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Do you guys have any advice on how to handle this? The car is still driveable, but everybody tells me that it can be a bad sign of things to come. Also, I am thinking of selling the car, but do not want to stick someone with a trans problem. The question is how much leverage do I have to force the dealer/subaru to fix the problem now --- as opposed to later when my warranty runs out (I am at 59,400mi). I would rather not be told, "OK just run it till the trans drops, and then we will fix it under an extended warranty."
As always, thanks very much for your help on this. Joe
I'm guessing that the old fluid is also now gone (did you request a sample be saved)? Which means that your opportunity to have it tested for the presence of various bearing materials that would have shown Subaru that a bearing (or valve, etc) had worn prematurely.
Honestly, I think your case has taken a major step backward in terms of your chances of having a proveable warranty claim. In your shoes, I'd have the tranny flushed professionally twice to get as much of whatever bits are in there out. Not sure what filter system yours has, but I think it's external and I'd have that changed during the last flush. That may be your only chance at avoiding a transmission issue now - clean fluid and flushes to dislodge whatever the dealer says is in the fluid.
IdahoDoug
If all else fails, I'd consider a trade-in now. It's still under warranty, so it's up to the dealer to own up to the problem before they sell it.
-juice
Re the low and dirty fluid: I think I have satisfied the warranty requirements here. The book says inspect at 30,000 and 60,000mi. I had a 30.000 mi. checkup at my mechanic (who is a trans specialist) and he found everything OK -- no need to change. AT 46,000 I had it into the Subaru dealer for a trans related problem --- hesitation shifting when going thru rolling stops (4th back to 1st). This turned out to be a sensor problem, but the subaru guy also checked the trans fluid at the same time. My mechanic also checked the trans at 50,000 when I had it into him for a brake job.
The bit about the low level is puzzling. I checked it warm and it was OK. So did my mechanic. The first dealer said it was low "cold", but everybody seems to think that is not the best test. In any event, the problem is not evidently related to the level, because it is still occurring --- after the fluid was changed and presumably set at the correct level.
Joe
I have a 2000 Outback with about 51,000 miles on it. I just changed the transmission fluid (the previous owner never changed it). I put in the estimated 4 quarts after draining the pan, and checked the fluid level. It was 2 inches higher than the full hot mark on the dipstick, eventhough the car was cold.
I left it like that for a week, drove it back and forth to work. During the week, I noticed that the transmission shifted harder than usual.
The next week I drained it down to normal levels, but the transmission still has trouble finding the right gear. It feels like my previous car-- a 1989 Chevy Celebrity did at 165,000 miles. Is this common? What to do?
Thanks
I'm most curious - why?
IdahoDoug
You make a good point. Since your manual only calls for a check of the fluid, vs a change then that helps your case immensely. It will still not help that a dealer put it in the record that he found it low and dirty, but I've been assuming (incorrectly) this whole time that it should have been changed by now. My bad.
So, if the dealer agrees there's a problem with the tranny behavior then you should be covered with only that "low and dirty" comment to deal with. Now, you've got to get it in writing at a Subaru dealer that there's a transmission shifting issue before the warranty runs out.
IdahoDoug
Good luck.
-mike
Get this, so the guys are debating what to use. I have paint thinner, rubbing compound, polishes, etc.
My step mom looks in her purse for some nail polish remover, uses a paper towel, and she's done before we even decide what to do. She said she had to rub a little, but it came off entirely.
We then washed the area throughly with detergent and water a couple of times, to wash off any residual acetone. It was a little risky, but it paid off in minutes.
Looks perfect!
-juice
Ed
BTW, I ordered some Klasse AIO and will be trying it soon, as well as claying my Outback. I'll post that over in 'Cleaning' when I get around to actually DOING that! LOL!
-Brian
Hey, she was on a roll. I just stayed out of the way. I thought she was crazy at first, but what do I know, it worked.
-juice
Lacquer thinners are proprietary blends of (usually) toluene, ketones (acetone is a ketone), alcohols, and other solvents. LT is not a discrete solvent but a blend, and also would work for removing the paint. It would be more aggressive than the f.p. remover due to the lack of water, and therefore easier to damage the clear coat on your car if not used carefully.
Paint thinner usually refers to mineral spirits, which is much less volatile, less flammable, and a less aggressive solvent. This probably wouldn't help remove aerosol spray paint.
Glad the f.p. remover worked, sometimes stepmoms are pretty smart!
utahsteve
sensei1 "Subaru Impreza WRX" May 12, 2003 5:45pm
Any constructive input would be appreciated. Thanks.
Greg
P.S. what style do you practice? Any chance it is Shotokan?
My question is what are proper values for these (and the slew of others)? What values would be bad, or ones to watch for?
-Brian
At first I thought it was loose belts that were recently installed when I had my A/C work done (recharge and leaky schraeder valves) but then I looked underneath to see wetness at the bottom of the plastic belt cover.
The oil is coating the oil pan and back to the exhaust y-pipe where it is being burnt off. All boots (inner & outer) are in good shape and completely dry so its not the grease being flung onto the exhaust.
