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BMW 5-Series Wagon 2004 Redesign



  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Fact: people will buy a phenomenal car despite what it might look like.

    That's the only fact that matters.

  • jakumabajakumaba Posts: 9
    I asked a similar question about a month ago on the ED board. I've also checked with some dealers. The concensus seems to be that the new model is projected to come to the USA in October or thereabouts, maybe a bit later. As far as manufacture, the factory shuts down in August as a matter of course (vacation for Germans). The dealers say that this August shut-down will be also a time for modification to assembly process, etc., for the new model, to start production in September. '03 availability in USA after that date would probably depend on existing inventory, etc. You get the picture. BTW, Shipo's response on last '03 for ED was:

    "My guess would be August or September. Munich usually trys to produce ED orders several weeks before the scheduled ED pickup."
  • idletaskidletask Posts: 171
    Here is an article about BMW's Active Steering.

    And for the nitpicky out there, it will be an option AND it can be deactivated.
  • riezriez Posts: 2,361
    Roundel (BMWCCA) and Bimmer magazines have both had recent informative articles on active steering.
  • drwho6drwho6 Posts: 1
    I prefer the 2003 5-series over the new redesign. I tend to like the subtle elegance typical of BMW's older designs. I do not like the sharkish looking headlights and I think the car looks a little bulky.

    All gripes aside, I am sure the new 5-series will be a peformer.

    I have never owned a BMW, but am planning on getting one in July. I had planned on buying a 530i, but I do not know if I will be able to find a 2003 w/ the package I want so soon before the new model comes out. If that turns out to be the case I may end up getting a 330i since the 2004 looks pretty much the same as the 2003.
  • 5speed55speed5 Posts: 31
    Toronto_guy "I don't know the price of the A6 in the US, but in Canada it is $20,000 less the 530 and is not considered in the same class."

    First, you must compare apples to apples. A US 530i Premium/Sport/Manual/No Nav stickered at $47,500. The equivalent A6 for comparison is a 2.7T Premium/Sport/Auto/w/Nav for same sticker price. Typically the Audi's are between 2 and 3 thousand dollars less than the same optioned BMW here.

    As far as the class goes...German manufacture, mid size Luxury sedan, everything across the board pretty equal, except the Audi has more room in the rear.

    And the comment about the A6 being "a box on wheels"..the A6 is more 'rounded' than the 5 series. Every car rag that I have seen a comparo between the two on always gave the number one spot for exterior styling to the Audi.
  • I wish that people who respond to my comments would read them more dilligently.

    I expressed that I did not know what the price of an A6 in the US. In Canada, they are $50k whereas a 530 is $70k. That is a signifigant difference.

    Further, in Canada the Audi is thought of a lesser manufacturer then BMW and Mercedes. One of the wealthy cities in the world - Toronto - boasts tons of BMW's and Mercedes and very few Audis. In fact, in the Greater Toronto Area there are only 2 Audi dealerships and around 15 Mercedes and 15 BMW dealerships.

    I was not comparing the boxiness to the old style 5 series. The A6 is already tired looking, and to compare to the 2004 5 series is unimaginable.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    How can people see forward with their noses stuck up so high? LOL

  • 5speed55speed5 Posts: 31
    First, I read, and re-read your comments three times 'diligently'. You stated you did not know US prices, and for comparison, I provided them.

    Now, again you stated " In Canada, they (Audi A6) are $50k whereas a 530 is $70k. That is a significant difference." I refused to believe that the same equipped cars can have a $20,000 difference between them, no matter what the country, so I went for the 'facts'.

    On each respective manufacturers Canada web site, I configured the same car with Auto/Premium/Sport/Nav/High End Stereo. Well guess what? They are NOT $20,000 apart. Just like in the US, there was only a $2,200 difference. The A6 was $70,705 and the BMW was $72,990 Before you post a statement like that, you should get the facts right.

    You also stated "Further, in Canada the Audi is thought of a lesser manufacturer then BMW and Mercedes." Lesser manufacturer??? what the heck is that?? again..opinion & not fact.

    The only thing I will agree with you is about the A6 design being tired. The A6 was last re designed in '98, a year after the 5 series ('97). The A6 will have it's redesign for '05. For cues as to how it will look, the '04 A8 (Audi's flagship that competes with the 7 series) was just re designed, and looks damn good!(Disclaimer-this is my opinion only, and not a fact)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Audi is a top-tier make and probably the most emulated of all brands in terms of design. Specifically, the TT's interior created no less than a revolution in interior design.

    I attended the BMW Ultimate Driving event and it's intesting to see how much influence Audi has had over BMW design (a polite way to say BMW copied Audi).

    In fact it's hard to find even one volume manufacturer that has not imitated Audi. Even funnier was attending the NY Auto Show and noticing how cars like the Galant have stopped imitating BMW.

  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,148
    In fact it's hard to find even one volume manufacturer that has not imitated Audi.

    Hmmm, well I suppose that is one way of looking at things. While I find Audi interiors to be quite pleasing, I cannot say that I find them any more pleasing than the interior of either of my last two BMWs (3-Series and 5-Series), both of which were designed before the two current competitive Audis. That said, there is not a single Audi body style that I would want in my garage. While I REALLY dislike the new E60 5-Series, I would much rather have it (looks wise) than any of the current offerings from Audi. Just my opinion.

