Periodic Maintenance

fleetwoodsimca

Risking sounding corny, I gotta say that this Edmunds experience thing is really enriching. I realize now that my not-so-good experience with Albany pads was not par for the course. They really appealed to me when I bought them, and I'd now consider trying them again, since you guys have had great luck and service with minimal rotor wear. What more could you ask for? Mine were made in Louisiana, as I recall, and I do refer to Albany pads. ABS is not a problem at all when changing pads and shoes, so long as you are not getting into fully changing out the brake fluid. I too, go for the reservoir fluid, feeling confident that there is some degree of circulation going on. Darkened fluid in the chamber is best replaced, no matter what degree of circulation occurs. Clean is better than dirty! Help from a friend on those first few jobs, and the use of Haynes and Chilton (and other) manuals is the way to go.

alcan

A couple of points to remember: Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards #105 and 135 specify the minimum performance level of OEM brake pads but there are currently NO standards for aftermarket pads. What you get is what you get. As for darkened brake fluid, any brake hydraulic system that's 3 or more years old has at least 4-5% water contamination and should be flushed:

http://www.batauto.com/articles/brkfld.shtml

fleetwoodsimca

Isn't it ironic that in recent years, as innovations such as ABS have become nearly standard issue, brake pad and shoe materials have become fast wear-out items. Some of us have had the misfortune to learn the hard way that the "old days" of braking materials lasting almost forever are gone. And many of us have discovered that the aftermarket provides much longer lasting shoes and pads than the factories are often willing to provide as original OEM. Yet, as pointed out by ALCAN, the originals must be certified, while the aftermarket need not bother. I don't think this implies that "bad brakes last longer"!

cutehumor

hey I didn't know that autozone has a lifetime replacement of brake pads. did I read that right? I installed albany pads in the front of my car almost two years ago, I have put about 14k miles on my car. no complaints so far. I don't have the receipt anymore though. so if I go back and return the old brake pads four years from now, I can get free brake pads? btw, I never replaced the rotor at all since I owned the car starting at 63k..car has 107k miles currently

bburton1

Just a suggestion-when replacing pads yourself, open the valve on the back of the caliper-takes a 8 or 9 mm wrench-when you start to squeeze the piston back into the body and let the brake fluid squirt out. This gets rid of the fluid that has been very hot in the caliper. When you are finished with that, take a turkey baster and suck out all the brake fluid in the bf thingy and replace it with the appropriate type of bf.

Have used aftermarket pads on several different hondas including whatever autozone sells and beck arnley and with over 500K-nada problem with rotors. Only time I have ever had rotor problems with a honda is when some maniac/mechanic uses an air driven impact wrench even with torque sticks. I always take my overpriced snap on torque wrench and make them use that now-replacing rotors is a PITA on the older honda's.

Also if your front end does not shimmy when braking, never never let the people replacing your brake pads "true up" your rotors. All they are doing is making your wallet lighter while reducing the life of your rotors. Got over 200K on one honda with original rotors-guy I sold it to now has almost 300K on it and still same rotors. Pad life is totally dependent upon driving style-first set on my current accord lasted 112K.

mike1qaz

That is correct. If you don't have the receipt, they can pull you up on computer. Even though I had my receipt, they still verified my purchase on their computer. Name and vehicle and product are all there.

tboner

Because you might move and go to a different store. I know my Advance Auto Parts store a block from my home didn't have a record of the waterpump I bought at the store near my office. However, the receipt got me the replacement waterpump, free of charge.

So not all chains are completely networked between the stores yet.

TB

nippononly

would anyone who actually wanted to stay in business warrant FOR LIFE a part which is designed to wear out?

mike1qaz

I can only assume it is a loss leader to get you into their store. I've only ever gotten brake pads from them, but I think there warranty on other parts are good also.

Has anyone out there ever gotten other parts; alternators, AC compressor, from Autozone.

Also, the $16 dollars you pay for the original set of pads must have a huge profit margin.

zueslewis

With this in mind, and knowing the pads are only covered for the original purchaser (vehicle owner), they're really not at much risk at all -

Sounds great - "lifetime warranty for as long as you own your car" - yeah, until you trade it!

mike1qaz

who keep their vehicles for 200K or more, deals like this are worth looking into if you do your own work.

zueslewis

but the Pep Boys and Autozone folks know that people who keep their cars that long are rare. 98% of people trade often, some as often as 24 months. It's really designed to be a selling tool when you're having work done on your car at Pep Boys or Autozone - it's a hands-off scenario for an owner who doesn't like hassling with their brakes and paying bills for repairs down the road.

