Subaru Crew Problems & Solutions

stevek

I had a notchy and chopie steering on gravel which went away after an alignment. This is my first Subaru and it looks like they are not very forgiving when it comes to alignment. Fortunately there is a very good mechanic in my area with a brand new "star wars" Hunter alignment machine.

jcabin

Yes Patti is involved and I have a case number. I was told that the dealer is waiting for when the rep is expected to arrive at the dealership, could be a month I was told. They are not speedy!

ballistic

Whether you realize it or not, you've been using the turbo :-) which kicks in pretty much any time you accelerate (regardless of the rpm).

Disagree. Mine has the boost gauge. In everyday driving, keeping pace with traffic, even climbing moderate hills, I have no difficult at all keeping the XT boost gauge below zero (meaning in the vacuum range). The 2.5 engine with variable valve timing produces ample power in normal driving without boost.

p0926

Neither keeping pace with traffic nor climbing moderate hills can be considered accelerating in my book. Of course the Forester has plenty of power to maintain a given speed but watch your boost gauge and tell me if it doesn't jump everytime you accelerate. Well maybe not the way you drive but for most people it will :-)

-Frank P

ballistic

Neither keeping pace with traffic nor climbing moderate hills can be considered accelerating in my book.

???? You have an odd book there. When surrounding traffic is accelerating, as it often does (from stoplights, etc.), then keeping pace with it is accelerating in my book; otherwise, if you're not accelerating at the same rate, the traffic passes you by. Likewise, adding enough throttle to maintain speed while climbing moderate hills is functionally the same as accelerating on level ground. The XT can easily do this without requiring boost.

My point is that when the XT is driven in synch with surrounding traffic (as mine usually is, rather than shoving the throttle through the firewall), there rarely is the need to call on the reserves of XT power that require boost. Ergo, the gauge stays below zero.

edunnett

Ok, question for the masses (this is to help settle a debate - NO, I did NOT red-line my new XT during break-in! :-)

If one were to rev their car beyond the recommended gearing ratio and take the tachometer needle passed the red-line for a few seconds at a time on one or two very rare occassions, could this lead to engine or transmission damage? Could it immediately cause any problems? Could it stress he engine and tranny enough to possibly lead to problems later on down the road? My husband thinks that some cars "love RPM" because a BMW sales person told him this once so he has no natural fear of red lines any more. :-( I'm trying to convince him otherwise before he gets in the XT. Please help point me to some convincing evidence that he should not do this!
:-) -elissa

subearu

no need to worry, the ECM (engine computer) will prevent most all modern vehicles from exceding their redline limit. Typically this is done by cutting the fuel automatically. One can 'bounce' off the rev-limiter, so-to-speak. The engine is kept safe from destroying itself.

Not something you should do daily, but you shouldn't be afraid of it. The boxer sounds nice at WOT (wide open throttle) :-)

-Brian

jfl

It's my understanding that all manufacturers rev engines to redline coming off the assembly line. As long as the car is warmed up, I wouldn't worry about it.

For an interesting treatise on the subject, check out http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm. It's focused on motorcycles but internal combustion theory doesn't change based on the number of wheels you have. Apply his ideas at your own risk.

Jim

elissa - on a second thought, don't let your husband see the above article!

p0926

Unfortunately the information you've provided is exactly what Elissa doesn't want to hear as it supports her husband's argument that it's okay to rev the engine. Were you true friends you'd have made up a story about how bad reving was and how it could easily cause permanent damage ;-) Unless that is if it's Elissa wanting to do the reving in which case it would be okay :-)

-Frank P

edunnett

Jim, that is one scary article! I don't know what to do with that... Do I risk damaging my new engine and take his advice? Or risk damaging my engine and drive the car easy during break in? I fear no matter what I do, I'm doomed to a lifetime of leaky pistons... But anyway, I think you've all allayed my fears of handing my husband the car keys. :-) Thanks! -elissa

samiam_68

When your turbo gauge moves, especially at low RPMs, the turbo is working, even if the gauge shows below zero. ZERO is a RELATIVE measurement on a turbo gauge, not an absolute measure. At zero on the gauge, your turbo is actualy providing 14.7 PSI of boost, to neutralize one atmosperic pressure unit. The Forester is rated at around 12 PSI max boost, as far as I can remember, which in turn means that the turbo has to pump 26.7 PSI so that the gauge registers 12.