Anyhow with 67,500 miles on the clock, can anyone offer advise on what to expect from the service dept. Its quite early for a Timing belt change and water and oil pumps should be good although I will have them check them and especially the bolts on the oil pump.
I just had it in for the A/C service last Friday and also had them flush/fill the coolant, drain/fill the ATF, replace the fuel filter, and replace the regular belts which were squeaking a bit. It was only a day or so after that when I smelled the burning and initially thought of the belts being new that it might go away ....wrong ;<
Enough rambling ... thanks for all the great info thus far.
Alan 98 OBW Ltd w/67,500 miles
craig
It seems to be a slow leak. At least at idle there is really no perceptible drip location. When I shut the car off last night and let it sit for an hour I saw a few spots on the driveway and one drip hanging from just below the belt cover.
Alan
They have treated me quite fairly in the past. Always were able to provide me a loaner too, usually a 91-93 Legacy sedan. I always ask for the WRX and they tell me that I just missed it
Sorry, I'm not into the arts, just a trainer.
it should've taken weeks or even months for there to be enough leakage to cover the pan and headers.
I'd have them replace the front crank seal and both cam seals while they're in there. Typical issue with the EJ series, but I agree the timing is a little odd...
-Colin
Craig
It was an oil pump gasket that failed. Mine happened at a similar mileage as yours, maybe a bit higher, so I went ahead and had them change the timing belt while they were in there. This is commmon on these engines; I've read about other owners w/ the same problem. Maybe that's your oil leak -> oil pump gasket?
utahsteve
Isn't the oil pump at the front of the block? The way he describes his leak, it sounds like it's coming from the back side.
-juice
"then I looked underneath to see wetness at the bottom of the plastic belt cover."
Yes, the oil pump is at the front of the block. A leaky pump (or seal or gasket?) could result in oil pooling in the bottom of the timing belt cover.
Here's my car, FWIW:
http://users.sisna.com/ignatius/subaru/mods/oil_leak.jpg
I agree about having the t-belt changed... five years old and almost 70K.
utahsteve
-juice
That is exactly what is happening. I got underneath it yesterday to get a good look around and the only active drips are at the bottom center some to the bottom right (driver side) of the TB cover. The oil is then blown back when driving onto the oil pan and further back to where the y-pipe is. Enough works its way back there to the exhaust and the oil burns off on the hot pipe.
I checked the rear area of the engine, front diffy and tranny areas and all is dry. The power steering lines to the Rack were coated with motor oil but there is no leak source above that either.
Its in the shop today and I'm sure that I'll probably take your advice (and Juice's too) and have them replace the belt. It will aready be off and probably oiled up a bit. I stressed to them that I want them to check the oil pump bolts too.
Thanks,
Alan 98 OBW Ltd
(Service Desk guys name is Dave ... a name you can trust !?!?!)
-juice
The oil pump seal is leaking and they are replacing the seal with no charge to me!
They are also replacing the Timing Belt since they can't see the markings due to the oil staining which is reasonable and prudent. I understand the complexities regarding the TB replacement on my Phase I DOHC and certainly don't want any errors in this process. $80 for the belt.
Alan 98 OBW Ltd (Dave's the man!)
-Colin
I took my Subie, with 30,000 miles and the bumper-to-bumper warranty expiring June 3, back to Larry H. Miller Subaru in Sandy, Utah. When I was dropping it off, I reminded them I occasionally experienced gear clash in first gear with the clutch fully depressed. Since the clash was VERY intermittent, I didn't expect them to find anything, which they didn't the first go around with the clutch job.
Well, they didn't feel the clutch chatter as I did, but they did experience the clash.
They dropped the transmission late Monday to discover a worn synchro on first gear. The repair would be done the next day. I called early Tuesday for a progress report and they said the news was not good. Second gear was damaged, too, and the main transmission shaft needed replacement. Plus the parts were on backorder. D'oh!!
The good news is that the car was ready this morning, and drove fantastic when I picked it up.
Even better is that everything was covered under warranty, and Larry H. Miller never pulled the typical garbage of blaming the customer for abusing the vehicle. They said they looked over the rest of the car and knew I took good care of it. Now that's good customer service.
Well done Larry H. Miller!! Thanks a bunch.
-Ty
I called the alarm place again, but they were closed. My alarm has an immobilizer, fuel cut-off and anti-carjack feature (a code is entered after car is started). All of my accessories work, but the headlights and instrument warning lights do not.
Running out to tinker again.
Thanks,
Dennis
Should ATF be drained, replace filter then filled OR flushed with fluid exchanger machine (no filter replacement). Also, it says to replace engine coolant & brake fluid (and recommend fuel filter) but is this really necessary? Also, inspect the camshaft drive belt (timing belt) Please advise... Patrick Subaru of Worcester, MA charges $395 for this and told me they have their OWN schedule - no brake fluid/coolant flush and they replace the PVC valve (does it even have one)! Thanks
I assume (hope) that the dealer wants to get an OK for replacing the transmission. I always thought of ATs as an all or nothing proposition, but is there some procedure short of replacement that subaru could do?
