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BMW 5-Series Wagon 2004 Redesign



  • toronto_guytoronto_guy Posts: 22
    Karm baby writes:
    "This is an informative board with lots of excellent contributors. Dishing up misinformation does no-one any good and is just plain irritating."

    Lets look at misinformation:
    David shows proof of Carpoint pricing of the two models

    Karms response: "I went through the numbers/options very carefully when I was shopping, they are as I said before, very close"

    David points out there is only 3 dealerships in GTA, asks KARM to give other 4 SPECIFICALLY.

    Also, there are no such things as "Audi dealerships" in Canada. There are Porsche dealerships, and Volkswagon dealerships that sell Audi's as an afterthought. Not one dealership sells Audi's exclusively.

    Karm response: "The GTA consists of Metro Toronto plus several surrounding areas including Oakville, Brampton, Mississauga, Whitby, Ajax, Newmarket and several others. You will find the "missing" dealerships here"

    Karm points outs: GTA consists of..Oakville

    David: falls out of chair laughing.

    Karm get with the program...need proof buddy...put up or shut up.
  • ryokenryoken Posts: 291
    "You are forgetting one thing....a Volvo is a.....VOLVO!"

    Darn straight it's a Volvo. Very nice cars. The new R series is going to have some punch, too. Not quite M3 performance, but not too terribly far behind.. for the price of a nicely equipped 330. And with an integrated child seat to boot.

    And if Hyundai comes out with a 300hp AWD active suspension luxury sport sedan, then yes, I'd compare it to the 5-series, and the 3-series, and the Volvo, and the G35, and the....
  • toronto_guytoronto_guy Posts: 22
    Audi sold 2498 vehicles in Canada in 2003
    BMW sold 4471 vehicles in Canada from Jan to April alone.

    Which begs the question Karmy, if Audi and BMW have generally the same priced vehicles, and the Audis are such a great car and they are so poplular in Canada....

    Why is BMW outselling them about 6 to 1!

    Not to mention that BMW projects sales of the new 5 series well sell double the vehicles of the existing 5.

    So Karmala...I was wondering how you might explain this factually?

    *Jeopardy theme playing in the background*
  • toronto_guytoronto_guy Posts: 22
    I was a little harsh on you last time buddy!

    However you did write "I just read about Volvo S60R, which on paper should compete well against 530i or even 540i. "

    Fortunately, you don't drive a car "on paper", or else we would all be driving Lincoln LS's. There is image to take in to account. And unfortunately for the Volvo, the only head it will turn is when it rams the car ahead of it and causes whiplash.

    The guy who is wearing the Armani suit knows the difference between the one he is wearing and the one the guy next to him is wearing that merely looks like an Armani.

    Live a little. You only live once! (no offense to those "reincarnationists" out there!)
  • toronto_guytoronto_guy Posts: 22
    For what it is worth Shippo, I do think the G35 is certainly a better bang for the buck then the 3 series. Never a big fan of the 3. But, then again not worried about getting a better bang for the buck.
  • ryokenryoken Posts: 291
    I didn't write that. I defended it, but I didn't write it.
    Sorry you don't like their new styling. It definately beats the new 5.
  • toronto_guytoronto_guy Posts: 22
    Like my similar analogue...

    You cannot judge an Armani suit by a picture. I am not sure how you can judge the 5 series by the same.

    I have to admit I have concerns when I go to the dealership and actually see it in person I may be dissapointed.

    That being said...BMW is class and cutting edge for over the last 20 years. I have TRUST in them. I will be the first to admit the new 7 and Z4 threw me when the came out. But you know what.. a year later it is so clear they are both so far ahead in styling, almost too far ahead for their own good. They were right, and I was wrong!

    When Picasso first painted they mocked him, same with Warhol. Einstein was thought to be retarded when he was young.

    People who are not great don't recognize greatness until it is the norm to recognize it as such.