ballistic

Sorry, but that is absolute nonsense. Normal atmospheric pressure at sea level is 14.7 psi. A combination boost-and-vacuum gauge tapped into the intake manifold downstream of the turbocharger and throttle body, registering zero, (or actually very slightly below, to allow for normal pumping losses) is showing the precise point at which the engine is operating at normal, natural atmospheric pressure - no more, no less. Non-forced-induction engines approach very close to zero on vacuum gauges under wide-open-throttle at moderate RPMs. This has been known for decades. Turbochargers do not change physics.

I am not suggesting that the turbocharger impeller is not spinning under conditions when the boost gauge registers zero or less. What I am saying is that the impeller is just coasting along, adding nothing to manifold pressure above what a naturally-aspirated engine would show. Only when the manifold gauge swings to somewhere in the above-zero range is the turbocharger actually applying any boost beyond what the 14.7-psi atmosphere is already capable of supplying.

ballistic

None of the chronic leadfoots will ever agree, but I view a manufacturer's specified redline as a never-to-exceed maximum engine speed, to be reached only in emergencies or other rare circumstances. If you customarily keep an engine's maximum RPM well below the redline, you will be rewarded with a far longer engine life than any of the other "experts" will achieve. Do otherwise, and the converse will nearly always be true.

Also, do not believe that the Forester XT's engine management system will prevent the engine from revving higher than the 6500 redline. The fact is that this engine's fuel cutoff doesn't kick in until the engine reaches 7,500RPM. This has been authoritatively reported by a number of XT owners on another forum.

samiam_68

Ballistic - what you say is incorrect when it comes to turbocharged engines. Prove it to yourself - put it in neutral, depress the clutch, and rev the engine hard. The turbo gauge will not move at all. Turbos spool up ONLY under load, therefore, when you see that needle moving, whether it's below zero, or not, you have boost.

Another experiment - with the engine off, turn the key to RUN, the gauge should register zero, or exactly 1 atmosperic pressure (on a clear day at sea level). Up in the mountains, it will register slighty below zero. With the engine running, the turbo has to overcome vacuum inside the engine (14.7 PSI) to bring the gauge up to zero. Above zero on the gauge, the turbo is pumping more than 14.7 PSI into the engine.

While naturally aspirated engines approach zero vacuum under WOT at moderate RPMs through the use of atmospheric pressure, turbocharged engines approach that same reading through the use of boost. If you have a load on the engine, the turbo WILL kick in.

So, if you're going up a slight incline, and the gauge is off the bottom limiter, but still below zero, guess what - you've got boost and the turbo is whistling away!

With the XT, boost comes early and readily. In the WRX, on the other hand, boost comes very late. This is mainly a function of two factors - XT's bigger displacement (bigger engine, more exhaust pressure, more boost) and a different turbo design (lighter, faster spool-up). Engine electronics and wastegate design also play a role, although somewhat lesser.

As far as rev limiters - in the XT the fuel cut kicks in at exactly 6500-6550 RPM (about 29-30 MPH in first gear). I've hit the cutoff several times when accelerating onto a highway from a dead stop.