In any event, thanks for your info and support. Will keep you informed of what happens next. Joe
Ty: glad that's settled. How's it driving now?
roadrobert: I do believe there is a positive crankcase ventilation (PCV) valve.
Do you feel up to the task? I would bleed the brakes, and flush the radiator. Check the other fluids to see their condition, that's what "inspect" means.
-juice
PCV: Roadrobert, I just changed mine, it's real easy. I think we'd have the same one, mine's a '97. Go to scoobymods.com and do a search on "pcv" or "pcv valve", should be right there.
utahsteve
The service manager (JacK) called me and said that he wasn't going to charge me for the labor and oil pump seal parts and is writing it off as "Dealer Goodwill". I asked him if it was because this is a known problem and he said that he has the discretion to do so if the car is under 72k miles.
I imagine that it was because I had it in the previous week for the A/C fix and some routine maintenace items and I told him my leak started right after that (which was true).
They have always been able to lend me a car for the day, usually an early 90's Legacy sedan to buzz over to work in.
I know this should be in the Dealers/Service thread but this is where all you kind folks have been following this saga so here it stays.
Gotta find some time on thursdays to join this live chat stuff.
Alan 98 OBW Ltd
Air conditioning: You can hear the freon pass through the piping everytime the compressor turns on. NASTY! Drives me nuts..
Exhaust system rattles when motor has a load like starting from a stop sign!
Car bucks and tries to die sometimes and now has taken to accelarating by itself as it comes out of the (almost dying thing). Dang near ran into a car at a stoplight when it did this the first time.
Wind noise EVERYWHERE! Drivers door window WAS misaligned from factory. After I pointed it out ( the third time ) the dealership fixed it mostly. Turns out they are ALL misaligned on the new car lot. Obviously Subaru needs to FIX THE WINDOW ALIGNMENT thing at the factory. The top of the drivers window strikes the rubber guard near the top latch side when closing. (compare the alignment to the passenger door) After I asked them to re-align the window it helped the noise ten fold. I have seen many complaints here about wind noise and this helped some.
Engine knocks: Like it is coming apart especially when cold.
Long and short: I wouldn't buy another Subaru if they gave it to me for $100. It is the biggest piece of garbage I have ever driven. I had less noise from my 1976 Ford 1/2 ton with untold miles on it and bad door and window gaskets.
Oh yeah, one thing I DO LIKE. It turns sharp!
It is designed to be sprayed into the throttle body when the car is running. It stinkes like hell but does a FANTASTIC job of cleaning carbs and injector bodies. I have used it MANY times and have had great luck and saved untold dollars on poor running carb type and over the top injectors on throttle bodies as Sub uses.
P.S. I envy that someone have superman hearing.
Alland
I highly advise new purchasers to simply road test this vehicle for a lengthy time to see if you will be able to stand the racket it makes.
On the other hand my wife's 03 Outback wagon is the nicest, smoothest car I've come across in a long time. Beats my Sables hands down (I owned several Sables - I had great luck with all but one). I can hear more drivetain noises with my Forester, but its not as well sound insulated as the Outback's are. And honestly, I like the sound of a well running engine.....
No car's perfect but these two are making us happy (so far the tally between the two of us is Lincoln (1), Chevy's (2), Fords (2), Mercurys(7), & Hondas(2) - with the exception of raw horsepower (my Chevy had 350 of them) the Subaru's are the best of the lot. But there are times I miss that big block V8....... :<)
To each their own.
Larry
I can appreciate many things about Subaru as well as you. Just for the record, I am not a die hard Ford, Chevy, Dodge, whatever- fan. They all have things I hate and things I like. Combine 'em all and get one good long lasting vehicle and please the world!
The best worry free car I owned was a 1966 Pontiac!
My biggest gripe about my Sub Outback is that I have had it in the shop as much as in my driveway. Nothing but problems from day one. I would be much less aggravated at the horribly, disgustingly obnoxiously noisy drive train if I hadn't had so many other problems with it. FIVE trips into the shop in 8 months. THIS car is a hunk of crap and would be better served as recycled metal for something else.
As for ALL Subs...... No clue, this is the first and last we will own. After having NO satisfaction from the dealer was the cincher. We have had as much stuff repaired as left alone on our Outback.
We never realized that Outback meant it would have to remain parked there to last through warranty period. Alas, I (AM) venting ...........
In all fareness, saying ALL Subs are garbage wouldnt be any more fare than saying ALL salesmen are liars.
I am happy as punch for those people who love their car. Its great to like what you purchased.
Dont forget, it's TWICE as irritating when you dont.
Best of luck on your next car.
Larry
Did you buy your 2002 new? Or, was it in a wreck before you got it? Have you spoken directly with Subaru (the manufacturer)? Does your state have a lemon law?
I've owned a 1996 and a 2002 Legacy GT (both sedans). Neither has had a "noise" problem except that the boxer engine is slightly louder than conventional straight fours. In fact, I've been impressed with the fact that, aside from its great handling, the 2002 Legacy is one of the quietest vehicles I've ever owned.
Does it persist after the dealer visit?
-juice