Of course, when you're in for your "free" front pads, they get you for rotors, calipers, rear wheel cylinders, rear shoes, and new drums, stating they can't complete your work without ensuring the car's total safety. $600 later, you DO get your free pads.

Do it yourselfers don't have to worry about this aspect, but the majority of people buying into the lifetime brake pad notion aren't do it yourselfers.

mike1qaz

You've got that right about the up-sell once they've got you in their shop. That's why we dads/moms must continue to educate our sons/daughters about what is necessary for proper maintenance and safe operation of their vehicles.

Even if you don't DIY, you'll know what to look for and understand that when having your vehicle serviced by a professional there is always an underlying profit motive at play.

Now some, who want a hands off appoach, are willing to pay the piper. To each his own.

fleetwoodsimca

I guess I have purchased more pads,shoes, rotors, and such from Champion Auto Parts than any other chain, but they are now defunct here, in the Rocky Mountain Empire. I used to get Bendix and/or Raybestos from them. I simply do not recall, but I suspect those classic American brands have that same lifetime warranty for the duration of your ownership of the vehicle, don't they?

gotribe

Curious if others have had pricing issues with Tire Kingdom. Here in Cleveland, they recently took over the stores of what had been a very good, service oriented, family run company called Mueller Tire. Sadly, the honesty and integrity of Mueller Tire has been lost to the big corporation I guess. Yesterday, I got fleeced for a 79.95 coolant flush (they said 69.95 when I brought it in) and $24 for an oil change. The oil change price was fine but they didnt top off fluids, lube hinges etc etc. Plus, I observed a fair amount of "high pressure" as several customers were strongly encouraged to get brake work etc done right then. Others seen these problems with Tire Kingdom in other parts of the country?

gambiaman

I have changed a lot of pads and even some shoes but have not changed any w/ABS yet. Do I understand correctly that the procedure is exactly the same? I totally agree with not resurfacing unless really needed. I am a while away from pad replacement but have been wondering about the ABS thing for a while. Also rear pads. No difference changing vs. front pads?
Thanks

cutehumor

I bought one of autozone's duralast alternator with a limited lifetime warranty. not sure how long the warranty is. I bought it about two months ago. so far so good. if it ever fails, I'll be sure to inquire about a free replacement.

fleetwoodsimca

I think the best way for you to get where you want to go on this situation is to buy a manual for the vehicle on which you intend to do the brake work. Haynes and/or Chilton can save you grief of untold measure.(:o]

acelink

Edmunds says in its how-to to try your palm first.
Is the surface of piston sensitive to crack or pressure? I was thinking about using - screw driver as a leverage to push it back. Also mentioned by Edmunds is the use of grease to the back of brake pads to silence possible squeaking sounds while braking. Have you guys heard of WURTH ABS brake noise eliminator from Germany? I wonder whether this thing also functions as the grease.

8u6hfd

Many cars can use a C-clamp, others require a tool (actual or makeshift) to screw in the pistons.

mike1qaz

This is the reason you need an advisor the first time you attempt to do your brakes. The brake quiet is not a grease, it is a compound that sets up a barrier between the back of the pads and the caliper housing/piston to lessen rubbing and vibration. To do the job right you also need to use hi-temp grease in the channels that the pads ride in. None of these should be present on the rotors when you are finishing the job.

Do yourself a hugh favor and get some help the first time you attempt to repair your brakes.

fleetwoodsimca

There is a brake specialty "C" clamp made for the job, and they are very nice to use. Try the Eastwood site, and look up brake tools.

http://eastwoodcompany.com

I bought a special measuring caliper from them, and I must say they are so ethical and customer oriented that it is breathtaking-- that's a little dramatic, but essentially true!

rfruth

I plan on taking my 2000 5 speed Civic with 29.9K on the clock (no problems yet knock on wood) in to have the 30K service done (check/adjust valve

clearance, new plugs, all fluids changed etc..) for a mere $ 330.00 parts n labor (have heard dealers are a rip-off but doing it anyway) will check fluid levels when I get home & want the old plugs back to look for normal wear (currently check the MPG once a month & its about 40 MPG driven easy mix of city & highway) and will continue to check so can 'tell' if things

have changed but is there anything in particular you'd ask for or about ? TIA

--

                    Rob Fruth - Houston, Tx

                 http://web2.airmail.net/rfruth

1981 Raleigh for errands & fun ____ __o

1997 Trek 2300 for real fun ! ____ _ \ | _)

2000 Civic hatchback (_)/ (_)

armtdm

why are you changing the plugs at 30,000 miles. I can almost guarantee that your owner's manual say 60,000 minimum. this is your dealers service schdule that is being pushed in order for him to make a boat payment. Maybe I am incorrect but I doubt that on a 2000 vehicle a 30,000 mile plug change is in the service manual. Most of the 30,000 mile services are check and inspect and are not worth the money unless you are totally non mechanical and cannot check your own fluids and do visual observations.

zueslewis

Not the recommended, but the required, through Honda manuals. Unless you're autocrossing or drag racing your Civic, you haven't caused enough corruption to require a valve adjustment.