edunnett

On an earlier post Jim/jfi referred me to a link suggesting new car owners should break in their new engines by running them hard (in a regulated way) and disregarding the owners manual about being gentle. Other links I found suggested that hard was also good but not to exceed the max rpm specified in owners manual. I found enough evidence to suggest that a few good runs at high RPM through each of the gears would help seat/seal the pistons better and lead to a longer lasting higher performance engine. Ok, so I gave it a try. If I have questions 30K miles from now about pistons leaking, you know this didn't work! I put it in first and ran for 30sec-1min at 3500-3900 RPM did the same for 2nd and 3rd gear, Tried to the same in Drive on a big hill on the highway. Only did this after the engine was thoroughly warmed up and let it chill for a few minutes between runs. Never took it over 4000 RPM. Let the engine slow the car down at the end of a run rather than braking. I can't see that this violated anything in owners manual and hopefully did a little toward sitting those pistons better? Who knows? I read that this should be done before 200 miles are on the car but I was already at 300. I'll probably change my oil before I get to 500. No smell or smoke, performed beautifully but then again, it never went over 4000 sound I don't think I stressed it too much.
elissa

ballistic

As with our opposite views about people who thoughtlessly drive with their foglights on all the time, we'll again have to agree to disagree. Unless an intake manifold pressure/vacuum gauge registers greater than zero downstream of the throttle, an engine is not running on boost. It is running at a vacuum. Whatever the turbocharger may be doing upstream of the throttle may be interesting, but it is irrelevant.

ffsteve100

As a thought experiment, consider a non-turbo engine. With the engine idling, you will see a high reading of vacuum. The pistons are mightily trying to draw air into the manifold, but are prevented by the throttle valve. As the throttle is opened, by either just gunning the engine, or powering up a hill, the vacuum level will drop. Under max load, as when climbing a hill, with the throttle wide open you'll see the lowest level.

But once the throttle is closed again, the vacuum will rise again to its maximum. This is why simple vacuum gauges were marketing as felu economy meters in the 70's. The higher you could keep the vacuum level when driving, the less fuel you were using. My dad installed one on his V8 and was religious in monitoring it (and ensured I did the same).

samiam_68

Ballistic-

I think this entire conversation started when Elissa asked about the high pitched noise while going uphill and whether it was the turbo. I can assure you, without going into further intricacies of forced induction, fluid and gas dynamics, and internal combustion, that the sound Elissa is hearing is indeed the turbo spooling up to its normal operating speed.

ffsteve -

There are a couple of cars that still use the vacuum gauge as an MPG gauge - the BMW 3 series and the Lexus IS300. The only problem is that at idle, while the car is stopped, the gauge shows high MPG while in reality you are getting ZERO MPG. As far as accuracy, I personally prefer the electronic MPG gauges that measure fuel consumption rate vs. vehicle speed.

Elissa -

I seriously doubt that you caused any damage by running the engine at 4000 RPM during break-in. Modern engines are manufactured to very high precision standards, and don't really need a break in period. Some manufacturers still recommend it, while others have completely abandoned it. When I bought my Lexus, the dealer specifically told me that there is no special break in period for the vehicle. The owner's manual also had nothing mentioned about engine break-in.

jfl

His break-in ideas are unorthodox.

Read his article on bearings. Very thought provoking and logical.

Jim

edunnett

I just got done changing spark plugs (not on my subie but the dodge board is anemic) and one of the six is slightly fouled with oil (in your face JD Powers!). I'm concerned that the vehicle might have the beginnings of a leaky piston or o-ring problem and cost upwards of $1000 to repair. BUT if oil in the combustion chamber can lead DIRECTLY to a failed emissions test (in California) then Daimler-Chrysler picks up the tab... SO, I have to decide if and when we should spring for the $100 'smog test'. The pivotal bit of info and the question I need answered: DOES AN OIL-FOULED SPARK PLUG LEAD DIRECTLY TO POOR EMISSIONS OUT THE TAIL PIPE?

This sounds like the beginning of another 3-day debate! ;-) -elissa

ballistic

Have you been monitoring the oil level closely? If indeed you're getting oil into the combustion chamber in any significant quantity, you ought to see that show up as fallling levels on the dipstick, and it might even be visible out the tailpipe if you have an acquaintance follow you in another vehicle.

