GM Engine Knock

nomoregm

Found some back-up copies--scaned into a friends computer--back in business. Yah, GM likes to make music. I see where honda is getting ready to introduce a real big SUV to compete with the Big Knocker. It's called the "Pilot". On your knees GM, you'd better pray that one knocks too.

kg11

rumor has it that honda intends to use GM and Isuzu (which Honda part owns) engines.Fit and trim ,as well as electronics, should be better but it's the same ol' POS we're already driving.I'll keep what I got till Ford comes out with a respectable sized gas engine.(or somebody else does)

kip

rayt2

Ya know, I owned a 86 that went back as a lemon, I bought an 88 Ex. Cab (yea I looked at the Ford, forget a Dodge)to replace that (w/the 4.3L V-6) and had great success with that, then I buy the 2000 and the engine goes sour! I like everything about the style of this truck, it's got the most room out of ALL the extended cabs on the market, they come out with a decent redesign and can't get the motor right........what the @#*!
Now they gotta pay one way or another! What comes around goes around GipM ....are ya listening !!!!

Ray T.

PAman

You know, if a bunch of you guys near LA or NY called and set up an appointment with a national reporter and let them hear 5, 10 or 15 engines all knocking at once, you might get some national attention. Can you imagine that...an entire string of Silverados, Tahoes, Yukons and the like, lined up, all running, and all showing the easily detectable knocking in front of the NBC building in Rockefeller Center, or in the parking lot of the CBS building in LA?

Granted, this problem isn't killing people like the Firestone tires were, but you never know what kind of results you will get until you try. Would love to hear and see Stone Phillips on NBC's Dateline walking up and down a line of trucks, as each owner starts and idles a 5.3 or 6.0 engine, holding the microphone near the hood, letting 15 million people hear each one idling and knocking. Meanwhile, he has a mechanical engineer, a professional engine builder for NASCAR or some other expert walking next to him, explaining that this noise is not normal. Then he has all of you guys in a room, each of you holding a tan folder on your lap full of receipts and letters from GM either showing they tried to fix your truck or denied there was anything wrong with it, as you tell your stories on camera.

The court of public opinion is a very funny thing. With GM trying and winning to get market share away from Ford and Dodge, they might suddenly have a fix for those engines if they heard them idling and knocking on live nationwide television.

Just a thought...

Joe

obyone

Even a write up in the National Enquirer wouldn't hurt.

Good luck on this one now!!

losangelesemt

You know how it goes though ... you'd have 20 knockers all lined up and they'd give the signal to start your engines, and of course with engines running, none of them would knock for the 30 seconds or so lol. Ok so maybe thats wishful thinking on the part of GM owners.

Actually hey Nomore ... you could probably have your knocker reved up out there in NY, and CBS over here in LA would be able to hear it. Would at least cut down on travel right. Gotta do whatever it takes sometimes to get your knock across.

nomoregm

Just came back from my dealer to have him check my oil consumption persuant to their test. They went by mileage. The Assistant Srv. Mgr. recorded my 5.7 Camaro as having burnt 1 quart in 1400 miles. He said, "GM says it's normal to do that in 1300 miles". I said, "I thought it was 2000 miles." He went to show me the TSB and actually showed me the one that said 2000. I said show me where it says 1400 miles. He said he couldn't find the 1300 mile one. Then his boss (srv. mgr.) came in and admitted that my car had failed and was burning too much oil.

After the usual go-around, he said, "What do you want me to do? You want me to tear the engine apart and put new rings in it? I will. I'll even put new pistons in it but your car will never be the same. They never get put back together the way they were." I said, "Then put a new engine in it." He said, "GM won't let me." He said that the new pistons would be teflon coated but I'd likely end up with the same problem. He'd already done one that is coming back. He said that they would not rebore but if the cylinder showed scoring, they would petition GM to replace the engine.

Then the place closed and he got a little open with me on some facts: He said, "You know all these rebates, advertising and incentives that GM has been handing out? They've been funding them from denied warranty claims and repairs."

He said, "If we go against GM with as little as an opinion that's not in line with their corporate strategy, they'll close this place down." What a sad commentary, I said.

Then, get this, I said, "If I can prove through a borscope that my cylinders are scored, will you replace the engine? He said he could probably get it done. He even offered to allow me to have it scoped if I can find one--He knew nothing or would say nothing about a piston re-design.

