Subaru Crew Problems & Solutions

[Deleted User]

Sounds like you have hotspots on your clutch disk and flywheel. This has been very common with newer Subaru manual transmissions, and something I just went through on my 2000 Legacy sedan.

The only way to fix the problem is to have a new clutch disk installed and the flywheel turned or replaced. While the mechanics are in there, it wouldn't be a bad idea to install a new throwout bearing, pressure plate, and clips.

Like I said, this is a common problem, but Subaru has not publicly acknowledged it yet. The key to having this repair covered under warranty is to find a sympathetic dealer, which I was lucky in doing. Some dealers will blame the situation on bad driving technique, which the warranty will not cover.

Something to keep in mind is that it appears Subaru has not changed the clutch and flywheel materials to resolve this issue long term. The new clutch could develop the exact same problem that you're experiencing now. If you read some of the related posts in this forum and the Maintenance and Repair forum, you'll find that many owners have changed their driving pattern to minimize the clutch chatter.

Good luck, and keep us posted.

-Ty

peterson10

nippononly,
yeah, its a "pop"...well, actually, I call it a cough (my wife calls it a burp). Its typically a bit muffled, more like a ballon popping than a gun going off, but impossible to ignore. It happens during steady acceleration at the moment when I let off the gas to shift. I suspect unburned fuel is finding its way to the exhaust system. As I said, it happened the very first time as I drove it off the dealer's lot; I assumed it was new engine phenomenon and would soon disappear. It hasn't. Some days, its fine. Others, it happens routinely. Changing fuel...warm engine vs cold...nothing seems to effect it. Oddly, my 2000 OB with the same engine has never "popped"...or burped. Why, I ask, does this happen with Impreza/Foresters and not Legacy/Outbacks?
Ofcousre, the service dept. at my local dealership is unable to duplicate the problem. Is this a prerequisite for becoming a technician these days; the inability to see or hear conditions detectable to everyone else?
Thanks for the chance to rant,
YetAnotherDave

ateixeira

prerequisite *chuckle*

What's weird is that the O2 sensor should catch that unburned fuel is getting through the system. I'm surprised you don't have a check engine light.

-juice

peterson10

Juice,
I just had the dealer do a diagnostic and they claim there are no codes stored. Given how sensitive the CEL seems to be, I'm surprised it hasn't responded. Maybe that means its nothing to worry about...or maybe (fade in the mood music...) they disconnected the light to keep me quiet until the warranty expires. At times like these, paranoia is not only natural, its compulsory!
YetAnotherDave

andrewf2

I have the same problem on my 02 OB, and I can never reproduce the problem when I'm with the dealer either. I've found putting in a higher octane fuel seems to help a little bit, but seeing as the problem comes and goes, its hard to tell.
In any case, last time I was at the dealer, they said that Subaru was aware of the problem, and had release an upgraded ECM for the forester/impreza to fix it, but it wasn't available yet for the legacy. Maybe ask your dealer about it.

misty12

THanks everyone for the comments. Can anyone tell me how to drive in a different way in order to minimize the clutch chatter? I'm not sure how to do this. Thanks, Misty

hgutstein

Car will bog if you don't rev it up. Get revs up to 2-3K, ease off clutch, give gas If you really want to get rid of "hot spots" juice was talking about, go up to 5k, take foot to side off clutch and floor it!!

HG

ateixeira

It should be better once the powertrain is warm. Take it easy until it is.

-juice

nippononly

smoothly and with low revs. Mine always used to shudder when I dawdled in the engagement zone for too long.

francophile

Mine does it in wet or damp weather, like we've had around here for the past 8 months or so in a row :-/ The shudder literally disappears altogether in dry weather.

As to how to engage the clutch to minimize it, the only thing I've found has already been mentioned, namely keeping the time between full disenagement and full engagement as short as practicable.

