Subaru Crew Problems & Solutions

troop2shos

Nah, you had it right with the cooling system issues & its capacity to reduce heat, but I just expanded it a little - some from experience. Just watch out for those 1 time "torque to yield" strength fasteners...
Regards,

nygreg

mine was done in 1 day. They only did the one side though.

Greg

fig_28680

Gunk(oil) showed up in the overflow tank. Have done a coolant flush and replaced thermostat to no avail. Vehicle now has sporadic episodes of overheating. You can stop the vehicle, place in neutral, rev engine to 2500-3000 RPMs and temp returns to normal. Have to top off coolant frequently and is nearly impossible to get all trapped air purged. Virtually no oil consumption (130,000 miles on vehicle) and great power. Any definitive testing method to determine if this is a head gasket?? If this is the problem does any one have opinion on engine sealants? Can this stuff harm my engine and make matters worse? Or is it worth a try?

jay_24

All I can say is... me too.
2001 OB wagon with 47k miles.

--jay

zman3

My 98 OB does the same thing. It is not enough of an annoyance to make me spend the money to do something about it. Some things I have noticed on mine is that:

a) Turning the key and letting it sit for a couple of seconds to let fuel pressure build has no effect.

b) Letting the vehicle idle for a few minutes has no effect.

c) If I put the car in R, then N, then D, and back to R to back out of a parking spot, then it typically does not hesitate.

I don't know what item c) does but it seems to lessen/eliminate the occurence.

Karl

paisan

Did you stop and check to see that they didn't have newer/better tires? Maybe they had snow tires? When you skidded maybe you were driving too fast for conditions? Also 17K miles on tires could be past their usable life, not necessarily the tread but the compound could be too hard after 17K miles.

-mike

samiam_68

Pressure test the cooling system (long test - you can use the Snap-On tester). Put the tester on, apply and lock the pressure, leave overnight. If the reading changes, you have either a bad gasket or another coolant leak somewhere.

03xngreen

Two a week? Geez...

Thanks for the advice on the pressure tester. I did a quick search and it looks like they're about $100 or so. Might not be a bad investment for some.

bluesubie

From what I've read, it's because the head gasket material wasn't up to snuff.

mrk610 - Any chance you have a manual?

-Dennis

krccrk

After driving hundreds of miles in my 5-speed Forester XT I turned in my hotel parking spot and got some loud squealing noise from the right side (opposite side from the battery) of the engine compartment. Experimenting in the parking lot the noise did not happen when turning the steering wheel but only after driving a few feet with the wheels turned, in either direction. Appeared to be related to the left and right side wheels traveling different amounts. It went away after the car cooled down.

Any guesses as to the cause?

Ken

fibber2

The head gasket issue has been the subject of speculation for some time. And at 15k miles on my '02 OBW H4 (phase II, SOHC), I too have gone down this road. I watched deposits develop on the back of the head/block (white-ish crystals, dirty green & slightly oily film on the aluminum engine) and underlying grey painted frame crossmember behind cyl 4 (drivers side firewall) over a period of 2+ months. All the while I was very slowly adding coolant to keep the level even and watching to see that this was the only spot it was coming out. This level of seepage is very small, and might have remained manageable for a long time had I not been actively looking for it. I have to admit, that I was slightly in denial at first, and waited until I was 100% sure before reporting it.

A close friend of mine with a '99 OBW (phase I DOHC) had the more advanced overheating, coolant burp - seems to recover - then returns case. Similar symptoms were described in the last few posts, and maybe are more typical of older cars, or simply those with advanced failure.

A long time acquaintance who owns a private foreign car shop (former Subaru employee ??) told me that he also changes a lot of these. Had it happen on his own wife's car. The head torque sequence on Subi engines is quite complex. He finds that cyl 4 bolts seem to loosen up, allowing scrubbing of the gasket, and sometimes grooving of the head and block deck that requires machining prior to reassembly. Why they loosen is still an open question. Sometimes retorque on early seepage will restore / forestall further damage. It is a patch, but it sometime works for those that do not want to spend the $2k or so for a full gasket job. He initially tried retorquing my friends '99, but it was too far gone.

The good part in this is that Patti and her team have bent over backwards trying to help out where they can. But as she said, thoroughly understanding the failure mode and root cause, plus developing & testing a corrective action plan takes time, and she cannot discuss the issues until corporate approves.

Steve

lark6

All your talk of FMEA, root cause analysis and CAPAs sounds too much like work to me! And here I caome out to Edmund's to get away from that!

J/K of course, but I have recently put together a workshop for pharma and medical device industry executives covering all of those topics.