BBM was right--get your knocker scoped.

I get the feeling that GM service is given incentives to deny and thwart warranty repairs.

Oby--nice to see you here. I didn't think you made the "cut". LOL on the National Inquirer. I think the same people write GM's TSB's. Anyway, did I tell you I saw Elvis the other day? He was sitting next to me and Bigfoot on the UFO!

losangelesemt

Precisely the reason that Im done with GM for a while. Not only do most of their products suffer from poor craftsmanship, but even when I was in the shop years ago, I got the feeling that corporate GM was anything BUT on the side of the customer. So basically GM will stick ya with a knocker, and then knock your brain apart as you attempt to bring resolution to the situation. At least the dealer you were at leveled with you and gave you the skinny. Not too often will you find a dealer who will speak out against " daddy " .

So you have any idea what you plan to do next or maybe you should throw on lynyrd skynyrd and do some brainstorming ehhh

Cheers

markbuck

Have them rebuild your 5.7, using new rings and pistons.

1400 miles per qt is excessive.

The guy talking to you doesn't work for GM, so IMHO he is full of it.

Quit whining, have em fix it........

nomoregm

I do my best to gather and share information for the benefit of others in this forum. Thank you for your sincere advice to have my rings and pistons replaced. I assure you, if hadn't "whined" to the extent that I have, that option would not be available to me now (Nomore pats self on back).

Fact is, the call-back ratio on re built engines is much higher than crate engines. Any ASE-certified tech will tell you that and will also agree that when you mate new parts with used, you'll never get it right.

The aforementioned service manager also said that even a new-engine replacement in my car--Camaro--is difficult because of the car-design and would likely develop problems not found in a new car, i.e., vibration, leaks, peripherals, etc. He's not the only expert to tell me that. I've been around the block a few times. The guy indeed works for GM. GM tells him when to jump and how high. Believe it.

California: My BBB arbitration is this month. I will wait to see what comes from that before I proceed. I hope for a buy-back. I have an ASE-certified appraisal of my defect and the substantial decrease in value to my car. Cost $75.00.

If I lose, I'll try to get my engine scoped and try for the crate engine.

If that fails, I will sell it outright. I will tell the buyer that it knocks and burns oil. I will not lower myself to GM's standards.

Then, I will buy myself a slightly used, BMW 540. Screw these American POS cars, trucks and BS customer service.

Kg11: Sheeez--Honda partnering with GM? Maybe they should call their new vehicle, the Honda "Whiner".

everhart

Nothing against you but to say all American cars,trucks are a POS is stupid. You clearly have a knocking motor but I wonder if your like a friend of mine back in 1974 who bought a 74 Z28. I went with him when he picked it up at the dealer & he raced it home doing 120MPH & burning out at every light every day till it started burning oil in 2 months. He then told the dealer he drove it like it was driven by a little old lady. I'm not saying you did but most of us like to see what our new TOYS will do. That's why you should never buy a car or truck that I've tested as when I bought my truck last Aug. I tested a very similar truck. The salesmen turned white & about pi$$ed himself as he said he had never seen a truck burnout that long & smokey. I then asked if it was OK to take it off road to see how it handels he said sure, just take me back first. I hope they make it right by you but not all US cars & trucks are POS IMO.

PAman

Yesterday, J.D. Power and Associates announce that GM was number three in initial quality. They beat out Nissan, Volkswagen, Ford, Dodge, Mitsubishi, and many others. In addition, GM OWNED or dominated many size and model catagories. They were third behind Toyota and Honda. In its' category, the Honda Accord came in THIRD, with two GM models coming in first and second.

Here's the link to the story so you can read it yourself:

http://www.autonews.com/news.cms?newsId=2383

Yeah, all American cars are junk. If you don't believe it, just ask the guy that owns a Nissan (air bag recall on the new Altima, seat belts in the pickups) Toyota (sludge problems on about a gazillion V-6 engines dating back several years, Maserati (hey, everybody knows that expensive foreign cars are PERFECT, right?) and others.

Now, do we REALLY want to keep bashing all American cars or trucks, or stay focused on getting GM to fix these engines?

If you want to bash all American iron, please send me your name and address and I will send you some lovely photos of vacation land in Florida you can buy.