Cheers,
-wdb

once_for_all

I drove a new '03 X Forester 5MT that had noticeable shudder, and the '03 XS 5MT that I eventually bought that had no shudder. Not all the vehicles do it... my XS was assembled prior to the 12/02 clutch revision. I have to say, its lack of clutch shudder was a major reason in forking over the bigger bucks for the XS. In retrospect, I learned a good lesson: always test drive and approve the car that you are buying.

So, as far as driving mechanics, I am not sure there is a technique that eliminates the problem.

John (not Dave)

timo43

Hi,
have a 03 Forester (been very happy with it so far, aside from a persistent check-engine-light problem that is now suppose to be fixed-- but I heard that one before! --and also a small stone that punctured the tire... I mean a Very small stone!). Anyway, the basic 03 does not come with the roof racks, and we just got some along with a large cargo bin for the top (in preparation for a trip across Canada in a couple of weeks). As mentioned as a problem a couple of times in these pages, the dealer did indeed install the racks backwards...(with the wide part towards the back of the car). That's a bit surprising. But my question is this:

The info sheet / instructions for the rack are precise regarding exactly where the racks should be placed (ie, 350 mm from the back of the rack for the rear rack, and the racks are to be 700 mm apart). Well, this large cargo bin does not go for that spacing at all (the hatch hits the back of the cargo bin if the racks are set at that distance... I discovered that the hard way, and now have scratches on my car!). So the back rack had to go at about 650 mm, the forward on that much further forward. Does anyone know if this is safe? It seems obvious Subaru would have tech. reasons for being so specific, but the dealer did space the racks like that (but then again, the dealer put the racks on backwards!). Any assistance would be very much appreciated. Tim Kline. PS, I think many of the racks must go on backwards, as the pictures on the instructions seem backwards, with the front of the car shown on the left, and the back on the right.

misty12

Hi again,

 One more thing, that I think is a different problem from the clutch "shudder" which feels like a shaking. There ALSO is almost a pause in between gears, when I am shifting, which makes for a jerky shifting experience. TO really exaggerate what it is like, you get whiplash when you shift and the car jerks you back. Hard to describe in words, but it is SO DIFFERENT from my daughter's Honda Accord, which has SUCH smooth shifting. Do you think this is related to the clutch being crappy, or could something else be wrong? Thanks, Misty

misty12

OOps, forgot to mention that my car is an 03 FOrester with about 15,000 miles, manual transmission. I posted several days ago about the clutch shudder. Misty

francophile

All Subarus are all-wheel-drive. This means, in part, that there is a lot more drivetrain stuff wandering around under the car, connecting all 4 wheels to the engine and transmission. This contributes to something called "drivetrain windup" which can manifest itself as the "whiplash" effect you describe. The only realy cure for this is learning to shift gears more smoothly.

And yes, it is certainly a far cry from the smooth shifting of the front-wheel drive Honda!

rgds,
-wdb

otis123

Check out those Forester side impact crash test results released today at the Insurance Institute site! Creamed the competition!
 http://www.highwaysafety.com/news_releases/2003/pr061703.htm

SUBARU, give us side curtain air bags and knee air bags on the 2005 Outback/Leagacy!! Actually, put them in all your models (if you want to sell more cars in the US market...) I for one will pay more to protect my big head from bouncing off the pillar or crashing into the window...

:-)

Ralph

lucien2

Just hopped in the car and headed for the office, but the temp gauge headed borth in a hurry. Pulled over, shut it down, went hunting. Plenty of coolant in the overfill reservoir, seems to be good level in radiator, although the trusty STi cap did release some pressure. No leaks around head gasket, oil might be low (can't tell really since the car was running AND it's a boxer= unreliable dipstick read). Well I turn around and head for home, hoping I'll make it before she blows. Shut her down every stoplight yadda yadda and then.....*poof* temp back to normal, problem disappears. Should I try going to work or head straight for the dealer (or, at 67K, my local mechanic)? I've got a lot of work to do but don't want to risk a head gasket failure away from home.....