Ed

nygreg

Not sure I agree with the bolts loosening. I had slow coolant loss from day 1 and since the fix my level has not changed. This tells me that it was leaking at some level from the beginning. I also don't buy the "bad gasket material" argument as it is almost always cylinder 4 and you would expect to see it on both sides. Right now I am leaning towards assembly as I await more data. Be interesting to know more details when Subaru releases it's finding.

Greg

fibber2

Sorry for ruining your lunch, Ed!

I agree, Greg, that there may be more that one issue at play here. I am repeating what one experienced source told me - that the head bolts at that corner are often loose on disassembly. Assuming this is correct, you can be sure that some guys at FHI have burned may hours of supercomputer time on finite element analysis studying dynamic stress variations across the H4 block. Something is at play for the failures to be so concentrated at one corner of the engine. Do the fasteners actually turn, or is it a material science question?

Remember that failures take place in two stages. 1) Little failure - seepage from the 15psi cooling passages to the outside. 2) Big failure - combustion chamber leakage of 150psi gases to the cooling passages & beyond.

lark6

That's okay, it just hits close to home on several levels.

As a Phase II EJ25 owner who has experienced leaky (though not catastrophically failing) head gaskets I am also very interested in the findings as well. More specifically I'd like to know whether repeated failures occur once the repairs (corrective actions) have been made. This would lend credence to the "materials science question" and would play a significant role in my deciding whether to hang on to my car past the expiration of its warranty.

I'd also like to know in detail (at least in greater detail than I've been able to find in doing internet searches) if/how the new 2.5L H4 turbos differ in head design from the EJ25s. I'm one of those "on the fence" guys who'd like to replace my car with a Forester XT or Legacy GT, though I honestly can't say how soon that will happen. Knowing that the design of the new block, heads and gaskets may decrease the likelihood of gasket failure would make me feel more confident about making that choice.

Ed

nygreg

The new 2.5 turbos will have variable valve timing also. This should alter the head and gasket design (maybe).

Greg

ken_from_nj

ok - i have a 03 forester xs - what type engine does it have?

nygreg

normally aspirated, SOHC, 4 valves/cylinder, H4, noninterference(?), boxer.

Greg

ken_from_nj

yeah - that's it - 2.5l sohc 4valves/cylinder h-4 - 165hp. does this mean "phase I" or "phase II" or what is this EJ25 thing? basically - what i'm getting at is must/should i be worried about this head gasket thing & should i check for this leakage? haven't done so yet but am only 15k into ownership @ about 15 months. tks

ballistic

Variable valve timing, by itself, wouldn't require any change in the head-to-block interface or in the gasket design. As implemented by Subaru, it's accomplished by applying or relieving hydraulic pressure at the cam-drive pulley on the nose of the camshaft, either advancing or retarding it from its central index position.

outback_97

Is open deck vs. "semi-closed" deck.

This has some good technical info on the Forester XT's engine:

http://subaru.com.au/downloads/929305.pdf
Page 8 (of 20) shows the different deck configurations of the normally aspirated and turbo 2.5l blocks.

So, the turbo 2.5's in the Forester and STi are definitely not just turbo versions of the old EJ25. Whether that means they won't have head gasket issues remains to be seen. I'll let someone who knows more than me (not difficult) explain why a semi-closed deck is better than an open deck, but it would seem to be more robust.

Now, talking about the non-turbo 2.5 liters in the Legacy:
Phase 1 EJ25 = DOHC made in '96-'99.
Phase 2 EJ25 = SOHC '00 to present.
Someone else who knows more than me should be able to provide more specific information about which cars got which engines when, this covers most of them though.

utahsteve

dcm61

Phase 1 DOHC was used in '98 Forester and Impreza 2.5RS, switched to Phase 2 SOHC starting in '99.

DaveM

ballistic

Metal flexes under load, and flexing in an engine is not a good thing. Open-deck engines have less support structure between the engine block and the cylinders. Semi- and closed-deck blocks add reinforcing ribs to connect these structures and to thus reduce unwanted flexing. I'd say that all other things being equal, an open-deck block just might be more vulnerable to head-gasket failure than the more stable, more rigid closed-deck design.

lark6

Just what I was looking for!

Ed

ballistic

The flipside is that closed-deck designs, by reducing the area of cylinder exposed to circulating coolant, probably are less effective at cooling. One would hope the engineers would make allowance for that.

lark6

Beefier radiators, oil coolers and higher-flow water and oil pumps can compensate for some of that.