Joe

nomoregm

But don't believe everything you read in this Countrie's controlled media. You made my point on the Japanese comparison. Is JD Power saying that GM is better than BMW (my specific example) and Mercedes as well? Good luck with that one.

JD power says one thing, CR another, and the list goes on--who is on the payroll and what do you want me to say.

Consider me a conflict theorist. These companies make changes not because you ask them to, but because you fight for it. I think you'll agree, gentlemen, that this is not the first time in history that American-made vehicles have paled dramatically in comparisons to their foreign rivals.

losangelesemt

nomoregm

Some, if not most of the knockers from GM won't display the knock until well after the 3-months. The associated oil-burn will be written off as normal break-in for the first 3 months and go unreported.

Automotive news does the story but fails to this day to have written one word about GM's well-documented knocking/oil burning engines. That makes me more than suspicious. AutoNews did however, write about and rather eloquently bashed the 2nd runner, Toyota, for their engine sludge which Toyota has since remedied. The Nissan complaints were predominantly on their newly re-designed Altima--seat belts, air bags and wind noise. Did Nissan fix them. You bet.

The scores were also weighted based on the sales rates of particular models but how did that affect the rankings? In Nissan's case, it hurt them because of the Altima's popularity. It's anyone's guess how that weighting actually works but it throws the numbers off considerably. Ultimately, If you believe that GM (#3 on JD's list), makes a better car than Nissan (#6), then maybe I'll take you up on that Florida land deal.

At any rate, I don't trust a 90-day study that is admittedly weighted and leaves out information regarding the frequency of specific complaints, i.e., engine defects vs. tight seat belts or wind noise.

Perhaps we might find a study that goes beyond 30 days and includes the important stuff like warranty integrity. It's obvious, however, that as long as the media keeps cheerleading for GM, one of their major cash cows, more and more unsuspecting Americans will be saddled with POS vehicles and warranties that you can actually clean your back-side with.

"Stupid is, as stupid does."

plutonious

If you want to read about how GM vehicles fare after the first 90 days, read the long term reviews here at Edmunds, especially on their Sierra. It's pathetic.

tomh12

"Ultimately, If you believe that GM (#3 on JD's list), makes a better car than Nissan (#6), then maybe I'll take you up on that Florida land deal."
Welcome to your paradise island.....
I, for one, do believe that GM makes better vehicles than Nissan. No question about it. IMHO, Nissan makes ONE decent vehicle...the Maxima. Their next best is the Pathfinder. I had one new in '92. It had plenty of problems, including being under powered. Overall, Nissan is a cheap imitation of Toyota design and quality. They are downgrade copycats of original design and quality.....distorted images in a room of mirrors. LOL
Tom

nomoregm

That's fine Tom. I believe you have your reasons as a former owner of a less-than perfect "copy" of the Pathfinder--considered to be a top SUV otherwise. Nothing in life is perfect as we've already discussed and I agree. Given the gamble, one must go with the odds.

Am I to assume that GM even has a "flagship" vehicle akin to the Maxima? Which vehicle would that be? The Monte Carlo?

Did your Pathfinder have warranty defects that weren't repaired by Nissan? I've learned on the Net that horsepower complaints about the imports are an underlying theme in knock forums. I'm also angry that Nissan and Toyota do not make a more powerful truck. I too would prefer to buy quality over brawn.

Nissan, in 1959, was the first to introduce the compact pick-up truck to America under the Datsun name (Datsun 1000--37 HP). Mitsubushi was the first in Japan to prototype a pick-up in 1918. Nissan was the first importer to build trucks in America--TN. Nissan was the first import truck to go 1/2 ton (1969). Nissan--first long-bed truck (1975). Nissan--first King Cab ("King Cab" is a Nissan trademark) -- Who did you say was copying from whom?

rayt2

1 qt. in 1400 miles geeeeeeeeez. I would do as you say, wait for your arbitration hearing and take in the oil consumption report you just got, what more could they possibly want to see or hear about to do right by you.
Good Luck & let us know what happens at the hearing.