Of Course temp problems on a Phase I with 67k usually means only one thing... :-((

locke2c

smell the coolant in the overflow. if it smells like exhaust, uh oh.

on level ground and the radiator at a reasonable temp-- don't burn yourself-- open the cap and fill until full with the engine running. watch the gauge and be sure it doesn't get hot.

then park with the nose of the car facing up a hill, so it's higher than the rear. take off cap again and let the engine run until the thermostat fully opens (you'll see the water circulation increase). this should burp any air from the system.

that's about all you can do without tools...

-Colin

rsholland

could it be a sticking thermostat?

Bob

locke2c

could be a water pump, too. it's not necessarily a head gasket YET but that will soon be added to whatever is wrong if you let it overheat.

-Colin

jmulholl

Just finished very frustrating talk with service rep. She now says that there is no evidence of the hesitation I first brought the 00 legacy in for --- hesitation when going from reverse to drive before car warmed up. Subaru rep was at dealer yesterday, and said he couldn't detect any shifting problems --- but it's not clear he checked for the hesitation going from reverse to drive that I first brought the car in for.

What ticks me off is that the dealer is changing its story. First agreeing that there indeed was a hesitation, and that they needed to bring a subaru rep in to look at it. Now they are saying that the hesitation was fixed when they changed the transmission fluid. The fact is the hesitation is still there, and somewhat worse than before. I can understand a difference of opinion about how well, say, the car shifts from second to third. But the hesitation going from reverse to drive is quite obvious.

   What makes matters worse is my inability to talk to the mechanic that worked on the car. All communication goes thru a gobetween who seems to know little about cars, which increases the chances of miscommunication. When I asked to talk to the mechanic, she initially said yes and said he would call me. But then she called back and said dealer policy is that I cannot talk to the mechanic --- only here or her manager. Very strange.

So, next stop is subaru directly. I think you guys mentioned a 800 number, or Patti. Should have done this is the first place it seems.

                         Joe

lucien2

seems to be the likely culprit. No evidence of exhaust in coolant, coolant levels all great.....and the vents blow warm air even when set to cold. I'll replace it and go from there. Is it hard to do?

c_hunter

Should be a piece of cake to replace, but then again, the last time I did this was on an old (~63 I think) Impala SS!

The symptoms you describe could definitely be a stuck thermostat, and that would be getting off easy. Make sure you rule out the other possibilities anyway.

Craig

ateixeira

Hope that's it. It's cheap so I'd try it first regardless.

If you do the water pump, might as well to the timing belt now too.

-juice

ateixeira

Not sure that belongs in a Problems forum, Ralph! :-)

Maybe you should post that in every other manufacturer's problem forum, or at least the 9 out of 12 that earned a "Poor". LOL

-juice

idahodoug

I suspect you're thinking of "axle windup", which is the twisting of an axle normally associated with a 4wd vehicle turning sharply with locked differentials. I disagree with the characterization that Subes or any AWD vehicle inherently have any type of "windup" or "flex/whip" in the drivetrain. Since Subes have longitudinal engines (vs laterally oriented FWD vehicles), they are actually less likely to have drivetrain sourced impacts that would cause jerkiness while shifting. In addition, if a FWD vehicle suffers from "drivetrain windup" while being driven by 2 wheels, then an AWD vehicle should suffer less since the same power is being divided between 2 axles, which would cause less axle/drivetrain flex.

I suspect the difference between the Honda and Sube in shifting smoothness is simply a drivetrain that better suits your driving technique. I've driven vehicles that were very tough to shift smoothly that cost a lot of money, and I've driven bottom of the line stripped vehicles that were a breeze to shift smoothly. Lots of variance out there and lots of variables to create differences on manuals.

IdahoDoug

idahodoug

The warm air is not evidence of a thermo issue, really. But if you're going to change it, I'd save some of the coolant (you'll dump most/all of it to change a thermo, so might as well completely drain and refill w/ fresh) and bring it to a Caterpillar dealer for analysis. Use a sterile glass container. This is key info that could save you money for a damaged engine if they tell you there's oil or combustion byproducts in the coolant BEFORE the gasket blows....