    Best Regards,
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    What is it they say, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery? Even Mercedes has shiny metal surfaces in some interiors now.

    For interiors, Audi is the industry benchmark, there simply is no contest. Exteriors are debatable, but Chris Bangle hasn't done much for BMW's case.

  • idletaskidletask Posts: 171
    I really don't see any Audi influence in current BMW products. Ateirexa, can you give an example?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    If anyone thinks a higher price is an advantage, well, a fool and his money will soon part.

    I'm disappointed - I thought BMW guys bought their cars because they were sporty, not as "jewelry" they just wore, or to compensate for some other shortcomings.

  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    idletask: first, the obvious, there are more AWD models than ever, 325xi sedan and wagon, 330xi sedan.

    Then take a peek at the Z4 interior. I see a lot of TT influence in the shiny metal surfaces. Even the Z8 Alpina roadster seems to have fallen into the trend of shiny metal surfaces.

    I'm gathering this just from a teaser brochure they handed out at the NY Auto Show, I'm sure there are other models with cues that copy the TT.

    The TT may not have been the first, but it certainly was the car that popularized that look, something BMW (and everybody else) has copied.

  • bmwdriver02bmwdriver02 Posts: 46
    Hi all, new to Edmunds. I am VERY disappointed with the design of the 2004 5 Series. I myself have a 2002 BMW 530i and looks like I will not be trading into the new model. True I have to see the car myself but the front end is not something I would like.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Pamper it for a few years and I'll pay top dollar for it used. ;-)

  • karmikankarmikan Posts: 116
    I don't mean to flame you toronto_guy but I have seldom read more junk than in your 3 previous posts (and yes, I did read them diligently).

    I recently completed a lengthy (several months) selection process for a new car. I wanted a sedan and test drove Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, Saab, Volvo, Infiniti and Acura. I knew that the 530i was my car 5 mins into the test drive and bought the car on its merits. But according to your argument, if the Acura had been the best car FOR ME, I would have been buying it solely because I couldn't afford a BMW. The logic escapes me.

    Shipo said he saw an E60 in France but you essentially dismissed his report because they were not in production and you were in the UK and France but didn't see one. Shipo obviously saw a test mule, why doubt him?

    Audi is viewed in Canada as a lesser manufacturer to BMW or Mercedes - huh? I obviously can't speak for everyone in Canada (nor can you I would guess) but the car people I know would say that they are very equivalent brands with different flavours. Look at any comparison tests (web or otherwise) and you will see the A4 listed as an alternative to the 3 series, the A6 an alternative to the 5 series etc.

    As for a $20K price difference between Audi & BMW. There is very little difference in similarly equipped A6's and 5 series, although with the permutations in available option packages, finding equivalent options can get a bit tricky.

    Finally, your counts of Audi, BMW and Mercedes dealerships in the Greater Toronto Area. Your counts and the actual counts in parentheses:
    Audi 2 (actually 7), BMW 15 (actually 7), Mercedes 15 (actually 8).

    This is an informative board with lots of excellent contributors. Dishing up misinformation does no-one any good and is just plain irritating.
  • idletaskidletask Posts: 171
    It's a phenomenon on its own, that's for sure... Which manufacturer hasn't been influenced :)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    7 to 7 in terms of dealers, eh? Hilarious. :o)

  • enkkenenkken Posts: 10
    I just read about Volvo S60R, which on paper should compete well against 530i or even 540i. With its 300 ponies, S60R is supposed to have enough power and handling prowess to compete against the 5-series and MB E-series. It would be intersting if Edmund or another automobile magazine/website compares S60R, new 530i (or 545i), and MB E500.
  • toronto_guytoronto_guy Posts: 22
    Audi Dealerships in GTA:
    1) Agincourt Autohaus 2)Queensway Volkswagen
    (both are acutally VW dealerships that sell Audi's as an after thought) 3)Downtown Fine Cars - Again Primarily a Porsche Dealership - I know this because I bought a Porsche there many moons ago didn't even see Audi's there when I bought.

    I welcome Karmikan to tell me 4 other Audi dealership in Toronto....hmmm how did he come up with 7??? May I point out that there is not one dedicated Audi dealership in Ontario. Why....because they can't sell enough of them alone to be profitable.

    As far as the 20k difference, price them out on I can get an Audi A6 fairly loaded for about $55k. The 530's start absoultely bare for $65k. Not to mention BMW will barely move on their price, when I looked at the A6 dealer dropped the price 4k before I even test drove it.

    As far as Shipo, when I put down the deposit on my 2004 5 series, the dealer rep laughed and said he was full of sh-t (his words not mine). Further if Shippo did see a test mule, it would of been dressed down....and if I remember correctly Shippo dismissed the 5 series looks. How do you judge a car based on a dressed down mule?