Ray T.

guy21

I don't buy GM vehicles any more, but couldn't help notice this topic. In the '70s when I worked for GM the oil consumption standard was 1 Qt per 600 miles. I have some trouble believing that 1 per 1,400 miles would stand up in arbitration, regardless of what the TSBs say. Even at $1.59 per quart, that is only $0.0011 per mile additional operating cost, which would hardly meet the significant impairment level of the lemon laws. Most engines won't even smoke until it reaches 1 per 300 miles or less.

losangelesemt

Tom I agree that Nissan seems to be a lesser imitation of Toyota, I've always thought that. Nissan comes close I think, but in my opinion, just doesn't have the same reputation as Toyota.

Nomore ... GM ranking over any import, less Nissan ??? Gotta be kidding me man. No way will I ever believe that GM ranks above Toyota or Nissan, in quality and reliability. I certainly don't think GM has proven their great craftsmanship, and from the folks I talk to, most of them don't see the GM image as one of quality. I like the looks of GM trucks but not whats under the hood or in the cab for that matter. Really awaiting a bigger and better Tundra or possibly a bigger Nissan, we'll see.

Hopefully everyone here can respect each others opinion on GM, imports and the likes. Not really trying to turn this into a US vs Foreign chat.

Cheers

nomoregm

Try your math again with Mobil 1. That is what GM recommends and what I use. The arbitrator is not a mechanic. He will consider the TSB's heavily. That's why GM changed their TSB's to say that knocking is normal and oil-consumption at 1qt/2000 miles is also normal.

There is mention of oil usage in another TSB #01-06-01-023. It says that in the 5.7 Camaro and Corvettes with the M6 (like mine), ran over 3200 rpms consistently, the oil consumption could be in the range of 400-600 miles per quart. It doesn't say it's normal. It says it is caused by interaction between the piston and cylinder wall--piston slap. They suggest using only the number 2 compression ring and the oil expander from a new ring pack. They say to use all the same pistons and no re-bore. You and I both know that isn't going to work.

Once torn down, any cylinder scoring will be present for all to see. When you were GM'er 30 some years ago, they didn't have borescopes. Today, they are common and relied on heavily in engine diagnostics. Toyota recommends their use in TSB's frequently. You'd think that GM, the largest builder in the world, might own one. They cost $1500.00. I have a feeling that even if they had one, they might not want to use it on these knockers.

Do you think a borescope inspection might hold up in arbitration?

Rayt--I'll let you know. Most certified mechanics I've spoken to cringe at the thought of rebuilding engines by mating used parts with new ones.

nomoregm

My legal theory in arbitration will not be an impairment issue. It will be one of substantially reduced value. I will make a strong, documented case that my GM vehicle, because of engine knock and abnormal oil consumption, has a substantially reduced value (the cost of engine replacement), from the perspective of a reasonably knowledgable buyer.

nomoregm

TSB #01-06-01-023...

This is big: The repairs I mentioned in post #73 are for engines NOT under warranty. Vehicles repaired under warranty require "new pistons, rod and/or rings--replace both banks". There is no part number given though.

obyone

service manager who assists in and investigates arbitration hearings, I think, lol, got to cover yourself eh? Well, he and I have been posting in, well would you believe...Inconsiderate Service Departments.....you may find his last post of interest.....yep in fact, I'll bet you will...

zueslewis "Inconsiderate Service Departments" Jun 1, 2002 2:39pm

allchevy

Maybe it's time for GM to go into business building lawnmower engines....they've obviously lost the ability to build a decent car or truck engine.
Them's the knocks!!

nomoregm

Very interesting. I wonder if he posts at GMPS.com. Isn't he worried that GM will find him and "silence" him? Once again, I'm impressed with the way you gather info and surf the Net. Thanks.

Allchevy: LOL, sometimes it seems like the only thing that runs good around my home is the one I don't like--that GD lawnmower. Does Briggs & Straton make a small-block V8?

nomoregm

Haven't heard from you since our last volley during which you posted some rebuttals to my disgust with American reliability. You might want to fire off a couple of missives to CR after reading this link:

http://www.consumerreports.org/main/detailv2.jsp?CONTENT<>cnt_id=113417&amp;FOLDER<>folder_id=113261

Please note there that GM does have a "flagship". It's the "Geo". Made by Suzuki. LOL.