On my 2.2, the thermostat is on the bottom of the engine where the rad hose hits the block. Piece of cake to get to.

IdahoDoug

lucien2

for the car. I'm going to have a shot at the thermostat, and also install my carbotech pads. I'm trying to decide about rotors, but I think I'll wait till I find out how the stockers are doing at my 60k on tuesday. I don't think I'll do SS lines unless the stockers are looking tired too.

francophile

Axles are one source of drivetrain windup, as is every engine mount, transmission mount, differential mount, driveshaft mount, cv joint, driveshaft, and who knows what else in the drivetrain of an AWD car. When subjected to power from the engine and motivating the vehicle, these items all load themselves in a particular direction. When power is removed, for example by taking one's foot off the gas, they all unload, then reload in the opposite direction under the force of deceleration. Press the gas and everything unloads/reloads again. At low speeds in low gears this can be a very very herky-jerky experience, especially in manual transmission cars with no handy-dandy torque converter to slip. Add the fact that more of the tires are providing traction, and you get a situation that feels very, very different from the same type of activity in a 2WD car. (Then add an aggressive throttle tip-in...)

Subies are prone to this, and I've heard very similar comments about them from several other first-time drivers in the past. It doesn't mean that anything is necessarily wrong with the car, but it may very well mean that a Subie will amplify less-than-smooth driving skills more than, say, a Honda Accord.

rgds,
-wdb

francophile

This is an after-the-fact test but it might be interesting anyway, and it might help you diagnose whether the thermostat was the culprit.

The test is simple: Drop the old thermostat into a pot of water and bring it to a boil. You should be able to see it open. This may or may not work based on the temperature at which it was designed to open and your ability to heat the water to that level; back in the day they used to stamp the temperature setting on the thermostat so maybe you will be able to figure out whether you can do this or not. Also you can add salt to the water to raise its boiling point if need be.

Good luck,
-wdb

locke2c

thermostats usually are 180F-190F on modern cars... should work fine sans salt.

-Colin

nippononly

driver experience with a manual is going to be the primary factor in determining how "jerky" the drive is...I drove an AWD Subaru for years and have driven plenty of front-drivers, and the Subaru can be shifted just as smoothly as any other car.

snowbelter

Just returned from the dealer w/ my wife's 00 OB sedan. Thought I was there for an oil change and a state inspection. Was told (and saw for myself) that the front brakes were worn at 33k and the inside edge of the rotors caked w rust so they needed turning. The tech told me that the pads were worn with a groove from the rust. The Service Manager said we were doing well to have Subie brakes last to 33k (they aren't made like they once were), the tech said he sees a lot of this because of all the salt used on the roads in the winter, and that the design of Subie brakes (sliders are made in a way that doesn't drain well) doesn't help. Spoke w Subaru Customer service as my wife is light on the brakes and with her other cars has hit 50k or more before she needed new pads (and because 01 and later Subies have a wear warranty in excess of 12 months for 00 models). But they refused to help even after I suggested that they pay for half of the $235 charge. Just a couple weeks back I had to have the rotors turned on my 02 VDC because of pulsation. I'm not impressed with the durability of Subaru brakes and rotors. Had no clue my wife's car had a problem as its stopped fine and there was no pulsation. At the cashier's window was the owner of an 01 OB who had just had brakes done on all four wheels at 31k (under warranty)

once_for_all

something great about the subie is that the axle differentials are in the center of the axles, due to the boxer engine configuration. I can't think of any other vehicle like it, unless some of the boxer Porches come with AWD. This configuration makes it a lot easier to eliminate pull left or right on acceleration and deceleration.

John

once_for_all

IIRC the brakes on '03 Imprezas and Foresters are beefed up, due to problems of this sort. I am hoping that someone (Juice?) can chime in with solid info on the disc brake changes.