Do me a favor - I'm from Brazoria County (Lake Jackson). Please have a Pappa's BBQ brisket sandwich for me!

zueslewis

if you're due, and that's it - the 30K is just a money maker and 2 hours worth of labor for something you can either do yourself or have the guy at Wal-Mart do - a simple look over - isn't worth the bucks.

I was a service manager and was usually shocked when someone actually volunteered their car for a 30K or 60K.

rayt2

Zueslewis is right, this is a service schedule recommended by the DEALERSHIP not Honda, look in your factory issued owners manual for the intervals, DO NOT go by the dealer recommendation it is just a money maker for them. Plugs should go a minimum of 50k before maybe needing a change.

Ray T.

nippononly

you probably need fresh coolant, possibly fresh transmission fluid if it is an auto, and if you do not have the facilities to dispose of those properly yourself, you SHOULD have a shop do those two items.

rfruth

Thanks for all the info about the 30 K service on my 2000 Civic, the owners manual calls for replacing the spark plugs @ 24 months or 30 thousand miles which ever comes first (using inexpensive OEM plugs must keep the cost down)

so i'm only a year late on that but the coolant brake fluid valves etc is at 30K according to the manual so i'm right on time (grin) Guess Honda

recommends this service to help their dealers make money ? This could all be done by a shade tree mechanic (me) assuming a modest investment in tools and hopefully my driveway & hair would stay clean.

                    Rob Fruth - Houston, Tx

                 http://web2.airmail.net/rfruth

zueslewis

unless you have some experience at it -you could easily do everything else in your driveway.

rfruth

Adjusted valves on a few vehicles before, did a Nissan 4 banger not too long ago, book said do it while warmed up and with engine running so I did, boy was that fun ... says check um cold for the Civic, anyway valves & power steering fluid (no drain plug that I see) would be tough, someone said mention the PCV valve to the dealership, is their anything in the distributor that can be done ? Rob in Houston

haspelbein

...as I have a friend whose Integra got a lousy valve adjustment from her mechanic, which triggered the 'check engine light' and caused poor engine performance. Several hundred dollars worth of diagnostics and a sermon at the dealership later, she got it fixed.

The rest may be messy, but should be fairly straightforward.

zueslewis

Also, you can use a "sucker" - I have a huge metal syringe that pulls fluid out of things like power steering pumps, differentials, etc. That way, if you want, you can suck out the old power steering fluid and brake fluid, if you want to do that.

fleetwoodsimca

My large Mityvac unit will draw up 6 liters in one service operation, before requiring emptying. It's a great unit that I bought through J.C. Whitney about a year or so ago.

armtdm

Well, I am amazed that a 2000 Civic has a 30,000 mile recommended plug change. Must be the severe schedule and using non platinum plugs. Everything I have seen since 97 or so has had 60,000 miles platinum plugs from the factory.

8u6hfd

If I'm not mistaken, Honda switched over to the extended life coolant a few years ago, so a coolant change can be done at 100,000 miles (no it's no DexCool either).

Pumps: I use the pump attachment to the drill for the same thing.

fleetwoodsimca

armtdm: I agree with your analysis. At 30K I took the advice in my owner's manual for my 1998 Pathfinder (that I bought new in late 1998), and pulled a plug to inspect it. To my surprise it was not the plug called for! A call to my friend at NAPA, and he contacted Nissan service people who passed along the answer to me. It seems that late 1998 Pathfinders received 1999 spec'd engines, which included an update from 30K to 60K plugs. I'm still using those funny looking original NGKs.

inkie

I would like to rotate the tires on my 2002 CRV and want to include the spare. Had donut spare tires for years so I am not familiar with the present 5 wheel rotation on normal radials. Years ago from what I remember I put the spare on the right rear and made the front left my spare. Does this sound right? Or do you experts know Honda's recommendations or any other 5 wheel procedure. Thanks

nippononly

and stick to it for rotation. That is, right rear to right front, right front becomes spare, and spare becomes right rear. Or you could do the left side.