    I have to laugh at these so called "car enthusiasts" and "BMW followers", that don't reserve judgement to they actually see the car, till they sit in the car, till they drive the car.

    It reminds me of the band wagon jumpers that you see routing for sports teams.

    I trust BMW more then any other manufacturer based on my experiences. I literally can't remember the last lemon they built, and I have a long memory.

    I do remember Audis setting on fire in the 80's on their own, and the breaks giving out killing many people. I do remember the tremendous rust problems that Volvo had during the 80's. I do remember the terrible snotty services from both head office and the dealerships when I owned Mercedes. I don't like Acura's, Lexus and Infinity's because they are the same manufacturer as the Accord, Corolla, and Altima. I can't respect that nor get over it. And American cars...need I see more.
  • enkkenenkken Posts: 10
    I echo Shipo’s assessment of Toronto_guy, who displays lack of civility as sign of knowledge.

    Regarding S60R, the fact that you assume all Volvos are, as you say it, “VOLVOS” shows your closed mind and total disregard for newly designed and developed cars which may have technical merits. I will reserve my judgment until I test drive one.

    Personally, I am planning to buy either a 5-series or MB E-series but open to other models for consideration. I like the drivability of the 5-series and the refined luxury of the E-series, but I am willing to ponder a possibility that other manufacturers are catching up. I visit this site to learn about BMWs and their comparison to other models.

    Of course, you’re entitled to your opinion, but your tart opinion with intentional malice has no place in a public forum.
  • toronto_guytoronto_guy Posts: 22
    First off, I want to apologize for getting Volvos confused with "VOLVOs" as you put could I be so blind!

    Since no one here seems to have driven either car (although you might want to ask Shippo he might have in Paris). I am not sure how this form can help you make your decision.

    I do know I am very self confident in my tastes and know that I don't need the reassurance of others to sooth my decisions on buying a car.

    Not sure you can say the same.

    As far as the sounds like it would be perfect for a guy like you!

    p.s. "integrated child seat"...lmao...
  • toronto_guytoronto_guy Posts: 22
    You wrote, "Maybe you are bitter that Autoweek, on of the most prestigious car magazines in the world, agrees with me 100%. The new 5 looks like Dame Edna! LOL"

    Love to see the article do you have the link?

    Dame that a 3rd world country thing?
  • toronto_guytoronto_guy Posts: 22
    "David points out there is only 3 dealerships in GTA, asks KARM to give other 4 SPECIFICALLY"
  • enkkenenkken Posts: 10
    Apology is due but not for what you suggest!

    Learning about a product before purchase is something I consider prudent, which I assume with your inflated ego you would consider indecisive.

    I give readers of this forum some credit that no one with a half brain is going to be influenced to purchase an expensive automobile by something some guy says about something else. Contrary, you seem to assume that is the case.

    I don’t need to hide behind conspicuous consumption. You seem to believe that since you are very self confident, you drive a BMW, which indicates to me you are compensating for something that is lacking.
  • toronto_guytoronto_guy Posts: 22
    Here is what our readers in the forum have to say about the new 5 series:

    "I just read about Volvo S60R, which on paper should compete well against 530i or even 540i."

    "In fact it's hard to find even one volume manufacturer that has not imitated Audi"

    "Not surprising since the Z4's grille and headlights were lifted from a LeSabre"

    "Z4 = Le Sabre"

    You are right Enky..this is a great avenue "to (learn) about a (new 5 series) before purchase is something (which) I consider prudent"


    p.s. any time you want to compare "lackings" you better step back. roflmao
  • karmikankarmikan Posts: 116
    I think you're giving him too much credit enkken. You see self confidence, I see a little brat playing grown-ups. Ignore him and he'll just stop and go away.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    The Dame Edna and "seperated at birth" joke appears in the BWTM section of Autoweek on the print version from April 14. It's also available right here:

    The similarity is comical:

    Why did BMW put eye lids on the headlights, and then flare them out like that?

