putting good people through such BS.

    Anyway, I hear from good sources that local engine-builders are replacing pistons for some of the area GM dealers--on the "hush--hush". Shhhhhh.... Don't tell anybody we fixed it. We wouldn't want all the other customers/chumps to find out. Word is, that GM went through several attempts at the new piston design but have not told anybody about it. Now that's normal, isn't it.
  • noobie1noobie1 Member Posts: 326
    I hear ya. I've been having the same thoughts except haven't found a source for the hardware yet. Although it probably wouldn't correct the problem if GM is to be believed and all the noise does indeed originate from piston slap. However, it could eliminate multiple sources of noise (rod bearings, valve train, etc.)which always complicate analysis. Another thought someone mentioned here previously is water vapor injection. If, in fact, carbon build-up in the combustion chamber aggravates the condition, as is suggested by the success (although short lived) of upper cylinder cleaning, then the idea has promise. I looked into this in the late seventies, there being a lot of talk about it as it relates to fuel economy. Back then it was a popular enough idea that even Edelbrock made a kit. Claims of 10% increase were fairly standard. But what's important here is the well known side benefit: the removal and prevention of carbon build-up.

    -David
  • nomoregmnomoregm Member Posts: 158
    These vehicles are brand new. Carbon makes a car knock when it's hot, not cold.
  • kg11kg11 Member Posts: 530
    Glad you survived the slaughter last week.Sure is quiet around here,but I kinda like it.

    GM was trying to tell folks thier engines were knocking because of carbon build-up and as you stated ,these vehicles are new.GM was soaking the pistons (in the engine) as a cure.It actually worked for a few hundred miles,then the knock came back.It seems to me this was another stall tactic and I'm sure there are a lot of people with knocking '99s whose warrenty is expired.

    I wonder what was in that "piston soak",Teflon?

    kip
  • nomoregmnomoregm Member Posts: 158
    Maybe Toyota sold all the recovered sludge to GM and that quiets them down for a while---BAM!
  • kg11kg11 Member Posts: 530
  • nomoregmnomoregm Member Posts: 158
    Yah, I'm kinda glad I survived. Hey, if I got the boot, I think I would have tried some damage control. Anyway, all the X's from Texas can be found here:


    http://www.teleweb.net/mgdvhman/Trucks66/tocproto.htm


    It aint pretty....

  • kg11kg11 Member Posts: 530
    I'm gonna miss some of 'em. Heck ,I even miss picking on the troll ,all the humor is gone (present company excepted)

    kip
  • rayt2rayt2 Member Posts: 1,208
    Hey wait one darn minute...... high copper showing up in Honda analysis also what the hell! Somethings rotten with that oil test! Just convinced me not to bother wasting my money on that one now.

    NoMore..... Oh what the hell keep on keep'in on! Does GM know their passing out melodic knockers and not charging for it??? Boy did they miss the boat on that option LOL! Here's one straight from the dictionary to describe your musical GipM melody: aka Vortec..."a rhythmic succession of single tones organized as an aesthetic whole"
    ROFLMAO............

    Ray T.
This discussion has been closed.