Ed

sebberry

Is the current H6 in the Outback an open or closed deck engine?

jmdeleha

I bought an '04 Outback two months ago, my first Subaru. I am delighted with it. And I was equally happy with the smart, straightforward people at the dealership. I am impressed with Subaru to the point of feeling (after many years owning various cars) the first pleasant stirrings of brand loyalty.

I am not impressed with my Outback's windshield, however. It is the only disappointment.

In all my years of previous driving, I had had two stone-cracked windshields and one stone-pitted windshield. This was over 32 years.

After two months of driving my new Outback (4,000 miles), the windshield has been hit by three very small stones, resulting in one three-inch crack and two half-dime-size pits. And every bit of sand from every sanding truck or speeding semi near me me seems to have caused a tiny abrasion in the glass. So my windshield after two months is cracked, pitted, and glitters in the sun with hundreds of tiny starbursts.

I have always lived in the north, where sand and gravel are spread on icy roads, and my driving habits (plenty of distance from vehicles ahead of me, especially snowplows and sanding trucks) have not changed. I am nearly certain that gravel and sand that would not have damaged previous windshields are damaging this one.

I have looked through previous postings on this subject, and I think I get the drift: must be bad luck; look into windshield repair instead of expensive replacement; consider zero-deductible insurance.

I will do the latter two. But I'm pretty sure that this is not bad luck. If Subaru is allowing use of an inferior grade of glass on Outback windshields, it should reconsider. These cars are sold as climate busters for northerners. We deal with excessive road gravel and sand on heavily traveled highways. There will be debris in the air every winter where Subaru sells most Outbacks. The mirror-warmers, the wiper-warmers, the rump roasters: these are wonderful little winter luxuries. But in the markets where Outbacks sell, the cold-weather feature that will really impress is first class glass.

Any advice beyond what I've noted would be welcome. If someone out there knows for a fact that the glass used on '04 Outbacks is not inferior, I will have to concede that I have had lousy luck. I'll be interested if anyone does have facts.

But mainly I wanted to state my single gripe, hoping someone from Subaru might see it. Potential Subaru buyers: don't let this or other little irritations appearing on sites like this dissuade you. Every car sold will have problems. The internet means that compulsives such as I can broadcast our troubles far and wide. My Outback is an extremely nice little wagon, exactly what I was hoping for, really fun and hyperfunctional. Except for this one small bother, which you may not experience.

JD

goneskiian

James,
Congrats on your Outback! Sorry to hear about your disapointing windshield though. ;-(

Be sure you go to www.subaru.com and use the contact function to voice your displeasure as well. Going directly to them can't hurt.

-Ian

sebberry

I have an 03 Outback and recently experienced the same "sandblasting" problems.

I was following a truck on a dusty road and it's spray of debris from the tires was more than enough to cause significant sandblasting on the windshield.

A second trip along that same road a few month later resulted in a stone chip with no crack. At that point I had the windshield replaced under insurance.

I had asked if there was a repair available for the sandblasting, but there isn't.

It is possible that the crack developed if you had the heat on inside the car while it was cold outside. The temperature difference alone could have placed stress on the windshield, resulting in an instant crack.

There are only a few auto glass makers around, so it isn't due to an inferior brand. A design flaw, possibly.

the hood deflector may also help with some of the flying debris.

You are mistaken on one comment however. You say that the Outback is a nice little wagon. I'll rephrase that for you: "The Outback is a kick a** road warrior"

Good to hear you like it, enjoy

Cheers!

jay_24

James,
you wouldn't happen to be from Wisconsin?
Sand and salt (way to much) are an unpleasant fact of life in this State. The windshield on my Subie has been replaced one time the past 3 years. That is much more than the GMC Jimmy I owned that had 2 in 10 years. However its less than the Plymouth mini-van we had. 2 in 1 year and a total of 3 for the 5 years we had it. I think its more due to the angle and areodynamics of the car. Subies being lower and farly areodynamic probabbly just take a few more shots to the glass?
Back to the sand and salt... maybe the State should stop sanding and salting and make it manditory to drive Subies?

--jay

bluesubie

nabisco has a very lengthy head gasket thread.
I email or pm you.

-Dennis

georgeinmd

for what they're worth... I'm about to get my 3rd replacement windshield in 5 years for my '99 Forester. The replacements were all from a large, well known auto glass company. All damge has occurred on the same stretch of highway, on which I've commuted for 20 years (ouch!). During the 15 years previous to driving the Forester (in a Toyota Tercel and Mitsubishi Expo), I never had to replace one. Do the math. Fortunately (for me, anyway) MD requires insurers to provide full glass coverage. Still, one of the best cars I've owned. -- George

p0926

JD- Subaru uses Safelite auto glass which is one of the biggest names in the business so I see no reason to think that the glass is inferior. Bad luck certainly plays a part but I think you omitted the most likely culprit and that's the angle of the windshield combined with design aerodynamics (as alluded to above). You may want to try a hood deflector as a way to decrease your chances of getting hit (although there’s nothing definite that says it works).