    The bottom line is that the 2004 5 series will outsell the # for this years 2003 5 series, Audi A6, or any car in its class next year. That's a given. If you disagree you are showing your ignorance with regards to the various sales volumes. Quite simply, if the car is a ugly as you one will buy it. I know who will be right. My dealership alone has 35 preorders of the 2004 5 series. Its a small dealer, and the rep said that is more then the current 5 series has sold so far since September at their dealership.

    So here's your homework Karm baby:
    1) give me the other 4 Audi dealerships you said there were in Toronto
    2) Price up a 2003 530 on caproint. Then do the same on the A6 (non Avanti), make sure they have the same features and give me specific pricing
    3) Go to Paris see how many mules (other then the French themselves) that you see!

    Good Luck!
  • toronto_guytoronto_guy Posts: 22
    Don't ever compare a Volvo to a 5 series Enkeen. You are forgetting one thing....a Volvo is a.....VOLVO!

    What are we going to start comparing the Hyundai to the 5 next.........

  • toronto_guytoronto_guy Posts: 22
    Hmm...Karm is carpoint pricing on the A6 quoted! I don't know how a premium stereo moves it from $51k to $75K. Obivoulsy you need need some tutoring in math! Price quotes directly copied from CARPOINT.CA:

    "Audi A6 3.0 CVT
    The A6 3.0 model adds a 220-horsepower 3.0-litre V6 and Audi's innovative Multitronic continuously variable transmission (CVT).
    Base Retail (MSRP) $51,740"

    "BMW 5-Series 530i
    The 530i adds leather seats, automatic climate control, a Multi Information Display (MID), Dynamic Stability Control, Dynamic Brake Control, Vavona wood trim and a 225-horsepower 3.0-litre inline 6.
    Base Retail (MSRP) $63,100"
    You'll notice there is a $12k difference just on the base price. Not to mention the Audi comes base more loaded, Audi is alot more flexible on lowering price, BMW's PDI and freight is double
    that of Audi. Not to mention 15% sales tax on top of that.

    Get your facts Karm baby...or don't waste my time.

    Remember my motto "Audi's are for Wusses!"
  • toronto_guytoronto_guy Posts: 22
    I noticed that alot of you were concerned about IDrive on the new 5. I have been told by my dealership that it will be most likely an option on the 2004.

    I am going to chance it.
  • toronto_guytoronto_guy Posts: 22

    Explain to me this...if you love Audi so much...and they are the innovators...why are you in the BMW chat room.

    I know I wouldn't be caught dead in an Audi chat room...(if there are any!)

    Remember my saying "Audi's are for Wusses!"
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,148
    Hmmmm, with your kind of rhetoric, shouldn't you be over in the G35 vs. 3-Series discussion, arguing why the G35 is the greatest sedan on the planet? I say this because one of the things that I have most enjoyed about the 3-Series and 5-Series discussions over the years is the general tone of civility, and my friend, it seems that you have crossed a boundary that shouldn’t have been crossed.

    Regarding my sighting of what I assume to be a “Test Mule” in Paris. Is it so hard to believe that BMW has taken the wraps off the Mules this close to the actual launch of the car? After all, even BMW is now releasing and publishing "Official" photos of the car on the web and in print. The fact is, if they were still fielding “Taped” cars at this point, they would be breaking with not only their own tradition, but with the tradition of car manufacturers world wide. The fact is, cast as many aspersions as you would like, I know what I saw, and I saw an un-taped/undisguised E60. Like it or don’t.

    Best Regards,
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Did I say I love Audis so much? I just said they are leaders in design.

    This topic is the redesign of the 5, not "Snooty owners exclusive club".

    Maybe you are bitter that Autoweek, on of the most prestigious car magazines in the world, agrees with me 100%. The new 5 looks like Dame Edna! LOL

  • karmikankarmikan Posts: 116
    Wow, something must have pushed your button, 5 posts in less than an hour!

    Re the number of dealerships. I think I know what's happened, you don't know the difference between the Greater Toronto Area and Metro Toronto so let me explain. The GTA consists of Metro Toronto plus several surrounding areas including Oakville, Brampton, Mississauga, Whitby, Ajax, Newmarket and several others. You will find the "missing" dealerships here.

    In your first post on the subject you did mention the GTA and I assumed that was what you meant. If you really meant Metro Toronto then yes, there are 3 Audi dealerships but only 2 BMW dealerships.

    So where did your original 15 BMW dealerships come from? Well, there are 16 BMW dealerships (and 16 Audi) in Ontario so you were pretty close, your geography was just wildly out .

    So what was the point of your original post? Maybe it was that there are a few Audi dealerships in a very small geographic area and many BMW dealerships in a huge geographic area. If that was the case I would have thought that was self-evident and probably not worth submitting. There again, it could be that you haven't a clue and you're just wasting everyone's time.

    As for the relative costs of the 5 Series and A6. I went through the numbers/options very carefully when I was shopping, they are as I said before, very close. If you can't accept that, there's not much else to say.

    Shipo showed a lot of restraint in his response to you. I would echo his sentiments:

    Be civil and have a point of some description or don't post. Pretty simple don't you think?
  • toronto_guytoronto_guy Posts: 22
    Just for the record I did not state that you were full of sh-t, my dealer did.
This discussion has been closed.