    Oh, and by the way, check out C&D May 2003, the current issue. The Audi RS6 beats the M5 in a comparo. Interestingly, the Audi gets a perfect "10" for styling. Also, it costs $11,465 more, so I guess by your standard it's MUCH better since you apparently like high prices. Does that make the M5 a ride for sporty plebes? LOL

    Read on and you'll also see the S4 also beat the M3.

    But hey, I'm sure AWD is useless in Canada, it never snows there...

  • r1_97r1_97 Posts: 181
    I enjoyed this discussion until recently. Does Edmonds have a author kill file for its discussion groups?
  • 6_speed6_speed Posts: 37
    Perhaps a new blood to this group will help...

    I didn't like the new 7 when it first came out. Today, I'm OK with it but a 7 is not in my list, not because it's ugly but because it's too big.

    I had a 1990 5 and when the 1997 5 came out, I was a little disappointed. It's not as if I had some other design/body-style in mind but I was disappointed because it looked so different from my 1990 5. A couple of test drives quickly removed any misfeelings! Today, I like both the body styles equally. In fact I own a 1997 5.

    Same goes to the Z3 vs Z4. My wife came this close to buying a Z3 in 1996 when the only engine back then was the 1.9. I didn't quite like the design and with such a weak engine it was easy to walk away. I like the Z4 a whole lot better, both in body-style and engine choices.

    When I look at Audi 4/6/8 I see ONE body-style - not very interesting. Same goes for Mercedes C/E/S.

    But for BMW, I see as many body styles as there are models and yet they are instinctly recognizable as a BMW.

    In short, I like what Chris Bangle is doing.
  • karmikankarmikan Posts: 116
    You make some good points 6_speed. When the Taurus first came out in the mid '80s, I thought that it was the most ugly jelly bean design. A couple of years later I bought an SHO and loved the styling.

    Bangle has a tough job in trying to update a styling cue that is (IMO) stunningly beautiful, particularly in the 5 series. I thought that the Z4 was weird in photos but I am beginning to appreciate the styling the more I see it. The 7 series still looks odd and I'm not at all taken with the E60 photos.

    But think of the "radical" Taurus design and how it became the norm. I guess that only time will tell if Bangle is setting a trend that will seem obvious in the future or if he is creating a family of Azteks.
  • regfootballregfootball Posts: 2,166
    Bangles work

    someone correct me if any of these are not Bangle designs

    z8- awesome car, why are they killing it.
    7 series- are you sure the guy that signed the execution papers didn't sign the wrong on
    new 5 series- pretty nice exterior but I like the moving towards shorter hoods and decks and larger greenhouses
    3 series- new one in the pipeline looks good too.
    z4- aside from the LeSabre front end its excellent.
  • bmwgurubmwguru Posts: 51
    The Z8 is not a Chris Bangle design. It is too clean and reflective of BMW's history. I also hate the fact the Z8 is ending production. It is also, in my humble opinion, one of the best designs to come out in a long, long time.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    6_speed: you really think so? BMW has been almost universally criticized for the "same sausage, different length" styling. That's probably why Chris Bangle is trying so hard.

    The 7 looks different, but once the 5 is out they'll still have similar styling, and probably the next 3 when that comes.

    I can see that he's trying to add some character back (by the way, your 1990 5 gets an A+ from me in styling terms). Just lose the hunch backs, the cars look fat.

    The A6 and A8 look a lot different, especially in person (they had both at the NY Auto Show). The A4 is similar to the A6, though.

  • 6_speed6_speed Posts: 37
    I guess that only time will tell if Bangle is setting a trend that will seem obvious in the future or if he is creating a family of Azteks.

    Please don't mention Azteks and BMWs in the same sentence ;-)

    The Azteks are ugly from any and all angles. There is absolutely zero redeeming value, IMO. Wait, I take that back. If an Aztek rolls over, you can use it as a trash bin, so there... If not for the SUV craze, it would have sold exactly zero.