John

snowbelter

Forgot to mention that the car had its 30k checkup at the dealer the end of February, some 3100k miles ago. No mention of any brake concerns from the dealer then. The service manager tells that the brakes and rotors must have been fine back in February (And isinsulted by my implication that the brakes weren't inspected at 30k) and that rust must have formed since then on the rotors which then wore out the brakes. I wouldn't have been very happy to have heard in February that the brakes were wearing, but could this all have happened in three months/3000 miles?

ballistic

snowbeltr wrote "...and that rust must have formed since then on the rotors which then wore out the brakes."

I can't figure out how this phenomenon occurred in the first place. What is the longest period of time the vehicle sat unused? I have never seen a trace of rust on the region that the pads actually contact on any disk brake rotor of any vehicle that is driven at least once every few days. The pads sweep that region clean and bright every time the brakes are applied. Rust can certainly form on the areas of the rotor that the pads do NOT contact, but would have no effect on the pads.

- jb

snowbelter

My wife uses her car almost every day of the week; 12 miles commute each way. Tons of salt are used here in the winter; washed the car 2-4 times a month to get rid of the salt.

fudd2be

Hi,

fudd2be

Hi,

Sorry about the previous post - my computer has a mind of its own. Anyway -

I also live in a highly salted area in the winter (Rochester, NY). I have an Outback Wagon and the brakes lasted to 58K miles, with hard driving no less. Maybe I am a fluke?

-Howard

idahodoug

Sounds like a load of baloney to me.

IdahoDoug

nippononly

you may need to seek a better dealer for service.

otis123

How could you be a fluke living that far from the ocean?

Sorry, I couldn't resist...

Ralph

jhayman2

2000 Outback Wagon, 4/auto.45k miles.

Noise coming from front end....I suspect suspension or steering.

I bought the car new and the noise started about 10k. The noise sounds like a bad strut. I can actually feel it in the steering wheel. It is associated with bumps in the road below 35 mph.

The dealership said it was "strut action" noise. Is there anyone else out there with "strut action" noise?? I have never heard of this and have not experienced this on other cars with struts.

To me it sounds like a bushing on the strut is shot, but it isn't. I have gone over the vehicle with 2 mechanics and we have found nothing wrong. The dealership has been good about it, but I still have a loud clunking sound coming from the front end, after hitting a bump or using a gravel road. It is very noticable and not pleasant to listen too. I have had it now for a long time and the wheels are still attached but it is getting louder and I am getting a safety concern.

Anyone else out there with "strut action" noise??

Thanks for any replies,

John

nygreg

No noise here. Always solid going over bumps.

Greg

hypov

Didn't the '00s have this quirk of clunking going over bump when wheels are turned?
Memory isn't serving me well, but I think one of the model years had that.

-Dave

en5

My 2000 Legacy wagon produces a clunking noise, but only when the wheels are turned and when I go over a bump at slow speed, it sounds bad and it feels as if something is loose in the front suspension or steering , it is not making this noise when the wheels are pointing straight. I was unable to fix this, the dealer admitied it was making the noise but said it was normal.

fudd2be

Hi,

Yup mine has it too since the day it was born. Just learned to live with it. It always happens when wheels are turned going slow over bumps.

Patti, the subaru rep who lurks around here (I don't know if she still does) posted a technical explanantion for it a few years ago. Something to do with a pressure differential present in the power steering system.

Try to do a search, or maybe juice remembers?

-Howard

outback_97

This is addressed in: TSB 04-09-01

It's annoying, but not a safety issue.

My '97 does it, exactly as described, over uneven surfaces, gravel, turning into driveways, etc. Many '95 thru '00 Legacies have this quirk. Email me at outback_97 at hotmail dot com and I can send you some more info if you're interested. My dealer was clueless about it, even when I described the problem EXACTLY as it's described in the TSB.

utahsteve

jhayman2

Thanks for all of the information about this clunking noise, but I guess the question now is, has anyone ever gotten it fixed?? I have not been able to find the TSB. Does it actually suggest a solution? Has anyone ever gotten it done??

Thanks,

John