Pragmatist that I am, I'd probably replace the fouled plug with one having a higher heat range to see whether that might keep the plug clean and operating properly. Oil is cheap; overhauls are expensive.

bhanna261

While sitting in stop-and-go (mostly stop) traffic last Friday, I was shocked to see the gas gauge drop from "full" to "empty" in a matter of seconds. It sat there for about 15 seconds and then slowly rose back to "full". It did it a couple more times but hasn't done it since. Has anyone else experienced this?

It's a '01 Forester S Premium with about 55K miles on it.

samiam_68

You have a loose connector in the circuit - either at the gauge itself or at the float in the tank.

edunnett

ballistic, thanks for input. actually, i change the oil in that vehicle every 3k miles. about 6 months ago, i measured what i drained, and it was only 2 quarts. i fill it with 4 quarts. my forester (2.5 L engine, vs the truck's 3.9L) would usually go through .5-1 quart of oil in the same time period. i haven't found a good source that would tell me if 2 quarts every 3K miles is excessive or normal. so now, seeing oil on the plug, it makes a bit more sense. far as I can tell, no blue or gray smoke out the tail pipe, but i'm sure a few thousand more miles may make a difference. my main concern, living in California, is that it will fail smog and I wont' be able to register the vehicle without spending $1500. so it's the emissions impact I'm really concerned about... curious if there are any California emissions technicians in this forum!
;-) thanks! -elissa

kevin111

Think about the high RPM issue this way. Many of the new cars sold today have been test-driven on dealer's lots. As a result, they have already experienced high-RPM driving during break-in. Yet these same cars still last well past 100K miles on the Odometer.

kevin111

Had a question. I need to smog my WRX for the first time in California, and wondered if the only place to smog the vehicle was at a Subaru dealer?

Since many of the smog places that I remember have a system for just one set of driving wheels (front or back).

Is this false? Can I get the car smogged at most places, or only places set up for AWD vehicles?

ballistic

i haven't found a good source that would tell me if 2 quarts every 3K miles is excessive or normal.

Subaru's "official" answer will be that a full quart of oil consumption in just 1,000 miles is "within normal limits". Most of us owners believe that amount would be excessive.

edunnett

I need to smog my WRX for the first time in California

Are you moving to CA for the first time? Because in CA a new car does not need to be smogged for the first five years, unless maybe if it is being brought in from out of state. Your WRX can't be more than 3 years old, so try checking the requirements again before you spend the $100 on the test.

Most dealers do not do smog tests at all. You can go to any service station that does smogs. If you are in the bay area, there are Speedie's among lots of privately owned places. And you are correct, since the dyno machine costs so darned much, and most cars have only two drive wheels, you are unlikely to find a place capable to doing the dyno test on your AWD vehicle. Never fear. They don't do the dyno test in that case, your car is considered 'exempt' if they don't have the right equipment. Make sure you tell the service station the car has 4 drive wheels. I just had my Forester smogged in order to sell it, so I just went through this.
-elissa

kevin111

I appreciate the info. The car was bought in California, and I live in the L.A. area. I was under the assumption that you need to smog the car every 2 years (brought a used car in from out of state, and this was the case). Did not know that new cars had a 5-year time frame, or that AWD vehicles are exempt if the smog station does not have the equipment for an AWD vehicle.

Again, thank you. One less worry for me.

once_for_all

does the dyno smog check give less leeway than the rpm-no load check?

John

once_for_all

this morning, I had trouble with the 5 MT on my '03 XS. I couldn't get it it 3rd gear at all shifting from 2nd at normal rpm for me (3,000). Then, I couldn't get it into first,third, or fifth. I had to get to my meeting, so I used 2nd and 4th exclusively. After about 10 miles that way, it begin to shift normally again and has been normal since. Anyone run into this problem? There were no grinding gears, no noises whatsoever. I didn't try to shove the lever either. It seemed to work out its own problem.

John

edunnett

so after five years DMV in CA wants you to have the car smogged every one or two years - I can't remember how often. but you have a couple years to figure that out... they will let you know when it's required, for sure :-)

The old test was simply testing the car at idle and at 2500 RPM with the wheels stationary. CA ADDED to that test, the wheels turning test that involves the dyno. If they can't safely test your AWD on the dyno, you get off easy and pay the full fee ($100) for half test (idle and 2500). So the new test with the dyno (for 2WD) is more difficult to pass simply because it has more hoops to jump through.