Or you could do what I would really do, and leave the spare stashed under its hood, and just keep it pumped up.

tboner

has the pattern of rotation. If not, check with tirerack.com or the tire maker.

I Would do a 5 tire rotation, at least until you wear out this set of tires. I would then do a four tire rotation on the next set, using the best of these as the spare. Then refreshing your spare everytime you get a new set of tires.

The good thing about five full sized wheels is if you ruin a tire, you can replace an entire axle of tires and simply rotate the good one that was on that axle to the spare position.

FWIW,

TB

fleetwoodsimca

In many applications, car makers and especially tire makers are advising against true five-wheel rotations, due to the fact that in order to really integrate the spare into the pattern requires "X"ing the tires, with one coming off the road and going into the trunk. Lots of recent issue (most? all?) steel belted and other RADIAL tires do not fair well when treated this way. When you "X" the tires, you end up with tires that are now spinning in reverse direction relative to the motion of the car. Radials tend to not run smoothly at highway speeds when rolling "backwards" by virtue of being on the other side of the car. that is, they take on directional characteristics that give a poor quality of service when reversed.

zueslewis

backwards, like fleetwood said.

I recommend against it.

The fear of the donut is a real joke, in my opinion. Many donut spares have higher load ratings than many normal passenger car tires, you're only going to run on it until you get the tire repaired or replaced, and the manufacturers post all those warnings because people would be running around on four of these things simply because you can get them at junkyards for $5 each!

In 1986, I had to run 1,100 miles on a donut on the front of my Mustang, in the winter, through Utah, Colorado and part of Kansas. I was is in the Air Force and had a flat (trashed it) on one of my TRX metric tires. Try finding one of those over a weekend in Utah, Colorado and Kansas! On Monday, I bought a pair at a K-mart and pressed on - the donut ran at speeds around 60-70 for two days.

This fear is most common among old men who drive Ford Crown Victorias.

sgrd0q

quote:
Radial tires develop a "memory" and don't like being run backwards

I thought even 4 tire rotations require tires that used to go in one direction to now go in the other. It happens every time you take a tire from one side and put in on the other side of the car.

zueslewis

as stated in every tire course I went to from Michelin, BFG, Goodyear, Firestone, etc.

Bias ply tires engrained years (since the 30s) of training in motorists and gave them the five-cross rotation system. Those old tires didn't develop wear patterns that react poorly when turned in the opposite direction. The buying public really only fully switched to radials since 1980 or so. Our 1978 Fairmont came standard with bias plys, but Dad paid the $22 to upgrade to radials.

dfong87

i agree. the donuts actually probably can last several miles as long as one keeps speeds below 70 mph.

As an odd aside, i recall my dad's 1979 Audi 5000S (thankfully, he never had the transmission problem!): it came not only with a full spare, but a full spare of the same tire and alloy wheel as the rest of the car. it may sound excessive, but when my mom managed to scratch one of the wheels parallel parking, he was able to swap the wheel with the spare and have "perfect car" again.

sgrd0q

Thank you zueslewis. I somehow remember reading in my manual a pattern that resulted in left to right rotation. Will double check. I wonder if my dealer knows not to switch left to right when rotating. Also, I wonder how do they remember which wheel goes where - I saw them list time take all four wheels off, then balance them, and then mount them - it looked like they randomly put them back on!

zueslewis

usually, technicians rotate front to back like they're supposed to and would take one wheel set at a time to the balance machine, or mark them, then load them on a dolly.

I don't know of a shop that rotates in a crossing pattern.

sgrd0q

zueslewis - would you then not care if the tires are directional when shopping for tires? Since you'll always go front to back, and never left to right?

I am considering the Michelin Sport A/S tires that are directional, and the only thing that currently makes me hesitate whether to get them is the fact that they are directional. So I guess this is not a concern?

aming

very nice tires.just a little expensive. Enough to put a big hole in anyones pockets...

zueslewis

performance vehicles and I race autocross with my street tires. There are very few performance tires that aren't directional (resembling the old Goodyear gatorback) or uni-directional (like the Yokohama AVS Intermediate - what I run - or the Pirelli P-Zero).

Of course, with directional tires, the only way to rotate is front to rear.

Michelin makes great tires, but even with their higher cost, you don't always get what you pay for and they may not be the best choice for your car. What do you drive and what size tires do you have? Do you play in the canyon or the parking lot? Do you drive in a docile manner, or do you push your car?

I'll be glad to make a suggestion if you like.