    The new 7/5/Z4 might be controversial but hardly in the same league as the Azteks. IMO, the 7 has a avant garde presence. Much like the controversial new Lexus SC430 which I like. It has some American styling cues, slightly different from the strictly Teutonic in the previous. I think the 5 will go down the same path as the 7 and Z4 - controversial but a welcome change when compared to Audi and Mercedes.

    BMW has been almost universally criticized for the "same sausage, different length" styling. That's probably why Chris Bangle is trying so hard.

    Yes, that was the case and exactly my comments about Mercedes. Chris has a tough job. He could have easily gone down the 'safe' path like Mercedes did.

    The A6 and A8 look a lot different, especially in person (they had both at the NY Auto Show). The A4 is similar to the A6, though.

    I should add that I was looking at the current A4/6/8 from the front and front 3/4 and it is hard to tell which is which unless you're really up close. Mercedes is like that. BMW was like that. I think the new 5(from the photos) and 7 looks different enough.

    Just lose the hunch backs, the cars look fat.

    You mean the new 5 looks fat because of the hunchback? Looking at it independently from the rest of the car, yes it looks kinda fat (like the Camry). But overall and with a nice set of wheels/tires, it should look fine. In fact, if you compare the back of a 1990 5 vs 1997 5, you can say the same.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 11,077
    Though I'm very appreciative of the most recent return to civil discussion, any further hostile conversation will cause at least the temporary closure of this thread. Reading endless posts with themes like "my car can beat up your car," and "ego challenge 2003" isn't of interest to most members (and most importantly, to me :)).



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  • subie_wrxsubie_wrx Posts: 15
    As a former 3er owner who is saving for a 540 wagon, I can definitely say it won't be an E60. It's true that car styles can grow on you, but some cars are aesthetically (and sometimes timelessly) appealing from the moment you first see them. For me the E46 and E39 fit that category. I have my WRX wagon for ugly - I don't need to spend BMW bucks for it.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I like the Z4, FWIW. There's a design that looks better in person, particularly the rear quarter view. I also like the logo/light on the sides. The front could be better, but I'll take it gladly over the 7 and the 5.

    None of them are Aztec ugly, I agree.

    The "fat" one is the 7, that has the worst hunchback. But the 5 looks a little heavier too, the pillars look thicker, there's less glass it seems.

    I prefer big green houses.

    It may be a trend, though. Dodge showed the Magnum at NY (surprise, their stand drew HUGE crowds), and the Chrsyler 300C. Both also have really thick, beefy pillars. I'd be worried about blind spots, not sure I like that trend.

  • karmikankarmikan Posts: 116
    I used the Aztek as a metaphor (pretty bad one though, it's in-a-league-of-its-own ugly). Actually, if you look up "ugly" in a dictionary it says "Aztek".

    Does anyone know where Bangle worked prior to joining BMW? Are there many examples of his previous projects on the road?
  • bmwgurubmwguru Posts: 51
    I believe he worked for Italdesign. I know he gets at least partial credit for the Fiat Coupe'.
  • I just came back from a trip to France including a visit to Paris and also saw a new 5 in Paris- parked outside of their Assembly Nationale (legislature). Mule or whatever, it was the real thing. It's a good looking vehicle although I don't know why they eliminated the body side molding- without an aftermarket addition of molding, you know its only a matter of time before those panels are full of dings and nicks.
      Shippo, by any chance did you see the vehicle in the same place? Probably some well placed French govt. official getting the perks of office!
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,148
    Another sighting, I love it! The one that I saw was on the "Periferique" a few klicks west of CDG airport. I am going to be back there the weekend of 31-May/1-June, so I will take my digital camera, go by the Assembly National and try for a shot. I will be more than happy to post it if I get it.

    Thanks for the "Heads Up".

    Best Regards,
This discussion has been closed.