No matter how you look at it though, it's a pain.
-e

jazz

I can't say that this qualifies as a "problem", and I may be the only one bothered by this, but I thought I'd check here for an innovative solution.

This is the first car I've ever owned with a remote door lock gizmo that acts as a key fob. It's a nice feature, but the hard plastic fob keeps banging against the steering column and the noise drives me nuts! This car is so much quieter than my last one, and I really enjoy that, but it makes the clanging noise really noticeable.

It wouldn't be so bad if the fob had a rubberized surface - at least the banging would be closer to a "thud" sound than a "clang" sound.

Has anyone else been bothered by this, or am I the only nut out here??? Any suggestions, ideas, or recommendations for a nice quiet asylum?

edunnett

it's bothered me too but not enough to scream about it... i'll bet you could buy some sticky rubbarized thing and attache it to the part of the column where it's banging against. heck, even a couple bandaids would likely do the trick!

oneduckstwo

I just purchased an 02 WRX wagon and whoever had it before me had some sort carpet or felt piece glued on under the keys. Seems to work, I don't really have that noise...

oneduckstwo

I've posted this on the WRX wagon board but I'll give it a try here too, sorry if you're on both:

Does anyone have any advice on purchasing an extended service plan? I have a 4 year loan on a used 02 wagon with 34k on it and would like to be covered as much as possible for the loan period at least. Basically, are they worth it?
 
Also, I think I have noticed the clutch "judder" I see mentioned everywhere but it seems to be only on very cold mornings which we don't really have very often in Los Angeles. Has anyone had any problem getting theirs replaced b/c of dealers not wanting to fix it? Thanks.

rob_m

My upgraded speakers and subwoofer takes care of most noises! Rob M.

l8apx

I was bothered by that too. I took a piece of 1" wide adhesive backed velcro, the soft part, and cut it to fit the steering column just under the ignition switch. It's much quieter now. You can usually find the velcro in bulk at your local hardware store.

fibber2

I purchased two new cars in '02, and after about a year, added factory extended warrantees on both (Subi & Honda). It is a tough call, but came down to my overall belief in the merits of insurance policies as a way of warding off bad luck. "Buy it and it will never pay off, don't and disaster will strike!"

But your issues are different. On one hand, you really don't know how your car was treated or cared for, so it might be more trouble prone down the road. On the other hand, you avoided the steep depreciation of buying new, so maybe you can 'bank' your savings and be self-insuring. Yes, a tough call. But whatever you do, stick with the Subaru plan, and steer clear of the aftermarket. Shop the dealers on the internet for best pricing.

Steve

kevin111

Since it is now very warm in the L.A. area, I have no idea how you are going to emulate the "judder". With that being said, most dealers know about this, so they should be very lienent with this issue. Just go to them, mention the problem, and that it is a known issue. If you can find the TSB, I think this will greatly enhance your case of getting it fixed.

ateixeira

That seems like a band-aid solution...

ba-dum-pah

Thank you, don't forget to tip your waiters.

Get a Subaru Gold warranty if you can take advantage of the other perks, like the roadside assistance. That makes it worthwhile.

-juice

oneduckstwo

thanks for the advice. the Gold plan does seem like the way to go...but still I have to wonder what I'm REALLY covered for. as in, let's say my transmission goes in one way or another, is stuff like that really covered...the list seems really long..but alot of it seems borderline nonsense. "trunk light swith" for example. i noticed the "manual clutch assembly" is not covered but things like the "clutch master cylinder and connecting link" are covered. clearly i don't know enough about cars but i get the feeling they're covering stuff that you might not really need to worry about while not covering others. i guess that's good for them! have to make up my mind soon though....