aufirefighter

I have 121,500 miles on my GMC Z71. A light knocking started in my truck around 15000 mi. only upon cold start. After a few min. it went away. The Serv. Man. said it was normal. This condition persisted until my warranty ran out and I added some XR1. That cut the knock out and I have not heard it since. From the way you guys are talking I doubt it will help some of your problems, but maybe someone out there has an irritating "quiet" knock and would like to get rid of it. I would not suggest using this additive until your warranty has expired (Although XR1 supposedly warranty's your engine???). By the way I am still getting 18.5 mpg on the road, and about 17 for general driving.

ricsch

I just wanted to add that I have a relative who works in a service department at a local GM garage and from what he tells of what goes on in that one garage is scary. I know it probably happens at a lot of others, but just to hear that these dealerships would rather "hang the customer out to dry" than help them and make them a happy repeat customer baffles me. Many times the repair could have been covered by warranty, but they charge the customer.

rayt2

I think your post is the first to come out regarding long term use of the Vortec Knocker, 121K and still going w/no more knock? What the heck is XR1 additive?? Find it hard to believe it can do away with an engine knock but hell anything is possible.

Ray T.

obyone

Marvel Mystery oil yet?

wtd

The 5.7L in my 98 truck knocks on startup occasionally. It only has 39,000 miles on it and I first noticed it at about 32,000 miles. My oil pressure is slightly lower and I've had excessive lead in my oil according to my oil analysis so maybe my bearing are going out. Who knows? I'll just drive it till it drops.

I've owned GM vehicles for the last 15 years and so far have not been very impressed with their quality. It might be time to change brands in the future.

skid3

I wish to respond to comments about Nissians. I owned a 1991 Sentra until last month. At 152,000 miles it still went over 5000 miles without burning a quart of oil. Hardly any parts, except tires and brakes, needed to be replaced during the miles. The original battery was still in good service.
I have considered replacing my 1989 Ford F-150 with a Silverado. have consulted this engine knock forum for a while hoping to hear that GM has solved the problem. I passed up a Silverado last year and will probably do so this year. Having owned several Fords and GM products, I find the 1989 F-150 to have been more reliable than previous models, but no where near my experience with the Nissian.
As a footnote, two of my neighbors own Silveradoes. A 99 and a 2000, neither have cold start knock. Both have had ABS problems.

espeed

Gentlemen (Ladies too!),
This is my first time on Edmunds, and after reading all of these problems with the GM V8's (99 & up) I couldn't resist the challenge to respond. I have owned my '00 Sierra for over two years and it now has 30K miles. It's the 5.3 version and I use nothing but Castrol 10-30 GTX. I have gone up to 5500 between oil changes and have only used a pint. It also knocks when it's first started. I do let it run for at least 3-5 minutes before setting off. I also live in southeast Georgia, where it's quite warm most of the year. After doing some research on this particular GM engine design, I believe the problem is with the piston skirts; they're too short - hence the knock. As far as any problems, I've only experienced the "whistle" from the rack and pinion steering whenever I turned to the left. I had to have the entire rack replaced. No problems since then. I can tell all of you doubters out there that I have had nothing but pleasant experiences with this truck. I've owned Fords, Toyotas, Nissans and Isuzus and this is by far the better of the bunch. I have had a few Chevys that richly deserved the phrase "stove bolt assembly required", but this truck really is made well. I also recently added a set of dual exhaust and K&N filter. Much better gas mileage (20.88 on a recent 3800 mile trip) and it has more low end grunt for pulling.
Anyway, thought I'd add my 2cents worth to the grist mill!
espeed

rayt2

I too follow your prescribed method of dealing with the "knock" I will not move it for 2-3 minutes, by then I here nothing anymore and figure it's safe to go. I also agree about the new design of these trucks, I love it, better than any other extended cab on the market, but that little annoying knock has got to be remedied by GM.
Have you visited this website and registered your truck ?? if not please do so and also file an online complaint w/NTHSA on this issue, the more of us who are proactive about this abnormal condition the sooner GM will be brought to the table to fess up and right the wrong. But we need those who have the condition to take a little time to do their part in the battle.
Thanks.........

Ray T.

nomoregm

Check out gmps.com also. Not everyone has a short duration knock and (relatively) no oil consumption like you. Consider yourself one of the lucky ones. After 3-5 minutes, my knock is just getting in tune. It'll go for 30 minutes + no matter what the weather. I burn 1 qt./1400 miles mobil 1. Happy trails.

kg11

Do you hope to extend the life of your knocking engine?You're burning expensive oil faster than you would need to change it!Quit pissing money down the drain on something that will give you no return.I quit using M-1 about 6k ago and hope this knocker don't outlast the 100k warranty.

kip

noobie1

If GM blows you off on the knock, what makes you think they'll honor the warranty? What are the criteria for honoring the warranty, catastrophic failure? Doesn't GM set the criteria? M-1 may be the wiser choice.