-Frank P.

nygreg

My Score: Sienna WS = 2 chips, OB WS = 0 after 2.5 years of ownership. Is it possible that the increased use of trucks (read SUVs) throwing gravel has an impact? BTW - my OB has the hood deflector. Sienna does not.

Greg

pathtomax

I would try the hood deflector. I have one on my 2001 Outback and it seems to help quite a bit. I commute 60 miles in NH terrain and nothing (knock on my plastic wood) has hit the windshield. My previous car, a 2000 Maxima, seemed like quite the target. That car also had the worst paint job, the lights were all pitted...don't get me started!

The Subaru paint, lights and windshield are all working out very well

nygreg

some claim here to have replaced their WS and continued to have chips. In most cases the replaced WS is not Subaru OEM.

Greg

ateixeira

Frank: is it Safelite now? Mine is Carlex. More proof that it's just a coincidence, that's two different suppliers.

Oddly, our Mazda 626 broke 2 windshields. Our family has had 5 Subies and none ever broke. Call it luck of the draw.

JB: you just gave Ed the excuse he's been looking for.

Here's another, the XT is overengineered. It is a de-tuned STi engine, not a tuned up Phase II engine.

Seth taught me even more detailed nomenclature:

EJ255 = XS engine
EJ257 = XT and STi engine
EJ20 = WRX engine
EZ30 = H6 engine

Note that only the EJ 257 gets the semi-closed deck block.

-juice

jfl

So which engine is in the turbo Legacy?

Jim

m4eth

What nominclature is given to the Phase II engine for the NA...also what where the major changes from Phase I to Phase II for the NA...lighter weight and no cast iron????

ballistic

JB: you just gave Ed the excuse he's been looking for.

Always glad to grow the Subaru family.

So, Ed, when are you going to announce the new addition to your family? Cigars all around will be in order.

ballistic

So which engine is in the turbo Legacy?

The XT and Baja Turbo both use the same engine - a detuned version of the STi. The Legacy Turbo will also use this same engine, with a state of tune about midway between the XT/Baja and the STi.

subearu

that makes it too 'general'. ;-) All the information on the Legacy GT states that the engine is 'based' on the STi engine, but it has a different turbo, intercooler, and engine block. I too think it has the same code: EJ257

-Brian

paisan

EJ25 = Phase I and phase II engines in the subies
EG33 = SVX
EJ27 = XT6
EJ18 = 1.8l
EJ18t = 1.8l Turbo
EJ22 = 2.2L
EJ22t = 2.2L Turbo Closed Deck (both the 22b and the legacy turbo have this)

-mike

dcm61

I thought the 1.8 turbo that was in the GL / Loyale series was an EA18. Did they ever have a turbo version of the Impreza EJ18?

DaveM

jfl

The primary change was DOHC (dual overhead cam) in the phase I to SOHC in the phase II.

In post #2441, I was simply wondering if the new turbo Legacy had the EJ257 or a different engine.

Jim

lark6

If you mean our son or my wife's Honda Pilot, I think I've mentioned them already. Too soon to say if/when my current Subie gets replaced.

Ed

mrk610

If I understand your question I have an 4eat with 37k miles on it . Taking the car into the dealer on monday to have headgasket fixed . As per my other posts I have not to this day lost any coolant I am only leaking oil.

Mike k

dcm61

Now that I think about it, I believe it was an EA82.

DaveM

bjhesq

1999 Subaru - clutch failed at 41,000 miles. $1200 to replace. Dealership alleges driver error/driver habits as cause of clutch failure and refuses to consider the part as defective. Driver has never had clutch related-issues in 16 years hundreds of thousands of miles driving standard shift cars.

New clutch, with only a few hundred miles on it, is already beginning to burn.

There appears to be no shortage of similar complaints on various web posts. However, not much in terms of expert opinions as to whether the clutch problem is, in fact, due to manufacturer's defect. Does anyone have any info or advice for nailing down this problem, or perhaps know anyone who has successfully fought Subaru of America on this and won? Anyone know of any lawsuits filed, or complaints filed w/ AG offices, the NTSB, the FTC or other car/consumer protection groups and agencies.

If so - please let me know. Reply to bjhesq@peoplepc.com

Thanks.