edunnett

Every subaru is covered for 5 years (since the date the ORIGINAL owner first took delivery) or 60,000 miles (whichever comes first) for any powertrain components. That includes most engine parts, water pump, thermostat, transmission, gear assembly, clutch, flywheel (flywheel is to blame for the clutch chatter), axle, etc, etc, etc... not to mention you have an 8 year 80K mile warranty on the catalytic converter and other 'major' emissions components thanks to the EPA. If you find a reputable dealer in your area and keep good history of maintanance, you should have no trouble having your Sub warranty honored. Knowing you have these warranties might make you think twice about spending $1500 on an aftermarket warranty/mechanical breakdown insurance policy which may fight you every step of the way when you try to file a claim. You will find many archived conversations about this topic in one of the boards here if you want more opinions. But the usual thing I hear is that these "warranties" are nearly $100 pure profit. I'm very sceptical of them and prefer a reliable car anyday over a warranty. -elissa

ateixeira

The dealer makes a cut on the sale of those, and that is pure profit, but Subaru actually makes a small loss on the sale of the warranties. Keep in mind the wholesale cost is more like $700-1000, not $1400.

For that $800 or so, they pay for the roadside assistance, which costs $71 per year otherwise (that's what it cost my dad to renew his).

Then factor in the resale value. If you're buying a 6 year old Subie with 80k miles, would the remaining 1 year or 20k miles put you at ease? Heck yes! That adds value even 6 years later.

Plus you're buying peice of mind.

I don't think they are for everyone. If you have a great mechanic or can fix things yourself, have a spare car, have AAA already, etc., then there's no need for it.

-juice

oneduckstwo

thanks for the advice. the Gold plan does seem like the way to go...but still I have to wonder what I'm REALLY covered for. as in, let's say my transmission goes in one way or another, is stuff like that really covered...the list seems really long..but alot of it seems borderline nonsense. "trunk light swith" for example. i noticed the "manual clutch assembly" is not covered but things like the "clutch master cylinder and connecting link" are covered. clearly i don't know enough about cars but i get the feeling they're covering stuff that you might not really need to worry about while not covering others. i guess that's good for them! have to make up my mind soon though....

ateixeira

Tranny, yes.

Generally they will exclude wear-and-tear stuff, like the clutch, brake rotors and pads, tires, etc.

They'll cover the water pump, fuel pump, fuel injectors, ECU, brake master cylinder, wheel bearings, steering pumps, big ticket items like that that would cost you an arm and a leg.

If you get a Subaru Gold stick with us, we have an SoA rep browsing these boards and 800-SUBARU3 to track any issues you might have.

-juice

vetmats

I have an '03 Outback with 11K miles. Over the last few months, I've notice that when I apply the brake at highway speeds, the car shudders somewhat, like I'm going over a bumpy road. The shudder is apparent from about 45 mph and up, with the shudder getting worse the faster I am driving.

I am going to have the car in to the dealer for an oil change and tire rotation on Thursday. I am also going to have the dealer balance the tires, in case that is causing the problem.

Any other ideas what might be causing this?

thanks,
vetmats

edunnett

Ask them to look at the brakes - could be they need to be 'resurfaced' or smoothed out. Check if warranty covers that. Likely they will have to send your brakes out to a machine shop for the work if that's indeed your problem. I live on the coast of CA and my husband's 2 year old truck just had that work done. I think the coast has an effect on the integrity of the disks/drums. -elissa

lfdal

juice - what do you think they mean by "wear and tear" in the statement below? I just cut and pasted this from the mySubaru.com website under my extended warranty info. I think I'll pull out the hard copy contract when I get a chance....

The Gold Plus Plans have been designed to take your Added Security coverage to the next level. Like the Classic Plans, the Gold Plus Plans feature important benefits like:
Covers wear and tear
Protects your Subaru investment
Inflation hedge on future repair costs
$150 car rental allowance
Transferable
Cancelable
Includes parts and labor
Nationwide coverage
Unlimited claims
Zero deductible option available

Larry

once_for_all

(nice name BTW), if the west coast has an affect on brake wear, its probably because of all the tailgaters on the freeways.

John