-David

nomoregm

I was told by GM service rep that once you go Mobil 1, you shouldn't return to non-synth. Is that another GM-dealer "sell-up"? At any rate, I don't want to take the chance. And at least one dealer, has been topping me off (or jerking) or a little of both.

obyone

or fairy tales in this case

rayt2

Can't switch back to regular dino juice once youv'e gone to Mobil 1 BAWHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Iv'e heard everything now! What will these guys come up with next???? How big are their B***holes that their talking out of anyway ROFLMAO.
Don't fall for that line, you have more sense than they do and quite wasting your money on Mobil 1 until you get that NEW engine (hopefully) Isn't your hearing coming soon with arbitration ???

Ray T.

nomoregm

I just now came back from my arb hearing--in 5 days I will get a decision. I think I have a good chance. GM showed up by phone--lame. The same customer service rep I dealt with originally, reading off his boiler-plate memos. He tried to say that oil-consumption was not related to piston slap but the arb disagreed and allowed it. I showed several TSB's that stated otherwise. I finnaly got someone to drive in my car--the arb-and listen to the knock go well over 10 minutes and continue. Something which GM could not show they had done to diagnose. Covered all the requirements under MA Lemon law and threw in a nice passage from the UCC: http://www.nationallemonlawcenter.com/federal-law.htm Had 3 independent opinions plus this one: http://ca.autos.yahoo.com/020320/11/l3hp.html

They were impressed with my presentation. Hey, at least I was heard. The rest is up to the BBB arbitrator--will let you know just as soon....

What a royal PITA!

nomoregm

A big beautiful Dodge Ram Pick-up. That's a good sign, I think.

rayt2

So when you get the decision in your favor in 5 days what's the next vehicle gonna be? (How's that for positive thinking?) GM showed up by telephone for this hearing ??? What a bunch of dumb a****.
Based on what you stated and the documentation you provided I'm sure the ruling will be in your favor. Now how can we get this to go National to fly in GM's face ????
My knock has gotten louder but still only lasts for a minute so I don't roll the truck anywhere till I don't hear it anymore.

Ray T.

PAman

Nomoregm and others......

Winning an arbitration against GM and having a handful of TSBs only makes your case stronger for a national TV news story.

Please take my word for this after working with the news media for nearly 20 years: reporters LOVE it when you do most of their research for them because many of them are lazy, in a hurry to turn out as many stories as possible, or both.

Good luck! BTW, GM has some great rebates on a new truck....just kidding!

Joe

nomoregm

Something Japanese I presume. I think I'll check out the new Nissan 350 Z--freakin' loaded, of course. The BBB's case files are not made public by them. I would have to hue and cry myself after I win. The arb also has the right give them a repair opportunity--hope not. Heard to many horror stories and car will never be the same after they rip it apart.

Yah, I sort of wish mine lasted only a minute. If I lose after proving to the arb that it continues even when hot well over 10 or even 30 minutes, I guess I'll throw in the towel. It's hard to know how one man will go on this.

He did make the statement to me that it appeared to him that I was being ignored by GM, especially when I showed three letters from independents who stethoscoped my car to isolate and diagnose the knock--a simple task which GM did not even perform upon request. I can't wait to hear the ruling. Thanks for the well wishing.

sonjaab

Same here when I went to my BBB
hearings for remedies on my 87 ta and
89 vette.
NO GM guy in person ! He was on speaker
phone......LOL !
Hope you do better than I did.....geo

nomoregm

Just curious, did the arbitrator tell you why he did not find in your favor? Was it documentation, law issues, etc?

nomoregm

I'm over at Motortrend.com drooling over the new Nissan 350Z--a pop-up add rudely appears before me! It's GM touting its, "We are professional grade", "We'll be there" BS.

Nice try GM. Perhaps if you appropriated as much money for warranty repairs as you do for advertising and rebates, you "might" be a winner.

Sincerely,

NoMoreGM